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Monta Ellis is underrated

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"whats the argument

"whats the argument here?"

Warriors fans want to believe that their team is loaded with talented and bound for greatness despite showing no ability to willingness to get the stops necessary to actually win games. It is probably a result of following a team that has one playoff appearance in the past seventeen years, but anytime a person thinks a team was wrong to let C.J. Watson leave or that Dorell Wright and Reggie Williams are anything but guys on a roster they should be fitted for a straight jacket.

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"Warriors fans want to

"Warriors fans want to believe that their team is loaded with talented and bound for greatness"

I've said many times in this thread we don't have a lot of talent and are average at best. Read before you write. All numbers that affect EVERY NBA player show CJ Watson, Wright and Williams are all capable NBA players. You'd be surprised to find out guys like Melo and Kobe are not efficient and hurt there team when they take 20+ shots. Look at TS% not PPG, assist ratio not assists , rebound rate not rebounds. It's natural for people to shun what they dont understand, but dont write it off as BS when you dont know much about it.

Jnixon said advanced stats dont take into a lot of variables. They dont take in a players situation and who they play with but they do take into account almost everything

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If by Advance stats you mean

If by Advance stats you mean per then i agree with who ever think that its bull ish. You can't really tell how good a player is by there per. Ive seen many guys who's per looked good when they didn't play many minues but when they did they didn't do much better then when they weren't getting minutes

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Let’s recap

Let’s recap

“People need to realize how good [Monta Ellis] is now, he's the 3rd best SG in the NBA behind Wade and Kobe. In fact he is actually having a better season than Kobe and about equal to Wade. -Nateoak

“I just think [Ellis and Rose] have a similar skill set, neither are true PGs, blazing speed, great athletes, good mid range shooters, both developing 3 pointers, above averagish defenders, both are at there best driving to the rim. But Rose IS better. The supporting casts, Bulls frontcour is way way way better.” -Nateoak -

“David Lee and Steph Curry” -In response to a comment about Monta Ellis having legit All-Star players, tada… Nateoak

“I've said many times in this thread we don't have a lot of talent and are average at best. Read before you write. All numbers that affect EVERY NBA player show CJ Watson, Wright and Williams are all capable NBA players.” -Nateoak

“DWright is terribly inconsistent and he's the only one outside of those guys that has provided much.” -Nateoak

“Dorell is a legit candidate for MIP, Reggie is playing better than Crawford is right now as well” -Also Nateoak

-----------

So you have bounced around with your comments with no consistency other than you think Monta Ellis is good because he has pretty numbers and discounting the large collection of losses. Fine.

As far as C.J. Watson being a capable NBA player, if you think a bad defender who plays selfishly at the point and repeatedly takes bad shots when on the floor is a capable player, then you must find great capability in bad, losing basketball.

See, you have to understand that I know numbers, but all know that in the absence of context that the analysis of statistics leads to the kind of nonsense that you have been spewing about Dorell Wright being an MIP candidate, Monta Ellis being one of the best players in the league, and the Warriors having three All-Stars but not enough talent to be better than 13-20 and probably would be at best a .500 team in your world. Oh, and C.J. Watson is a capable NBA player despite being a huge flop now that he is in a real NBA system. You can have every statistic at your fingerprint, but it doesn't make you have any clue as to what they mean in the greater context of understanding talent or the difference between a winning team and a losing one.

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Have you seen C.J. Watson for

Have you seen C.J. Watson for the Bulls? He's not good. The Bulls play horrible nearly every time he's in the game. He's a 3rd PG at best and honestly is really a D-League or overseas player. And he was a guy you wanted the Warriors to keep, and a 10.5 ppg and 3 apg player on 47% from the floor for them. With the Bulls? 5 ppg and 1.8 apg on 38% from the floor. That should show you that the Warriors system inflates numbers. Look at Anthony Randolph in New York. Corey Maggette in Milwaukee. Dorell Wright now on their team. There is all kinds of numbers that show that Golden State's style of play inflates players numbers.

"You'd be surprised to find out guys like Melo and Kobe are not efficient and hurt there team when they take 20+ shots."

Are we talking "Golden State Warrior" bad or perennial contender, NBA title bad? I don't know, I'm confused.

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“People need to realize

“People need to realize how good [Monta Ellis] is now, he's the 3rd best SG in the NBA behind Wade and Kobe. In fact he is actually having a better season than Kobe and about equal to Wade. -Nateoak

True

“I just think [Ellis and Rose] have a similar skill set, neither are true PGs, blazing speed, great athletes, good mid range shooters, both developing 3 pointers, above averagish defenders, both are at there best driving to the rim. But Rose IS better. The supporting casts, Bulls frontcour is way way way better.” -Nateoak -

True

“David Lee and Steph Curry” -In response to a comment about Monta Ellis having legit All-Star players, tada… Nateoak

Okay, this has to do with what? Supporting casts? You think Acie Law, Rodney Carney, Radmonovic, Amundson and Jeremy Lin are good supporting players? Or even Gadzuric? And yes Noah and Boozer murder Lee and Biedrins. Biedrins literally sucks at everything other than rebounding. Boozer is a better scorer and defender than Lee is.

“I've said many times in this thread we don't have a lot of talent and are average at best. Read before you write. All numbers that affect EVERY NBA player show CJ Watson, Wright and Williams are all capable NBA players.” -Nateoak

Capable, not great or good. For example Keith Bogans is a capable player

“DWright is terribly inconsistent and he's the only one outside of those guys that has provided much.” -Nateoak

He is inconsistent, thats a fact (except he's had a incredible 3-4 game run lately , 23 PPG, about 6 boards and 49% on 3's

“Dorell is a legit candidate for MIP, Reggie is playing better than Crawford is right now as well, ” -Also Nateoak

He is playing better than Crawford, given Crawford is injured but he's a much more efficient player (it's not even close, Reggie is a plus 60 on TS and Crawford is low 50's). Any player putting up the averages and rates Wright is getting is a MIP candidate . He's not consistent but either way he has the numbers to show he has improved enough to be a MIP candidate

To Nixon

CJ isn't playing mainly cause he's one of the worst defenders in the NBA under the most defensive minded coach in the NBA, lack of playing time has effected his rythm. This shows from his TS dropping to 48 , that doesn't happen from being in an offense that happens from a lack of time and chemistry. Radmonovic had the same thing happen to him, he fit in really well with the Sonics and Lakers as a shooter. Goes to the Bobcats and all of a sudden becomes a horrid 3 point shooter, that happens from chemistry and confidence. Anthony Randolph was constantly benched here and was not a good scorer. really low 50's and high 40's in TS, thats horrid. His stats were far from inflated. We already talked about Maggette, he's scoring as well as he ever has efficiency wise, but he sucks on defense so Skiles benches him. We never inflated Jackson, Richardson, Pietrus , Barnes (who was nothing before coming here and played just as well elsewhere), Tolliver has produced well when healthy in Minny, Baron's assist ratio is still good (he got fat though and was good before he got here), already talked about Crawford, Harrington got better when he left, don't forget Mike Dunleavy was here when Nellie was for a bit and was better in Indy (a lot better)

Think of it this way, if Kobe would stop chucking the Lakers would be a 65 win team easily, not a maybe 60 flat team. Bynum, Pau, Brown and Odom are much much more efficient scorers and they'd be better off if Kobe gave some of his shots to them. Same goes for Melo. Denver would no doubt be a top 3 team in the west if they fed Nene more. He has the highest TS in the NBA, he takes about 7-9 shots a game and score 15-17 PPG to simplify it. He's an elite post scorer

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lake show

Per36 numbers arent very good, only should be used for players close to 36 minutes a game. 30 and up really, if you look at Stromile Swifts per36 it'd probably look solid, but theres a reason he doesn't play 36 minutes.

Advanced stats are TS (true shooting), PPR (pure point rating), RR (rebound rate ), eFG (effective field goals), AsR(assist ratio) etc etc

Per numbers are not advanced

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"CJ isn't playing mainly

"CJ isn't playing mainly cause he's one of the worst defenders in the NBA under the most defensive minded coach in the NBA, lack of playing time has effected his rythm. This shows from his TS dropping to 48 , that doesn't happen from being in an offense that happens from a lack of time and chemistry"

Watson is getting legit backup minutes, that's not the problem. He's just not playing good, because he's not very good. All that "he's not confident" stuff comes when you're not good. Watson is going to suck again next year, if the Bulls keep him around, because he's not good. He's just another player for the Warriors putting up realistic stats as he gets away from Golden State.

"Radmonovic had the same thing happen to him, he fit in really well with the Sonics and Lakers as a shooter. Goes to the Bobcats and all of a sudden becomes a horrid 3 point shooter, that happens from chemistry and confidence. Anthony Randolph was constantly benched here and was not a good scorer. really low 50's and high 40's in TS, thats horrid. His stats were far from inflated"

Anthony Randolph put up 11 and 6 for the Warriors last year, and now is putting up 2 and 2 rpg with a bunch of DNP-CD's. How can you say his stats weren't inflated?

"We never inflated Jackson, Richardson, Pietrus , Barnes (who was nothing before coming here and played just as well elsewhere), Tolliver has produced well when healthy in Minny, Baron's assist ratio is still good (he got fat though and was good before he got here), already talked about Crawford, Harrington got better when he left, don't forget Mike Dunleavy was here when Nellie was for a bit and was better in Indy (a lot better)"

Pietrus' production went down after he left the Warriors and played for the Magic, Jackson proved he could put up stats on bad teams and borderline playoff teams alike, and Barnes has proven to be a role player no matter where he's played. He played for the Warriors when they made the playoffs too, and has shown that he can get the same production on other playoff teams. Harrington got better because he was in Nelson's doghouse all the time, and he proved he could produce elsewhere on bad teams anyway. Look at his numbers for the Nuggets though, a winning team. Decrease in minutes and production. Mike Dunleavy had 1 fluke good year, and otherwise has been hurt and only average as a player. I don't see how the Warriors system isn't a gimmick. You said yourself that it was, but now all of a sudden it's not? Doesn't add up.

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JNixon why do you have so

JNixon why do you have so much hate for the Warriors mate??

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"JNixon why do you have so

"JNixon why do you have so much hate for the Warriors mate??"

I don't hate or really even care much about the Warriors. I'm just giving my opinion about everything.

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It doesn't matter what system

It doesn't matter what system you play in, To put up any decent numbers in the NBA you deserve to be there, so what if CJ Watson played good for the warriors and not so much for the bulls, Reggie Williams is a former D-Leaguer so what. He's doing his bit for the Warriors and would be quite serviceable for any other team. There are plenty of other players who have gone to teams apart from the Warriors and started playing well and and times where they've fallen through and played not so well.

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Monta Ellis is not underrated

Monta Ellis is not underrated iin my opinion. He shoots alot of shots in a run and gun offense with no limits and scores 26 per game, The same offense that the D-League, callup whose name escapes me at the moment, player who averaged 15 plus last season. And they aren't even good at it. At least the Knicks win some games with a similar structured offense.

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Watson gets 13 MPG

Not legit minutes, thats hardly anything

His stats look the way they were cause he got more playing time. By rates if had the same minutes in NY he'd have similar numbers. Here he was viewed as part of our future so he got minutes simply off that despite him being a dumb arse half the time. He doesn't fit into what NY is doing either, he was really brought in as Melo trade bait. NY wants shooters everywhere then Amare in the paint a lone, like what Orlando is doing with Dwight. AR is still a dumb arse and doesn't deserve minutes over Chandler and Danilo and Amare. Here he competed with , well no one and still couldn't get consistent minutes.

Jackson put up good numbers in Charlotte, the slowest offense out there. Infact he scored better than here, Pietrus got less shots up cause he had to share with Nelson, Dwight, Lewis (a chucker), Barnes, Reddick, and Gortat. Here he had Baron, Jack, Monta, and Harrington.

What are you trying to prove with Barnes? My point was those guys produced mainly just as well if not better or close to it elsewhere, you proved my point . Harrington was only in the dog house in the time leading up to his trade, otherwise Nellie used him a lot, in Denver he's mainly a backup SF to Melo and an occasional PF. His better position is SF since he's not a good rebounder. When you increase anyones usage there stats will rise, thats a proven fact. His usage was at an all stime high in NY and is pretty low in Denver. With Melo and Billups and Lawson he doesnt need to be a key guy. Usage % proves this, his rates mainly stayed the same. Dunleavy's TS% is very very good, he's a good scorer and always has been in Indy , he soft as a puff ball but can score effectively. Here he sucked , there he's been really efficient. Throughout the entire thread I have clearly denied were a gimmick, when did I say we were?

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. That callups name was

. That callups name was Reggie Williams, the Knicks do have a better team though, Warriors backcourt is stronger but the Knicks frontcourt is quite strong. Stoudemire, Chandler and Gallinari. Warriors have Biedrins as their starting centre, and he's nothing more then a serviceable backup. Everyone on that Knicks starting 5 has some offensive ability. While the Warriors are carrying an injured David Lee and Biedrins with no offence whatsoever.

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Yea, Williams

They probably do have the better frontcourt. And a better team, but it isn't that big a margin to be honest. The Warriors are just a horrible team...the Knicks play to win, the Warriors, it seems, play for stats.

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player who averaged 15 plus last season.

Reggie Williams, he did that in 20or so games. Hes not good enough to be a 15 PPG guy for a whole year

Actually our offensive efficieny is in the better half of the NBA, were good at it but we suck on defense, thats our shortcoming. Our offense isn't super good but its productive

NY's offense is more similar to Don Nelson's offense. Run lots of shooters out there with 1 guy in the middle. Baron, Monta, JRich, Harrington,Jack and Biedrins is a similar set up to Felton, Fields,Douglas, Gallo, Chandler and Amare (not talking about how good they are but a similar set up. )

We dont have an identity right now, a common complaint from W's fans. We try and run with Monta and Stef but then randomly walk it up court and give it to Biedrins or Lee in the post and it takes us out of our natural game. The appropriate name for our offense is called the flex offense. 2 bigs up to by FT line, SF and SG on wings and PG up top, depeding on the play 1 big stays high and 1 low and a wing will come off the other bigs screen. Thats what it technically is.

Monta last year was only behind Melo in shots per game, around 24 -25. This year its around 20 -22. He's taken less shots and still scores as much or more.

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Compare the rosters Guards:

Compare the rosters

Guards: Monta, Curry, Williams, Law, Lin as to Felton, Fields , Douglas Azebuike (he''s still hurt though )

Edge: W's

Bigs/SF's: Lee, Biedrins, Amundson, Udoh,Gadzuric, Radmonovic, BWright, DWright as to Amare, Gallinari, Chandler, Turiaf, Williams, Mozgov and Randolph.

HUGE edge to the Knicks.

Coaching edge is also in a massive favor to NY. A horrible team is Sactown. The W's when they have there medium 3, and there starting lineup healthy we have a winning record. To bad thats been 13 games, Lee missed tonight against Orlando along with Biedrins. Radmonovic and Amundson started. Ew.

Off topic: Jammin, remember that background thread? Did you do them all or not all of them in the thread?

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"Not legit minutes, thats

"Not legit minutes, thats hardly anything

His stats look the way they were cause he got more playing time. By rates if had the same minutes in NY he'd have similar numbers. Here he was viewed as part of our future so he got minutes simply off that despite him being a dumb arse half the time. He doesn't fit into what NY is doing either, he was really brought in as Melo trade bait. NY wants shooters everywhere then Amare in the paint a lone, like what Orlando is doing with Dwight. AR is still a dumb arse and doesn't deserve minutes over Chandler and Danilo and Amare. Here he competed with , well no one and still couldn't get consistent minutes"

13 mpg is around standard for a backup PG. Especially one that plays behind Derrick Rose. His stats look the way he does because he's not very good. Plain and simple. If he played 27 mpg for the Bulls, his shooting % would still be terrible and his PG skills would still hinder who he's on the floor with. He's not good. It's showing now too.

And nothing you're talking about has anything to do with anything. Randolph's stats were clearly inflated. Compare last year to this year. No player's stats drop that drastically without major injury unless their stats were inflated in the prior situation.

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"It doesn't matter what

"It doesn't matter what system you play in, To put up any decent numbers in the NBA you deserve to be there, so what if CJ Watson played good for the warriors and not so much for the bulls, Reggie Williams is a former D-Leaguer so what. He's doing his bit for the Warriors and would be quite serviceable for any other team. There are plenty of other players who have gone to teams apart from the Warriors and started playing well and and times where they've fallen through and played not so well."

It doesn't matter to YOU, but it does obviously skew you guys' perceptions on what is a good player and what is not. Reggie Williams would be an expendable end of the bench player on the vast majority of NBA teams, and C.J. Watson sucks and has proven that for the Bulls. Just because they are/have put up empty stats doesn't mean they should be playing legit minutes, in some cases it doesn't make them a legit NBA player. Whether any of you want to acknowledge it, the Warriors suck. They suck and have for a good bit. Just because players are putting up stats doesn't mean they are truly good. There are plenty of examples. And a bunch of those examples comes from y'all favorite team.

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I'm not even a Warriors fan

I'm not even a Warriors fan lol. Not even a massive fan of them. But to average 15pts over 20 games is still an decent effort, no matter who you are or who you play for.

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"But to average 15pts over 20

"But to average 15pts over 20 games is still an decent effort, no matter who you are or who you play for."

Not really. If you never averaged more than 8 ppg before, it because a gimmick.

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"Throughout the entire thread

"Throughout the entire thread I have clearly denied were a gimmick, when did I say we were?"

Oh you have? Really? What about: "Don Nelson is gone, not involved, non existent, done, influence destroyed etc. It's not Nellie Ball and its not the same offense. Watch us and you could clearly see that."

OR

"Our pace under Nellie was always top 2, thats a gimmick."

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What difference does it make

What difference does it make what you've averaged before? thats a stupid and bizarre argument mate. It does not matter what the offence is, 15ppg in the NBA is a decent effort no matter what way you look at it. You still have defense to score on.

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How stupid is it? Were

How stupid is it? Were talking about a pro player at the end of the day, if you let a pro play the way they want, unless you're talking about an absolute scrub, they will be able to get numbers. There are a bunch of guys who have got inflated numbers and then sucked when they actually played on a competitive team. Him averaging 15 ppg doesn't mean he's really as good as his numbers. Now is it a stupid argument to make a former guy who couldn't even stay in a rotation on a team with struggles on the wing "a decent player" when he had proven otherwise 6 different seasons? Or is it stupid to understand that there have been other players who have put up big stats, been apart of bad team, and then have only played worse when they actually were on a good team?

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Your inflated numbers don't

Your inflated numbers don't work. CJ Watson's per 36 minute numbers are slightly higher then last season. Stephen Jackson is getting higher per 36 as well. Anthony Tolliver is putting up per 36 equal to last season. Reggie Williams stayed the same as well. Does that mean CJ Watson's numbers this season are inflated? Stephen Jackson's went up pretty heavily and he went to a slower paced team. Reggie Williams is doing just what he was last season per 36 wise. But Dorell Wright is there now, and even his per 36 didn't go up. So what is all this inflated stuff. Have you ever considered it's the amount of minutes they played due to the injured riddled season Golden State had last season?

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What is up with everybody and

What is up with everybody and these stupid PER stats? Fact is, these players aren't very good. If they were, with all this stuff going for them, the Warriors would be a competitive team. There stats are inflated because Dorell Wright was on a good team, and he wasn't getting 15 ppg, 7 rpg, and 3 apg. Nowhere near it. Reggie Williams is a D-League call-up who would be a end of the bench player at best for the vast majority of NBA teams. Anthony Tolliver couldn't even make a roster before the Warriors picked him up, and then he gets 12 and 7. C.J. Watson is another D-League call-up who has been TERRIBLE for the Bulls. Watch these guys play, compare how they play now to the numbers they put up in Golden State and tell me they didn't have inflated stats. These guys wouldn't and don't get nearly the same production. That's why their stats are inflated. I don't give a damn about per 36 stats. They hold no weight. Sorry.

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So CJ Watson is struggling

So CJ Watson is struggling for the Bulls, okay that doesn't mean he sucks, theres been other players who have changed teams and they struggled to keep up the same level of play, Richard Jefferson last season for example. Shawn Marion is another one. So that doesn't work. If Anthony Tolliver was soo bad why were playoff contending teams trying to sign him? Why did Chicago pick up Cj Watson in the first place. He's a backup PG, just like he was in Golden State. Tolliver only started because of the injuries to Biedrins, and now he's a backup to Kevin Love. Dorell Wright didn't get caught time in Miami because of Michael Beasley and inconsistency, which he still is. and he isn't the best defender but neither are quite a few other guys on playoff contending teams. They weren't inflated stats, just more court time due to injuries. How else did CJ Watson avg 27.5 minutes a game. Or Reggie nearly 35. They're not inflated. It's acuatually less production per minute of court time then their new teams, just getting less minutes playing backups to very good players.

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"So CJ Watson is struggling

"So CJ Watson is struggling for the Bulls, okay that doesn't mean he sucks, theres been other players who have changed teams and they struggled to keep up the same level of play, Richard Jefferson last season for example. Shawn Marion is another one. So that doesn't work."

Shawn Marion and Richard Jefferson had already proven they could produce on good teams. Both made Finals appearances and were very important factors. And both, even in their off-years, were better than Watson was in his best years on a bad team. So it does "work." Watson isn't good on a team that is competitive. He never was a good player. He literally sucks right now. The Bulls are terrible almsot every time he plays PG when Rose is out. TERRIBLE. This isn't a fluke. You would think people would think his stats with the Warriors were a fluke, as opposed to his stats with an actual good team.

"If Anthony Tolliver was soo bad why were playoff contending teams trying to sign him? Tolliver only started because of the injuries to Biedrins, and now he's a backup to Kevin Love."

Because they need a filler player to be their 12th man. Maybe they were needed to meet the minimum requirement of playerson their roster. It surely wasn't to give him any meaningful minutes. Don't you find it strange that a guy comes in and gets 12 ppg and 7 rpg after another player is injured, after getting cutting by multiple teams prior to the season? Is Anthony Tolliver a true 12 and 7 player to you? Like really?

"Dorell Wright didn't get caught time in Miami because of Michael Beasley and inconsistency, which he still is. and he isn't the best defender but neither are quite a few other guys on playoff contending teams. They weren't inflated stats, just more court time due to injuries."

Wright didn't play because he was held accountable for not playing consistent D and not knowing his role for the Heat. With the Warriors, Coach Smart doesn't hold him accountable for not playing D nearly as much, thus he can play and put up as many points and rebounds as he gives up. It doesn't mean he's as good as his stats. In actuality, he's very much the same player he was in his last 2 years with Miami. Just playing for a Coach that doesn't stress winning traits.

"They weren't inflated stats, just more court time due to injuries. How else did CJ Watson avg 27.5 minutes a game. Or Reggie nearly 35. They're not inflated. It's acuatually less production per minute of court time then their new teams, just getting less minutes playing backups to very good players."

If C.J. Watson gets 10 ppg and 2.8 apg, and Dorell Wright gets 15, 7 and 3 and they have even been close to approaching those numbers ever before in the NBA, they have empty numbers. Both were/are not nearly as productive on good teams.

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Or is just means Dorell

Or is just means Dorell Wright is candidate for most improved, if you watch him play, he's been playing well. That's no fluke. You keep overlooking the injury issues, Watson is nothing more then a backup i've said that. Reggie is probably a backup SF like he is playing right now for GSW. Tolliver was actually wanted to be a backup PF who would get some 10-20 minutes, not a 12th man. You don't sign a 12th man for anything over $1 mil. On a playoff team, your right he probably isn't 12 and 7, but on a team that has no frontcourt players at all like GSW did, yes.

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I called Don Nelsons offense a gimmick

HE IS NOT OUR COACH

Is that so hard to grasp?

Were not using PER, per and PER are different. PER is player efficieny rating used by hollinger and its useless. per is a rate stat. And I dont care who your behind 13 mmpg is not standard backup minutes

"Reggie Williams is a D-League call-up who would be a end of the bench player at best for the vast majority of NBA teams. Anthony Tolliver couldn't even make a roster before the Warriors picked him up, and then he gets 12 and 7"

You have 0 proofto prove your Williams point other than your opinion. And Tolliver got those numbers cause he got the minutes cause when we got him Randolph was out for the year, as well as Biedrins, Wright, and Turiaf. He was forced to play the minutes.

"Randolph's stats were clearly inflated. Compare last year to this year. No player's stats drop that drastically without major injury unless their stats were inflated in the prior situation."

So its okay for you to say players have random drop offs but not me? Cute. But they werent inflated , he got the minutes, by per numbers again, if got the same minutes in NY as he did here he'd have the same numbers. And its well documented Nellie benched him constantly , he never even got consistent time.

"It doesn't matter to YOU, but it does obviously skew you guys' perceptions on what is a good player and what is not"

I could care less, it doesnt matter to the numbers, the numbers have no opinion. They are what they are. If they told me CJ was a super star I'd think he was a very good player. FYI Orlando offered us Bass for Watson when he was a RFA..... Not so worthless and expendable anymore? 13-20 isn't sucking, it's below average... sucking is the Kings or Nets. The FACT that when we have our 3 key guys together we have a winning record shows something, yet you still havent acknowledged it. Infact you dont acknowledge any of the facts, only your opinion. Which is terribly flawed. EVERY fact says were are no longer a gimmicky/same offense yet you think it is just off rep. Did you know were only 10th in scoring? Fine you want an example of a player going to a gimmick offense from a set one and sucking or performing just as well? Eddy Curry, Marbury, Dirk (Nellie to Avery), Kidd, and thats just a few. Want another? Devin Harris, there are tons. And by your definition Steve Nash is overrated and not that good cause he's in a gimmick offense just cause its uptempo. Is that true in your opinion (hint, if you say no your flip flopping on your gimmick saying)

"If you never averaged more than 8 ppg before, it because a gimmick"

he lead the NCAA and D league in scoring. And its completely impossible for players to improve right ?They are who they are forever? Monta has never developed a 3 pointer and cant shoot them for his life, Shaq is only a run - jump athlete and has 0 moves, Lee has no jumpshot, MJ could never shoot 3's and Tony Parker will never be a good enough passer to be a PG on a good team. By your logic all that is true

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The only 2 teams that offered

The only 2 teams that offered Tolliver an actual deal were the Wolves and the Warriors. Other teams showed interest in him, but those were the only 2 that offered an actual deal.

"Or is just means Dorell Wright is candidate for most improved, if you watch him play, he's been playing well. That's no fluke."

He's a candidate because of his inflated production. Not because he's actually one of the most improved players. You said yourself that he doesn't play D and he's inconsistent. So what has changed about him? What has improved? Werent' those always his weaknesses?

"Reggie is probably a backup SF like he is playing right now for GSW."

Reggie Williams is at best an end of the bench player. He'd be for the vast majority of NBA teams. The guy is not very good at anything except shooting spot up jumpers. He's a 6'4 SF who doesn't have a very good off the dribble game and who doesn't play defense.

"On a playoff team, your right he probably isn't 12 and 7, but on a team that has no frontcourt players at all like GSW did, yes."

And how is that not inflated? How can a player with literally no competition's stats not be inflated? Nothing your saying makes sense

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" unless you're talking about

" unless you're talking about an absolute scrub, they will be able to get numbers"

You called Reggie Williams a 12th man, aka a scrub. He got his numbers

"Because they need a filler player to be their 12th man. "

Orlando tried to trade Rashard Lewis in the offseason to let bass start at PF and then they tried to sign Tolliver to be the backup 4. You overlook so many things in making your argument

"Coach Smart doesn't hold him accountable for not playing D nearly as much"

Smart pulls players when they mess up on defense, its why Curry isnt playing 35 MPG, its why Biedrins doesn get over 30 MPG, its why Reggie Williams has seen a decrease in minutes (25 to 10-15) cause of it (to make a point, he will be back up to 20-25 again soon). It's why Udoh has taken Amundson and Gadzuric's roles. Smart has said he will take some of Biedrins' minutes as well. Again , you show you dont know whats happening with the W's you go off your opinion.

"Dorell Wright gets 15, 7 and 3 and they have even been close to approaching those numbers ever before in the NBA."

I don't like per 36 but I'll use it, the numbers he's getting now are pretty much onlone with what he was projected to get with the minutes he's getting now. His rates and play offensively have gotten better this year but it wasn't hard to see he was going to breakout with given minutes. Miami tried to resign him but couldn't . If you think 13 MPG are legit backup minutes , Wright got 20 MPG with Miami, he was a consistent mpg game by your standards . You used that to support your Hibbert claim as well, again uneducated about the player

Jnixon , just stop. All facts and evidence go against you and you are consistently wrong about players performance team to team. Youve also shown you don't know the W's well either. You know the 2007 W's well, and the 2008 and 09, but not the 2010-2011 W's. Not even close

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Reggie Williams is 6'6 btw.

Reggie Williams is 6'6 btw.

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"Were not using PER, per and

"Were not using PER, per and PER are different. PER is player efficieny rating used by hollinger and its useless. per is a rate stat. And I dont care who your behind 13 mmpg is not standard backup minutes"

I mean, neither one really matter in terms of telling how the Golden State players actually effect games. The rate that matter is their win and loss rate. And until that gets higher, there stats wil continue to be empty. And Watson's minutes are fine. He's been terrible. It's his fault he can't play more. I'm done arguing about that now. He's really not playing anywhere near good enough to justify more time as it is.

"You have 0 proofto prove your Williams point other than your opinion. And Tolliver got those numbers cause he got the minutes cause when we got him Randolph was out for the year, as well as Biedrins, Wright, and Turiaf. He was forced to play the minutes."

You want proof of everything. I mean everything can't be a per36 stat man. Anyone who understands basketball knows that Williams is a 6'4 SF who can't do much besides shoot jumpers. He's Willie Green with less athleticism and no effort on D. And Tolliver's stats are inflated even worse. He was playing on a team with literally no competition. He's not good either. He's a true bench warmer as well.

"So its okay for you to say players have random drop offs but not me? Cute. But they werent inflated , he got the minutes, by per numbers again, if got the same minutes in NY as he did here he'd have the same numbers. And its well documented Nellie benched him constantly , he never even got consistent time. "

Because he's not as good as his numbers indicate? His drop-off wasn't random. He was never as good as his stats were for the Warriors. There is no way a player drops off that far without him actually putting up empty numbers in the 1st place.

"

I could care less, it doesnt matter to the numbers, the numbers have no opinion. They are what they are. If they told me CJ was a super star I'd think he was a very good player. FYI Orlando offered us Bass for Watson when he was a RFA..... Not so worthless and expendable anymore? 13-20 isn't sucking, it's below average... sucking is the Kings or Nets. The FACT that when we have our 3 key guys together we have a winning record shows something, yet you still havent acknowledged it. Infact you dont acknowledge any of the facts, only your opinion. Which is terribly flawed. EVERY fact says were are no longer a gimmicky/same offense yet you think it is just off rep. Did you know were only 10th in scoring? Fine you want an example of a player going to a gimmick offense from a set one and sucking or performing just as well? Eddy Curry, Marbury, Dirk (Nellie to Avery), Kidd, and thats just a few. Want another? Devin Harris, there are tons. And by your definition Steve Nash is overrated and not that good cause he's in a gimmick offense just cause its uptempo. Is that true in your opinion (hint, if you say no your flip flopping on your gimmick saying)"

Ohhhhhhh, Brandon Bass. The 2nd coming huh? I bet he'd get 13 and 8 for the Warriors too. The Warriors are one of the worst teams out there. Have been for about 3 or 4 seasons now. They suck. And my opinions have been backed up with facts about all kinds of Warriors players who's stats have decreased when they've played for other teams that actually are competitive or have good coaching. I'm not just talking without giving a bunch of examples. Just because your examples suck don't mean mine do.

"And by your definition Steve Nash is overrated and not that good cause he's in a gimmick offense just cause its uptempo."

The Suns do use a gimmick scheme, but only for PG's really. And they have been a good team consistently with it. The Warriors have been to the playoffs 1 time in 7 years. There is a difference.

"Eddy Curry, Marbury, Dirk (Nellie to Avery), Kidd, and thats just a few. Want another? Devin Harris, there are tons. And by your definition Steve Nash is overrated and not that good cause he's in a gimmick offense just cause its uptempo. Is that true in your opinion"

Eddy Curry has shown his true colors already, everyone has said Marbury is a stat padder, Dirk has won before and his production has remained consistenty as has Jason Kidd. And Devin Harris has always been overrated to me. I've made posts about it. Once again, all of your examples are bad LOL.

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"He's a candidate because of

"He's a candidate because of his inflated production. Not because he's actually one of the most improved players."

he's improved rebound rates , 3%, efficiency, passing, defensive rating , eFG, and his ball handling. He has improved, and is playing defense. He's an inconsistent shooter no doubt but a consistent defender

Lets look at what team Reggie W would be an upgrade as backup SG for: Tdot, Chi, Cle, Indy, Mil, Cha, Was, LAc, Sac, Min , Utah.

Reggie is a SG, BIGD is wrong for calling him a SF.

"And how is that not inflated? How can a player with literally no competition's stats not be inflated? Nothing your saying makes sense"

It's minute inflation, not system. He was given way more minutes then he'd get on a healthy W's team . He has 32 MPG here due to INJURIES. He's a 15 MPG type of guy ,this is where rate numbers prove themselves, his numbers went up on schedule when his minutes went up . Yiu continue to ignore that, it wasnt a system thing with him, it was a minutes. This year with smaller minutes his rates are about the same excpet he's shooting slightly better

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"Orlando tried to trade

"Orlando tried to trade Rashard Lewis in the offseason to let bass start at PF and then they tried to sign Tolliver to be the backup 4. You overlook so many things in making your argument"

Yeah the Magic tried to get rid of Rashard Lewis to make room for Anthony Tolliver.....Believe that if you want.

"Reggie Williams is 6'6 btw."

He measured at 6'4 at the NBA combine. Unless of course those special Warriors powers wore off on him and he grew 2 inches since then.

"Smart pulls players when they mess up on defense, its why Curry isnt playing 35 MPG, its why Biedrins doesn get over 30 MPG, its why Reggie Williams has seen a decrease in minutes (25 to 10-15) cause of it (to make a point, he will be back up to 20-25 again soon). It's why Udoh has taken Amundson and Gadzuric's roles. Smart has said he will take some of Biedrins' minutes as well. Again , you show you dont know whats happening with the W's you go off your opinion."

If Dorell Wright is playing 24 minutes a night, David Lee 37, is playing 39, he's not pulling players a bunch for not playing D. Not nearly enough at least.

"I don't like per 36 but I'll use it, the numbers he's getting now are pretty much onlone with what he was projected to get with the minutes he's getting now. His rates and play offensively have gotten better this year but it wasn't hard to see he was going to breakout with given minutes. Miami tried to resign him but couldn't . If you think 13 MPG are legit backup minutes , Wright got 20 MPG with Miami, he was a consistent mpg game by your standards . You used that to support your Hibbert claim as well, again uneducated about the player"

Wright didn't play in games for CD, so the minutes he got where he in games he played in. Doesn't account for the games he missed for Coaches Decisions sir. Just because he played 20 mpg in 72 games out of 82 doesn't mean he was a consistent rotation player like Hibbert was. Wright wasn't playing very well with the Heat. He hasn't improved much at all, as you basically just said with those pointless per36 stats.

13 mpg are standard backup PG minutes behind a PG on a team, especially one that's winning or has a good player running the show. If you're backup is playing as many minutes as the starter, that means your starter isn't doing very well.

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You want a rate on W/L? With

You want a rate on W/L? With our main rotation we rate at 45 wins about. Good enough? '

"I mean, neither one really matter in terms of telling how the Golden State players actually effect games"

Are we special? I bet it works for the really good teams then huh?

Not athletic? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mofkCWNKVnM head just below the rim , also he's a SG. Not a SF, he's only a SF when Nellie would go with 3 guards and Maggette at center

." And Tolliver's stats are inflated even worse. He was playing on a team with literally no competition. He's not good either. He's a true bench warmer as well."

No competition cause all the competition was on crutches , he goes to a team with Love as the PF and gets 18 MPG, according to you those are good backup minutes

"Have been for about 3 or 4 seasons now."

3 seasons ago we had 48 wins, the year before playoffs. Its been 2 bad years and 1 average year

"I bet he'd get 13 and 8 for the Warriors too."

He's averaging 11 and 5 in Orlando.........

"about all kinds of Warriors players who's stats have decreased when they've played for other teams that actually are competitive or have good coaching"

The whole rotation in the playoff team went on to be key guys on there teams playing either major or solid minutes. Ive said it before, Don Nelson coached teams are a gimmick and will inflate BASE STATS. You just agreed with me.

"The Suns do use a gimmick scheme, but only for PG's really. And they have been a good team consistently with it. The Warriors have been to the playoffs 1 time in 7 years. There is a difference."

How can a system be a gimmick for 1 player? That doesnt make sense, does he run a different system then everyone else? A gimmick system is a gimmick system for all the players , not just 1. They were good cause they had the best scoring big in the NBA. He's proving in NY he alone makes a team go, I guess this year with PHX outside the playoffs shows it is a gimmick and Nash is overrated huh?

Right, Dirk did win before under a "gimmick" system and puts up better numbers w/o it. You just contradicted yourself. You said that system doesnt win, it did, you said players get there stats inflated by it, Dirk (2nd best scoring big) didnt. Kidd as well, he plays better w/o a fast offense. Curry was productive player in Chicago. All my examples are bad in your opinion but you lack understanding of the subject.

More players who are okay with or w/o a gimmick system: Joe Johnson, Shaq, Pau , Baron, Crawford, Run DMC, Sprewell, Webber, Magic

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"he's improved rebound rates

"he's improved rebound rates , 3%, efficiency, passing, defensive rating , eFG, and his ball handling. He has improved, and is playing defense. He's an inconsistent shooter no doubt but a consistent defender "

He's not playing defense, not being held accountable for it, and therefore can score as much as he wants on the court and give up as many points as he scores. He hasn't improved anything much at all. He's still the same guy who struggled to be a consistent rotation guy for 6 years in Miami. He just has the freedom to do what he wants without getting yanked.

"Reggie is a SG, BIGD is wrong for calling him a SF."

He plays like a SF and he also sees alot of time at SF in games I watch too. You don't want a guy who cant create much for himself playing SG.

"Lets look at what team Reggie W would be an upgrade as backup SG for: Tdot, Chi, Cle, Indy, Mil, Cha, Was, LAc, Sac, Min , Utah."

Reggie Williams wouldn't play over Martell Webster in Minnesota, Francisco Garcia in Sacto, Ronnie Brewer in Chicago, Paul George in Indiana, Rasual Butler in LA, Leandro Barbosa/Sonny Weems in Toronto, Nick Young/Kirk Hinrich in Washington, or C.J. Mile in Utah. The other teams are Cleveland, Milwaukee (even though Skiles would hate him, he doesn't defend), and Charlottle. And the Bobcats don't even have 2 SG's on their roster.

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"Yeah the Magic tried to get

"Yeah the Magic tried to get rid of Rashard Lewis to make room for Anthony Tolliver.....Believe that if you want."

I clearly said they wanted to make Bass the starter, Tolliver would just slide in at backup.

He pulls players for there defense, he cant afford to pull Lee cause of his rebounding and Amundson is terrible. He's the exception. Wright plays good defense, every stat says he doesn, the eye says he does and even Heat fans say he does

"72 games out of 82 doesn't mean he was a consistent rotation player like Hibbert was. Wright wasn't playing very well with the Heat." woah 1o games, you sure got me, injury maybe? Wright was playing well, really efficient, rebounded and passed well and shot 3's well. You seem to just blow off efficiency completely like it doesn't exist.

"He hasn't improved much at all"

I clearly said why he has, reminder, he improved 3%, efficiency, rebounding, passing, defense and ball handling

You dont need to play as many minutes as the starter to get good backup minutes 15-20 are legit backup minutes . George Hill plays behind Parker and Manu but still gets good minutes

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"No competition cause all the

"No competition cause all the competition was on crutches , he goes to a team with Love as the PF and gets 18 MPG, according to you those are good backup minutes"

Those are standard minutes, but lets see how many he gets when he's healthy. I'm sure it'll decrease with the Love has produced for them.

"How can a system be a gimmick for 1 player? That doesnt make sense, does he run a different system then everyone else? A gimmick system is a gimmick system for all the players , not just 1. They were good cause they had the best scoring big in the NBA. He's proving in NY he alone makes a team go, I guess this year with PHX outside the playoffs shows it is a gimmick and Nash is overrated huh?"

It makes sense. Steve Nash was never an elite passer until he got to the Suns. The pick and roll reliance allows him to rack up assists at a number he'd never gotten before. Yet other players have maintained production or gone down. Amare has done well without Nash, Richardson was a 20 ppg scorer without Nash. A system can be position friendly.

If you don't make the playoffs 3 years, and suck again right now, that's 3-4 years.

"Ive said it before, Don Nelson coached teams are a gimmick and will inflate BASE STATS. You just agreed with me."

No THIS is what you said: "Throughout the entire thread I have clearly denied were a gimmick, when did I say we were?""

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You don't want a guy who cant create much for himself playing SG

Ray Allen cant create for himself too well

And EVER fact and numbers says he does play defense, he holds the players he guards below there average shooting % on average. Bet you didnt know that, his defensive rating is good as well. How do you explain that? Are stats gimmicks too?

"Reggie Williams wouldn't play over Martell Webster in Minnesota, Francisco Garcia in Sacto, Ronnie Brewer in Chicago, Paul George in Indiana, Rasual Butler in LA, Leandro Barbosa/Sonny Weems in Toronto, Nick Young/Kirk Hinrich in Washington, or C.J. Mile in Utah. The other teams are Cleveland, Milwaukee (even though Skiles would hate him, he doesn't defend), and Charlottle. And the Bobcats don't even have 2 SG's on their roster."

He'd play over Brewer who is a terrible scorer and for a team with no shooters he'd bring something they dont have

Garcia is one of the worst guards in the NBA , part of the reason Wesphal gets ripped for his rotations

George gets benched consistently

Butler is awful

Weems plays SF

Kirk plays mainly at PG

Miles is a SF

Cats 2's are Jackson, Carrol and Gerald Henderson

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Those are standard minutes, but lets see how many he gets when h

e's healthy"

Love was producing at the same rate when Tolliver was there healthy

Nash was a good passer before PHX, keep in mind he was very young and improving, he wouldn't come straight into the NBA getting 10 assists , they barely do a PnR anymore w/o Amare as well

I clearly have said todays W's are not a gimmick saying things like "DON NELSON IS NOT THE COACH"

And I have been saying Don Nelsons offense is a gimmick, Keith Smart isn't. Many times I called Nellie a gimmick, and said we are no ,longer a gimmick directly at you

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"woah 1o games, you sure got

"woah 1o games, you sure got me, injury maybe? Wright was playing well, really efficient, rebounded and passed well and shot 3's well. You seem to just blow off efficiency completely like it doesn't exist."

He didn't miss time with injury last year. All 10 games were coaches decisions. I understand efficiency, but I also understand that the Heat were actually well-coached too. I don't expect you to really understand that though.

"I clearly said they wanted to make Bass the starter, Tolliver would just slide in at backup."

That would probably have been the worst PF pair in the NBA wouldn't you say? And yet, they still probably would've gotten about 20 and 12 between themselves. Empty stats at its finest.

"You dont need to play as many minutes as the starter to get good backup minutes 15-20 are legit backup minutes . George Hill plays behind Parker and Manu but still gets good minutes "

Yeah and that 13 Watson get is just sooooooo much less than 15 huh.

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""He'd play over Brewer who

"

"He'd play over Brewer who is a terrible scorer and for a team with no shooters he'd bring something they dont have- .........You don't watch the Bulls play judging by this and your thoughts about Derrick Rose.

Garcia is one of the worst guards in the NBA , part of the reason Wesphal gets ripped for his rotations- He is just as good as Williams, except more willing on D and a better passer.

George gets benched consistently- Yet they would develop him over Reggie Williams obviously.

Butler is awful- Hmmm, what is Reggie Williams then? I wonder....

Weems plays SF- Weems plays both wing spots.

Kirk plays mainly at PG- Nick Young is the Wizards backup then. And he wouldn't play over him.

Miles is a SF- C.J. Miles plays SG much more than SF.

Cats 2's are Jackson, Carrol and Gerald Henderson "- Gerald Henderson is a SF most times for the Bobcats when he actually sees time.

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lmao@nateoak for saying ray

lmao@nateoak for saying ray allen cant create for himself...ray allen is a great ball handler for a shooting guard....most guys that are great shooters are strickly 1 dimensional and have to come off screens or picks..but ray allen is a very good playmaker...

and playing in that warriors offense will make any guard look good...look at acie law ,he started the season with memphis..but got cut becuz he struggled to score ,but with the warriors he's playing a little better..

i bet a guy like scottie reynolds would put up nice stats playing with the warriors...

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Nateoak has no clue. I

Nateoak has no clue. I seriously am done arguing with him.That last post saying Williams could be a backup over like 10 SG's is the icing on the cake man. I can't do it any more. I quit.

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lol^^^^

lol^^^^

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Rudeboy

Acie Law has played terrible

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Garcia is a better defender

Garcia is a better defender but not the better passer. 3 assists per game to 1 since you only like simple stats.

Well no duh, he was a lottery pick

He plays about 3/4 his time at SF

Reggie is decent. Butler's TS is rarely above 50

Young starts at SG. Kirk is the backup PG to Wall. Or vice versa,they have flip flopped and with Wall being out both start

False

Only when Wallace is injured, otherwise he's a SG. Just like how Vlad is only a PF cause someone is hurt

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"That would probably have

"That would probably have been the worst PF pair in the NBA wouldn't you say? And yet, they still probably would've gotten about 20 and 12 between themselves. Empty stats at its finest."

Because Bass and Andersen are any better? Or Hedo depending on the night?

I get Miami is well coached, but Spo's weakness is his short leashes. Part of the reason Miami got out of the slump was he loosened up on them. I said 15-20. 7 minutes is a big difference. 15 is the bare minimum . You clearly dont understand efficiency in bball terms since you continue to shun the EFFICIENCY stats

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