share

Murray / Booker

SlickBouncePass
SlickBouncePass's picture
Registered User
Joined: 10/16/2015
Posts: 639
Points: -349
Offline
Murray / Booker

Devin Booker and Jamal Murray were two of the youngest guards in the draft in their respective years. I am not much of a stats guy, I like to watch the players play.

Devin Booker may not have had enough opportunity to showcase his strong IQ, but Jamal Murray showed his potential throughout Kentucky. The Sixers color commentator Abdel-Naby said Murray was his favorite player last year, a better guard than Kris Dunn and Buddy Hield both...

To me, sticking around in College is important to develop your body or if you've had poor coaching up to college. Guys like Booker and Murray are already savvy players who just need to develop their bodies. They know how to create space, pumpfake, when to drive, when to shoot, what a good shot is, proper pacing, who needs the ball at what time, basically, smart guard play. This high IQ stands out even at 18 years old with underdeveloped bodies, and shows itself in the NBA.

I liked Murray as a better prospect than both Hield and Dunn, I thoguht he could do more on the floor. People knacked him for his athleticism, thats like knacking Isiah Thomas for his size. Some guards just know how to play.

Confusing why Hield or Dunn or would be taken before Murray, or Mudiay or Hezonja (oozing with physical potential and a decent shot) gets taken before Booker, a high IQ guy that can do virtually the same stuff better but maybe can't dunk as hard.

Its may not be so obvious to GMs during those drafts, but its definitely something you have to learn from. Choose the players that can simply play.

This year's draft I see Monk as the Hield or Dunn mistkae if he's taken earlier than expected. I see Ball as the Murray/Booker guy with some slights but high IQ. I think the league has gotten smarter in that they'd take Ball over Dennis Smith, but let's see how it shapes up.

Just wanted to give shout outs to the Young Guards that may not be fully developed but clearly understand how to play. Murray was very impressive against the Sixers yesterday. Someone posted an article about his work ethic too, the kid is impressive!


r377
r377's picture
Registered User
Joined: 12/28/2010
Posts: 2661
Points: 7781
Offline
I think me, hype and few

I think me, hype and few others were quite high on Murray.

As for Booker, NO ONE could predict that he would be putting up nearly 20ppg in only his second season and if they did I would love to see a link to their prediction.

Booker had potential, but was a bit raw and many of us thought he would take some time to develop. Before we all jump on the Booker bandwagon claiming he is the next Ray Allen, his shooting % aren't that great

SlickBouncePass
SlickBouncePass's picture
Registered User
Joined: 10/16/2015
Posts: 639
Points: -349
Offline
true about Murray

but isn't it interesting that NBA GMs saw more potential in the athletic Dunn and shooting and experience of Hield? Isn't it interesting that bottom feeders like Minnesota and New Orleans (so confusing with Holiday and Tyreke Evans and Gordon), would select Hield over Murray? Thats all I'm trying to point out, how are these "experts" so bad.

As far as Booker, he definitely had foundations man. You could see his shot. He was young and undeveloped body and that was the only thing that held him back. He didn't all of a sudden learn to play the game the right way in one year in college. Mel Kiper always says the one thing he doesn't have that NFL GMs have is the ability to interview the player. Well, if I privately worked out Booker and saw he had all the tools, I'd take him.

If I privately worked out Kobe and saw he had everything at 6'7'', I would've taken him over Iverson, and I love Iverson.

It comes down to taking the guy with the highest IQ, strongest mind, and having to lessen the athleticism factor in the NBA. It matters to a point.

About Booker's shooting%, he is still learning how and when to take shots on that really wierd and young team with no veteran help. I woudln't penalize him, rather their offensive system and the team's structure overall. The kid clearly can play and was a steal at 13.

Again my Sixers input, Miami purposely tanked to avoid giving us their pick and picked at 10, I think it came down to the last two games of the year. I would've taken Booker at that point, picking at 10 for the Sixers. I would have taken him over Winslow, Stanley Johnson, Cauley-Stein, Hezonja, Mudiay, Oubre, Lyles etc...basically anyone except for Myles Turner after the top 5. Yes, I would've taken 17 year old booker over the over-hyped Justice Winslow.

Andv1 Waiting
Andv1 Waiting's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/11/2016
Posts: 306
Points: 509
Offline
Serious question:

If you had the chance to take John Wall lite or J.J reddick/Eric gordon lite who would you take?

Because if you look at it this way, intial projections had Dunn and Murray like this:

Dunn was considered to be similar to John Wall who went number 1 overall and is deemed a franchise player.Dunn was also in high demand on the trade market at the time(teams were willing to trade up or in to get him)

vs

Murray who was projected as a J.J reddick/Eric gordon type player..Which is deemed starter/Role player on some teams..

Is Murray a better scorer/shooter right now. Yes

Is Dunn the better defensive player right now and most likely in the future. Yes

It then comes down to will Dunn become a better scorer in the future and judging by most Thibs Rookies they jump up in that department usually ever season(except tony snell lol)..

Which if he does further validates their pick..

As for Murray over Hield totally agree Murray will be better than him.. I see Hield almost like a Nick young type player: scores ineffciently and gets hot at times to put some points up in a hurry...

VS

Murray who could be a nice version of J.J reddick which is a good thing as he will be a longterm starter somewhere when he gets the chance.

losnopesos
Registered User
Joined: 12/18/2014
Posts: 178
Points: 550
Offline
UK fan, watched all of their

UK fan, watched all of their college games and I'm higher on Booker than Murray. Booker has an endless bouncy energy and isn't as much of a black hole as Murray is. Murray had a tendency to over dribble and eat the shot clock. I like Booker's strength, too.

binet
Registered User
Joined: 03/25/2013
Posts: 405
Points: 61
Offline
A lot may relate to team

A lot may relate to team personal history and choices. I think Hezonja for example was probably viewed in Orlando as a better "foreign prospect" than Fournier was few years before. They passed on Fournier in 2012 but when he came back to them he was really successful. They probably thought they undervalued euro guys potential and overvalued Hezonja because of that, thinking they outsmarted everybody taking 'better Fournier' at 5.

Concerning Murray his international success and role with team Canada at such a young age should have bumped him up a lot.

Hield was a College star and a fan favorite, plus the guy is very loveable, that probably rankes him elsewhere as a bankable prospect, given that even now he easily get hyped and loved by everybody. I don't know by what margin but I think that had a big role. The individual Kobe workout probably helped even if just hype.

Andv1 Waiting
Andv1 Waiting's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/11/2016
Posts: 306
Points: 509
Offline
Murray vs Dunn/Hield and D-book

The knock on both Booker and Jamal-Their defensive capability/potential and can they become a 2 way player..That is why they slid unfortunately..

Both can score the ball and do it a very nice way-Hence the Klay comparrison for Booker and J.J Reddick/Eric gordon comparrison for Murray..

But it comes down to is: Fit with teams come draft

Dunn fits Thibs the best out of Hield,Murray and Dunn that is why he went 5th. He plays defense,He is like a John Wall Lite at this point and they needed a better PG than Rubio for the longterm growth of the team(Dunn will probably come on stronger next season)..VS Murray who can only really play SG,which they had Zach lavine so would kind of been a wasted pick for them..

Murray should have gone 6th not Hield..

Personally that is the only redraft for 2016 I would have done as Murray would have looked really nice with Davis,Jrue and getting those kick out 3's.. Vs Hield who honestly seems like a bit of a Chucker(whos shooting mechanics look worse than murrays).. But I think they took Hield due to longer wingspan and they thought he was more NBA ready...

As for Booker that draft was stacked he could have gone anywhere from 5th-14th pick..

Magic-Went with best two way SF/SG(combo wing) in the draft. Booker would have possibly been similar to Evan F who they already had+ they had a log jam at Sg then..

Kings-He would have been perfect here also, but due to their failed SG's I am glad he didn't go here.

Nuggets-Needed a PG..

Pistons-Also would have been perfect in Stans system.But I think they needed a SF Draft was done before Tobias came over though..

Hornets..Who knows what they were thinking with Frank K...But I guess they needed a PF..

Heat- Had D-wade and took best available SF and Justise if developed right also has high potential.

Pacers-Needed a big+ Miles turner has worked out for them..

Jazz-Log jam at the Sg so took best available big

Which left the Suns at 13..Thankfully he did as that means he got to show the player we see today..

But if you look at Booker could have realistically gone 5th,6th,8th,or 13th. Don't worry though Booker will be better paid than all of those picks come RFA time though lol

SubZero
SubZero's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/30/2010
Posts: 2418
Points: 5049
Offline
Also a UK fan and also a

Also a UK fan and also a bigger fan of Booker than Murray, but also a bigger fan of Murray than Hield (although I like OU too because I was born in OKC). One of my friends lives in NOLA and loves the Pels, and I was really hoping that they would have picked Murray (also wish Minny would have picked up Murray just to watch my Kentucky guys together). I think he can shoot it just as well, or at the very least almost as well, as Hield and is a better shot creator and playmaker. He took over for Canada in the FIBA game against the US and made Anthony Bennett look like the perfect pick man on the PnR.

I think what made Hield and Dunn get picked first is because of what Hield did last season (and Damian Lillard showing picking Seniors in the lottery isn't a terrible idea), and because of Dunn's athletic and defensive advantages that he has over Murray. And Booker was just held back (like a lot of guys) at UK. If he was given more opportunities, I don't doubt he would've at least gone top 10

StephGoneSteph
StephGoneSteph's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/17/2016
Posts: 38
Points: 159
Offline
"Choose the players that can simply play."

I think his might be an oversimplification. There's plenty of examples of guys who were drafted on potential and panned out and lots of guys who were great college players who couldn't translate. I think its just really really hard to know how a player will develop. Scouts can look at how good a player is now and how much potential he has and try to infer from that, but they're still be going to wrong pretty often. I think if you look hard enough you can find plenty of examples to support the "draft potential" or "draft good players" strategies.

Look at Giannis for example- a guy who hadn't really shown anything on the court against good competition, but seemed like he would develop well. Andre Drummond and Deandre Jordan are good examples too, guys who weren't that good in college but were drafted almost solely based on potential. The Bobcats probably aren't super excited about picking MKG over Drummond even though MKG was a much better player at that point.

Hield is a bad example too, there's no doubt that he "could simply play" in college.

SlickBouncePass
SlickBouncePass's picture
Registered User
Joined: 10/16/2015
Posts: 639
Points: -349
Offline
they have to have potential too

Hield was a senior shooter, I don't think he has the overall handle and guard play game to last in the NBA. Obviously this requires more than watching one or two seasons, you evaluate a player through high school and see whether he "gets it". I think there is an obvious difference between Hield and Murray.

I was high on Murray from the start, and Hield was streaky and limited.

There are guys that can play in college, but either don't have the athletic ability period, or the understanding of nuances that show in their game of how to get open etc.

Thats what you gotta look for. Its not about comparing all guards, its about getting the draft order right.

Dunn was a junior in college and was selected likely because he projected to be a westbrook type player. They're still different, Dunn and Murray...its like comparing Mudiay to Booker.

But overall guard play, as far as overall impact on a court, you gotta take Booker and Murray.

StephGoneSteph
StephGoneSteph's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/17/2016
Posts: 38
Points: 159
Offline
I dunno man

Seems like you're pretty good at justifying picks ex-post. Who you got for next year then? Would you take Frank Jackson over Monk or Fox? How about TJ Leaf over Josh Jackson or Jonathan Isaac?

StephGoneSteph
StephGoneSteph's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/17/2016
Posts: 38
Points: 159
Offline
I dunno man

Seems like you're pretty good at justifying picks ex-post. Who you got for next year then? Would you take Frank Jackson over Monk or Fox? How about TJ Leaf over Josh Jackson or Jonathan Isaac?

holefillers1
holefillers1's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/12/2015
Posts: 860
Points: 1213
Offline
I thought Murray and Hield

I thought Murray and Hield would suck. Murray has proven me wrong with his ability to get his shot off. Still don't see much else from him. Half of his shots are 3's and he is streaky. Buddy needed four years in collegee to get his numbers up. Undersized specialist, when his shot is on. I still Like Dunn. He is athletic, plays tough D and will begin to attack the basket when he gets comfortable in his role.

Hitster
Hitster's picture
Registered User
Joined: 08/17/2010
Posts: 6012
Points: 6790
Offline
Murray/Hield/Dunn were very

Murray/Hield/Dunn were very much a toss up who would go in which order. If there is one rule that a GM looks at in drafting, I've always assumed it to be upside. So if you use that logic the younger Murray should perhaps have gone before the other two guys before you consider the hype surrounding any hot Kentucky prospect.

However Hield and Dunn might have been considered more NBA ready and teams like NOP and T-Wolves who were hoping to push on may have gone for what may have been considered at safer pick.

With Cal having such a production line at UK, sometimes it is hard to know who is hype and who is legit in his one and done centric production line.

Personally I had Hield going to T-Wolves as I thought he could be the perfect 6th man impact scorer that most teams need. But it's not hard to dsee why Thibs took Dunn given Dunn's defensive reputation.

I must admit that Murray has been the most impressive so far and Dunn a bit of a disappointment.

RSS: Syndicate content