The Name on the Front of the Jersey and Is Athleticism the most Overrated Variable in prospects
I feel that alot of the players that go to bigger named schools are overrated. Imagine if Steph Curry went to Duke he would be projected so much higher. Athletic, Athletic, Athletic, that's all i ever hear guys like Bird weren't jumping outta the gym but he was one the best ever. I think scouts focus on it a bit too much.
True like Rodney Stuckey great player little college a big name school would of made him a top ten pick
The comment about Bird is valid but it's a bit of a different game now. If you are not an athlete you had better be really tall or a dead eye shooter. I don't think Curry would be higher if he player for Duke. I feel that he would be exposed and over shadowed and still probably be projected as a mid-first rounder.
There are plenty of guys that were "the next Larry Bird" or "the next Dirk" and look at how they've panned out(*cough*Adam Morrison). There are only a handful of great players in the NBA right now that aren't athletes. My argument against Stephen Curry is if he was playing at Duke, I doubt he'd be putting up these stats anymore, and no one would be talking about him as much. Or he'd just be a shooter like JJ Redick, and he was a late lottery pick and hasn't done anything at all in the NBA yet.
What do the following players have in common?
-Kareem Abdul Jabaar
Yes, once every ten year someone like Tim Duncan shows up with no athleticism and just great size and skill and they do fine. But I would never mention Duncan with the names seen above.
Athleticism is paramount. The jersey name gets you recognition, but I agree; Duke and UNC have sent a whole bunch of failed prospects to the NBA recently (Reddick, Williams, Motorcycle williams, Marvin Williams, Felton, McCants, May, soon to be Hansbrough/Lawson/Ellington/Green...although Lawson has a shot at being a Ronnie Price kind of backup)
ty lawson was probably the best player in one of the two best conferences in the nation...he is just that complete...he's nice
I wonder if some of the people on this site even WATCH basketball. midnightrider you almost had a post that was making sense until you got to the middle and then its painfully apparent that at most you catch a basketball highlight when your switching channels between CNN and the cartoon network. Kareem was no better an athlete in his prime (or younger) than Duncan, and Tim Duncan will be a hall of fame player like all of the players on your list, so his name CAN be mentioned with those. I wont even start on the failed prospects comment because your a HATER and even if that comment has merit you couldnt defend it because you obviously dont have the basketball knowledge to post anything relevent. They need a HATERS forum so people can go there and post crap like "all carolina players suck" and "blake griffin sucks" and "ricky rubio is euro and he sucks" and leave the BASKETBALL forums to those who watch the game and understand the game and are fans of the game and have valid, knowledge based post to share that can spark up good b-ball debates.
Duncan can not. Case and point. Move along doom.
I gave an example of two power schools who have produced bad prospects recently: Duke and Carolina. And yes, I hate their recent draft picks because THEY ARE ALL BAD. Being bad is a legitimate reason to hate on someone.
And, if you had learned to read in grade school, you would notice that I said the following:
"Yes, once every ten year someone like Tim Duncan shows up with no athleticism and just great size and skill and they do fine" Not knocking Tin Duncan- he won 3 championships. But in terms of individual athletic ability, nobody in their right mind would prefer him over Wilt or Howard or Kareem. All three are more athletic, albeit potentially less skilled than him, and could beat him in a one on one matchup, sans the Spurs incredibly well coached team.
Doom, check this out:
Thats a highlight reel of Kareem in his prime. Notice how he takes off with one foot and changes his body in midair to complete his skyhook. That kind of leap just doesn't exist in Duncan's game and their athleticism can't even be mentioned in the same name.
I would like to reiterate that Duncan is a great player who leads and wins championships. But he does it with a good short jumper, deft ball fakes, and possibly the best fundamental post moves in the league (Al Jefferson close on his heels). He never dunks the ball and does not play above the rim; sure he gets his points off of clever layups and when its all said and done, 2 points is 2 points. But, as I said in the above post, without Gregg Popovich, Tony Parker, Manu and the supporting cast of Spurs that make up the only role players in the league that actually play their role, Duncan alone can't compete with someone like Dwight Howard.
That leads to my original point: the best players ever were the most athletic. Yes, tons of people bust based on sheer athleticism(this year's bust will be Aminu, who has no real position in the NBA), but every once in a while you land a miracle pick like Howard or Rose that will be the cornerstone of a franchise for their entire career.
you think Dwight Howard will have a more prestigeous NBA career then Duncan.
you think Dwight Howard will have a more prestigeous NBA career then Duncan.
Once again, nothing but respect and admiration toward Duncan.
But, Howard just became the youngest player in NBA history to grab 5000 rebounds. The 20-14-3 stat line he is putting up this year could be the baseline for the next ten years of his career and that wouldn't be too far fetched. I think he still has a couple obvious areas for growth: at the foul line and with a midrange game. Obviously he will never be a knock down shooter or anything remotely close to that, but if he had any sort of midrange game, he could easily average 26-27 pts a game. And, if he could hit 70% of his free throws instead of 60%, knock that average up to 27-28
Howard has a legitimate shot at collecting the most rebounds in NBA history and possibly a shot at the block title. Yes, Howard may never have as many rings as Duncan, but that is not an individual effort. Duncan had all kinds of help along the way and a mentor in David Robinson to bring him along. Howard's personal, statistical achievements will surely trump Duncan's in the long run.
Here is the link proving my reference:
What a lot of the players that you guys mention have is skills.
Athleticism helps but there are a lot of very athletic players in the NBA but they are not very skilled.
The good or great ones are very skilled. Duncan, Magic, Bird, Isiah, and Shaq are not the most athletic guys but they kill with their skills.
Nightrider- I agree with the name on the Jersey and the Duke n UNC thing. But TIM DUNCAN WILL go down as the best power forward EVER!!! Period... You do realize he won a champioship as a rookie without Manu, and TP? Don't knock him because he's probably the most complete player in the NBA. Also, don't say that he had help and someone mentored him either... What is Patrick Ewing doing with his life right now? Who is his mentee? That BS shouldn't matter though, its what HE did and he's done a great job.
Larry Bird was just a rare player that will be at least 50 to 100 years to duplicate. Because of the success of him a non-athletic white dude, EVERYONE is ready to put the tag on the next white hype that comes out... A huge problem in my book...
And Gerald Green is one of the most athletic players in the NBA what is he doing in life? Or Jason Richardson? I'm saying this because athleticism doesn't always = success. Does it give a player an advantage YES but not the only thing that matters. You named all these players but forgot to name the John Stockton, Magic (wasn't a great athlete), Karl Malone, Pistol Pete, Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, or The Dreams of the league... Players that didn't have elite athleticism but in their day was one of the best (if not the best) at their position... WE can go one for one on this athletic debate TRUST I will win...
Doom- You are so right about everything (a bit much with the criticism) but Kareem is a better athlete than Timmy...
CTHAO9- Where have you been in the last 15 years? Shaq was the LeBron James of the NBA before LBJ.... Strong, Athletic, UNSTOPPABLE.... He's slowed down because he's 40 lol... but none the less was considered a physical spicimen in his hay day.........
Tim Duncan is not actually a power forward. Tim Duncan is a center. He guards opposing centers and posts up versus them. Why is he called a PF? Because when he was drafted, David Robinson was already the C for the spurs. Tim Duncan is a C.
Don't believe me? http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=0215
Try again next time.
Also, when Duncan was a rookie, he had Robinson to mentor him as well as Popovich. Does Dwight Howard have someone like that? No. He has Stan Van Gundy, who may be Ron Jeremy.
I also NEVER KNOCKED TIM DUNCAN!! Quote: "Once again, nothing but respect and admiration toward Duncan."
I was merely comparing Duncan to Dwight Howard, which you were unable to refute.
Also, I love the players on your list: Mailman, Reggie Miller (actually he got into a fight with MJ, so he is worthless), Patrick "the human sweat gland" Ewing, Pistol Pete. They are all great players. Now compare them to my list of people like MJ and Wilt. They don't even hold a candle to them.
Lets break this down further. Best players of all time at their position:
PG: Currently a debate between Issiah Thomas and John Stockton, two skilled unathletic players. But, at the end of Chris Paul's career, a PG known for his speed and change of pace athleticism, will probably unseat both of them (20ppg coupled with league leading assists and steals. Complete player. We can answer this question in 10 years)
SG: Michael Jordan. He has a sneaker logo with him dunking for the love of god. Athleticism
SF: LeBron James. Say what you will about Bird, who has the legacy, but think about what LeBron's legacy will be at the end of his career. He is one of the most athletic people of all time. Another way to handle it is this way: who would you bet on in a 1 on 1 matchup with both players in their prime? LeBron or Bird. Easy question.
PF: Impossible debate to answer, especially now that you are aware that Duncan is a C. If he was a legit PF, I would have him here of course. I would throw out KG as a possibility, another player with amazing athleticism and size, but there are plenty of others.
C: Wilt Chaimberlain: Sheer unadulterated athleticism.
What I'm trying to say here is that while skills are sufficient to be the greatest at your position, athleticism is necessary.
You can't be serious.... Can we all agree to the people that watched a basketball game the past 10 years that Tim Duncan is considered a Power Forward? Can we all agree to that? The Center now thing DON'T matter... He WILL go down as the BEST PF ever.... What is there to debate about?
The MJ and Wilt thing... I think its so funny that you said Karl, Reggie, Ewing, and Pete... but forgot to mention MAGIC and LARRY? LOL... MJ, Bird, Magic, Wilt will walk thru the door TOGETHER as the best ever... So stupid you are.....
Chris Paul is considered a young Zeke.... Don't get that argument....
Also, LBJ is a physical spicimen.... But Larry wasn't a slouch... I would love to see that matchup with those 2... Not to say LBJ isn't going to be better but don't say he is right now... He still has a lot to prove...
Dwight Howard has PATRICK EWING thats why i said what is Parick doing in his life right now? LOL... Dwight haven't proven anything but he can dunk and block a few shots....
WHAT IS GOING ON? Do you guys look at websites and catch highlights on ESPN and try to make assesments on players? Did you forget a lot has changed in the league?
That Wilt was the tallest player in the NBA and they didn't have a 3 second rule? When he scored 100 pts that his team fouled the other teams players to give him the ball back? Not to mention a 6'6 rookie was guarding him?
Or now that Wade, LeBron are living in an era where "hand checking" is called at a high rate? Compared to a Magic or a Jordan?
I'm saying this because people are only remembering what they see a couple hours ago instead of KNOWING whats been done!!!! Know your ish before you comment on anything please....
Player A 6-9 265
Player B 6-9 220
Arguably similar skillset. Who wins?
Don't get this one wrong.
And I'm not knocking the players you mentioned. But they didn't use athleticism as their main source of ability. Thats my whole argument, seeing as you have not followed this post from the beginning.
And yes, lets get into the Zeke vs CP3 argument:
To preview this, let me say Zeke was amazing. An awful, horrible person, but an amazing basketball player. You seem to think I have some bone to pick with them personally, but I'm merely analyzing them as players, not trying to degrade their accomplishments.
Here is Zeke's best statistical season:
1984-5: 21.2 ppg, 13.9 apg, 4.5 rpg, 3.7 TO/g, .458% fg, .257% 3-pt fg, .809% ft. from basketball reference
Here is CP3's current season
2008-9: 22.1ppg, 11 apg, 5.4 rpg, 3 TO/g, .498% FG, .345% 3-pt fg, .872% ft.
Turn Overs: CP3
Field Goal %: CP3
3 pt. %: CP3
Free Throw %: CP3
Are you noticing a trend here? The 13.9 apg for Zeke that year was much higher than his usual yearly average, clearly an aberration. And here is the kicker: that was Zeke's BEST season. We still may not have seen CP3's best season.
Now that you have been mathematically disproved, realize that you just sound foolish by making statements without evidence.
Night rider... Google this "best Power Forward ever" and see whose name comes up...
You posted again before I finished my last post. What has Dwight Howard done aside from dunk and block shots?
How about become the youngest player in league history to grab 5000 rebounds? Once again, if you had read the entire post, you would know that I already stated that. Once again, sophomoric.
Stats and highlights are the only things you guys go by? Did I mention the hand checking rule? Zeke's era and CP3 era? LOL... funny you are my young son....
Im not saying Chris Paul isn't a beast but he is compared to Zeke... Paul won't be considered anything unless he wins a ring.... STOP jumping the gun...
I saw Bob Huggins and he said CP3 is going to be one of the best PG's ever... BUT he said "GOING" to be... Stop the wishful thinking people and let these players at least get to 10 years in the league before you start their hall of fame ballots.... Sheesh...
Especially if you were in the NBA str8 out of high school... LOL... It doesn't matter!!!! Your career means damn near NOTHING if you don't win a ring... Dwight hasn't won a playoff series much less to be considered in the same breath as Tim Duncan... WHAT? Im going to stop writing because you are wasting my time....
Obviously, officiating was different back then. But that is mitigated by the fact that your average NBA player is stronger and more athletic now then they were back in Zeke's days. Thats not a refutable fact, as I'm sure you know as a fan of the league.
So we are back to stats, which don't lie. CP3 may draw more silly hand check fouls, but he is blowing by faster people and shooting over taller, stronger people.
And i've noticed you have yet to rebut the Howard or James vs Bird argument. Still gotcha there pal.
And, I've mentioned several times these players I'm talking about are in the early stages of their career. Thats why in my other post, I said the following: "20ppg coupled with league leading assists and steals. Complete player. We can answer this question in 10 years"
I was merely proving statistically that you are not very intelligent and lack the mental capacity to argue on multiple fronts.
Furthermore, its interesting that you say: "Paul won't be considered anything unless he wins a ring". Then why is he a household name? Also, while I highly respect the ability to win a championship, basketball is not tennis or golf. It is a team sport. It depends on your organization, coaching, and teammates. Has Kobe won a ring without Shaq? No. Did Scottie win one without MJ? No. Chris Paul is stuck on a team that features David West and Tyson "one good season" Chandler. Nobody else on that team has all that much upside, so it will be a while until he is competitive enough to knock off the old guard of the west.
You've demonstrated you can't throw the heat, so I'll leave you with that.
sense of reason!
In other musings, when do we think the blazers are gonna be ready to really contend for a title? I'd love to see Roy in the finals.
I rebuttal the Dwight Howard... And the CP3 thing they were the same height and weight!!!! quickness and all that....
You have yet to rebuttal the fact that Tim Duncan is the best power forward ever, or that Ewing is helping Howard, or the fact that MJ, Bird, Magic, and Wilt CAN be mention in the same breath.... Tim Duncan has 5000 rebounds what are you saying? Dwight plays on a team with Rashard Lewis as a PF... And shoots a high volume of shots.... Sheesh its not that impressive....
At the end of the day I will leave you all with this....
TO BE CONSIDERED THE BEST at ANYTHING!!! You better have the hardware to prove you are the best at your sport anything less is a disappointment....
NO RING NO ARGUEMENT!!!! Thats what you play for, that is what you are measured by....
I didn't realize that english was your second language. I'll leave you alone, its not fair to you to try to argue with a native speaker, who knows that "i rebuttal *noun*" is not proper english. Get a translator and I can continue.
This is your argument? At the end of the day "I've wrote a rebuttal" to everything you've said... LOL that's better?...
This is the best you can do? You can't come up with a more brilliant way to win an argument than to criticize my grammar? Just proves that you are more than a joke than I thought....
Back to my last statement, until anyone of them wins a ring, your argument about athleticism is NON-VALID.....
but it seems like you 2 got it going pretty thick.....i still think Timmy was a comparable athlete to Lew Alcindor (Kareem for the youngsters)
let me start by saying i love d howard and that i dislike the spurs. tim duncan does play center now, but for the first 7 or 8 years of his career he played pf. he is the best pf ever. dwight howard is a monster. his 20 14 & 3 is amazing, but its been done before. this is for everyone that watches highlights and stats. go back to when alonzo mourning played with charlotte. similar body type, similar type of game, and similar numbers. i am NOT saying zo is a better player but just be careful with stats arguments. also congrats to howard for youngest to 5000 rebounds. but wilt did it in fewer games. athletes dominate the game today, but you have to get it in the nba. you have to know the game. kobe, lebron, and wade are the top 3 candidates for mvp. they know how to get it done. the reason they are the top 3 is because their athleticism. players like d howard and cp3 are right there too. again superior athletes that get it. but, if you get it and aren't a top shelf athlete, you can still be great ala tim duncan
my point is you have to get it to be a great player, combined with athleticism you can be the best.
I understand the guy speaking to you doesn't have any reliable information to back up his claims, so I'll provide some:
Thats a short list I found of great athletes who never won a championship. I'm sure names like Elgin Baylor, Dick Butkus, and Alex Rodriguez probably don't mean much to him, but to most other knowledgeable sports fans, they do. Ask him this question:
Tuck, basketball is a______ sport?
He will probably reply something along the lines of :"LOL Bruce Bowen won 3 rings with the spurs, he is the greatest evaaaa!!"
So, yes championships are great, but they are not entirely dependent on one player. One player CANNOT win a championship in modern basketball, baseball, or football. Lets use some easy examples:
MJ had Scottie and Phil Jackson
Kobe had Shaq and Phil Jackson
Tim Duncan had David Robinson and Popovich
Tim Duncan had Tony Parker and Popovich
Bird had Walton and Red Auerbach
Also, let him know that he didn't rebut the LeBron argument (which player would you take, A or B) or the Dwight Howard argument (rebounds mean nothing yo!). Also, remind him that he completely missed the point of my height/weight argument with CP3 and Zeke. Zeke was just a little bigger, and I know that, but he fails to realize that my argument was not about their respective height and weights. It was this: the CURRENT average size/athleticism of an NBA player is GREATER NOW than it was in ZEKE'S TIME, which NEGATES the silly hand checking rule. Read that to him, twice, I'm getting bored of explaining lines of reasoning that my dog could understand.
Trinajoe- I totally agree, and if you see my first post, I list all players with immense skills. Gerald Green can jump out of the gym, but he will never land a starting job. As I was trying to explain to Tuck, to be the greatest ever, skill is sufficient, while athleticism is necessary. Jordan wouldn't have been famous without his explosiveness, for example.
i agree jordan, kobe, lebron will be better remembered and more highly thought of because of their athleticism. while guys like b roy, carmelo, and ginobili will be remembered as really good players because they are not on the same level athletically.
I dont care how fast or how much high u can jump i will take knowledge of the game and skill over being athletic. People are talking about how dwight is youngest 2 reach 5000 rebounds and watnot but he has no rings. I kno he is young but i dont see his career being better than duncan. Tim has sumthin dwight may never have..........rings. Tim has been there, he has hit the clutch shots, and made the key plays. Whether tim had help or not he won and he's a smart player. Shaq doesnt have just amazing hops but wat does he have...rings. I honestly dont think dwights career wil be close to shaq. and i hate shaq
You are so annoying... You are like my mentees always trying to prove themselves...
You found 3 articles from? suite101 and listaholic.com? You can't be serious and call this information vaulable content... You seem like an educated man, give me some RELIABLE sources... These websites you had to dig for is so low even for you....
I never said they weren't great... WHICH every article you seem to find states. I SAID you can't be considered the BEST!!! BEST= excelling all others, Great= remarkably skilled... I never said CP3, LeBron, or Howard wasn't Great, just stated they wasn't the best or can't be considered the best...
This is just logic... Something LeBron, Howard, and CP3 will agree on... They can't be considered the best at anything if they didn't win that ring. Don Nelson has the most wins out of all active NBA coaches. Is he better than POP or Phil? No!!! So at the end of the day, regardless of what you say a ring does matter!!!
Its what you play for every year!!! A player don't say I'm trying to win MVP, or pass Wilts numbers and then say I've done my best I'm about to retire.... No!!! They say I'm trying to win a championship... Thats why players like GP and Karl Malone will go to the Lakers to win one... They KNOW!! Its dumb A$$ fans like you who seem not to understand... Its part of your legacy...
LeBron could break every record, but if he doesn't win a ring, people wouldn't think he's better than Jordan....
Every player had help!!! Even the players on that list not having a ring had help... Malone had Stockton, Reggie had Jackson and Smits, Chris Paul have David West (an ALL-STAR), Dwight has two all-stars, LeBron got 4 of them on his current roster... So WHAT is your point with that?
And the taller stronger people crap with Zeke and CP3... It was 6'11 and 7 foot players back then!!! Who owns the record for the most block shots? What era is that? What was his height? Come on!!! You are freaking horrible and Im getting a little hot now.... Because this stupidity isn't called for....
The information was simply googled site to demonstrate that there are plenty of amazing players who have never won a championship in their respective sport. And as for your attempt to discredit my information, remember you have yet to provide any. Still waiting on that.
Let me quote you: "Its part of your legacy"
This argument is not about legacy. Obviously if you win championships your legacy will be tremendous. We are talking about overall ability to play basketball. You take the names we have been talking about and put the SG vs the SG or the PF vs PF in a one on one matchup. Who has the ability to win? It will be the stronger, faster, more athletic player. Among the top names we have mentioned, ALL have basketball IQ and ability or they wouldn't be mentioned on these message boards (a la Gerald Green).
While I shouldn't be surprised at this point, Tuck has once again been unable to grasp the concept at hand, unable to provide any type of statistical information, and has a very poor grasp of the English language. If you are straight out of Africa like Hasheem Thabeet, that's fine and I understand. If not, I would highly advise that you get a GED, because flipping burgers is not the best way to go through life.
Best of luck Tuck.
Night-I've read through your comments, and a lot of things you said are true. However, Magic IS, without a doubt, the greatest PG of all-time and would you really call him an athletic freak? LeBron probably will be considered the best SF, if not player of all-time, but for now Larry Bird is the greatest SF of all-time and he isn't a big time athlete. Lastly, Tim Duncan is the best PF of all-time. Don't give me that "oh well he had a great team crap" because Karl Malone had John Stockton and how did that work out for him? What I'm trying to say is, athleticism is VERY, VERY important. It will get you on a bunch of ESPN top-10 plays. But, will that really win you a championship? Dwight Howard, a specimen. Probably will be the best center in the league (I still have hope in Oden) but that doesn't mean anything. I would take Tim Duncan over Howard in a heart beat. To be quite honest, I don't give a **** how many records Dwight breaks. Does that mean he will have a better career than Tim or Shaq? If Wilt had rings he would probably be considered a better player than Russell. But, he doesn't and thats why you could make the case of why he isn't the best center ever.
[QOUTE]Lets break this down further. Best players of all time at their position:
C: Wilt Chaimberlain: Sheer unadulterated athleticism.[/QUOTE]
NIGHT RIDER. I would take Bill Russell over Wilt everyday of the week. IN Wilt's 50 points 25 rebound season, he was not even the MVP. Bill Russel was. Bill Russell has 11 NBA ring in 13 year plus his championship in college with USF(San Fransico).
I would take Duncan over Howard one and one, because Duncan has a better, shot, handle and basketball IQ. He would be too smart and cunning for Howard.