[KingPapasParticipant]

If Russell Westbrook doesn’t win MVP it will be like when Steve Nash robbed Kobe of the MVP.

Mike D’Antoni was the coach of both Harden and Nash and his system plays a huge role in letting the Point Guard shine. Wins matter but Westbrook has carried his team and deserves the award for doing the unthinkable. I

Who do you think should get MVP and Why?

[Arc12345Participant]

Nice comparison of Nash to Harden in D’Antoni’s system.

As big of a Kobe fan as I am (I think he should have at the MINIMUM 3 MVP’s), this would be an even bigger robbery.

Averaging a triple double for a year is just absurd. The team’s record when he’s recorded one is also extremely impressive, showing he’s not just doing this for no reason. He’s doing this and getting it done.

 

 

  

[SeattleSuperChronicsParticipant]

the first time someone has averaged a triple double in 55 years…you have to give him the MVP. If Russ would of averaged 30 10 and 9.5 I give to Hardern. But the fact he was the first to do it in 55 years and it’s not like they are in the lottery. Still a winning team. But if this same thing happen next year the triple double doesn’t mean as much because t just happen. This is historic.

[kobyzParticipant]

 if westbrooke get it why not greek freek, he leds his team to same seed as westbrooke but with much less supporting cast…

[jjj10manParticipant]

 You right. Forget all these people who say this stupid argument "take him off the team and see what happens" 
If you take Giannis off his team they are the worst in the league this year, I guess he is MVP then. 
By that Logic the MVP will between the discussion of players like Joel Embiid, Anthony Davis, Jimmy Butler, and Giannis.

To answer the question, Mathmatically, Harden has more wins than Westbrook

mathmatically, multiplying Harden’s eFG% or TS% times the amount of points he scores shows Harden is a better scorer than Westbrook.

Mathmatically, Harden is a better passer than Westbrook by assist and assist/turnover ratio

Westbrook is a slightly better rebounder and defender than Harden.

Now it’s time to ask 100 times out of 100, who is considered a better PG, player, or having a better season (what ever way you want to look at it quite frankly) the PG who is winning more, is a better passer, and better scorer, or the PG who is a better rebounder and defender?

At this point, you have to realize how ridiculously bias the media has been with the Mr. Fantastic reaching to push the narrative of Westbrook getting his "vengence" on KD leaving OKC. Westbrook got spanked almost everytime he played GSW which was on national TV, and had some of his worst games of the year while doing so. There is no way if this was any other player besides Lebron, Westbrook, Anthony Davis, or any other player the media slobs over would this be a discussion.  Westbrook winning MVP would be a travesty; people are literally only giving him the MVP because they like him, which makes me hate him as a player 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 Lol Milwaukee has so much more talent around Greek Freak than Westy has around him. 

Milwaukee also in a bad Eastern Conference. 

Westy deserves MVP for sure. Replace him with an average starting Point guard and that team wins maybe 25 games. Replace Harden or Kawhi and LeBron with average starters at their position and those teams are still playoff caliber I think. 

 

 

 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 What does "mathamatically Harden has more wins than Westbrook" even mean? The Rockets have more wins than the Thunder? Because yes, the Rockets have better players.

The "take x player off his team…" thing quantifies value. The award isn’t for "most outstanding" or "player of the year"…it’s most valuable. So having crappy teammates should help someone’s MVP case. 

OKC has one guy aside from Westbrook that would play significant minutes for Houston in Steven Adams. Kanter might be a rotation bench guy. Domantas freaking Sabonis started 50-some games for OKC. 

Go ahead and hate Westbrook. He’s an annoying player and I don’t necessarily like the way he plays. But if you think he’s less valuable in the process of getting his team where it is compared to where Harden’s gotten his team to this point, I think you are wrong. 

 

 

 

[cohenbc1Participant]

 The problem with choosing an MVP based on what you think the team would have been without him is that you’re just pulling an opinion out of your ass.

Maybe, without Westbrook, OKC would have been one of those gritty, defense-minded teams that plays all-out every game, college style, and manages to win 40 games without anything close to an all-star (think Memphis when Gasol and Conley are injured, or that year Doc Rivers led Orlando to the playoffs when their best player was Darrell Armstrong).

Or maybe not. But it does happen every so often.

And giving Westbrook MVP because averaging a triple-double is "historic" is just fetishizing stats. Harden and LeBron came pretty close to averaging a triple-double, and on better teams. 

What we can look at objectively is which team had the best season, and who is the best player on that team (winning the championship is the point of sports, right)?

Based on that, Curry is the clear MVP again. And it’s not just because of the wins — a lot of advanced stats say that Curry (and LeBron and maybe CP3 if you don’t adjust for games missed) are still the best players in the NBA.

ESPN’s RPM: Curry 7.09 (3rd), Westbrook 5.97 (9th).

Win shares: Curry 18.2 (2nd), Westbrook 16.8 (4th).

Here’s a good summary of why Curry’s advanced states are so good even though his "counting stats" are down this year: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-case-for-stephen-curry-mvp/?addata=espn:nba:index

 

 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 It’s true that Westbrook averaging a triple double shouldn’t necessarily be all end all. It should factor into the equation though and if it doesnt you are being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. 

If you think OKC would be that gritty Memphis like team that wins 40 games without Westbrook then say so. It’s an internet forum. You are allowed to have an opinion even if the origin is your colon 🙂 

I don’t think this Thunder team would’ve won 20 games without Westbrook. I think they would’ve been lucky to win 25 with a PG ranked 12-18 rather than the one ranked 1-3. 

So I think he’s more valuable to his team getting to the point its gotten than Harden and LeBron are to their respective teams getting to this point. The Cavs and Rockets are title contenders but if the MVP is a regular season award, then getting to the playoffs should be what these teams are judged on. I strong believe OKC would’ve had zero shot at getting to the playoffs without Westbrook. I can’t say the same about LeBron’s Cavs. And I think OKC needs Westbrook to be what he is more than Houston needs Harden to be what he is – so I think he should be MVP. Triple doubles are cool and that certainly matters. But if he was averaging 30, 9.9 and 9.9, he’d still be the MVP because his teammates aren’t good compared to Harden’s. 

  

 

 

 

[jjj10manParticipant]

 1st of all, who is the 2nd best player on Harden’s team? Eric Gordon? Lou Williams? Ryan Anderson? (who they barely had)

The 2nd best player on the Rockets comes off the bench and people act like Harden has the dream team.

His best players don’t even start, they are not even close to all star level players. 
Westbrook has Steven Adams, who many thought would be an all star after the Western Conference Finals last year. Oladipo also is good and was the #2 pick. They are literally the same level of players in each team. I can’t believe people decide to make the excuse "but he has Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon" as to why the Rockets are better. Newsflash, having better teammates has never discredited anyone from being the MVP because it balances itself out by making it harder to put up MVP type numbers. 

No Westbrook’s triple double does not factor in what so ever.

If Westbrook averaged 30-10-9.9 no one would be giving him MVP. .1 rebound shoud be counted as .1 rebound, not some fairy magical stat that makes him 10X better than people that are more efficent than him.

 

 

[EspressoParticipant]

 I think Rusell will get it, but the case for Harden is very strong. You wanna talk about how D’antonis system lets PGa shine, yes, but can you really say OKC is any different.

[HitsterParticipant]

 I think that it is clearly between Harden and Westbrook. One has better stats, the other is on the more successful team, one has better starting 5, the other a better bench, neither have won it before, both are a similar age, so it is a really open vote.

I’d side with Westbrook as he has had a better season and although Harden’s team were more successful, the Rockets were still a distant 3rd in Western Conference so it’s not like he has driven his team to the Conference’s best record.

 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Westbrook isn’t in a D’Antonio offense, but similar to Harden he’s allowed to play hero ball all game and have the offense revolve around him. 

Both are putting up similar numbers. The main difference is the 2-3 rebounds Westbrook’s teammates just get out of the way & let him have per game. 

I think it’s really close (should be co-MVPs), but I know Westbrook will get it due to the whole "Durant left him & he averaged a triple double" storyline. 

 

 

[HeroescantdieParticipant]

 To me Brodie’s supporting cast is worst than harden. Harden’s teammates we’re all established or one point in time vital cog of a team. They we’re perfect on the team’s system. Shooter’s all around. Gordon anderson and williams. They have a rim protector in Capella and veteran in Nene although not dependable. Westbrook’s team however I believe is more inconsistent and not that dependable, besides adams. Oladipo is inconsistent, questionable 3pt shot. Roberson with no offense. Kanter who missed games due to stupidity. But after the trade deadline they now have mcdermott and gibson which I believe really helped the team but imagine before westbrook has no help. While harden with anderson gordon ariza and others. His supporting cast is much more dependable and perfectly suited for the system. Imagine westbrook in the rockets system. And imagine harden on OKC. I think okc wouldnt win these many games. OKC system is also based on westbrook but I feel rockets system is much more better than OKC. Im confused with OKC system. But that’s my opinion

 

 

 

[NYK2010Participant]

Westbrook is a much better defender than Harden. 

Harden has better shooters around him  buthe is a better shooter and playmaker. 

Kawhi and Steph are in the conversation too can’t dismiss all those wins. 

Kawhi is the best defensive player of any superstar easily. 

The Cavs struggling in the 2nd half of the season hurts Lebron. 

 

 

[kobyzParticipant]

 can i ask again why westbrook and not greek freek if you going with that nerative that make you givr it to westbrook??

[machu46Participant]

I love the Bucks and obviously love Giannis, but Giannis simply wasn’t on Westbrook’s level this year. The Bucks didn’t have as much success as OKC either. Giannis’ time will come, but it isn’t this year. He should probably get a few 5th place votes, but that’s it.

[machu46Participant]

1. James Harden – Harden and Westbrook are basically the same statistically, with a couple exceptions: Harden is a more efficient scorer, and on/off splits favor Westbrook (though this is partially due to the way Houston staggers their lineups versus OKC mainly using hockey-style line changes). At the end of the day, neither guy plays a lick of defense, so you’re voting on offense. Harden is simply a better scorer and passer IMO, and I also think he deserves credit for helping lead this team to drastically outplay expectations while OKC merely met their expectations.
2. Russell Westbrook – See above.
3. Kawhi Leonard – Insanely efficient offense along with one of the best defenders in the NBA. His year-to-year improvements continue to astound me. Taking a very flawed Spurs team to 60+ wins is a great accomplishment, regardless of how much of it is due to their exceptional system.
4. LeBron James – Even with two all-stars around him, this team falls apart without LeBron. He had a phenomenal season, and if not for the extremely disappointing play over the 2nd half of the year, he probably would have been my #2.
5. Giannis Antetokounmpo – For me, this came down to Curry and Giannis, with Wall and Isaiah just a little further behind. Giannis did everything for the Bucks, becoming the first player in NBA history to be top 20 in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in the same season. Curry has had yet another incredible season. I highly recommend people read the case for Steph that was published on FiveThirtyEight. His impact on the Warriors offense is incredible, and obviously their win totals help his case a lot. At the end of the day, I just think the one-man wrecking crew of Giannis deserves it. Even without a jumpshot, he’s basically unstoppable as a scorer, while also being a good passer and defender.

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