This topic contains 24 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by AvatarAvatar Lotto Stud 12 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #32226
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    Lotto Stud
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    Why is it that a guy will jump out the gym in HS/College, but once he reaches the NBA he mysteriously loses his bounce? C’mon now I’m really not buying what these 1st-3rd year guys are selling unless they really have nagging leg problems. There is no way you lose out on your vert like that when you are still under 25 years of age. It was mentioned a couple weeks ago that Rose & Wall had made it clear that their verts are not the same as it used to be. Well I can believe it for Wall in some cases, because he does not elevate at all like he did in HS/College, but for Rose I am definitely not buying what he is selling. In all actuality I think some guys don’t feel as they would have to go all out to make highlight reels anymore so that’s when the "laziness" comes in to play with losing a step on a vert. You don’t use it you lose it.

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  • #581540
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    Anton123
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    Rose looks no less explosive, I mean the defense is better, so he might not be able to showcase it as often, but he might be the most athletic guard in the NBA, not much to complain about. 

    John Wall had foot problems last season so he couldn’t really showcase his jumping ability as well, we’ll see what he can do next season

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  • #581304
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    Anton123
    Participant

    Rose looks no less explosive, I mean the defense is better, so he might not be able to showcase it as often, but he might be the most athletic guard in the NBA, not much to complain about. 

    John Wall had foot problems last season so he couldn’t really showcase his jumping ability as well, we’ll see what he can do next season

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  • #581542
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    WizardofOz
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    I definitely don’t buy Rose satying it. Like the day after he said it, he had that big dunk vs. the Knicks. He didn’t go all out on fast-break dunks like he used to, but he looks just as explosive IMO.

    Wall said but he said he was something like 10-15pounds overweight at one point last season and was eating nothing but junk food….add in the foot injury and there was a large stretch of last season that just didnt look right. Just look at his footage from the Melo Center a few days ago.

    He still got bounce. And I think his growth spurt has a lot to do with his less than expected bounce. He is also had some some knee issues which lead some people to question his toughness. As his body settles down the bounce will return.

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  • #581306
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    WizardofOz
    Participant

    I definitely don’t buy Rose satying it. Like the day after he said it, he had that big dunk vs. the Knicks. He didn’t go all out on fast-break dunks like he used to, but he looks just as explosive IMO.

    Wall said but he said he was something like 10-15pounds overweight at one point last season and was eating nothing but junk food….add in the foot injury and there was a large stretch of last season that just didnt look right. Just look at his footage from the Melo Center a few days ago.

    He still got bounce. And I think his growth spurt has a lot to do with his less than expected bounce. He is also had some some knee issues which lead some people to question his toughness. As his body settles down the bounce will return.

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  • #581552
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    yaboymal
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    Look at this explosiveness by John Wall..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjV-tWrZJRQ

    If you watch the video he definitley looks more explosive back then..but really theres nothing to worry about he was hurt alot last season as soon as he is fully healthy and playing at his proper playing weight we will see alot more of what you just saw, especially that block that was freakish

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  • #581316
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    yaboymal
    Participant

    Look at this explosiveness by John Wall..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjV-tWrZJRQ

    If you watch the video he definitley looks more explosive back then..but really theres nothing to worry about he was hurt alot last season as soon as he is fully healthy and playing at his proper playing weight we will see alot more of what you just saw, especially that block that was freakish

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  • #581568
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    McDunkin

    Added muscle

    Not as easy to do against NBA level players

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  • #581331
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    McDunkin

    Added muscle

    Not as easy to do against NBA level players

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  • #581570
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    iguapops420
    Participant

     MIdseason growth spurt was the cause for Wall’s issues IMO. His knees and foot suffered. I figure he’ll get it all back by season’s start.

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  • #581334
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    iguapops420
    Participant

     MIdseason growth spurt was the cause for Wall’s issues IMO. His knees and foot suffered. I figure he’ll get it all back by season’s start.

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  • #581583
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    LOFTY
    Participant

    i noticed the same thing with derrick favors. he had hops in college but i have yet to see it in the nba.

     

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  • #581345
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    LOFTY
    Participant

    i noticed the same thing with derrick favors. he had hops in college but i have yet to see it in the nba.

     

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  • #581376
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    bron42
    Participant

    most of ya’ll arent dunkers huh? cuz you’d kno its tough to have crazy hops at 6’4 and under. it takes ALOT out of your legs to do it on a regular basis…so in college and high school u have what? 15 games? NBA is 82+ in some cases and wayyyy more intese, so dunking crazy 24/7 wears u out…look at someone like steve francis. In his prime one of the top dunkers, but at 6’2 it just wore out his knees. derrick rose is flashy when he wants to be but he can’t go 110 mph every second or he’ll burn out.

    also, in high school and college against other guys who arent freak athletes, a guy who is above average stands out. like favors isn’t a freak athlete but against other big stiffs in college he looked like it…in the nba hes barely above average. guys like tyrus thomas are better.

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  • #581613
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    bron42
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    most of ya’ll arent dunkers huh? cuz you’d kno its tough to have crazy hops at 6’4 and under. it takes ALOT out of your legs to do it on a regular basis…so in college and high school u have what? 15 games? NBA is 82+ in some cases and wayyyy more intese, so dunking crazy 24/7 wears u out…look at someone like steve francis. In his prime one of the top dunkers, but at 6’2 it just wore out his knees. derrick rose is flashy when he wants to be but he can’t go 110 mph every second or he’ll burn out.

    also, in high school and college against other guys who arent freak athletes, a guy who is above average stands out. like favors isn’t a freak athlete but against other big stiffs in college he looked like it…in the nba hes barely above average. guys like tyrus thomas are better.

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  • #581388
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    Memphis Madness
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    tyga,

    It looks like Rose has the same amount of hops as he did at Memphis.  He is just as quick off the ground but it looks like he is more explosive and powerful. 

    I never considered John Wall to be in the same league as Rose.  Wall might be taller and longer, but it seems like Rose has always been more explosive.

    I think one guy who might have lost some of his vertical is OJ Mayo.  He tested out at a 41 inch vertical even though he never seemed like that much of a jumper/leaper when I watched him on TV in college.  He might have great ups (I watched him throw down an AWESOME reverse dunk in the playoffs) but I don’t think he is that explosive, or he just doesn’t use it that much.  … his first step isn’t that great and his lateral quickness isn’t exceptional so it might just look like he isn’t that explosive off the ground.  Or it could be that Rose is a fast jumper and OJ Mayo is not.

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  • #581625
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    Memphis Madness
    Participant

    tyga,

    It looks like Rose has the same amount of hops as he did at Memphis.  He is just as quick off the ground but it looks like he is more explosive and powerful. 

    I never considered John Wall to be in the same league as Rose.  Wall might be taller and longer, but it seems like Rose has always been more explosive.

    I think one guy who might have lost some of his vertical is OJ Mayo.  He tested out at a 41 inch vertical even though he never seemed like that much of a jumper/leaper when I watched him on TV in college.  He might have great ups (I watched him throw down an AWESOME reverse dunk in the playoffs) but I don’t think he is that explosive, or he just doesn’t use it that much.  … his first step isn’t that great and his lateral quickness isn’t exceptional so it might just look like he isn’t that explosive off the ground.  Or it could be that Rose is a fast jumper and OJ Mayo is not.

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  • #581392
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    The8thDeadlySin
    Participant

    Its as simple as 1 word.. Fatigue… When you are used to playing 25-30 games a year with as long as a week in between then you jump to 82 regular season games and then playoffs, its a big difference..  You have longer practices and you are constantly traveling.. You never rest as well as you would if you went home for a week and slept in your own bed every night.. It takes time to adjust..

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  • #581629
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    The8thDeadlySin
    Participant

    Its as simple as 1 word.. Fatigue… When you are used to playing 25-30 games a year with as long as a week in between then you jump to 82 regular season games and then playoffs, its a big difference..  You have longer practices and you are constantly traveling.. You never rest as well as you would if you went home for a week and slept in your own bed every night.. It takes time to adjust..

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  • #581635
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    Bison 49
    Participant

    Combining a few of your previous comments, it seems to be a strength issue. 

    – When you get bumped, you lose vertical power.  Example.  Howard has kept and in many cases increased his power.  When he goes up defenders/other players bounce off him, so he can save more of his burst off the floor to fight gravity as opposed to lateral forces.  Also, how many times do you hear about a thin/weak pg/sg who drives to the rim all the time in college, but is less effective in the pros?  It is usually an upper body/core strength issue.  While Rose is no weakling, he is still fighting stronger players. In college these guys fight against weeds when going up.  In the pros they are bouncing off of trees.

    – When you are worried about getting bumped (confidence in your strength), you do not exert as much power.  Vince carter is a good example.  The dude could prove Einstein’s theory wrong, but late in his TO career he stopped going to the hole or going up as high when driving.  In discussions on the highlight players (Carter/ Iverson/ Wallace), how many times do you heart that they pay a price for jumping so high and spending so much time in the air?  Players know this, and you can bet coaches teach this.  On the other hand the true Brutes of the league (Howard, Shaq of old, Amare, Lebron) don’t care as much because they know it is the other guys who will hurt.  There are not many players who posess this physical advantage, which leads to the third point…

    – Knowing it is a long and important season, players focus more on the function of what they do (jump for a layup/dunk), than the show (jumping as high as they can to show off).  If you know you will take (rather than give) a beating whan you sky for 38-42, why go so high when 32-35 will do the trick?  To use your examples, Winners like Rose (what he is), and Wall (what he wants to be) think about this and choose to do what needs to be done instead of what looks the best.  Francis was a said to be a selfish player, and not a winner.  He tried to show off too much.  Kobe was a flier, but he quit trying to prove it an focused on winning early in his career.

    – There is a difference between one rep power and multiple rep strength.  Players in the Pros know they will be playing 82 games and hope to be playing more.  The winners train for this schedule over the year, and as such focus on jumping 32-35 inches for 35-40 minutes over 82+ games, instead of jumping 38-42 inches for the first month of the season.  As a previous poster mentioned.  You get what you train for, and these guys are training for the long haul – 32-35 inches.  In HS/College these guys were training for scouts/Youtube/college groupies – 38-42 inches.

    There are probably other reasons, such as players focusing on a more comprehensive set of strengths than just jumping really high, and weight gain.  Above are a few reasons the max verts of top jumpres could and probably do decrease once players enter the NBA. 

    On the other hand, I bet guys that cannot jump as high in HS and college increase their verts in the pros because the coaches know they need to improve here.  Humphries was a good case of this.  He came out of college being seen a an athletic question mark, but was pretty strong here as his career developed in the pros.

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  • #581398
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    Bison 49
    Participant

    Combining a few of your previous comments, it seems to be a strength issue. 

    – When you get bumped, you lose vertical power.  Example.  Howard has kept and in many cases increased his power.  When he goes up defenders/other players bounce off him, so he can save more of his burst off the floor to fight gravity as opposed to lateral forces.  Also, how many times do you hear about a thin/weak pg/sg who drives to the rim all the time in college, but is less effective in the pros?  It is usually an upper body/core strength issue.  While Rose is no weakling, he is still fighting stronger players. In college these guys fight against weeds when going up.  In the pros they are bouncing off of trees.

    – When you are worried about getting bumped (confidence in your strength), you do not exert as much power.  Vince carter is a good example.  The dude could prove Einstein’s theory wrong, but late in his TO career he stopped going to the hole or going up as high when driving.  In discussions on the highlight players (Carter/ Iverson/ Wallace), how many times do you heart that they pay a price for jumping so high and spending so much time in the air?  Players know this, and you can bet coaches teach this.  On the other hand the true Brutes of the league (Howard, Shaq of old, Amare, Lebron) don’t care as much because they know it is the other guys who will hurt.  There are not many players who posess this physical advantage, which leads to the third point…

    – Knowing it is a long and important season, players focus more on the function of what they do (jump for a layup/dunk), than the show (jumping as high as they can to show off).  If you know you will take (rather than give) a beating whan you sky for 38-42, why go so high when 32-35 will do the trick?  To use your examples, Winners like Rose (what he is), and Wall (what he wants to be) think about this and choose to do what needs to be done instead of what looks the best.  Francis was a said to be a selfish player, and not a winner.  He tried to show off too much.  Kobe was a flier, but he quit trying to prove it an focused on winning early in his career.

    – There is a difference between one rep power and multiple rep strength.  Players in the Pros know they will be playing 82 games and hope to be playing more.  The winners train for this schedule over the year, and as such focus on jumping 32-35 inches for 35-40 minutes over 82+ games, instead of jumping 38-42 inches for the first month of the season.  As a previous poster mentioned.  You get what you train for, and these guys are training for the long haul – 32-35 inches.  In HS/College these guys were training for scouts/Youtube/college groupies – 38-42 inches.

    There are probably other reasons, such as players focusing on a more comprehensive set of strengths than just jumping really high, and weight gain.  Above are a few reasons the max verts of top jumpres could and probably do decrease once players enter the NBA. 

    On the other hand, I bet guys that cannot jump as high in HS and college increase their verts in the pros because the coaches know they need to improve here.  Humphries was a good case of this.  He came out of college being seen a an athletic question mark, but was pretty strong here as his career developed in the pros.

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  • #581663
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    JNixon
    Participant

    Yeah, in HS it’s easier for an elite athlete to just blow past a guy and have a full-speed charge to the rim. In college and the NBA, it’s harder to beat guys off the dribble as easy so on drives to the rim guys have a player on their hip most times, and then they have to worry about helpside defense rotating to block shots (another element most college and pro defenses have that HS competition doesn’t). It certainly is a matter of strength as mentioned above, and it also is due to the fact that often there are a bunch of good athletes on the floor at the same time so it’s much harder to stand out. These guys don’t lose athleticism, it’s often the opposite, but it’s just a matter of everyone else being good athletes too and the different defensive approaches and the strength that it takes to be able to showcase athleticism against other guys with high-level athleticism.

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  • #581426
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    JNixon
    Participant

    Yeah, in HS it’s easier for an elite athlete to just blow past a guy and have a full-speed charge to the rim. In college and the NBA, it’s harder to beat guys off the dribble as easy so on drives to the rim guys have a player on their hip most times, and then they have to worry about helpside defense rotating to block shots (another element most college and pro defenses have that HS competition doesn’t). It certainly is a matter of strength as mentioned above, and it also is due to the fact that often there are a bunch of good athletes on the floor at the same time so it’s much harder to stand out. These guys don’t lose athleticism, it’s often the opposite, but it’s just a matter of everyone else being good athletes too and the different defensive approaches and the strength that it takes to be able to showcase athleticism against other guys with high-level athleticism.

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  • #581917
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    Lotto Stud
    Participant

    "i noticed the same thing with derrick favors. he had hops in college but i have yet to see it in the nba."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R46xQpj9K0 Derrick Favors NBA yam

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  • #581679
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    Lotto Stud
    Participant

    "i noticed the same thing with derrick favors. he had hops in college but i have yet to see it in the nba."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R46xQpj9K0 Derrick Favors NBA yam

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