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NBA All-Time Team Voting by Position (Part II)

mikeyvthedon
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NBA All-Time Team Voting by Position (Part II)

Well, I have done the calculations for the first 13 voters who were as follows:

mikeyvthedon, JoeWolf1, tjmartin23, Rudeboy, ItsDwightHoward, TaylorCondrin, llperez, Uncle Bucksh0t, Mkadoza, Bad Dog, StF616, aamir543 and Indiana Basketball

I would like to thank all of the 12 posters I have accounted for thus far! For anyone who has made a list that is not included (I saw one new poster who had), your votes will still be counted in the next tally. I encourage other posters to make a list of their top 5 at each position. Feel free to post it on here, or on my original post, which has a brief explanation and template:

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/nba-all-time-team-voting-position

So far, these are the scores the players have tabulated through the first 13 voters:

PG

1. Magic Johnson (65 points, 13 first place votes)

2. Oscar Robertson (52 points)

3. John Stockton (31 points)

4. Isiah Thomas (26 points)

5. Jason Kidd (8 points)

Others receiving votes: Bob Cousy (5 points), Gary Payton (4 points), Walt Frazier (3 points), Allen Iverson (1 point, you seem to be the only one who thinks he was a PG aamir)

SG

1. Michael Jordan (65 points, 13 first place votes)

2. Kobe Bryant (52 points)

3. Jerry West (38 points)

4. Allen Iverson (14 points)

5. George Gervin (12 points)

Others receiving votes: Clyde Drexler (7 votes), Dwyane Wade (6 votes), Pete Maravich (1 points)

SF

1. Larry Bird (65 points, 13 first place votes)

2. Elgin Baylor (42 points)

3. Julius Erving (41 points)

4. LeBron James (16 points)

5. Rick Barry (13 points)

Others receiving votes: John Havlicek (10 points), Scottie Pippen (8 points)

PF

1. Tim Duncan (63 points, 11 first place votes)

2. Karl Malone (53 points, 2 first place votes)

3. Charles Barkley (28 points)

4. Kevin Garnett (22 points, voted for by 11 participants)

5. Bob Pettit (22 points, voted for by 10 participants)

Others receiving votes: Dirk Nowitzki (4 points), Kevin McHale (3 points)

C

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (54 points, 7 first place votes)

2. Wilt Chamberlain (48 points, 4 first place votes)

3. Shaquille O'Neal (41 points, 1 first place vote)

4. Bill Russell (29 points, 1 first place vote)

5. Hakeem Olajuwon (23 points)

Other receiving votes: Nada

That is the tally thus far, with 9 different PG's getting votes, 8 different SG's, 7 different SF/PF's and just the 5 Center's everyone has agreed upon at least belong in the top 5 (though not necessarily where in it). Magic, Michael and Bird were unanimous thus far, while Tim Duncan was pretty close. Center definitely had the widest range in voting, with very few having similar placements as the others.

I hope to see more lists! 12 posters was a fantastic first response, but I think it would be even better for more posters to be heard! Also, I encourage people to discuss the votes thus far and the lists others have made. I also encourage those to give the further lists submitted a free pass until the next up date. Please feel free to even post reasoning behind why you made the picks that did (for prior posters) or why you are making the ones you have now (for new posters). Hope to have 12 more additional, if not more, for the next update!


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Magic MJ Lebron Malone Shaq T

Magic

MJ

Lebron

Malone

Shaq

That's my vote

mikeyvthedon
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Hi its Ben

Please read my previous post. Guess I should have posted the rules, but you make a top 5 of each position. Here are the rules and template:

The rules are simple, you rank the 5 All-Time best players at each position in NBA History. The scoring for the poll will be general NBA MVP scoring. A first place vote is worth 5 points, a second place vote is worth 4 points, a third place vote 3, a fourth place vote 2 and a fifth place vote 1. You each have one vote, so make your decisions carefully. I am hoping to get as many participants as possible, and I am hoping they will cast their votes seriously. In the end, we will have consensus rankings of the greatest of All-Time amongst the site, which could lead to even possibly more votes.

The Template (You can just copy and paste it):

5 Best PG's of All-Time

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

5 Best SG's of All-Time

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

5 Best SF's of All-Time

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

5 Best PF's of All-Time

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

5 Best C's of All-Time

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

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My Bad

PG

1. Magic

2. Oscar Robertson

3. John Stockton

4. Isaiah Thomas

5. Kidd

SG

1. MJ

2. Kobe

3. West

4. Dwade

5. Iverson

SF

1. Lebron

2. Bird

3. Baylor

4. Erving

5. Pippen

PF

1. Malone

2. Duncan

3 Garnett

4. Barkley

5. Dirk

C

1. Shaq

2. Kareem

3. Wilt

4. Hakeem

5. Russell

That's my vote

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PG 1. Magic Johnson 2. Oscar

PG

1. Magic Johnson

2. Oscar Robinson

3. John Stockton

4. Jason Kidd

5. Isiah Thomas

SG

1.MJ

2.Kobe

3. Jerry West

4.Dwade

5. A.I

SF

1.Larry Bird

2. Elgin Baylor

3. Dr.J

4.Scottie Pippen

5.Lebron

PF

1.Malone

2. Tim Duncan

3. KG

4.Charles Barkley

5. Bob Pettit

C.

1. Shaq

2.Russel

3.Wilt

4. Kareem

5.Hakeem

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My List

5 Best PG's of All-Time

1. Oscar Robertson

2. Magic Johnson

3. John Stockton

4. Jason Kidd

5. Isaiah Thomas

5 Best SG's of All-Time

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant

3. Jerry West

4. Clyde Drexler

5. Allen Iverson

5 Best SF's of All-Time

1. Larry Bird

2. Julius Erving

3. Elgin Baylor

4. Scottie Pippen

5. Lebron James

5 Best PF's of All-Time

1. Tim Duncan

2. Karl Malone

3. Kevin Garnett

4. Dirk Nowitzki

5. Charles Barkley

5 Best C's of All-Time

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

2. Shaquille Oneil

3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Bill Russel

5. Hakeem Olajuwan

Jlv2012
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Jlv's Picks:

5 Best PG's of All-Time

1. Earvin Johnson Jr

2. Brent Price

3. Darrick Martin

4. Mateen Cleaves

5. Javaris Crittenton

5 Best SG's of All-Time

1. Michael Jeffrey Jordan

2. Jim Jackson

3. Anthony Peeler

4. Trenton Hassell

5. Bo Kimble

5 Best SF's of All-Time

1. Larry Joe Bird

2. Ira Newble

3. Adam Morrison

4. Luke Jackson

5. Adam Morrison again

5 Best PF's of All-Time

1. Timothy Theodore Duncan

2. Brian Scalabrine

3. Brian Cardinal

4. Kenny Thomas

5. Brian Something

5 Best C's of All-Time

1. Shaquille Rashaun O'Neal

2. Darko Milicic

3. Kwame Brown

4. Michael Olowokandi

5. Sam Bowie

iguapops420
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PG 1.Magic 2.Big

PG

1.Magic

2.Big O

3.Isaiah

4.Stockton

5.Kidd

SG

1.MJ

2.Kobe

3.West

4.IceMan

5.Drexler

SF

1.Larry Legend

2.Dr.J

3.Elgin Baylor

4.Dominique

5.Pippen

PF

1.Duncan

2.Malone

3.Elvin Hayes

4.Barkley

5.McHale

C.

1.KAJ

2.Wilt

3.Russell

4.Shaq

5.Hakeem

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I may get some hate on mine

I may get some hate on mine but Im ranking on ppl ive actually seen play and being a realist when it comes to stats and Era or time played. I know its not fair to judge people who played way in the day but you have to. Most athletes now are similiar in strength speed jumping and so on with only a few above and beyonds players compared to then when if you were just big that was enough or just quick.

5 Best PG's of All-Time

1. Magic Johnson

2. John Stockton

3.Jason Kidd

4.Isiah Thomas

5. Gary Payton

5 Best SG's of All-Time

1.M.j

2.Kobe

3. West

4.Wade

5.A.I

5 Best SF's of All-Time

1.For overall career bird but i honestly think Lebron is more talented

2.Lebron

3.Wilkins

4.Pippen

5.T-Mac< the things this guy could do pre injury was just insane and if you need any proof for that just watch this, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb9k-b6Zeww&feature=fvst

5 Best PF's of All-Time

1.Based on overall career Duncan but i still consider him a center after Robinson left he really was the center for the most part, i think Garnett was more talented he took horrible Timber teams to the play offs and in one year he had a stable team made western c's then to the celtics first year a ship. If he had a stable team like the spurs i think he has the better career

2.K.g

3.Malone

4.Moses malone

5.Dirk

5 Best C's of All-Time

1. Kareem for career but i still think Shaqs the MDE ppl focus on things he didnt do but never focused on the things he did do like scare every person who had to gaurd him the next nite

2.Russel never seen many games but 11 ships is enough for me

3.Dream

4.Wilt

5.Robinson

iguapops420
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Note: LBJ was kept off of my

Note: LBJ was kept off of my top 5 SF's list due to the fact his career has really yet to be fullfilled. Anything could happen to him beorfe his career is over. He could end up getting an injury or never end up winning a title. Personally, if he ends up with either of those careers, IMO, I can't feel right putting him on here and leaving off T-Mac. As of now, I feel LBJ is ineligible.

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Note: LBJ was kept off of my

Note: LBJ was kept off of my top 5 SF's list due to the fact his career has really yet to be fullfilled. Anything could happen to him beorfe his career is over. He could end up getting an injury or never end up winning a title. Personally, if he ends up with either of those careers, IMO, I can't feel right putting him on here and leaving off T-Mac. As of now, I feel LBJ is ineligible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankly I feel that LBJ has already accomplished more than McGrady. Both of them have 7 All-Star games but LBJ has 5 All-NBA First Team selections to TMac's 2. Lebron has 2 MVP awards, while TMac has none. Lebron has been the better rebounder, passer and defender. And while neither has won a championship LBJ's at least led a team to two finals appearances while TMac has never won a playoff series.

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PG1. Magic Johnson2. Oscar

PG

1. Magic Johnson

2. Oscar Robertson

3. Isiah Thomas

4. Jason Kidd

5. John Stockton

SG

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant

3. Jerry West

4. Dwyane Wade)

5. Pete Maravich

SF

1. Larry Bird

2. Scottie Pippen

3. Julius Erving

4. LeBron James

5. Clyde Drexler

PF

1. Tim Duncan

2. Karl Malone

3. Bill Russell

4. Charles Barkley

5. Kevin Garnett

C

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

2. Wilt Chamberlain

3. Shaquille O'Neal

4. Hakeem Olajuwon

5. David Robinson

I know people are going to say that Russell is a center but i see him more as PF.

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PG 1. Magic Johnson 2. John

PG

1. Magic Johnson

2. John Stockton

3. Oscar Robertson

4. Isiah Thomas

5. Steve Nash

SG

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant

3. Jerry West

4. Allen Iverson

5. Clyde Drexler

SF

1. Larry Bird

2. LeBron James

3. Elgin Baylor

4. Julius Erving

5. Scottie Pippen

PF

1. Tim Duncan

2. Karl Malone

3. Charles Barkley

4. Bob Pettit

5. Kevin Garnett

C

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

2. Bill Russell

3. Shaquille O'Neal

4. Wilt Chamberlain

5. Hakeem Olajuwon

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Thank you for your lists

Especially Jlv Gianttrollingdouchebag 2011. Your opinion really means something.......

Also, Bill Russell may have been the size of a PF as far as modern day basketball is concerned, but he was VERY clearly, a Center. I will count your vote RICO 1981, but I do not really see people getting down with the "Russell was more of a PF" campaign. Rebounding, shot blocking and, well, playing Center kind of prevail in most people putting him in their top 5 pivots.

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Also, Bill Russell may have

Also, Bill Russell may have been the size of a PF as far as modern day basketball is concerned, but he was VERY clearly, a Center. I will count your vote RICO 1981, but I do not really see people getting down with the "Russell was more of a PF" campaign. Rebounding, shot blocking and, well, playing Center kind of prevail in most people putting him in their top 5 pivots.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Agree 100%. Not to mention that Russell was 6-9 back when they measured players barefoot. That's actually the exact same height as Dwight Howard. By today's standards they would probably list Russell at 6-11. There are some guys that played both center and PF over their careers; Spencer Haywood, Elvin Hayes, Bob McAddo, for example. Russell was NOT one of them. Let's call a spade a spade and a center a center.

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Wilt

5 Best PG's of All-Time

1.Magic Johnson

2.Oscar Robertson

3.John Stockton

4.Jason Kidd

5.Isiah Thomas

5 Best SG's of All-Time

1.Michael Jordan

2.Kobe Bryant

3.Tracy McGrady

4.Clyde Drexler

5.Allen Iverson

5 Best SF's of All-Time

1.Larry Bird

2.LeBron James

3.Julius Erving

4.Elgin Baylor

5.Scottie Pippen

5 Best PF's of All-Time

1.Kevin Garnett

2.Karl Malone

3.Charles Barkley

4.Tim Duncan

5.Dirk Nowitzki

5 Best C's of All-Time

1.Wilt Chamberlain

2.Bill Russell

3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4.Shaq

5.Hakeem Olajuwon

Mr. Chicago
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Great Post

5 Best PG's of All-Time

1. Magic Johnson

2. Oscar Robertson

3. Bob Cousy

4. Isiah Thomas

5. Gary Payton

5 Best SG's of All-Time

1. Michael Jordan

2. Jerry West

3. Kobe Bryant

4. Allen Iverson

5. Dwayne Wade

5 Best SF's of All-Time

1. Larry Bird

2. Elgin Baylor

3. Julius Erving

4. Scottie Pippen

5. Lebron James

5 Best PF's of All-Time

1. Tim Duncan

2. Moses Malone (listed as a Forward/Center - thought he qualified. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonmo01.html)

3. Charles Barkley

4. Karl Malone

5. Kevin Garnett

5 Best C's of All-Time

1. Bill Russell

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Hakeem Olajuwon

5. Shaquille O'Neal

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MikeV

Great subject matter, i like to see the differing opinions.

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I am not a Lebron hater, but

I am not a Lebron hater, but I agree with Iguapops, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to be putting him ahead of Nique and Erving and Pippen. In due time, he will be a lock for top two at the small foward spot, but hold your horses.

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lebron could retire today and

lebron could retire today and i would put him at #2. He has been argubaly the best player in the nba for close to 5 years and has been an all-star from day 1. The sf position is easily the weakest in terms of all time greats imo so its the one position where a guy can move towards the top a little quicker then others. Hes already got 8 years under his belt and guys like pippen, erving, baylor, barry and havlicek all got argumetns against them as well. And i really dont like lebron so take that for what its worth.

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Imma participate for you MikeyV

5 Best PG's of All-Time

1. Magic Johnson

2. John Stockton

3. Oscar Robertson

4. Jason Kidd

5. Gary Payton

5 Best SG's of All-Time

1. Dalen Qualls! --> sikeeeee, Mike Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant

3. Allen Iverson

4. Reggie Miller (his clutch shots really is the reason why I add him)

5. Drazen Petrovic (I think could have been higher had it not been for the death IMO)

5 Best SF's of All-Time

1. Larry Bird

2. LeBron James

3. Dr. J Julius Erving

4. Scottie Pippen

5. Kevin Durant (wayyyyy to early I know but whatever, I think this guy will get to that status. A couple of championships will solidify this and I believe a chip is coming soon)

5 Best PF's of All-Time

1. Tim Duncan

2. Charles Barkley

3. Karl Malone

4. Kevin Garnett

5. Dirk Nowitzki

5 Best C's of All-Time

1. Shaq

2. Hakeem the Dream

3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Alonzo Mourning (injuries derailed a lot but this guys passion is unreal!)

5. Bill Russell

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I hope this dude is kidding

I hope this dude is kidding by not putting Kareem on the top 5 all-time center's list..../\/\

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i know we are all entitled to

i know we are all entitled to our opinions, but zo top 5???? I watched his entire career and he isnt even in the discussion for top 5. Dman good player, but he wasnt even a legit mvp candidate. Robinson and ewing were both better and thats before we even mention the great kareem abdul jabbar.

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PG 1. Magic Johnson 2. Oscar

PG

1. Magic Johnson

2. Oscar Robertson

3. John Stockton

4. Isiah Thomas

5. Jason Kidd

SG

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kobe Bryant

3. Jerry West

4.Clyde Drexler

5. Allen Iverson

SF

1. Larry Bird (65 points, 13 first place votes)

2.Julius Ivring

3. Elgin Baylor

4. LeBron James

5. John Havlicek

PF

1. Karl Malone

2. Tim Duncan

3. Charles Barkley

4. Kevin Garnett

5. Dirk Nowitzki

C

1. Bill Russell

2.Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar

3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Hakeem Olajuwon

5. Shaquille O'Neal

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SMH @ Myself! WOWW I just

SMH @ Myself! WOWW I just negged myself! SMH SMH SMH SMH

Dude I completely apologize for missing Kareem! Could I change my center list and add Kareem at 3rd, Wilt 4th and Russell 5th

The only reason why I was thinking Alonzo was because of his shot blocking and how he overcame all his adversities and was that feel good story. But it honestly slipped my mind about Kareem. My bad guys, that was on myself SMH

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OK, so because LBJ has been

OK, so because LBJ has been over exposed and overrated by the media for having similar numbers to T-Mac he deserves the list. Call me crazy, but inflated numbers and a career of losing means nothing to me personally. LBJ has terrific numbers but if his career ended now I wouldn't say he deserves to be above anyone in the top 5. His 8 years mean nothing to me if he can't finish out his career on a high note. Like I said, by the end of his career, yes, he'll more than likely be top 3, but until he's further into his career at least 10 years or more, I'm leaving him ineligible. Even though Bill Walton has an MVP, a finals MVP, and even a 6MOY, doesn't mean I put him higher than he deserves.

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I will do that

Since it was an obvious oversight. But, as I said, "MAKE YOUR DECISIONS CAREFULLY". Still, since I have made my fair share of lists, I have definitely left people out and made oversights. What I am thinking is that possibly, after we have had some more voters and established a top 5, maybe we could leave those 5 out and make "The Next 5" or 6-10. As great and inspirational as Alonzo Mourning was, I am not even sure he would be among that as their are the likes of Moses Malone, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, George Mikan, Robert Parish, Bill Walton, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier and Nate Thurmond to deal with. He may indeed be close with a few of them, but the depth at the Center position is incredible at an All-Time level.

I was hoping to leave hypotheticals out of this, but I know with you guys, that appears to be impossible, lol. Nonetheless, I also thought about doing a new list of Top 5's of where you could see players ending up, which would more than likely include Kevin Durant and LeBron James. The reason it is difficult for even me to put LeBron in the list of Top 5 SF's at this point is due to the career accomplishments of the players in my top 5. Elgin Baylor played 14 seasons and was an explosive player, while Larry Bird, Dr. J, John Havlicek (who won rings without Bill Russell as well) and Rick Barry all lead teams to championships. Plus, the impressive abilities of Scottie Pippen and Dominique Wilkins are maybe to much to overlook, even with LeBron's incredible first 8 years.

I have to say, while Tracy McGrady was FANTASTIC for a 5 year period, and even strong in the couple years afterwards, LeBron James has already surpassed the guy. Want to see the stats:

T-Mac:

886 games, 18108 points, 20.4 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.6 apg, 43.5% FG

LeBron James:

627 games, 17362 points, 27.7 ppg, 7 rpg, 7.1 apg, 47.9% FG

Believe me, I know that T-Mac was incredibly explosive and a fantastic player. I also know he was brought along slowly in Toronto and was not "The Man", until Orlando. But, I live in Toronto, in his first few years, Tracy was not ready to be the man. His injuries were awful and his teams were never up to snuff, but the guy has still yet to PLAY on a team that made it out of the first round. Their play-off numbers are close, to be honest, T-Mac actually has averaged 28.5 to LeBron's 28. But, LeBron has played in 92 games to T-Mac's 38! He also shoots better, out rebounds T-Mac and gets more assists by a fair margin. LeBron was drafted in 2003 and T-Mac in 1997. So, I understand leaving LeBron off of the list, but I am not sure I feel that bad about leaving T-Mac off of the Top 5 SG's/SF's. When LeBron came into the league, T-Mac was a better player. However, since his rookie year, A LOT has changed. If the season should start, LeBron should surpass T-Mac in career scoring, maybe even while T-Mac is backing up he or Dwyane in Miami.

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T-Mac was held back in

T-Mac was held back in Toronto. Without those couple years, his career numbers are a lot better. And again, I said I didn't add LBJ due to the fact he could very well end up with a an injury that derails his career just as T-Mac did. LBJ also has turned into a jumpshot happy player when games get important over the past few years which is not something he's very good at. You can't always look at stats IMO.

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Yeah MikeyV, I think it would

Yeah MikeyV, I think it would be Interesting to see Who the Posters have as their 6-10 or the Next 5....

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Come on!

I live in Toronto, and I saw Tracy McGrady during his early years. He had enormous potential, but in NO WAY was he ready to do what LeBron James did out of the gate. Also, if you are calling LeBron "jump shot happy when the games are important", and fighting for Tracy McGrady to be more accomplished, than I think you are doing it wrong. Tracy McGrady never won a series man! If you are going to talk about elevated numbers, Tracy McGrady played on teams where he was the first 4 options, just as much if not more than what LeBron was in Cleveland. If you take away T-Mac's first two years, he would average 22.2 ppg. Yes, stats do not mean everything, but I think when you compare these two, LeBron clearly seems to have had a better career. Also, it is not that he "deserves the list", but he definitely is in the discussion over Tracy McGrady, "overexposed" or not.

We do not know that LeBron James at his best would be better than Tracy at the same. But, we do know that LeBron is a two time MVP, and, unlike Tracy McGrady, lead his teams with very little support out of the first round. Also, even with Toronto "holding him back" (I was more kidding about that), he did not have the same impact as LeBron James had early in his career. I do not know in what way Tracy McGrady has had the career LeBron has had at this point. I see what you are saying, that an injury could indeed severely effect where he is ranked amongst the best, but I think he has done a lot more than Tracy McGrady to even be in the discussion. Over his first 8 years in the league, there have been very few people who accomplished even close to what LeBron has. I definitely do not think Tracy McGrady was at the same level during his first 8 years, and he has done very little since to have him be in the discussion to be ranked similarly to LeBron James. If he had never gotten hurt, it might be different, but all things considered, I think the case is pretty cut and clear.

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No, Mikeyv, you never once

No, Mikeyv, you never once saw me say that T-mac was more accomplished. Plese don't put words in my mouth. Simply using Mac as a comparison. Complete difference. Mac clearly wasn't as accomplished. The guy never made it out of the first round simply that I think some of LBJ's accolades were undeserved due to stats, which is somethiing T-mac matched LBJ in. Just a personaly opinion. But FYI, Mac always played good in playoffs. Just because he didn't get wins, doesn't mean he wasn't doing what he could for his teams. I've alkways said it and racked up negatives for it saying that BOTH Mac and LBJ are TRUE #2 option who can't carry their teams to the big show on their own. They're elite #2's who can put up SUPERSTAR numbers but not able to get it done in the final few minutes. Similar to KG actually.

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Not putting words in your mouth

Apologize if it seemed that way, but the things you were saying to put LeBron down, while using T-Mac as a comparison, may have made it seem like you were supporting T-Mac being more accomplished. My bad. You did however say, "I can't feel right putting him on and leaving off T-Mac", which, I think you could see, leaves it to ones imagination of how to interpret that statement. I kind of thought it was saying, "If LeBron is in the Top 5, than so is T-Mac", but I guess that is not the case.

Still, what has LeBron not deserved? T-Mac did always "do everything he could in the play-offs", but so has LeBron. LeBron has had a couple of notably poor games in major play-off situations, but T-Mac also put up bad play-off games, and never had as big an elimination game as LeBron did in 2007-08 against the Celtics when he put up 45 points. LeBron also lead a team he was more than definitely the number one option on to a NBA Finals appearance. His 2007 Game 5 against Detroit Pistons is maybe the most impressive individual play-off performance I have ever seen, when he scored 29 of his teams final 30 points finishing with 49. The thing was, HE WAS TRYING TO GET HIS TEAM INVOLVED! That is what made it so amazing, he literally, took things on his shoulders.

Say what you will about LeBron, he did have really disappointing series in his past two eliminations from the play-offs, but he has worked his butt off in the play-offs to, man. Through 31 first round games, he has averaged 29.4 ppg. He also has never lost a first round series. I think this is the first year where you could even argue if he was the first option, but, he was the first option on all of those other ones. Did Tracy McGrady ever average 35.3 and do everything possible to get his team to the NBA Finals, like LeBron did in 2008-09? I know Tracy McGrady made it to 3 Game 7's, was up in a number of play-off series and has still never played in the 2nd round. Seeing that you said,

"Call me crazy, but inflated numbers and a career of losing means nothing to me personally."

When I believe you were referring to LeBron as opposed to T-Mac, I do not know how they are not in the same boat as far as that one. The thing is, LeBron has guided his teams further than T-Mac, even KG, did as the undoubted "first option" of the team. If his numbers are inflated, well, they have gotten him to pretty decent places. I agree with you in principle, that he has yet to win a ring, which is why I even left him out of my top 5. Still, no one can carry a team on their own, it is a team effort. One thing I do know, is that as far as carrying teams on his own, LeBron did a pretty damn good job. I do not put him in the category of T-Mac and KG simply for what he was able to do, pretty much, on his own.

LeBron has yet to win a ring, which keeps him out of the greats for now, but I think that he has had a better first 8 years than almost anybody in league history outside of possibly the Top 10 PLAYERS of All-Time. Of current players, that means maybe Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan were more accomplished through 8, but I think it puts him ahead of guys like KG, Tracy McGrady or anyone else who would be playing NBA basketball this potential season. So, you have that #2 argument for now, I suppose, but the guy is still only 26 years old and has made two NBA Finals and played 54 more play-off games than the guy you are comparing him to as a "true #2 options who can't carry teams to the big show on their own". LeBron has gotten much further than T-Mac ever has when he was on his own, and I think that if he does indeed win a ring, than all of the trash people talk about him not getting it done in the final few minutes (which is justified, but as I am saying, can be easily dispelled), will more than likely disappear.

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Look, even if we say Lebron

Look, even if we say Lebron is more accomplished than Tmac(which I agree with), I still don't think Lebron yeilds a spot on this spot YET. And even if you were to include him, I prefer him at the 5th spot for now, instead of right up there with Larry.

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For sure amir

I definitely agree at this current point in time. I definitely feel there are at least 7 SF's you could say are more accomplished than LeBron as far as their careers are concerned. I did not even rank LeBron in my top 5 as of yet because of this. The 7 I think of are Larry Bird, Elgin Baylor, Dr. J, Hondo Havlicek, Rick Barry, Scottie Pippen and Dominique Wilkins (though LeBron did play more play-off games than Nique, who had 56 for his career). Nonetheless, these guys had long, illustrious careers and it would be difficult to put LeBron's in front of them at this current point in time. Still, I do understand some ranking him as high as they have. This is, after all, who they see as the greatest of All-Time. People have different measurements, and some may feel that LeBron is maybe better than almost any of these players were. I think he absolutely has the chance to be, but I would like to see him with a ring, or at the very least further along in his career, before I put him in front of players who had been through and in many cases accomplished more once their careers came to a close.

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^^^ Which is exactly what I

^^^ Which is exactly what I was trying to convey. I see LBJ being up here at the end of his career, I just don't see him there yet. And I personally didn't think he deserved 2 back to back MVP's. I've seen tons of players have stats similar or better(Kobe for instance) and go most of or all of their careers without an MVP. That was mostly the media hugging LBJ's nuts. Hell, most people were even talking about him being a 3rd time this past season. Mac had better individual season's and never got the MVP.

As for leading further than Mac or KG, I'll give you that he has indeed done that, but Mac played a Lot in the West and KG played almost exclusively in the West, and would probably have become NBA champ by now had he not ran into Kobe-Shaq in WCF. Let's not compare the situations. LBJ's teams went through a VERY weak ECF. Probably some of the weakest in recent memory.

I do agree LBJ has had insane numbers, but even when he reached the NBA finals, did anyone really have any faith he would win? Again, I just threw Mac out there because of similar career numbers and his injury. It was mostly just a comparison of IF LBJ were to never win or were to get a lingering injury that derailed his career. That's all. I do see where you might have thought I was comparing the two and siding in favor of Mac.

It's just my preference to either have longevity with career accolades or titles.

I chose Larry on obvious reasons first. DR.J came in 2nd due the fact that he was LBJ of his era with his physical dominance. he was the TRUE first human highlight reel. Not to mention he was straight DOMINANT in the ABA his first 5 years. Elgin came in at 3 due to a 27-14-4 career stat line(given though that he did play a combo forward role). Nique came in at 4 due to a terrific scoring year, help in revolutionizing the sport with his athleticism and jaw dropping highlights. 15 years of 30+ mpg didn't hurt his cause. Pip came in 4th due to the fact he was a 6 time champ, countless all-D teams, an all-star game MVP and never once missed the playoffs. He also was the originator of the point forward. Guys like LBJ,Pippen, and Iggy wouldn't even exxist without Pip. LBJ would probably come in somewhere between 6 and 9 I'd guess. Probably 6th actually.

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I also agreed that I felt it

I also agreed that I felt it was just too early in his career to count him. I said he'd be ineligible for the time being. No slight toward Bron, just still too early in his career. even with his already incredible resume.

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No Rick Barry or John Havlicek?

If you are going on career accomplishment, those guys were pretty live. Still, I think your observation on LeBron not deserving 2 MVP's due to other players not winning MVP's is incredibly flawed. I see little reason why he should not have won both of his MVP's, particularly seeing that he won 65 and 61 games while putting up his usual monster numbers. You can say you do not respect his MVP's due to his coming up short in the post-season, but I think he definitely deserved both.

When Tracy McGrady had his best statistical season, his 32 ppg in 2002-03, his team won 42 games. Tim Duncan's won 60. In 2001-02, the other time T-Mac came in 4th in MVP voting, Duncan was outscored by .1 by T-Mac, not to mention his win total being 58 to 44. As far as KG "probably winning the WCF if not for Kobe and Shaq", well, he got there one time. Once. T-Mac never. Yes, it sucks that they played in a stacked Western Conference, but I never saw the Wolves as a serious title threat. Had Shaq and Kobe not been there, than they would have had to play the Spurs in the WCF, and good luck there. One other thing is, if T-Mac hadn't begged out of Orlando in 2004, he would have played with Dwight Howard. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess, but I feel like you can make all the excuses you want for their lack of play-off success when they were in the West, they still were not as good as LeBron James, especially not through their first 8 years.

LeBron's road through the East in 2007 was weak, but he made it through. The Pistons were pretty overwhelming favorites and he came back from being down 2-0 in the series. Also, as far as "Mac having better individual seasons", besides the 32.0 Magic 42-40 season, name another. Look at LeBron James seasons before claims of "nut hugging" by the media for giving the award to the best player on the best team for two years in a row. Believe me, you and I have seen MUCH worse MVP's than LeBron James the last few years. Kobe Bryant clearly should have more than one MVP in my mind, but I do not think his only winning one means that LeBron should not have won the ones he did. I mean, who should have won the MVP in those years? It is a regular season award, not the end all be all, but I think you really have to have something against LeBron James, or at least a better reason than "Well Kobe only has one", to tell me LeBron did not deserve his MVP's.

The reason I saw you siding with McGrady would be in claiming that, "I can't feel right putting him on and leaving off T-Mac". How am I supposed to interpret that? Does it mean that if you put LeBron on the list, you had to leave off T-Mac? Does it mean if you were putting LeBron on the list, you had to put T-Mac at SG? Does it mean if you felt like LeBron was a top 5 SF, that you would put T-Mac in front of him at SF? I mean, that statement leaves a lot of questions unanswered, and I do not understand how you do not understand how that could be interpreted as maybe meaning one of the things I listed, lol. It is all good man, I am not hating on you, there is no animosity, but I feel like you are off base on some of your observations on LeBron. I do not think that he and Tracy McGrady have much in common, and I think that people who feel like McGrady was indeed a better player have very little evidence to back it up. It absolutely seems like a personal preference and while I am fine with that, slighting LeBron James with things that apply WAY more to T-Mac seems to be a weird way of comparing the two.

LeBron has luckily been very durable, and while many have listed his weight as being something slowing him down, he appears to be in fantastic condition and has never played in fewer than 75 games over his first 8 seasons, which is pretty awesome. He shoots a fantastic percentage from the field, and his 3 PT % and FT % were incredibly close to those of T-Mac (33.7-32.9, 74.7-74.4). He is better as a rebounder, passer and defender and has been for a majority of his career in every discipline. I agree that people felt T-Mac was headed for greatness, but I guess what I am trying to say is, after his first 8 years in the league, he was not in the same stratosphere as LeBron James. You can blame his situation, blame the media, blame Grant Hill, blame anyone, but I think the simple explanation is, LeBron was better than T-Mac when he was at his best, hence the reason he is thought of even more highly than T-Mac after only 8 years in the league.

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What I meant by not putting

What I meant by not putting T-Mac on there was going on a short amount of time dominating. Nothing more. I wouldn't have felt right using only using an 8 year career to be in the top 5 ALL-TIME. Not enough longevity. Thats all. T-mac was just the first name that came to mind. As you mentioned Grant Hill, he was another player that came to mind shortly after, but he was never the individual scorer of the other two along with only short amount of time dominating. It was just a name that popped up. And I've never gotten to see Hondo. Rick Barry I honestly just didn't think about him to tell you the truth. I actually thought he was a two guard.

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PG - Magic Johnson, Oscar

PG - Magic Johnson, Oscar Roberston, Jason Kidd, Isiah Thomas, Steve Nash

SG - Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Jerry West, Allen Iverson, Dwayne Wade

SF- Larry Bird, Lebron James, Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Dominique Wilkins

PF- Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki

C- Shaquille O'Neal, Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlin, Hakeem Olajuwon

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hard to leave him out

The point guard position could be the toughest of all of the 5 to pick a top 5, its so deep. I've looked at everyone's posts and I think Steve Nash only made the cut twice. I didn't even include him. That's a tough list to crack for a guy that deserved three straight MVP's. Is it that he has no rings? I think when its all said and done, we might want to re-think that one and include him at least as #5 if not higher

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The point guard position

The point guard position could be the toughest of all of the 5 to pick a top 5, its so deep. I've looked at everyone's posts and I think Steve Nash only made the cut twice. I didn't even include him. That's a tough list to crack for a guy that deserved three straight MVP's. Is it that he has no rings? I think when its all said and done, we might want to re-think that one and include him at least as #5 if not higher

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As much as I love Steve Nash and respect everything he has done on the court the PG is just stacked at the top. You're completely right it is just so deep. I mean few will argue Magic and Oscar at #1 and #2. Past that it's hard to leave out the NBA career leader in assists and steals in John Stockton. Isiah Thomas is possibly the best little man to ever play the game, the driving force behind two Piston championships and a 4 time member of the prestigous 20/10 club. Jason Kidd is a 10 time All-Star, 9 time All-NBA Defensive Team member, 3rd all time in career triple doubles and second all time in career assists, steals and third in three pointers. Bob Cousy revolutionized the way the game was played, led the league in assists for 8 straight years, was a 10 time All-NBA first team selection and won an MVP award and 6 championships for the Celtics. After that Walt Frazier and Gary Payton are the greatest defensive point guards that ever lived and combined their defensive efforts with great scoring and passing ability as well.

Steve Nash is one of the greatest passers ever and is arguably the greatest shooting PG (if not player) of all time but I think what really hurts his case, moreso than not having won a championship yet, is his lacklustre defence. Nash has always been a terrible defender even more than guys like Magic and Zeke who were never lockdown defenders in their own right.

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PG 1. Magic 2. Robertson 3.

PG
1. Magic

2. Robertson

3. Stockton

4. Kidd

5. Isiah Thomas

SG
1. Jordan

2. Bryant

3. West

4. Gervin

5. Iverson

SF
1. Bird

2. Erving

3. Lebron James

4. Baylor

5. Pippen

PF
1. Duncan

2. Barkley

3. Malone

4. Nowitzki

5. Garnett

C
1. Chamberlain

2. Abdul-Jabbar

3. Russel
4. O'Neal

5. Olajuwon

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