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Monta Ellis is underrated

JNixon
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That's exactly what I said.

That's exactly what I said. He's a one-dimensional scorer. He wouldn't pick up steals, assists, or anything on any other team. The Warriors style of play inflates his other stats just as much as it does his scoring. It still doesn't mean he's not one-dimensional.

nateoak10
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You have a bad reading comprehension from the looks of it

I never called LAL a gimmick offense, I simply used you implication of Monta only plays well cause of the system and used it for LA to prove it didn't make any sense. You proved my own point yourself w/o realizing it

I wasnt literally saying they were one dimensional but in your terms they are.You implied a player that can do it all on offense and score many different ways was 1 dimensional so I threw those names in there to prove your implication makes 0 sense since like Monta all those guys can score many different ways. You are proving my points w/o realizing it. And defensive rating (look above) takes into account switches and it still says he does a good job on defense. You saying everything he does is mediocre is also ignorant as he is 2nd in the NBA in steals and is a good passer (not well above average for more than slightly). His defense in total is above average, the mediocre part of his game is rebounding whoch is also explained above.

I guarntee if the W's had there whole team all year they'd be .500 or above. The 1 time they had Curry and Lee completely healthy they were 6-2. Then Lee's elbow got infected and Curry sprained his ankle. Keep i mind Biedrins has been out 6 straight games as well and Udoh and Amundson came back a month early. Seriously b4 arguing about something educate yourself on it.

You still have yet to prove this gimmick, "And if the Warriors don't play a gimmick system, then there is no such thing." Not the in deph point I was waiting for. Once again, its just a blind opinion you just threw out there cuase you really had no explanation .

Again when we've had the majority of our key guys together were slighlty above .500 , does that count as fielding a decent team? Or do you want a team lead by a 2nd year guard and Monta to be 1st in the West? In fact that back court when combining points, assists, REBOUNDS, and steals they are the most productive back court in the NBA and its not close. The W's have the 3rd most productive starting 5 as well (includes blocks) but the 26th ranked bench. Explains a lot about the deph issues. And that number is with Udoh and Louis being back

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OMG

Explain how he's a 1 dimensional scorer, please. I want to hear this

And players steals have never been affected throughout history by there team. If you can get steals you can get steals no matter where you are, history proves that. With assists it depends on who you play with, for example LBJ's assits in Miami likely wont be as good as with the Cavs cause he shares the ball with Wade more than he shared with a worse passer in Mo. It's about assist ratio here and assist per 36 with adjusted pace. It's more about the ability to do it than racking up the numbers. Another example here would be that Billups never has racked up 10+ assists a game , only 1 season with more than 7. But he still is a very good passer cause he has the capability to do it and still moves the ball and sets guys up very well

Your mixing being one dimensional and inflation (even though adjusted stats prevent inflating, which has been proven thousands of time outside this thread). One dimensional is a players lack of skills, the ability to do 1 thing (Monta can score in many ways, pass and gets steals). Inflation is when a system effects a player PPG and assists (steals and rebounds are proven to not be effected here). So there base stats of PPG and assists may look bigger then normal but by looking at the advanced numbers you can see what the numbers w/o inflation. Another form of inflation is MPG, thats why people look at per36. Given it should only be used for people close or above 36 MPG but for Monta it's a legit argument since he plays so much. BUT on average he scores MORE when he plays less than 36 MPG than the alternative.

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I'll say it again

Explain how he's 1 dimensional

Here is its definition since your having a tough time defining it

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/one-dimensional

It's lacking in deph/flat (1 side....1 part of a players game), Monta's game does not lack deph and has more than 1 part

nateoak10
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And could you give me some

And could you give me some facts to backup ANY of your claims?

JNixon
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"I never called LAL a gimmick

"I never called LAL a gimmick offense, I simply used you implication of Monta only plays well cause of the system and used it for LA to prove it didn't make any sense. You proved my own point yourself w/o realizing it"

How does it not make sense? The Lakers use their offense to benefit their players, but they actually win games. The Warriors inflate players' stats and lose. It should be obvious that the Warriors use a gimmick system.

"I wasnt literally saying they were one dimensional but in your terms they are.You implied a player that can do it all on offense and score many different ways was 1 dimensional so I threw those names in there to prove your implication makes 0 sense since like Monta all those guys can score many different ways. You are proving my points w/o realizing it. And defensive rating (look above) takes into account switches and it still says he does a good job on defense. You saying everything he does is mediocre is also ignorant as he is 2nd in the NBA in steals and is a good passer (not well above average for more than slightly). His defense in total is above average, the mediocre part of his game is rebounding whoch is also explained above."

No Carmelo, Kobe, and Derrick Rose rebound, defend and in Rose's case create offense, and they do so for team that win. Monta Ellis is a scorer who happens to put up bigger stats than he should in other categories because he plays in a system that equates to losses and fields below average players who put up numbers. Those players are in no way similar to Monta Ellis. Add that to your list of terrible examples.

"You still have yet to prove this gimmick, "And if the Warriors don't play a gimmick system, then there is no such thing." Not the in deph point I was waiting for. Once again, its just a blind opinion you just threw out there cuase you really had no explanation ."

No, YOU have yet to prove they aren't a gimmick. Just because they run less than they did last year doesn't mean they aren't a gimmick offense. You made a topic and boosted Monta Ellis's stats and compared them to that of Kobe Bryant's and Dwyane Wade's, as if he is nearly the player those guys are. A system where Reggie Williams 11 ppg and 4 rpg and Dorell Wright gets 16 ppg, 6 rpg and 3 apg is a gimmick. They're not that good. I don't know what plays the Warriors are running to give hardcore evidence they are a gimmick, but if they have 2 legit All-Stars, the 3rd best SG, and Reggie Williams and Dorell Wright getting their numbers, they shouldn't be a bad team. There is no way a team with a real basketball strategy loses with that much going for them. Injuries happen, that's a weak excuse.

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Lol I have given you backup

Lol I have given you backup to my claims now. That's all this has been. There are only so many examples you can give, since it's mostly hypothetical.

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" No Carmelo, Kobe, and

" No Carmelo, Kobe, and Derrick Rose rebound, defend and in Rose's case create offense"

Monta can create offense easily, and if you dont think he can case close. You dont know him. You want a fact to back it up? Usage % has him as one of the highest in the NBA , meaning he's asked to create a lot and with his production its obvious he can.

The W's when healthy have won with this offense rather it be this year or when Bdiddy was here. So that shoots that theory down. And I did prove it's not a gimmick with pace. A gimmick NBA offense is running Maggette as a center with Nellie did a lot of. That is a gimmick. Nothing like that has happened this year. Injuries do happen your right, but at the pace (record breaking) we have them. It is an excuse. Reggie is a awful defender so his numbers don't mean too much. W's players would benfit more if we ran more, go on a site called goldenstateofmind and ask if they like Keith Smart's offense and if we should run more. Lots of them will tell you they hate him and his slower offense and some want Nellie back so we can run more.

And Rose is pretty similar to Monta, both really fast and explosive athletes (Rose is stronger), both not pure PG's but can create, great scorers and above average defenders. At this point in Rose's career compared to Monta there shooting skill is similar since Rose's 3 hasn't really come yet and and has developed a mid range shot just like Monta did at that point in his career. I suspect Rose will get a good 3 since I've seen him nay times hit some really tough 3's .

"Reggie Williams and Dorell Wright getting their numbers"

Getting your number doesnt make you a good player, look at Maggette, Crawford, Nate Rob in NY etc.

You haven't proved any of your points with a lack of facts. I'm still waiting on how Monta is 1 dimensional (He's not) and how were a gimmick offense and. Explain how were a gimmick if we dont go small when we have a sufficient amount of bigs active and run less , is it just cause were the W's and thats our reputation?

Pop quiz ... True or False do the Hawks run a up temp offense?

nateoak10
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What evidence have you given? really?

What you have basically said in a ntushell is "i dont care what the evidence says there a gimmick lalalalla gimmick gimmick"

"But all the numbers say they arent and you have said youve barely watched them"

"GIMMICKS!"

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"Monta can create offense

"Monta can create offense easily, and if you dont think he can case close. You dont know him. You want a fact to back it up? Usage % has him as one of the highest in the NBA , meaning he's asked to create a lot and with his production its obvious he can."

So he can score 25 ppg AND get 8 or 9 apg too? Derrick Rose create offense for himself, other and wins is what I mean. Monta Ellis isn't on Derrick Rose's level lol. Why is it that you keep comparing him to all these players that are easily better than him, and then taking it as some kind of insult when I tell you he isn't as good? LOL. All of a sudden I haven't watched Monta Ellis play because I said Derrick Rose creates offense and wins. I don't get it.

"Getting your number doesnt make you a good player, look at Maggette, Crawford, Nate Rob in NY etc."

All got their best numbers in gimmick systems. Exactly my point.

"The W's when healthy have won with this offense rather it be this year or when Bdiddy was here. So that shoots that theory down. And I did prove it's not a gimmick with pace. A gimmick NBA offense is running Maggette as a center with Nellie did a lot of. That is a gimmick. Nothing like that has happened this year. Injuries do happen your right, but at the pace (record breaking) we have them. It is an excuse. Reggie is a awful defender so his numbers don't mean too much. W's players would benfit more if we ran more, go on a site called goldenstateofmind and ask if they like Keith Smart's offense and if we should run more. Lots of them will tell you they hate him and his slower offense and some want Nellie back so we can run more."

A gimmicky style of play is one in which you run up and down the court, score, and then play no D over and over throughout the course of a game. That's exactly what they were doing when they played the Hawks, and it's basically what they do whenever I've watched them play this year and really for the past 3 or 4 years. They didn't even have sets offensively really. They are a team that shots a bunch of shots and plays "open gym" defense. That is a gimmick style of play, and it's nice for stats, but they'll never win playing that way. There is more than 1 way of playing basketball, therefore there is more than "playing Corey Maggette at C" as the sole definition of gimmick basketball. The Golden State Warriors pad their stats, and with all the supposed talent they have they should actually be good. The only explanation to why they don't resolves around the fact that they play a style of play that inflates their stats. Injuries are excuses in this case. They aren't as good as you think they are.

nateoak10
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You havent watched him cause you say hes 1 dimensional

He's not the passer Rose is but still capable of creating for others and himself. He's plays on the ball about half the time or more nowadays. Monta is actually the more efficient scorer

Maggette got his best numbers in LAC in a slow offense (he was a better defender and more efficient) and Crawford put up numbers before Dantoni got there , same goes for Nate Rob. Crawford still puts up lots of numbers in one of the 5 slowest offenses in the NBA (you failed to answer the Pop quiz, most likely cause you were afraid of being wrong)

I dont know how to say it more clear, we dont run nearly as much as you think we do. Also your definition of gimmick offenses is flawed, Showtime Lakers ran up and down a lot, scored and people would criticise them of sometimes not playing there hardest on defense . A gimmick is making Stephen Jackson your PF and Monta Ellis your SF wich Nellie did do.

"but they'll never win playing that way"

They were pretty damn good for a while until the team got broken up and the Lakers won multiple titles playing fast. I have never said we are super talented, we have some talent but not lots. Monta, Curry and Lee have talent. Dorell and Reggie have a good amount but after them it disappears. Udoh defensively has talent and has tools on offense but little potential. It's team with average talent and average play. I have said about 1,000 times now. I think at best were a .500 team. AT BEST.

Once again you fail to provide facts, you just say they are a gimmick and run. Gimmick and run. Can you provide evidence , please? Any sort of evidence. Just a little even. I dont think you have it though. I've thrown out tons of statistical and visual evidence. Yet, you just brush it off as stat boosting gimmicks. I provided that advanced stats are adjusted to average fast offenses out and that efficiency , steals, assists and rebounds aren't truly affected by a slow or fast offense. I've proved we aren't the same offense yet you seem to think Don Nelson is still the coach.

Answer to the pop quiz : Atlanta is the 4th slowest offense in the NBA(I'd bet all my money you didn't know that)

New pop quiz

True or false: The Spurs are one of the NBA fastest offenses

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I agree with Nateoak here,

I agree with Nateoak here, because Monta Ellis definately isn't one dimensional. The only reason the Warriors don't win is because of a horrible bench, an injured David Lee. Remember 6-2 start when he was healthy. So i would say if he was healthy the entire time they would be around if not just under .500. They just need a few backups and i think maybe an upgrade at the C and SF and they'll be good to go. Maybe Iggy could be a good fit for GSW? Bring Dorell Wright as your first man off the bench.

nateoak10
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I'd love Iggy with Dorell of the bench

But Philly is asking for way too much, they said no to Batum and Joel. Best we could offer is Biedrins and 12 mil in expirings. We wont get him, if we did it'd be in a multi team trade

nateoak10
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Stat I just found

Monta Ellis assits on more 3 pointers made than both CP3 and DWill

BigD
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http://games.espn.go.com/nba/

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=265xbe9

What about that plus maybe a few 1st rounders if GSW has any to Philly.

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"He's not the passer Rose is

"He's not the passer Rose is but still capable of creating for others and himself. He's plays on the ball about half the time or more nowadays. Monta is actually the more efficient scorer"

He's more efficient because he shoulders less of a load than Rose does. Not because he's close to being as good a basketball player.

"Maggette got his best numbers in LAC in a slow offense (he was a better defender and more efficient) and Crawford put up numbers before Dantoni got there , same goes for Nate Rob. Crawford still puts up lots of numbers in one of the 5 slowest offenses in the NBA (you failed to answer the Pop quiz, most likely cause you were afraid of being wrong)"

Notice how all of their numbers went down when they played for a team that wins. The same thing would happen to Ellis. That is the basic point I'm making here. Ellis is not a top 3 SG in the NBA. Jamal Crawford doesn't score as much as he did for Golden State and New York because the Hawks play winning basketball and he had to buy in. I don't care what pace the Hawks play at, and I'm sure the Hawks don't either. They are too busy winning games. Monta Ellis' numbers would decrease if he played for a winning team or a team that uses a real structure just like Maggette, Crawford, and Robinson's numbers have. It's not about numbers. It's obvious anyone can put up stats for the Warriors, Ellis isn't as good as you're making him out to be. Everything you're saying is showing that too. It's one thing to have empty stats on a bad team, and anyone has to know that the Warriors have a roster full of guys who put up.

"Once again you fail to provide facts, you just say they are a gimmick and run. Gimmick and run. Can you provide evidence , please? Any sort of evidence. Just a little even. I dont think you have it though. I've thrown out tons of statistical and visual evidence. Yet, you just brush it off as stat boosting gimmicks. I provided that advanced stats are adjusted to average fast offenses out and that efficiency , steals, assists and rebounds aren't truly affected by a slow or fast offense. I've proved we aren't the same offense yet you seem to think Don Nelson is still the coach."

The evidence is Dorell Wright and Reggie Williams putting up numbers. A D-League call-up and a castoff from a Miami team that was a low-seeded playoff team. How does a player who saw inconsistent time throughout his career manage to average 15 ppg, 7 rpg and 3 apg just a year after being in an out of the rotation for another team? And how does a player who was passed on by every other team in the NBA just come in from the D-League and put up 11 ppg and 4 rpg in his 2nd season, especially when he would be at best a 12th man on any other NBA team? Who wouldn't brush this off as a gimmick? They aren't even really good players. How can anyone possibly not think their stats are inflated? When has Wright ever been close to what he's doing right now? Advanced stats don't take into account so many things that invole teams and other factors. I'd rather just go by watching games and what players do on the floor during games. PER and all that stuff does nothing for me, and it's not really trustworthy. Especially since it gives fans like you an idea of players that isn't true.

nateoak10
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If we could then pull a 2nd trade involving out expiring

contracts to get another center and maybe a 3rd guard sure but I wouldnt throw a pick into that deal mainly cause we lose even more deph

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"And Rose is pretty similar

"And Rose is pretty similar to Monta, both really fast and explosive athletes (Rose is stronger), both not pure PG's but can create, great scorers and above average defenders. At this point in Rose's career compared to Monta there shooting skill is similar since Rose's 3 hasn't really come yet and and has developed a mid range shot just like Monta did at that point in his career. I suspect Rose will get a good 3 since I've seen him nay times hit some really tough 3's ."

22-10.

13-20.

There is a difference. Please, when you want to overrate your guy, at least try to get to the point where you realize the end result of wins and losses matters.

Also, you sound like someone who hasn't watched Derrick Rose this season. Please do, he is worth a watch.

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Jamal Crawford has been

Jamal Crawford has been scoring less this season due to injuries. and last season his Points per Minute was actually up.

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"Jamal Crawford has been

"Jamal Crawford has been scoring less this season due to injuries."

What about last year?

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I just said... his points per

I just said... his points per minute was actually up.

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Don't you think his points

Don't you think his points per minute stats increased because he shouldered less of a load as a role player on a team that was winning? That's not uncommon at all...It actually proves that his stats are better in a winning environment as opposed to one where his stats are inflated.

nateoak10
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Actually your wrong when shouldering the load

Monta has a high usage rate than Rose does

about 33 to 30

Maggette was on 1 good team in which he missed more than half the season playing Crawford's numbers went down cause he played next to a lot more potent players than GSW or NY. His productions and rates stayed the same but his base stats dipped. Again, his performance didn't change just the base average. No doubt Monta's numbers would decrease on a better team. His usage would go down so his base stats would too, but his performance would stay about the same, more likely better actually since the lower his usage the more efficient he is . Quick note, when you got ESPN or Yahoo and look at stats, they only show you base stats not performance. Basketball reference is the place you should go to get performance stats

Back to the point, Maggette isn't really winning in Milwaukee either so thats thrown out the window , Crawford PPG went down by 1 last year with Atlanta while playing 7 less minutes in a slower offense and his per36 scoring went up. This proves our "gimmick" offense actually hurt a player most describe as a run and gun player. His TS% also went up in Atlanta, overall a run and gun player played better slowly, I guess we didnt boost his stats did we? Maggette also got put back on the trade block and is getting benched a lot, he didn't buy into the Bucks and hasn't played well.

Dorell is a legit candidate for MIP, Reggie is playing better than Crawford is right now as well . Wright in Miami had good per36 numbers and should have played last year a lot more. Any Heat fan will tell you that. Id surprise you too find out Reggie led the NCAA in scoring 2 straight season at VMA and was passed on cause of horrible defense, not his offense. He could always score. PER sucks learn that now while you can, its a false stat. And I actually dont look at stats a lot, but here when your so blatantly wrong I pulled them out. Wright has improved every part of his game, parts he never had in Miami that only coming from hard work not a system. No one ever saw his ball handling cause he was never asked to do it in Miami. He was asked to play D, thats it. Hes getting a chance to show he can do more. Players have always come out of the blue to play really well and werent in our offense. A current example is Roy Hibbert, dude just came out of nowhere this year and became a top 10 , maybe top 5 center. If Reggie and Dorell are your only evidence you sh** out of luck cause thats piss poor evidence. Reggie has just continued what hes always been able to, shoot and suck on defense and DW's usage has gone up from his Miami days, thus he's had to do more and show more. Even adjust pace has him playing well

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@Jnix why you arguing with

@Jnix why you arguing with him he defends all GS players all the time, he still defends Anthony Randolph and all his potential

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So wouldn't you think this

So wouldn't you think this could be the same for Monta Ellis if he got help too? His points per minute would go up with help by your logic.

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"Back to the point, Maggette

"Back to the point, Maggette isn't really winning in Milwaukee either so thats thrown out the window , Crawford PPG went down by 1 last year with Atlanta while playing 7 less minutes in a slower offense and his per36 scoring went up. This proves our "gimmick" offense actually hurt a player most describe as a run and gun player. His TS% also went up in Atlanta, overall a run and gun player played better slowly, I guess we didnt boost his stats did we? Maggette also got put back on the trade block and is getting benched a lot, he didn't buy into the Bucks and hasn't played well."

Notice how I said " or in a structured system." That was in regards to Maggette. Scott Skiles migth not be winning right now, but the Bucks are a well-coached team with a direction that has won them games before. Maggette reliance on scoring and allergies to defense have led him to be in the dog house. That would/has happened to a bunch of Warriors players, even some that are playing key roles (Wright, Carney, Radmanovic) Crawford was better utilized in Atlanta than he was in Golden State and New York. His stats weren't inflated because he could play to his niche on a good Atlanta team. That's why his efficiency was better there. His point per game decreased because he isn't the type of player who should be pacing a team in scoring, so yes, Golden State did boost his scoring. Even you said Don Nelson's coaching style was a gimmick, and Nelson was Crawford's coach for the Warriors. So why are you now trying to make a case that the Warriors didn't boost his stats?

"Dorell is a legit candidate for MIP, Reggie is playing better than Crawford is right now as well . Wright in Miami had good per36 numbers and should have played last year a lot more. Any Heat fan will tell you that. Id surprise you too find out Reggie led the NCAA in scoring 2 straight season at VMA and was passed on cause of horrible defense, not his offense."

Wright is a MIP candidate for his inflated stats, not because he's actually gotten much better. The Heat wanted guys who consistently played D. Wright didn't. Any Heat fan who said he should have played more probably didn't watch him play defense. Coach Spoelstra had a short leash on guys who didn't play good D, no matter how much offensive talent you had. And I can't blame him. That's how you win. Golden State will never win until they play defense. Coach Smart will obviously let you play through bad defense, hence why Wright is playing enough to put up his inflated numbers. People saw the talent he had in Miami. He's always been a smooth ball-handler with promising shooting touch, but he didn't defend on a night-to-night basis. His skills didn't just come out of nowhere. I hope you're smart enough to at least no that, he's been in the NBA at least 5 years now. Reggie Williams was a prolific scorer, but so were alot of guys in college. That doesn't make him a legit NBA player. Truth is, he'd struggle mightily to be a rotation player in the NBA on most other teams. Yet he's apart of the Warriors rotation putting up numbers like he's just a truly solid player. No. And Roy Hibbert didn't come out of nowhere guy.......He was the starting C for the Pacers a good deal of last year and a consistent rotation player.

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I come here to get outsider opinions on the W's mainly honestly

So I end up talking about them and there injuries

And I have watched Rose, he plays similar to Monta. He by far the better player but still, they play similar and have a similar skill set

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"So wouldn't you think this

"So wouldn't you think this could be the same for Monta Ellis if he got help too? His points per minute would go up with help by your logic."

I agree. But his actual game stats that are inflated like ppg, apg, spg would go down. He's not a true 25 ppg scorer on a good team. Just like Crawford isn't a 20-21 ppg scorer on a good team. That's all I'm trying to say. It's not about efficiency, it's about how inflated his other actual game stats are.

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Crawford is used basically the same way

He just comes off the bench but has the same role , the only difference is how fast hes moving. And Maggette had his best years in a slow defensive team in LAC so thats false. Its just him and Skiles dont see eye to eye. Carney and Vlad arent in key roles here at all, there playing cause Andris is out so Vlad plays at PF more cause of it so Carney steps into the backup 3 spot. We didnt inflate his stats, he scored worse here than he has in Atlanta, ATL inflated it more than we did. Theres no evidence to show we boosted his stats, infact its the exact opposite. He played worse , my case here is that not all players are boosted by a fast system like youve implied. Some play better in a slow offense

Wright has increased all his rates (3's, 3%, rebounds and assists and poiints) at a good rate. Very good rate, meaning he has gotten better. Inflating stats never effects your rates in a adjusted pace measurement , only you base per game stats. You can say we inflated him but all rates and %'s say otherwise. It says he's just gotten better, he is only 24 years old, not even in his prime so it's very possible he did just get better. His defense was always good its just that hes a dumb arse on the floor, taking stupid fadeaways and dribbling too much. Thats why Spoelstra didnt like him.

Hibbert was just that though, a rotation player, a starter who was very average and didn't rebound well. This year his rebounding just exploded out of the blue. And his scoring is a lot better and has added a lot to his game. History shows 2 things translate well to college, high scoring (not always but most of the time, cases for being Reggie, Wade, Griffin and against being Reddick and Morrison... a theme in the against is shooters who cant dribble). Reggie wouldnt get 25 MPG on a really good team, more like 15-20, he's too good a shooter to bench.

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Crawford is about a 20 PPG game on a good team, just under

it, per36 he's above 20 PPg.His base stats would go down cause USAGE would go down but he could easily still score21-23 PPG, 3-4 assists per game as well. And thats me ignoring the stats cause when his usage goes down to where your talking about his PPG is about 27 and assists around 6

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"He just comes off the bench

"He just comes off the bench but has the same role , the only difference is how fast hes moving. And Maggette had his best years in a slow defensive team in LAC so thats false. Its just him and Skiles dont see eye to eye. Carney and Vlad arent in key roles here at all, there playing cause Andris is out so Vlad plays at PF more cause of it so Carney steps into the backup 3 spot. We didnt inflate his stats, he scored worse here than he has in Atlanta, ATL inflated it more than we did. Theres no evidence to show we boosted his stats, infact its the exact opposite. He played worse , my case here is that not all players are boosted by a fast system like youve implied. Some play better in a slow offense"

He also had a great year for the Warriors were his stats were inflated. Either way, Maggette played for bad teams and put up inflated numbers. Some because he played for bad teams, so because he played for bad teams with gimmick systems. Who cares? Ellis is no different at all. Crawford's points per game, minutes and assists went down and his efficiency rose. That is proof right there! What are you talking about?! How is that not proof lmao. The pace Atlanta plays at plays less of a role than the actual role he was playing for the team as an instant offensive spark, as opposed to a 1st option scorer. That's why he got better. Golden State and the Knicks were bad because they tried to make him their 1st option. The Hawks didn't, and they were actually good because of it. He put up the stats he needed to to make them win. The Warriors will forever be bad until they realize they need good coaching, as in someone who can make them defend and run a scheme that will make them a winning team, instead of letting Dorell Wright and Reggie Williams be top options on their team and letting them stay of the floor without playing defense.

"Wright has increased all his rates (3's, 3%, rebounds and assists and poiints) at a good rate. Very good rate, meaning he has gotten better. Inflating stats never effects your rates in a adjusted pace measurement , only you base per game stats. You can say we inflated him but all rates and %'s say otherwise. It says he's just gotten better, he is only 24 years old, not even in his prime so it's very possible he did just get better. His defense was always good its just that hes a dumb arse on the floor, taking stupid fadeaways and dribbling too much. Thats why Spoelstra didnt like him."

LOL his defense was not always good. If it was, he would've found much more consistent time than he did. His low IQ factored on both ends, but mostly on D. He functioned largely as a spot up shooter for the Heat, but he always was a decent ball-handler. Nothing about the way he's playing is different, except the fact that he gets consistent time. That's literally the only difference. He's little to no different than he was with Miami.

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I like Monta Ellis, but

I like Monta Ellis, but bottomline is that STAR players lead there teams to the playoffs. Im not saying his supporting cast is great, but i have seen worse and i wish they were better but they just arent.

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"Hibbert was just that

"Hibbert was just that though, a rotation player, a starter who was very average and didn't rebound well. This year his rebounding just exploded out of the blue. And his scoring is a lot better and has added a lot to his game. History shows 2 things translate well to college, high scoring (not always but most of the time, cases for being Reggie, Wade, Griffin and against being Reddick and Morrison... a theme in the against is shooters who cant dribble). Reggie wouldnt get 25 MPG on a really good team, more like 15-20, he's too good a shooter to bench."

He was a CONSISTENT rotation player. The key word is in all caps. Hibbert also a 3rd year big man. Wright wasn't a consistent rotation player for the Heat, and he never was in 6 (SIX!) years with the Heat. There is a difference in upside between a 6th year player and a 3rd year player with NO players in the depth chart to push him for time. And Reggie Williams at most see 10 mpg on a good team, yes at most. He's not very good. He's Willie Green, except he doesn't play defense.

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10 MPG?

For a guy with 60+ TS? Your really underestimating his shooting , he'd get 20+ in Chicago. If you put him on a good team with lots of shooters maybe your right, a good w/o them and your wrong.

Hibbert wasn't really consistent , he was a sporadic scorer and rebounder , Wright never had a chance to show his full game, he even said in an interview Spoelstra didnt allow him to do more on offense then stand in the corner. Here we ask him to do more and he's shown he can do it, he tried to show it in games in Miami but got pulled for it cause he wasnt in the corner.

Are you saying LAC had a gimmick system too? I guess every bad team with a high scorer must be gimmick even though there is no proof of it and is wrong.. Okay, your right : /

Crawfords role here was too be a scorer and no more, same in Atlanta except he started next to Monta since we had no PG back then and Monta wasnt the passer he is now and was just off the moped thing. Crawford plays starter minutes and doesnt have to start cause they have Bibby who can shoot 3's just as well if not better so he doesnt have to play as much. His efficieny AND PPG rose in Atlanta. He was never our 1st option, Montas was 1, Jackson was 2 he was 3 here. In Atlanta he's 3 behind Joe and Smith. And now your making stuff up saying Dorell and Reggie are our top options over Lee, Ellis and Curry. You should even know thats silly to say.

Dorell is much different, I went over to the HEats fans blog (pennisulaisismightier.com) and talked to them after we played them, they said he was a lot different. Taking step back fadeways, turnarounds, driving in aggressively, playing harder on defense and rebounding and improving his 3 pointer. He has the same skillset but has made every part of it better

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10 MPG?

For a guy with 60+ TS? Your really underestimating his shooting , he'd get 20+ in Chicago. If you put him on a good team with lots of shooters maybe your right, a good w/o them and your wrong.

Hibbert wasn't really consistent , he was a sporadic scorer and rebounder , Wright never had a chance to show his full game, he even said in an interview Spoelstra didnt allow him to do more on offense then stand in the corner. Here we ask him to do more and he's shown he can do it, he tried to show it in games in Miami but got pulled for it cause he wasnt in the corner.

Are you saying LAC had a gimmick system too? I guess every bad team with a high scorer must be gimmick even though there is no proof of it and is wrong.. Okay, your right : /

Crawfords role here was too be a scorer and no more, same in Atlanta except he started next to Monta since we had no PG back then and Monta wasnt the passer he is now and was just off the moped thing. Crawford plays starter minutes and doesnt have to start cause they have Bibby who can shoot 3's just as well if not better so he doesnt have to play as much. His efficieny AND PPG rose in Atlanta. He was never our 1st option, Montas was 1, Jackson was 2 he was 3 here. In Atlanta he's 3 behind Joe and Smith. And now your making stuff up saying Dorell and Reggie are our top options over Lee, Ellis and Curry. You should even know thats silly to say.

Dorell is much different, I went over to the HEats fans blog (pennisulaisismightier.com) and talked to them after we played them, they said he was a lot different. Taking step back fadeways, turnarounds, driving in aggressively, playing harder on defense and rebounding and improving his 3 pointer. He has the same skillset but has made every part of it better

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He would get 20+ in

He would get 20+ in Chicago...with D Rose maybe. I think D Rose and Ellis are pretty much opposites this year. Rose has good numbers, but some people question his "true PG" abilities, but what they need to realize is he is beating teams. Which is the goal of basketball, to win. Ellis puts up astounding numbers but doesnt win games. Would you rather player with Noah/Boozer (not both of them), Luol Deng, Kurt Thomas, and Keith Bogans, or Steph Curry, David Lee, Dorell Wright, and Reggie Williams? i dont think the margin (if any) is that big.

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No doubt Rose is way better

I just think they have a similar skill set, neither are true PGs, blazing speed, great athletes, good mid range shooters, both developing 3 pointers, above averagish defenders, both are at there best driving to the rim. But Rose IS better. The supporting casts, Bulls frontcour is way way way better.

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Oh i apologize if that was a

Oh i apologize if that was a random rant just when you threw CHI in i thought maybe you were talking about Rose...

Ellis is very good. He just either A. isnt as good as numbers suggest, thanks to the system, or B. Has a horrific supporting cast.

I think Rose is a true PG, he just doesnt do the same things most PGs do. Having him ever playing SG would seem ridiculous.

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Seeing as though we have the 26th ranked bench in production

And 29 bench in defensive efficiency , Im going with B. Per game averages do get better in faster systems but efficiency and rates dont, Monta's rates and efficiency have gotten better this season and were moving slower. Outisde of Williams and Udoh no one is any good on our bench

Also if anyone wants to see Dorell highlights... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNAtRxDszes

This is just against Miami, notice him going to the rim and the type of shots off the dribble he takes, he never did that in Miami

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Nate, i do hae a question for

Nate, i do hae a question for you....

What was the purpose of ripping apart the somewhat successful nucleus the Warriors had, without really installing a new brand of basketball? If they thought the Baron, S Jack, J Rich, Pietrus, Barnes, Al Harrington style of scoring 115 points every night and losing was getting old, then thats fine. But it just seems like they got rid of all those guys without really bringing in anyone valuable. They made a good pick in the draft (Curry), and a nice low budget pick up (Wright) but as far as trading any of those guys, they didnt get anything back. And to top that off, they traded for one of the most all offense/no defense players in the NBA, David Lee. It just seems a few years ago when Monta was starting to hit his stride and they still had the likes of S Jack and Baron around that was a team you were at least afraid of.

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Give up Nixon, you've failed.

Give up Nixon, you've failed. You have wasted too much of your life on this thread....I'm beginning to wonder if you've even seen Ellis play in the last year and a half?

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whats the argument here?

whats the argument here?

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Nixon says Monta Ellis is

Nixon says Monta Ellis is only looking good cause he plays for the Warriors and is 1 dimensional, he also thinks Reggie Williams sucks and Dorell Wright hasnt gotten any better and that the W's still run Nellie ball even though hes not here. Im saying Monta is a top 5 SG, Dorell has improved and Reggie is a decent player

It all started with me saying Monta was the 3rd best SG in the NBA and at worst 5th. I used stats to help prove my point throughout the thread

Urban: Every W fan to this day wonders that, you have to try and remember we had the 2nd worst owner in all of sports outside of Donald Sterling. He broke the team up for 2 reason: He saved himself well over 100 million from his own pocket and is a dumb arse. We have new owners who have already showed they care more than Cohan's old regime. The Lee trade was okay but he's not a good fit next to Biedrins since neither defend. If we had a good defensive center that commanded the paint on defense he'd be a great trade, right now its just an okay one since we did get a rebounding upgrade and somewhat of a offensive balance upgrade but we traded our best bench guys and gave up a big contract to Lee. The big mistakes were trading CJ Watson for cap space and then signing Louis Amundson and Rodney Carney with the money that should have towards Anthony Morrow

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I'm done now....You don't get it.

"Hibbert wasn't really consistent , he was a sporadic scorer and rebounder , Wright never had a chance to show his full game, he even said in an interview Spoelstra didnt allow him to do more on offense then stand in the corner. Here we ask him to do more and he's shown he can do it, he tried to show it in games in Miami but got pulled for it cause he wasnt in the corner."

Oh my goodness. Hibbert was a consistent rotation player. As in, he was CONSISTENTLY IN THE ROTATION. Dorell Wright was not consistently in Miami's rotation. Wright had a low basketball IQ, on both ends of the floor, and saw sporadic time because of it. The Warriors won't pull you as much as the Heat do if you make mistakes, hence why his production has spiked. It's not because he's gotten better. It's because the Warriors will let you play through mistakes more than a well-coached team will.

"Are you saying LAC had a gimmick system too? I guess every bad team with a high scorer must be gimmick even though there is no proof of it and is wrong.. Okay, your right : /"

You say this after I clearly say "He also had a great year for the Warriors were his stats were inflated. Either way, Maggette played for bad teams and put up inflated numbers. Some because he played for bad teams, some because he played for bad teams with gimmick systems." This means that he put up empty numbers on bad teams, AND he put up empty numbers on bad teams WITH GIMMICK SYSTEMS. I don't get what's so hard to understand. I don't. I'm not writing in some way that's hard to understand. A high scorer on a bad team, who goes to a team with good coaching and/or a successful team almost always sees their production go down to where it should be. It levels out if you playing winning basketball. The proof are the players YOU LISTED YOURSELF genius. Jamal Crawford, Corey Maggette and Nate Robinson are the proof in themselves. How can you say there is no proof and you provided the proof by yourself? How can you be confused by what you brought up? Do you understand how dumb that is?.....It's pretty damn dumb.

"Crawfords role here was too be a scorer and no more, same in Atlanta except he started next to Monta since we had no PG back then and Monta wasnt the passer he is now and was just off the moped thing. Crawford plays starter minutes and doesnt have to start cause they have Bibby who can shoot 3's just as well if not better so he doesnt have to play as much. His efficieny AND PPG rose in Atlanta. He was never our 1st option, Montas was 1, Jackson was 2 he was 3 here. In Atlanta he's 3 behind Joe and Smith. And now your making stuff up saying Dorell and Reggie are our top options over Lee, Ellis and Curry. You should even know thats silly to say."

I never once said Wright and Williams were top options over them. Never said that all, not even close. If his role was to be a scorer and nothing else, then how is Monta Ellis not one-dimensional to you then? Crawford put up 1 less assist a game and 1 less turnover a game than Ellis does now, and had less points a night. The only major differences were Ellis gets more steals and was more efficient. And Jamal Crawford was the 2nd leading scorer for the Hawks last year. Smith was the 3rd option scorer. And Monta Ellis played 25 games in 08-09, and was a 19 ppg scorer. Stephen Jackson was the leading scorer in 08-09 at 20.7 a game in 59 games, but Crawford was 2nd at 19.7. So no, Crawford was not the 3rd option then.

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i thnik kobe and wade are the

i thnik kobe and wade are the 2 best sg's. Manu, Jjohnson, ellis, roy are all next in line. Im just throwing my 2 cents out there. Warriors offense defenitely help some players stats, but monta is pretty legit. Hes not an iverson or wade where i think he will single handidly win a game, but hes damn good and i think he could get his numbers on most teams.

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The only teams Monta Ellis

The only teams Monta Ellis could get 25 ppg, 5 apg and 3.4 topg on are the worst teams in the NBA.

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LOL

this guy defending his warriors lol... but just my two cents i agree with JNixon to an extent only time will tell you can make that kinda argument to a lesser extent Kevin Martin... check his stats out i mean he is like the leading scorer every night for the Rockets and he is never in a conversation for underrated player he wasnt even in the top 100 current players... going off stats anyways

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So your saying Dorell never

So your saying Dorell never got better? Thats a terrible choice on Miami's part then cause he's efficient, a good shooter, solid defender and above average rebounder at SF. I know Spoelstra will pull guys quick , thats a weakness of his. Phil Jackson lets players play through mistakes, he's a great coach. Sometimes with young players you have to do that

Whats hard to understand is youve convinced yourself of this gimmick theory which isnt true which clouds your judgment here clearly. I wont even touch on that anymore simply cause its not true

Maggette has put up his best numbers in a slow offense, which by your definition isnt a gimmick. He's never a good defender but his offense was at an all time high in LAC. We actually hurt Crawford's production, your theory of stat boosting with good scorers inst true. Its that simple

"If his role was to be a scorer and nothing else, then how is Monta Ellis not one-dimensional to you then? "

I said Crawfords role was to score.....

And Pure point rating, assist % and assit per 36 and usage % gives the passing edge to Monta fyi

Theres is a massive difference between a simple role and being 1 dimensional, you dont understand the term 1 dimensional. Again, 3's, driving, passing, handles, defense, and steals are more than 1 thing (fact). Thus making him not 1 dimensional. Did you know 1+1 equals 2?

When Monta came back from injury he took more shots per game than Crawford did with a higher usage. He was the 1st guy. Highest usage, most shots per game

Monta could score 25 PPg on the following teams: NY, Philly, TOR, NJ, CLE, DET, MIL, CHA, WAS, UTA, MIN, maybe DEN, NOLA, SAC, PHX, LAC and GSw. Pick and choose your teams which are good and bad in your opinion, The teams he wouldnt get 25 PPG its cause they wouldnt need him to and his usage would be lower

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Kevin Martin

Is really efficient, super efficient. But most of his shots are FT's or jumpers. When he has to put it on the floot w/o getting a call he's not very effective, his assist ratio and pure point rating suck, his defense to the eyes and defensive rating suck, hes not a rebounder, bad passer, and doesnt fit into team ball. He's a smaller Maggette, scores well but the way he does it sucks and he can't do anything else

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"Monta could score 25 PPg on

"Monta could score 25 PPg on the following teams: NY, Philly, TOR, NJ, CLE, DET, MIL, CHA, WAS, UTA, MIN, maybe DEN, NOLA, SAC, PHX, LAC and GSw. Pick and choose your teams which are good and bad in your opinion, The teams he wouldnt get 25 PPG its cause they wouldnt need him to and his usage would be lower"

This is the main reason why I had to stop talking with this guy. The only team he'd get 25 ppg on is the Golden State Warriors.

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