This topic contains 24 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by AvatarAvatar M-DYMES 12 years, 5 months ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #33360
    AvatarAvatar
    simonkilday
    Participant

    Who would you rank as the top 10 players in order in the NBA today and why?  Here are my top 10.

    1. LeBron James-Despite his historic meltdown in the Finals it is hard to give this spot to anybody else.  Nobody even comes close to matching his impact game to game on both sides of the floor.  All you have to do is look at the Cavs with and without him to see how much he brings to the table.  Being in the top 2 in scoring four years in a row is pretty impressive for a guy who’s not even considered a great scorer.  Unstoppable penetrator, improving 3 point shooter, and great at getting to the line.  Needs to tighten up midrange game and develop a post game.  Fantastic playmaker, he sees the whole floor and delivers the ball accurately and on time, and often in spectactular fashion.  To average 30 points and almost 9 assists like he did his last year in Cleveland is unheard of in today’s game.  All that being said, his defense might be the strongest part of his game right now.  He put the shackles on Derrick Rose and Paul Pierce in the playoffs.  Quick enough to guard points and strong enough to guard 5’s.  Most versatile defender since Pippen, and arguably moreso because of his bulk.  If he could avoid mentally collapsing for entire playoff series’s, he would already be in the top 10 all time.  The most gifted basketball player ever, will continue to accumulate numbers and accolades at a staggering pace.

    2. Dwight Howard-The best center in the game almost by default.  His offense improved by leaps and bounds this past year, thrusting him from a top 10 player into contention for the #1 spot.  His defense continues to be nothing short of sensational.  Probably the most valuable player to his team at this point, the Magic would be bottom feeders sans him.  The Magic have almost no one on their team who can defend, yet they ranked in the top 5 in defense the last couple years.  This is because nobody gets anything easy in the paint with Howard back there.  His presence on offenes frees up everyone else for open 3’s.  Still foul prone, and can still improve offensively with a more reliable jumper and a better feel for the defense.  His moves improved this past year, but he still doesn’t read his defender very well. 

    3. Chris Paul-Very similar to Dwight Howard in that he carries a small market team with a lousy supporting cast, and on the verge of free agency.  Has everything you want in a point guard; shooting ability, maximizes everyone else’s talents, a pest on defense, tough, competitive, clutch, and a leader.  The best pure point guard in the last 20 years (gets the edge over Kidd because of shooting, Nash because of defense).  Assist to turnover ratio borders on insanity for someone who handles the ball every possession.  Probably the most underappreciated superstar today.  Absolutely incredible at finding open space in crowded places, whether for a shot or a dish.  In my opinion, the best "pound for pound" player in the NBA.

    4. Dwyane Wade-Probably the third best two guard in the last 35 years (after Jordan and Kobe).  His 06 Finals evisceration of Dallas was the most possessed I’ve ever seen a basketball player.  Underrated playmaker, his assist numbers were extremely high for a two even though they took a dip with LeBron on board.  Sometimes takes plays off on D, but has shut down capability and rises to the occasion on that end.  Extremely proficient penetrating, especially going left, and has a deadly Euro step that you can’t stop even when you know its coming.  Showed great unselfishness in deferring to LeBron at times, I thought the way they avoided an alpha dog fiasco was admirable.  However, probably not the best move for either of their careers to join forces, their games really don’t complement each other.

    5. Dirk Nowtizki-While everyone acts like winning a title vaulted him to this status, he has been great for a long time, the title was just the icing on the cake.  To be the centerpiece of 11 straight 50 win teams is a testament to consistency.  Had the best supporting cast of his career, and Carlisle was genius in the way he used Dirk in his system.  That being said, Dirk had to execute, and he did.  The Mavs offense was predicated on Dirk being unstoppable one-one-one, which he was.  He is not the greatest playmaker, but knew exactly when the double was coming and gave it up early so that the rest of the Mavs could play 4-on-3.  When left alone, the most unguardable player in the league today.  Below average defensively, and his rebounding has declined.  But if I had one possession to win a game, there’s nobody I’d rather have on my team than Dirk.  He will either get a great shot, get fouled, or give it up so someone else can get a great shot. 

    6. Kobe Bryant-People may be irtate with me that I left Kobe out of the top 5.  Here’s why.  He is finally starting to show a little bit of age.  His decline, while a slow process, I believe started last year.  No longer does it every game, and Phil had to cut his minutes.  Is a bit overrated defensively; was great on that end once upon a time, but has lost a step, and doesn’t guard the best player on the other team.  His first team selection on defense was more of a reputation pick.  Still has a lethal post game and pull up J, and is maybe the most competitive and dedicated player in the league.  Scores in almost every way imaginable.  His title window has not closed by any means, but it is starting to close.  He’s been at such a high level for an extremely long periodo of time, but even he can’t do it forever.

    7. Kevin Durant-The most gifted all around scorer in the league, and still improving.  I saw him play in high school, and I knew right then and there he was going to be great.  It was absolutely comical to me that there was a debate between him and Greg Oden, and even if Oden was healthy, it would still look ridiculous in hindsight.  At 6-10 with a 7-5 wingspan, his arsenal is loaded.  3 pointers, mid range, post up, pull up, floaters, isolation, dribble moves, off ball, highlight dunks, he does all of these extremely well.  Isn’t great on defense yet, but is showing improvement.  LeBron was not great on defense early on, and now he is the best in the league at his position.  Not a great playmaker, but not selfish either.  He could eventually assume the kind of role Dirk did last year, but his repotoire is more complete.  Remarkably humble and unassuming, committed to the franchise that drafted him, and has an unrelenting desire to improve.  Still needs to learn to take a game by the horns, and understand some of the intracacies better, i.e coming off screens.

    8. Derrick Rose-Not often does an MVP rank this low, and this is no slight to Derrick Rose.  Like Durant, is very humble and is all about his business on the court.  Combines shiftiness with a Ferrari-like burst.  Incredible at finishing drives at the rim.  He contorts and controls his body in mid air better than anybody except Jordan in his heyday.  Explosive leaper, not afraid of contact, and plays the game with a quiet confidence.  Is a very good play maker, but not great yet and still doesn’t really grasp the point guard position, which is why I would take Paul over him.  Still looks to score before setting up his teammates.  His MVP can be attributed to everyone except Howard not having a particularly good year by their standards, and Howard playing on a lousy team.

    9. Carmelo Anthony-The top 8 guys are the only guys I would consider "franchise" players at this point.  The remaining guys fall into the next tier, which is headed by Anthony.  A lethal scorer.  You can see fear in defenders’ eyes when they match up with him.  He does everything quickly. His first step is quick, his release is quick, his second jump is quick.  The only thing he doesn’t do quickly is get rid of the ball.  Tends to hold it too long, needs to take a page out of Dirk’s book.  Shot selection is also questionable.  Playmaking is marginal, defense leaves a lot to be desired.  I love Melo’s game, I love watching him, but in my heartest of hearts, I don’t think you’re winning a championship if he is your best player.

    10.  Deron Williams-Has fallen off the radar a little bit with his trade to New Jersey and now his defection to Turkey.  He is the quintessential scoring/playmaking point guard.  Straddles that line better than anybody except Paul right now.  Constantly in the neighborhood of 20 points and 10 assists.  He is big for a point guard, strong, and quick.  Not in the Derrick Rose neighborhood athletically, but still way above average for a point.  Shoots the three well, gets to the rim, the whole nine.  There’s been questions about his attitude with the Jerry Sloan situation in Utah, and with his decision to go to Turkey, nobody really knows what to make of his situation.  Struggled with a wrist injury last year which hindered his shooting.  When healthy and focused, however, he runs an offense as well as anybody.

    0
  • #603486
    AvatarAvatar
    RUDEBOY_
    Participant

    I have to disagree with you saying Carmelo isnt a Franchise player..He had Denver in Consecutive playoff appearances after he got there….And he along with Durant and Kobe are the 3 most offensively skilled players in the league..I’m not saying they’re the 3 best players in the nba..I’m saying on the offensive end ,they have no weakness…

    If Oden had never got hurt.And had averaged 18pts/12rbs/3blks for 3 years..He would have a much deeper impact on a game then Durant scoring 30 a night…

    I wouldnt have Dwight as the 2nd best player in the nba..But i think he and Lebron are the only 2 players in the league that if you put them on any team..That team will be a serious contender for the finals…….

    0
  • #603488
    AvatarAvatar
    MJBrown
    Participant

    1) Lebron James — Not a winner yet, but is the most dominant player in the league right now

    2) Dwight Howard — He’s one consistent post move away from being the best player in the league

    3) Kobe Bryant — 2 years ago, he was still winning the Kobe vs LeBron conversation. He’s still the most SKILLED player in the league and there is noone I’d rather have with the ball in the 4th quarter.

    4) Kevin Durant — When defense becomes important to him, he’ll be in the arguement at the top of the chart

    5) Dwyane Wade — He’s gotta be in the top five and could be ranked higher, but I still think that the 4 guys ahead of him have earned their spots.

    6) Derrick Rose — I can’t wait to see 5 years from now. We could be talking about the best pg since Magic Johnson. He is THAT good. His MVP was well deserved and its scary to think he’s still getting better.

    7) Dirk Nowitzki — People call him overrated now just because he’s won a ring. Isn’t that kind of the goal though? When you lead your team to a championship and you become a winner, I believe that automatically your value increases as a player. He’s earned his top 10 spot in this league

    8) Chris Paul — Its crazy to think that his team made the playoffs with the roster that they had. Paul is a great leader, but I do think that Derrick Rose has earned the right to be called the best PG in the game right now.

    9) Carmelo Anthony — His stats probably won’t be the same playing beside someone else who needs the same number of touches that he does. He’s so offensively gifted though that regardless of his stats, he’s a top 10 player in the league.

    10) Deron Williams — I think the top 9 is pretty much a given. At this spot there are a few different people that you could throw in. I’m not ready to put a first year player in the top 10, even though some will be tempted to call Blake Giffin a king this early in his career. Pau Gasol just isn’t consistent enough, Amare doesn’t defend or rebound and Westbrook turns the ball over at the point too much. I think that the top tier of players ends at this point, but of all of the guys not yet on the list, I think Deron Williams contributes the most at the position that he plays.

    0
  • #603489
    AvatarAvatar
    simonkilday
    Participant

    Rudeboy, I think we have different criteria for a franchise player.  Carmelo can score a lot points, sell a lot of jerseys, and put butts in the seats.  But is he capable of carrying a team to a title?  I say no, and that is what I define as a franchise player.  I believe that the Knicks will not sniff the Finals with the team they have right now.  I agree with you that his offensive skill is off the charts, but I wouldn’t put him in the same tier with the top 8 that i mentioned.

    Oden, even if he was healthy, wouldn’t put up the kind of numbers you mentioned.  He’d be closer to a 12/10/2 guy, and his career trajectory would be closer to Tyson Chandler than Dwight Howard.  Guys like that are valuable to a team, but worth the #1 pick when Durant is on the board?  No.

    0
  • #603493
    AvatarAvatar
    mikeyvthedon
    Participant

    Dude, I congratulate you if you saw no debate at all between Oden and Durant. You win. But, to say that Oden would be closer to 12/10/2, if healthy, seems incredibly off. I guess he has yet to ever really be truly healthy, but when he was, you were seeing signs of him being a dominant post defender and maybe the toughest guy in the league to keep off of the boards. Honestly, if Greg plays about half the game, you could mark him down for a double double. I realize that Kevin was about as tall and had a longer wingspan (shorter standing reach, but he is long as hell). But, here is what Kevin lacked (still lacks now), the 60 pounds (at least) of raw strength that makes Greg Oden a Center and Kevin Durant a wing player.

    Kevin Durant is incredibly smooth, and while I have never necessarily bought into Rudeboy’s repeated theory of his 30 per game being less valuable than Oden averaging 18 and 12, I am guessing it would at least possibly be up for debate. Dwight Howard was considered by most a top 5 player by many in 2009-10 for averaging 18/13/2.8, so if Oden were healthy and the Blazers were winning, than it could be up for discussion.

    Here is the deal though, people who claim that selecting Durant over Oden should have been a no-brainer are completely full of it if they said they knew he was going to be injury prone before the draft. Greg had injured his wrist before the draft, and the knee problems only came up a month afterward. Nonetheless, dude checked out fine pre-draft. To the scouts that claimed he had suffered injuries and everyone knew about it, they sure did a good job keeping that under wraps until YEARS later. Hindsight means using the future to look at the past. If you knew Greg Oden would be a "bust", I think that is all well and good. He obviously seems like a bad pick in current times. But, he has NEVER gotten a chance to actually show what he can do fully. For all you could have known in June of 2007, Greg Oden could be a franchise Center challenging Dwight Howard. I find it hard to believe that their was "no doubt in anyones mind" at the time between the two. I even had doubts about Greg, but having a Center like him can do great things for a team that was building around a really solid, young core.

    To say that Greg, if he were healthy, would be averaging 12/10/2, would be based basically on him not being healthy. That has been the major issue, it has been the reason that he has not put up huge numbers. Foul trouble aside, when he went down in 2009, he was averaging 11, 8.5 and 2.3 in 24 minutes per game. So, close to a double double in half a game. He also did this to Joakim Noah:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200911230POR.html

    Yep, 24/12/2 in less than 27 minutes against someone everyone raves about for his post defense. Remember Greg throwing he and Al Horford around like rag dolls during the 2007 NCAA Championship? Guess not, but it happened. Kevin Durant lost by 20 to USC. He had a tremendous freshman year, and he has turned out to be the better player by light years at this point in time. But, at the time, to say you knew that he would be this and Greg Oden would be averaging 12 and 10, I do not think that tells the whole story, because, if healthy, I think Greg would be averaging significantly more than that.

    I do not think Rudeboys numbers would be out of the question at all. Would he be better than Kevin Durant? Maybe not. But, I am guessing if the Blazers had a healthy Greg Oden, they would be in a different spectrum as far as being able to compete for a title. I also think that guys like Kendrick Perkins and Serge Ibaka would more than likely get steamrolled in a similar fashion to what happened when they played Tyson Chandler. By the way, seeing that Greg, with his extra muscle and athleticism (he still has it, even if people doubt it), could he not have been even more of a problem for OKC than Tyson Chandler? I certainly think he could have been, and that certainly shows the possible value having a healthy Greg Oden would be on your team.

    Otherwise, I tend to think your list is decent. I personally have questions about Dwight Howard being #2 and still think the top 3 are LeBron, Kobe and Wade. Kobe may have taken a step back, but that guy still has another couple years left of being absolutely dominant if their is a season. Like Rudeboy is saying, I think that maybe Dwight is the second guy you might want to build a team around from scratch behind LeBron, but I think that Wade and Kobe are still flat out better all-around players. I wrote about it on that "D-Rose getting no love thread" if you want to see my reasoning. I think your top 10 is spot on, but some of the reasons and the order would be different for me. I honestly would have Durant higher, for many of the reasons you are pointing out. My biggest thing with him, still, is the issue of strength and whether he will not get pushed around. For everyone harping on LeBron’s post game and his lack of offensive creativity, Durant may have more creativity, but he can be outmuscled and has less of a post game than even LeBron.

     

    0
  • #603498
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Speaking of Greg Oden, I watched him work out (nothing serious) not too long ago in Indianapolis and he’s moving well. He looks great and you’d never think he’s struggled with injuries the way he has. I asked him how he was feeling and he nodded his head with approval. He was positive, happy and had a little swagger. All good signs.

    He’s leaned up, while still keeping bulk in his chest and arms. His legs are built like tree trunks. This dude is one crazy ass physical specimen. He’s listed at 7′ 0", but he was working out with another seven footer, and Oden looked damn near an inch taller.

    And @simonkilday

    I liked your list a lot. Great explanations as well. I have a couple of comments though.

    – I agree with you about Carmelo Anthony. Great scorer, but not a legit franchise player.

    – I think Chris Paul’s top five status depends on his knee, etc.

    – Kobe is aging, but let’s not forget he played with knee issues last season. Kobe’s been playing nonstop for the last several seasons and this is the first summer he’s gotten serious rest. He had the knee treatment earlier this summer and is supposedly feeling better than he has in a long time. He’ll play better this season than he did last season.

    0
  • #603499
    AvatarAvatar
    Deezy
    Participant

    Kobe IS aging, but ranking him at 6? Are you serious? Over Dirk who has never made an all defensive team his whole life? Or even Dwight who’s offense is nowhere near the level of a Durant or a Wade? You’re forgetting Kobe played 3 straight seasons of finals appearances, ran summer camps/olympics/exhibition games overseas. Add to the fact he played through a knee almost as bad as Brandon Roy’s, a couple busted fingers, AND the man is 33. His minutes were CUT, AND he didn’t practice with the team because of those injuries and fatigue. The fact he still put up 25/5/5 is ridiculous. I’m not even a Laker fan and I acknowledge that.

    0
  • #603506
    AvatarAvatar
    simonkilday
    Participant

    All those reasons you mentioned are why I ranked Kobe where I did.  He’s got a lot of miles on him, and his best days are clearly behind him.  It is admirable what he has been putting himself through with the injuries and the workload, but the five guys ahead of him at this point have more of an impact on the outcome of the game night in and night out, which is what my list is based on.  It is who is the most impactful player right now, today, not of the last 3 years, 5 years, or 10 years.

    Mikey V, you made a lot of good points about Oden.  He did show flashes of becoming everything you said; dominant defender, relentless rebounder, etc.  Then again, so did Michael Olowakandi.  I’m not saying that he would flop like Olowakandi did if he was healthy, but there have been plenty of 7 foot run jump athletes to come through the NBA.  I never really saw what it was that seperated Oden.  I thought he could be a very impactful center, a la Chandler, but by no means a franchise player.  He had a great game in the 07 Final, but I didn’t see him really dominate the college level game in and game out, which was perplexing given what pundits were saying about him.

    Meanwhile, Kevin Durant’s potential was seemingly lost in all the Oden hype.  I saw him play in a game at Coolidge High School in D.C. when he was at Montrose, and jumped on the bandwagon after the first quarter was over.  The guy was 6’10 with such an advanced skill set, unlike projects such as Darius Miles.  He was shooting deep 3s with ease, bringing the ball up the court, flying in for dunks, and keeping his team hanging around against a much more talented Oak Hill squad.  Then, he goes to Texas and averages 26 and 12 as an 18 year old freshman and wins every National Player of the Year award out there.  He was so dominant as a freshman it looked like he playing a different game than everyone else on the court.  Yet everyone was more enthralled with Oden, and I just couldn’t understand it.  By age 22, Durant two scoring titles and a rookie of the year trophy.  The only guy who ever became a superstar faster was LeBron.

    As far as Dwight goes, I agree he is not the 2nd best all around player in the league.  But that’s not necessarily how I based my list.  Game to game, I believe his impact on the game is greater than anybody other than LeBron, hence his ranking. 

    0
  • #603515
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Greg Oden is a Bill Russell type of player. You can’t determine his impact based on stats, etc. You just can’t. He could give a sh*t about stats.

    I watched him all throughout highschool and he NEVER cared about scoring 40 points and grabbing 30 rebounds. All he cared about was WINNING and that’s all he did his whole life. He was one of those players who did what was needed. He didn’t care about showboating. He’d get the block and tip it in bounds, instead of throwing it into the stands. He just did whatever it took to win. That’s the type of player he was and still is.

    Oden’s only problem was that he was TOO unselfish. He’d sit in the back and let his teammates shine. When he won Mr. Basketball of Indiana (should’ve won it for three straight years), he told reporters Mike Conley Jr. should’ve won it. He would’ve no doubt been a franchise center and developed into a player that dominated both ends of the floor. Despite the fact his post moves were a work in progress, he had underrated hands and touch around the rim. Very good feet. And he was an absolutely power house when he caught the ball under the rim. And if you fouled him, he’d make over 70%.

    IF not for the injuries, Oden would be challenging Dwight as the best center in the league right now. No, he’d never put up points like Durant, BUT he’d be more valuable to a team because centers who dominate the paint at both ends WIN TITLES.

     

    0
  • #603517
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant
     
    I agree with what you said about Kobe, but his knee isn’t anywhere near as bad as Roy’s lol. Kobe is just bone on bone in his kneecap. That’ll slow you down some, but not end your career. Roy’s knees are thigh bone against shin bone. He lacks a meniscus in either knee, which means his grinding cartilage. His situation is career ending.
    0
  • #603525
    AvatarAvatar
    mikeyvthedon
    Participant

    Really? I mean, REALLY? That is the comparison that comes to mind? A guy with no real concept of what basketball was, who was not a great post defender or rebounder. Dude, I think your recollection, or perception, is slightly off. Greg Oden, the guy who did not "dominate the college game" was a first team All-American. He averaged 15.7/9.6/3.3 as a freshman playing most of the season with one hand. He shot over 60% from the field and line, plus won Big Ten Player of the Year. Plus, it is not like the guy was new to the game. He had an ability and IQ that Olowokandi clearly was missing and could not be taught.

    Man, his team went to the NCAA Championship. They won 22 games in a row. He had maybe the best shot blocking instincts I have ever seen. He is athletic, big and before he was hurt in 2009-10, he was shooting 60% from the field and 76.6% from the line. The guy throws people like Carlos Boozer and Nene, two exceptionally strong players, around like they are rag dolls. He apparently has a vendetta against Joakim Noah.

    By the way, name me all of these athletic 7 footers like Greg Oden. Do they grow on trees? Was Hasheem Thabeet like Greg Oden? I would go with a, hell no. I mean, glad you may have seen something, but if you are going to go hypothetical with Greg Oden, or said you saw something, than what Greg has done thus far leaves me little doubt that he would be more than an Olowokandi or a Chandler.

    Michael Olowokandi played for Pacific University, was from the UK and new to the game and lead a team that went 23-10, losing in the first round of the NIT. No difference from Greg Oden, you say? The guy’s best season was in 2002-03 in the NBA. He played 36 games, averaging 38 mpg, 12.3 ppg, 7.5 rpg and 2.2 bpg. Plus, he shot a whopping 43% from the field! Sweet. So, Greg Oden, in 24 minutes, as I said, averaged 11, 8.5 and 2.3. Not to mention, Greg was 22 at the time of this, whereas Michael Olowokandi was 27. So, just trying to put things in perspective. Say what you will about Greg Oden, but Olowokandi, he would not be. Also, he appears to be a better offensive option than Tyson Chandler, not to mention a stronger player. Tyson helped a team win a championship though, so, not saying that guy is a slouch. He killed every match-up he went up against, but I am guessing Greg would be an interesting one if at full health.

    Dude, Kevin Durant was awesome. But, he had a pretty nice team and quite frankly, they underachieved. He had a lottery pick PG as well, though his team lacked bigs, hence Kevin getting an obscene amount of rebounds. Now, I realize you saw him at a young age and saw what a great player he was, but Greg Oden was also awesome man. I saw them both play, and it looked like Greg Oden could be a guy you want in the middle for a title contending team. To win a championship, factors such as defense and rebounding are vital. You more sound like someone who is saying this from hindsight rather than from the standpoint of that time. Because at that time, Greg Oden looked like an absolute stud. Durant has been a lot better than I personally thought he would be, but you still rank a guy like Dwight Howard ahead of him. Well, many people thought Greg Oden could be that guy. If you saw him in 2007, and did not have a crystal ball of injury prediction, you pretty much thought along the same lines. Seems like you thought different, good stuff, but I think you probably even thought to yourself that Greg Oden could be a beast. In hindsight, it is ridiculous. But, with foresight, it was not. It is not as much a mental thing with Greg as a physical thing, which unfortunately came after he was drafted. So, congrats on Durant, but there was a debate between he and Oden for a reason. 

    0
  • #603528
    AvatarAvatar
    ProudGrandpa
    Participant

    1) Peja Stojakovic

    2) Hedo Turkoglu

    3) Pau Gasol

    4) Channing Frye

    5) Troy Murphy

    6) Rashard Lewis

    7) Chase Budinger

    8) Bostjon Nachbar

    9) Raef Lafrentz

    10) Dirk Nowitzki

    0
  • #603560
    AvatarAvatar
    aamir543
    Participant

    About Oden, I loved him in college, being a young kid that was my first season watching college ball, and Oden definately made it more interesting to watch. But there was something about Durant that made you say, "This kid can ball!" I remember watching some games of his at Texas, where at somepoint in the fourth, he’d look for his teamates, and defer a bit. Then he would realize that he needs to do it himself, hits a couple threes, and wins the game.

    But there was always something about Oden that scared me. I remember watching games at Ohio St. where he might have looked good, but his motor always worried me. He just stood around, and waited for alley oops and put-backs.

    0
  • #603577
    AvatarAvatar
    simonkilday
    Participant

    I wasn’t sayin that Oden’s career was gonna be like Olowakandi’s. I was just never convinced that he was the type of player to go #1 overall in any draft, especially one with a guy like Durant in it. People tend to think for some reason that you always take a big over a wing player, but in reality it has more to do with the individuals and no necessarily what positions they play. In that situation it seemed like Oden was a project who may or may not develop into a franchise player (I said no) while Durant was a mortal lock to be a bona fide go to player. Oden played on a deep, talented Ohio state squad that year that featured another top 5 pick, and throughout most of the tournament it seemed like Conley was the one carrying the load. 15 and 9 to me is far from dominant, I don’t know what dominant is to you, but if were talking about a potetial franchise center then I want to see him have the mean streak to crush physically overmatched opponents, which is what concerns me about Andre Drummond. And yes I did take Howard at this poor over Durant, but that could change in a month. Especially considering Durant is ascending while Howard is near his prime.

    0
  • #603594
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    @aamir543

    About Oden’s motor… He had a good, not great motor, but  he showed flashes of having a great motor. Like when he got that block vs Tennessee in the tournament to save the game. Or when he tried to dunk on somebody from damn near the free-throw line. And in the title game vs Florida, he dominated both Noah and Horford. We all know the type of energy both Noah and Horford play with and they both said Oden was a monster and the best big they both ever played.

    Oden’s motor and mean streak was something he had to improve and I thought he was showing that in the NBA, especially before he got injured.

    0
  • #603598
    AvatarAvatar
    mikeyvthedon
    Participant

    Dude, it is all well and good to say you would have drafted Durant #1 in 2007. You probably would look like a genius. But, again, the guy looked like a total beast. If he plays again, an if, but a possibility, he will more than likely be one of the better Centers in the league. He will be a huge match-up problem. People on this board (not saying you, but it has been a long standing tradition), love to say that he is just average and that he will never be more than a back-up. But, I believe if Oden plays, they will swallow their words. He is still only 23. He has a combination of size and athleticism no one else in the league outside of Dwight Howard possesses at the Center position.

    You say he did not dominate, but he did. Yes, those numbers are not technically dominant, I suppose, but remember that he was on a guard oriented team where he was playing a role as a defender and rebounder. That team went 35-4 (losing one game without Greg to UNC). Yes, he played with Mike Conley, but who was the teams leading scorer? This from a guy who was not getting a lot of set plays for him. He was not going to be Shaq, but he was a possible defensive anchor on a championship team.

    I will say, if a team has a healthy Greg Oden for a couple years, that team could be incredibly dangerous. Especially given the current core of the Blazers, who already were taking the Mavericks to 6 games. If they had a true Center in their going up against Tyson Chandler, rather than an over the hill Marcus Camby and playing small ball with LaMarcus in the middle, they could do big things. Portland won their championship in 1977 with a Center who did not lead their team in scoring. He was however, an amazing defender and rebounder, who could literally dominate a game without scoring. Bill Walton, for two years, was the best player in basketball. He played 65 games in the regular season when Portland won the title and 58 games the next year, when Portland went 50-8 in those games. They more than likely would have repeated had he been healthy, but nonetheless Walton won MVP.

    Now, to say Greg Oden was as dominant as Bill Walton is not at all true. But, I think having a guy like Oden on your team, especially a team as solid as Portland, he can do great things. Odds are, if Portland had a guy like Kevin Durant, they would be a great team as well. But, they would be a great team without that imposing big man that could take them to the next step, more than likely. Portland has a chance to have that. Yes, the Thunder had Kendrick Perkins, but Serge Ibaka is still not Kevin Garnett. If Portland plays the Thunder, with Greg Oden and LaMarcus Aldridge matching up against those two guys, I really like Portland’s odds. It is a big if, but it is well worth the risk.

    I mean, Patrick Ewing was called the most dominant college player out there because he was a defensive anchor and his teams won games. Know what Ewing averaged for his 4 year college career? 15.3/9.2/3.4. Know what he averaged as a freshman? 12.7/7.5/3.2. Yet, he was considered dominant, because he was an athletic defensive anchor type player whose teams won games. Greg Oden, honestly, was around the same lines. You may think otherwise, but averaging huge numbers like Durant did does not necessarily make you dominant. Especially considering that Michael Beasley put up damn similar numbers the next year and lead the nation in rebounding. Are either he or Kevin Durant better rebounders than Greg Oden? Well, if he does indeed get healthy, you will see that it is not even close. Durant turned out to be the better player, but the impact a Greg Oden could make was why he was drafted first. Hindsight may make you say otherwise, and you may have believed it at the time as well, but he had all of the makings of a franchise Center. That is why he went first in the draft, and that is why he could even still make an impact if he does return.

    0
  • #603603
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    That’s a good point about Oden at Ohio State. Those guards were chuckers.

    I remember Oden being pissed because they didn’t give him enough touches on offense and he felt they were just using him to protect the basket, rebound and get dunks.

    Oden liked and respected Thad Matta, but he wasn’t very happy with the way he was running the offense.

    0
  • #603610
    AvatarAvatar
    mikeyvthedon
    Participant

    Man, Mike Conley was a beast in that Xavier game that Greg fouled out of early, so I give him props. But, they did not know how to get the dude the ball. He is a guy who is going to play with his back to the basket, they just need to spread the floor and work the ball around. Their guard rotation was great, but they were damn chuckers. He and Mike were boys and all, but I was dying to see Greg get a chance to play with a real pass first PG like Andre Miller. Thought that would have done wonders.

    Durant was a beast in college, but I said that they had to be sure he was a top 5 player in the league if they drafted him. He turned out to be exactly that, or at least will be, but at the time, their were legit concerns. The exact same things you say about Carmelo Anthony not being a franchise player, I felt could apply to Durant. His mental attitude is obviously a factor that I should have probably taken more into consideration, but with everything he did at Texas, they still lost 10 games and got blown out in the NCAA tournament. I guess his team was young, but they had a lot of talent as well, a PG who went 9th the next year and would have more than likely been lotto the year Durant left as well.

    The Oden and Durant debate was real, and I know their were many people on the Durant side of the equation. I for one believed that Durant may indeed not become the best player in the league, and I still have my doubts. The guy has always been "the guy" on whatever team he has been on, but that has not always translated into wins. The Thunder built a team the right way, as they completely destroyed and rebuilt around a player. The Blazers were doing the exact same thing, but have been killed by injuries. Still, with as well as Durant has done, and for how much people do love him, I am still not completely sure he is "the guy". He needs a team around him, and as much as people say that Russell Westbrook was killing him in the play-offs, I think Durant was being killed by physical defense. The guy is a very rare physical specimen, but so was Greg Oden. I clearly felt that Greg had what it took to be dominant, and he showed it in college. Some may have felt he got acclaim and awards off of his name, but the guy was a force.

    0
  • #603619
    AvatarAvatar
    simonkilday
    Participant

    Mikey V, you made some really good points in your last two posts considering Patrick Ewing and Michael Beasley.  I’ll try to expound on both of those.

    With regards to Ewing, I never saw him play in college, but he obviously was the key piece of a team that went to three final fours and won a championship.  Conspiracy theorists have stated that David Stern rigged the lottery so he could go to New York, so apparently he was highly valued.  I wasn’t around to hear what the narrative was on Ewing coming out of college, but I watched him in the pros and he possessed a feathery jump shot and a variety of low and high post moves.  He averaged 20 points as a rookie, so he must’ve had some semblance of an offensive game coming out of college.  I know Oden was only in college for a year and Ewing four, but I never saw any signs from Oden that he was going to be anything more than average on the offensive end.  His jump hook was awkward looking, he lacked great extension on it and never really showed any kind of knowledge on how to create space with his shoulders or his footwork.  This wasn’t a problem for him in college, but I figured in the NBA it was going to hinder him some.  Walton was valuable not only because he controlled the paint on defense, but because Portland ran their offense through him and he always made great decisions and played extremely unselfishly.  He had a great jump hook and turnaround jump shot that he could go to, but he was most effective passing out of the post and made his teammates better from the center position.  Oden lacked any of those type of instincts offensively.  I agree that he could’ve been a huge difference maker on the defensive end, however, and a guy like that is extremely valuable to a team.  That’s why I keep bringing up Tyson Chandler, who arguably was the second most important player on a team that won a championship, so that’s not an insult at all.  But Chandler has a motor that never dies, and like someone said earlier, Oden’s motor was a question mark heading into the draft.  He COULD’VE been really good, sure, but you had were hoping for a lot; that he developed some post moves, that his motor improved, that he would dedicate himself to becoming better.  At #1 in the draft, you’re looking for a sure thing, which is why I was confused as to why both teams and the media seemed to ignore the red flags surrounding Oden at the time he was about to get drafted.

    With Durant, you really didn’t have any of these questions.  The only concern with Durant was that he was so damn skinny, but he was 18 at the time and still physically maturing, and while he will never be bulky, he is certainly strong enough to do what he needs to do.  But everyone who coached with or played with Durant said the same thing; that he was always the first one in the gym and the last one to leave.  And certainly no one questioned his ability to play basketball, he had the complete offensive package even at 18.  To be honest, I predicted Durant would be a superstar, but I didn’t even think he would be this good this early.  I predicted the same kind of success for Michael Beasley after watching him tear through the big 12 in Durant like fashion, but two main factors have contributed to his lack of NBA success.  First, in college he scored a lot of buckets 2 feet from the basket where he would simply establish position, turn and score.  He did have a great jump shot and a fantastic set of hands, but didn’t display the type of perimeter game that Durant did.  He’s really only about 6’8",  so there was no way he was going to replicate that kind of success playing against bigger and stronger NBA defenders.  Second, there had been questions about his attitude and work ethic, and they turned out to be legit.

    0
  • #603624
    AvatarAvatar
    mikeyvthedon
    Participant

    Good point on Bill Walton, I agree that Greg will never be that kind of passer, but his hands are solid. Still, with Patrick, he had 4 years of college. Plus, what you say about Durant physically maturing, well, Greg was 250 days older, so it is not a huge amount of difference in that he was going through the same stages of physical maturation. Greg had never lost and for as many people complaining about his motor, from EVERYTHING I have heard, the guy is a gym rat. I think he works really hard, he just has never been able to show it.

    But, for as mechanical as everyone claimed Greg was on offense, he was shooting 60% and 76% from the field and line before he went down. Now, Patrick Ewing had a shortened season on an awful Knicks team playing a totally different role. Greg came into a situation where the Blazers were already making a play-off push. My theory is, put Greg on a New Jersey or some other wack team devoid of a big man presence, he would have torn it up on the stat sheet. The Ewing conspiracy aside, Patrick Ewing was seen as a Center who was going to potentially be the next Bill Russell. Greg Oden got those comparisons thrown around as well. Patrick has obviously been much more successful, and we can only hope Greg gets to play, but he is still young at the very least. By the way, never remember Tyson having the "non-stop" motor you are bringing up. Plus, Tyson never had the combo of strength and athleticism Greg had. I see where you are coming from, but Tyson was considered a possible #1 pick in his draft. Plus he just helped a team to a championship. Is he a franchise guy? No, but he turned into a guy you were more than happy with to have as a post on a winning team.

    Beasley has a bunch of issues that separate he and Durant, physically and mentally. He is not incredibly athletic and while he is stronger, he does not have top notch speed or agility. The guy was a beast in college, but he was stuck between positions in the NBA. He can score, but he has major issues defensively and has yet to prove he can play winning basketball. Of course Beasley did not have the same overall skill set as Kevin either.

    But, I do not agree that there were no questions about Kevin. Larry Bird is pretty much the only SF that lead his team to multiple championships. Yes, that is generalized, and their have been a lot of great role playing SF’s, but titles in this league tend to be won with a great team that usually has some focus or advantage in the post as far as rebounding and defense. When you have a player who could have potentially been dominant in that area, as well as being able to physically dominate competition on offense, which I still think he more than likely will if and when he returns, than I think you go for it.

    The bottom line was, I personally did not see the same transcendant talent in Kevin Durant that I saw in a LeBron James. For as much as people hate LeBron James and think Durant is either a better player or going to be a better player, I am not so sure. It will all come down to championships in my belief. Durant was the much better pick in hindsight, but I think their were legitimate questions as to who you would rather select at the time, which have yet to be answered in the least due to the physical problems Greg had post draft. Mentally, I know Kevin was strong, but I believe that Greg was a very hard working person as well and is doing all that he can to get back and try to show why he was thought of so highly. I am not trying to change your mind that you always liked Durant better or made a good choice, you did. But, I do not think it was as laughable as you seemed to think it was, and I think that this debate will always rage between having a chance to draft a franchise center or a franchise wing in the same draft. Will happen this year as well, and we will not know the results, but I am guessing that Andre Drummond is picked first. If you have a guy with that kind of athleticism and size, I think you have to take a chance on him, barring unforeseen physical or mental issues. But, my feeling is, Drummond will be REALLY hard to pass up.

    0
  • #603625
    AvatarAvatar
    Andrew1984
    Participant

    (Disclaimer: this list is for the Top 10 players RIGHT NOW. This list DOES NOT encapsulate the entire careers of these players. That is an entirely different argument. These are the Top 10 players I would want on my team as of today, to try to win a championship THIS YEAR, not five or eight or 11 years ago, or for three or five years from now.)

    1. Kevin Durant: I firmly believe he’s the best combination of skill, talent, size, productivity, efficiency, and difficulty to match up with that there is in the league right now. We could argue for hours about it, but in my opinion Russell Westbrook stole an NBA title from him.

    2. Kobe Bryant: He’s still the most refined player in the NBA and the best in the clutch. Still has that "it."

    3. LeBron James: As disappointing as he’s been in critical moments through eight years, his presence alone still guarantees at least a deep run in the playoffs. Not something that can be said for anyone else below him on this list.

    4. Dwight Howard: As many problems as he creates for opposing defenses (and offenses), just because of his position, he’s still too dependent on others to decide to give him the ball. We saw last year how he can be phased out by teammates. It’s not his fault, but it does make him less dominant than the three players mentioned above.

    5. Chris Paul: His ability to involve his teammates and improve an entire offense and an entire teams’ play is uncanny. I’d take him over D-Wade any day of the week because instead of his effect on the rest of his team.

    6. Blake Griffin: He is a championship-caliber player and an incredibly rare combination of strength, size, and skill.

    7. Dirk Nowitzki: What he did in the playoffs last year was awesome, but as stated, this list is for likelihood to do it THIS YEAR. I don’t see that happening again.

    8. Derrick Rose: This kid is absolutely dynamic, I know, but I still think he dribbles too much. He accumulates assists, not in a Magic Johnson, John Stockton, Chris Paul, unselfish sort of way, but more in a, "Oh, I just got stopped by a second defender coming over to help, so I guess I’ll pass it now" sort of way. He’s still one of the best players in the Association, but I don’t think he’s the best guard in the league.

    9. Amare Stoudemire: There just aren’t a lot of post players around that can consistently average in the mid-20s per game. Guaranteed points from the post are so hard to come by. Amare is only 28 but it feels like he’s been around for 15 years. It’s just easier to find production at the guard and wing spots than it is to find in the middle.

    10. Kevin Love: Some may argue with including him over Carmelo Anthony or Dwyane Wade, but those guys aren’t doing things that have literally never been done in the history of the league. Averaging 20 and 15 while shooting 37 percent from 3 and 82 percent from the line is HISTORICAL. There is nothing historical about guys who can just score a lot like ‘Melo and Wade.

    My favorite player is Stephen Curry, and I desperately wanted to find a way to sneak him into my Top 10, but I would’ve been torn apart by every reader here because it would’ve been a stretch. But he’s getting close!

    0
  • #603629
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    LMAO at you not having Dwyane Wade in your top ten, but Kevin Love. Smh. SmDh.

    0
  • #603712
    AvatarAvatar
    Andrew1984
    Participant

    Wade’s accomplishments:

    Win a title with Shaq on your team: been done

    Make it to the Finals with LeBron on your team: been done

    Average 25 points for eight years: been done

    Shoot under 50 percent from the field for your career and average five boards and six assists: been done

    Kevin Love’s 20-15-.37-.82 has never been done

     

    0
  • #603785
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Funny you neglected to mention a few facts about Kevin Love:

    – Led his team to a 17-65 record last season.

    – Timberwolves have 56-190 record since he was drafted.

    – Has lost 2 out of every 3 games his ENTIRE career.

    – Shoots 46 percent from the field for his career, as a power forward. Guess what? Dwyane Wade shoots 49 percent from the field for his career, as a shooting guard.

    Other "fun" information about Kevin Love:

    – He’s a below average finisher around the rim and has no real low post game.

    – You can’t run an offense through him and be a winner.

    – Most of his offensive rebounds are off of his own misses.

    – He played for just stats last season on the worst team in the league.

    – He was benched by Rambis for not moving his feet on defense nor caring about defense.

    – Complained about playing time when he was benched for not playing defense.

    – Has missed hundreds of defensive assignments and rotations during his career.

     

    0
  • #603869
    AvatarAvatar
    M-DYMES
    Participant

    1.  LeBron James – best all around player regardless of how much u may hate him.

    2.   KD- killin it this offseason, already top 5, I think he moves up to 2 when this season or next starts.  If his D becomes elite level (something his length, height, and speed def. give potential for), watch out. 

    3.  Dwight- best defensive player and his O is underrated and improving.  If he develops a J and strengthens his post moves, he has the potential to surpass LBJ.

    4.  Dwayne Wade- Controversial, possibly.  I think he will surpass Kobe, and that may not be statistically due to their situations, but Wade is younger and is the best player on that Heat roster in the clutch.

    5.  Kobe- still dominant, still plays D, still one of the best competitors of all-time.  Clutch.  His efficiency may begin to drop off here as his surrounding cast is starting to fade.  I expect his scoring to increase this season due to that.

    6.  Dirk- If he played elite level D he’d easily be top 5.  He is in him prime right now IMO and he is just as close to unstoppable offensively as possible.  He’s much quicker in the post that people give him credit for.  That spin move is vicious, the fade is disgusting, and his touch is soft as a baby’s ass.

    7.  CP3- His performance in the playoffs reminded me of his true greatness and put him above guys like D-Rose and Melo.  He does it all.  A triple double threat, plays D, a great leader, and still young.  His only fault really is him durability.  But, while healthy, this guy is up there with the elites. 

    8.  D-Rose- The strides he is making are incredible.  The jumper looked greatly improved and with more time to train it should only be even stronger.  He doesn’t have the passing ability of a CP3 or Rondo, but he is an avid scorer, penetrator, and I think he will be one of the better clutch players if he isn’t already.  His D is solid, but not great.  A fan favorite, league-wide.

    9.  Melo- Seems like the forgotten one of the trio of the 03 draft at times, interesting considering his movement to an even bigger market.  Melo is a top 3 scorer, a great rebounder, and a unbelievable post player.  But D is holding him back.  Its getting better, but still not where it needs to be to move him ahead of these other players.

    10.  Blake Griffin- Tough here between a few guys.  Obviously D-Will was in consideration here as well, but recently he looked a bit out of shape and that may be just enough to allow me to put Griffin above him.  Blake does it all.  His D in the post does need a bit of improvement, but he is a monster on the boards, great hustle player, solid passer, and has a pretty stroke from mid range.  He’s so young he should only continue to improve, as well as the Clips as a whole. 

    0

You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login