Moses vs Karl
i was watching highlights of all time great players careers..i know i have one question..who is the best Malone to play in the NBA?
Moses is better and very underrated one of the greatest centers to ever play that rarely gets mentioned ... he outplayed Kareem in that 83 final outrebounding him 72-30 ... he could rebound and score .. he could hit free throws and stepped up in the playoffs something Karl could never do ... 3 time MVP 12 time all star and Finals MVP ...
Yea Moses might be the most underrated superstar/HOF'er ever. He was a monster on the boards could score and wasn't a huge guy maybe 6'10 230 in his prime. Moses gets ignored for how great he was because he played at a time where the greatest to ever play the position was going strong. Keep this in mind , Moses was HS to the pros back in the 74-75 season and his 1st season in the ABA he averaged 18.8ppg and 14.6rpg. Karl Malone can't hold Moses jock strap!
Didn't start watching basketball until about 1991 so I missed out on Moses Malone for the most part. I think I may have seen him play in an exhibition game in 1990 for the Hawks, although I don't really remember him. He sort of hung on for a long time so lots of fans didn't see his early years, just his later years like one of his final years with the Spurs.
Karl Malone was great too, though in his prime, from what I gather, Moses Malone was THE MAN.
Moses Malone took a 40-42 team to the NBA Finals against the Celtics in 1981.
This was a seemingly easy question until I read some of the comments above ^... I had no idea that Moses won a ring with a squad that was 40-42 against a much more favored opponent. I would put him just behind Elgin Baylor as the most underrated NBA player of all time.
That being said, I'm going to go with Karl Malone, he is 2nd to only Kareem in points scored, he averaged at least 23 points and 8 boards for 15 consecutive seasons and took the Jazz to the finals 2 years in a row. The mailman was an absolute nightmare to guard.
Dis here Karl Malone was built for the regular season that is why his numbers were so awesome. 0 championships for Redneck Karl and on top of that Moses won a title and made the finals is 1981 when Kareem , Bird , and Magic arguably 3 of the 5 or 6 greatest players to play the game were in their primes. Yea I know Karl got beat by Jordan but he had his shots when the Rockets won it and still failed. Clutch factor goes to Moses and on top of that his position was tougher to be great at and he is considered the best rebounding big man ever in my eyes and many others.
So Karl's numbers were awesome because he was simply "built for the regular season?" Does that have any substantive meaning at all?
You act as though Moses went up against God and Karl went up against nobody besides the two Jordan years. Those Rockets teams that Karl lost to included a few good players as well. Hakeem, Clyde and a much better supporting cast than the Jazz had was not exactly a freebie series. Karl eventually did beat that team in 1997, only to lose to the Bulls in the next round.
The difference between Karl and Moses was not regular season vs. post season ability. It was not about who was "clutch." Like Karl, Moses had several opportunities and could never pull through. Moses won a single championship in 1983. His team included Julius Erving, Andrew Toney, Maurice Cheeks and Bobby Jones--it was one of the best teams ever assembled. They didn't struggle at all in the playoffs--they routed every team they faced and they swept a temporarily disfunctional Lakers team in the finals. Other than that season, Moses failed in each attempt in the playoffs. Had Moses not landed on that stacked 76ers team, he'd also have no ring. That doesn't mean he wasn't one of the greatest players ever--it means that aside from that one year he was never part of the league's best team.
Go through one of the common lists of "greatest playoff performances ever" that can be found all over the internet. You'll see half a dozen examples of games where Karl Malone was a monster in the playoffs, including the finals. At the end of the day, Karl and the Jazz were never good enough to beat Jordan and the Bulls in a seven game series. Moses and the 76ers would have been destroyed by the 1997-1999 Bulls as well. It wasn't about "clutch." It was about timing.
You mean the Karl Malone that averaged over 29 ppg during 5 different playoff runs? The Karl Malone that never averaged below 20 ppg during a playoff run until he turned 39 (19.6 ppg )?
Karl was clutch and stepped up. Jordan's Bulls were just better.
I see a lot of it in this thread. It's surprising how harsh some people are in their criticisms of Karl Malone. Look at the stats before spouting off with nonsense. Karl and Moses were both amazing players--I'm not certain who was better. But it's clear they were both amazing. Consider the stats:
Moses: 20.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, .8 spg, 1.3 bpg, .495 fg%
Karl: 25.0 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.4 spg, .8 bpg, .516 fg%
Karl played for 19 years, Moses played for 21. Karl never missed more than 2 games in any season he played until his very last season. He missed a total of 49 games over the course of his 19-year career. Moses was sturdy as well, but over 21 years he missed about 4 total seasons to injury.
The biggest knock on Karl is his lack of a ring. However, people forget that although Malone was great for 17 years, the Jazz were only great for about 3 years. They had almost no one outside of Stockton/Malone until around 1995 when they got Bryon Russell and Jeff Hornacek. In that first full season with decent role players, the Jazz lost to the Rockets in a tough series and failed to make the finals. The Jazz were the best team in the NBA that year, but they choked. The next two seasons the Jazz went up against the Bulls twice. That Bulls team was more than just MJ. Those two Bulls teams are statistically rated as the #1 and #3 NBA teams to ever take the court. The Jazz team that lost was rated as the #7 team all-time.
It is what it is. The Jazz failed to win the big one. But acting as though that means Karl was some overrated, bum is ridiculous. He was great, as was Moses. Karl happened to be on a team that reached its pinnacle at the worst time imaginable. He led the #7 team to ever suit up. Unfortunately, he did it during seasons where the #1 and #3 teams ever assembled were also playing.
Nobody is being harsh on Karl. Simply people think Moses was the better player maybe not by much but still a better player. Who did those greatest team rankings btw? No damn way that Jazz team that lost to the Bulls is considered the #7 best team of all time sorry.
"Karl Malone can't hold Moses (sic) jock strap!" To me, that's degrading. And that wasn't the only example, though it was the worst.
Whatever you think of Moses, Karl was a great player. If he wasn't better than Moses, he was very close. They are two all-time greats. Tearing down one great is no way to push another up.
Maybe you are more comfortable on a thread that is only positive "Curtis Martin" style. I am sorry I hurt your feelings for degrading Karl Malone , get real I am degrading Karl malone that is funny stuff. I simply stated an opinion and a strong one at that for my feelings that Moses was a better player in my eyes. I will try to be wishy washy and overly nice towards all parties being discuseed from now on , haha! I wonder how many of you on here are old enough to had seen Moses and Karl both play for the good parts of their respective careers? Or do most of you not know Moses before the end of his Hawks days or later and therefor only saw Karl during his prime years compared to Moses at the twilight of his. If so you can't really comment and have a legit opinion on who was better. Based on how some are just annointing Karl the better player makes me think that is the case.
Legitimate criticisms of a player is fine, but back it up with something besides your vague notion of a reality you never saw with your own eyes. If you didn't witness these guys play, do some research. Don't merely degrade players with ad hominems in your zeal to win a point.
In my first post I noted the individual stats of Karl/Moses to analyze how they performed over their career. Karl's were slightly better, but they were close. I never watched Moses play in his prime, so I looked up some youtube footage to see what I missed before making a judgement call. After watching it I was unsure who the better player was (compared to the talent they played against at the time). So that's what I said--my educated guess was that they were on a very similar plane as players.
In your first post you mock "Redneck Karl" and vaguely point to Karl having a "regular season build," which somehow made him a person that could accumulate stats, but lacked some unidentifiable "clutch" gene. I imagine you did this because you dislike Karl and have a hard time otherwise explaining away his insanely impressive stats. You then go on about how incredibly clutch Moses was, based on nothing but your vague sense of his soul.
Go as negative as you want. I'm not offended by negative, low IQ posts. I just genuinely believe that in this case we're comparing two of the all-time greats and that the unsubstantiated criticisms were irrational.
Wah! We have some sensitive &$#%#&@! on this board I see. How am I mocking Karl Malone by calling him "Redneck Karl"? His name is Karl and he is a redneck. Especially the fact he is a redneck and black which is not the norm and he is a redneck that played in the NBA another non norm. Actually I did back up Moses being clutch and the better player by the fact that he won a championship during a window in time when the Celtics and Lakers were crushing everybody and on top of that I second the 1981 finals he went to with a team that was 40-42. Moses was better at carrying his team. Explain to me any times Karl Malone was Clutch in big games where he was the underdog? Karl is considered in large part as great as he is because of the fact he was the iron man of the NBA yet showed little in the playoffs. Where did I say I dislike Karl? Oh I didn't because I made a joke and called him "Redneck Karl" means I don't like him huh? Pull your head out of your @$$ and stop acting like this is the freaking sports reporters , FYI you are not Bob Ley no matter how much you think you are.
I can speak from seeing both of them in their primes. I was old enough to have seen Moses in Houston but I am from the East Coast and Houston was never on TV here. When he went to Philly I saw him pretty much the rest of his career, from 82 on. Philly was always on TV here. There just was no way to deal with Moses in his prime. A man amongst boys in a league full of men. Even in ATL he was a beast and he was past his prime.
I think I am sentimental towards Moses because of the way he played. I mean that guy earned his paycheck everytime he stepped on the floor. Karl was a guy I just loved to hate, I thought he was too arrogant. I didnt like Utah. I just hated him and Stock too because of that damn pick and roll, they made a lot of my favorite teams look so stupid. What I could not deny though is, moreso than anyone else...Karl was to me, the prototype PF of the ages. I mean Barkley was more talented IMO, but what separates the two is, Karl put that work in off the floor and Barkley didnt. Karl Malone is a great example and model for a kid wanting to be a PF today, the problem is, I dont know anyone who even looks like they can be another Karl Malone (or Moses for that matter). While watching him, I never remembered thinking he was overated at the time. He really gets an unfair rap because he doesnt have a ring. Out of all the players that didnt get one, I think he deserved one the most because of his effort off the court and his loyalty to his team, something you dont see that much today.
As a fan, I love Moses Malone. I was never a huge Karl Malone fan.
From a pure basketball perspective....I think Moses was better, but then again, it still goes to what you like as a spectator. Moses just worked so darn hard....jesus. He was an absolute workhorse. Moses was just a great talent, a special talent and one of our greatest rebounders.
Karl Malone was special in a different way. He may have played just as hard on the court but he made it look effortless. Both of these guys are underated a tad but Karl moreso. Karl is still underated someways. I wont post my argument now, but I believe there is a strong case to be made Karl was the best PF of all time, not Timmy D. (and I am a bigger personal fan of Timmy than Karl) Part of the reason is I dont believe Tim was a PF but should be ranked as a C.
Anyway, Malone was a very good shooter and a monster on the fastbreak. He was a great rebounder and made a good 2nd income at the FT line. Where he probably gets slighted is his defense. He was a pretty good defender.
We are comparing two all time greats so its really hard, and I watched them both play growing up...even though I never saw Moses in his pre-Philly days. That being said, once again, I think it comes down to a matter of opinion. You can make a case for either....I dont think its clear cut either way....I just favor Moses....because individually I think he could do more.
Clearly Moses not debatable
Moses had no weaknesses at least in terms of what you ask from a big man
Karl could not rebound, could not defend except for slapping the ball and pulling the chair lol.
your joking right? oh wait...
You are clueless. If you think Malone not good at rebounding.
Malone (Karl) had better career rebound average than...
Nowitski,Kemp, Chandler, Z Randolph, Bosh, Brand, Ben Wallace, Lambieer, Webber, Ewing,Camby Buck Williams, Gilmore and Lanier.
what people dont realize is, even though it takes and extreme amount of talent and coaching to win a title, it takes a large amount of luck and timing as well. To say Karl Malone was only built for the regular season (assuming this notion because he didnt win a title) is utterly ridiculous. Its a lot of circumstance involved. I hate the simple ring arguments.
While I think that Karl had a little more help than given credit for sometimes....it was actually his teammates more than he that werent built for the postseason. It was Houston's athletic exploitation of the Jazz's backcourt that got em in Jordan's absense. The Jazz were a fundamentally sound and well oiled offensive team but they struggled against bigger more athletic backcourts.
If Karl really wanted to win a ring, he probably shouldve went somewhere else, but you cant blame him for staying either. Utah was great to him and they had really good teams, but the West was pretty darn good and then you had Chicago coming out of the East. Karl definitely is underated due to him not winning a championship.
10 rebounds a game in 37 minutes is around average maybe not saying he was a horrible rebounder but compared to good players he was, especially considering the personnel he played with over his career most were not very good rebounders either it did not seem like. If you play PF in the NBA for big minutes it is impossible to average less than 7 rebounds a game, Juwan Howard was one of the worst rebounders in NBA history and still got 8 a game in his prime
The one thing people are missing if you just look career numbers is Karl did age very well, Karl was a better player at age 34+ but no comparison at the top of their games.
The two are fairly close in my mind. I would give a slight edge to Moses but that is neither here nor there.
I think this is worth sharing though, Bill Simmons comment on Moses and rebounds.
Imagine a quality prison basketball game where players had to maim each other to get a foul. This game included one guy with perfect instincts, light feet, super tough, uncanny [email protected] Bilas, all the positioning tricks, always knew where the ball was going. Now imagine this guy loved crashing the boards , lived for it. Then imagine the warden told him in a prison game if you get 40 rebounds in 40 minutes you will be paroled.
Moses played every game from 1978 to 1983 like that.