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Monta Ellis is underrated

nateoak10
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Monta Ellis is underrated

I made a post about how I feel bad for him and got some responses of people saying he was good and other saying they should trade him Thabeet or Rip Hamiltons corpse. Let me say it this way , HE IS REALLY GOOD

He's the only player in the NBA averaging 25 ppg, 2 steals and 5 assists, only player of 2 to average 20+ PPG for a guard shooting 48% or better , he leads all guards in points currently and is 2nd in the NBA in steals (more than RONDO), 38% on 3's and over the last 2 weeks is abut 49% on 3's

He recently had 5 game stretch of 26 points (5 assists, 4 boards and 3 steals), 34 points (6 assists 4 rebounds , 54%, 3-4 3's ) , 44 points (75%, 3-4 3's, 7 assists and 3 steals) , 36 points (7 assists, 4 steals), 39 points (7 assists, 50%)

People need to realize how good he is now, he's the 3rd best SG in the NBA behind Wade and Kobe. In fact he is actually having a better season than Kobe and about equal to Wade.

Kobe has a lower FG and 3 point %, less steals and points. Wade has a better FG%, worse 3 point % , more rebounds, less points and less steals.


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He is really good, my thing,

He is really good, my thing, I don't think he would be a good lead guard and he's small for a shooting guard. Plus, the advance numbers actually say he's overrated ( John Hollinger stated in the offseason that advanced numbers show Ellis to be THE most overrated player in the NBA)

I like him but I would want him as a point guard and playing next to a SG that could pass as well. I don't think he's a championship guy to be honest.

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Yeah I saay overrated

Not sh!tting on the kid,but he should be carrying that team to higher levels as the leader. He is a gunner. Will not be on a real successful team as the lead guy ever. He will put up crazy numbers,but not take the team far. I actually like to watch him play though.

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I made a thread about him

I made a thread about him couple months ago and I labeled him the most underrated player in the league. I called him the westcoast version of Dwayne Wade (Before the formation of the Big 3).

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PER is a flawed stat cause it congragualtes mplayers for shooting a low % but high points like Kobe, advanced stats say Kobe is the most overrated since his TS, eFG, ezPM and other say he's not even a top 15 player

Heres a post from a guy at another blog about him using advanced stats and simple stats, some guy said Ronnie Brewer, Ray Allen and Landry Fields were better than him so take it into context

“Monta’s defense is horrible”

Here are the players monta has defended the last 5 games:

Stephen Jackson: 7-22, 22 points, 5 turnovers
Joe Johnson: 6-14, 16 points, 2 turnovers
Jodie Meeks: 6-15, 19 points, 1 turnovers
Wesley Matthews: 9-19, 25 points, 5 turnovers
Tyreke Evans: 4-18, 15 points, 5 turnovers

All five of these players shot below-average %, and all five of these players had above-average turnovers.


Your argument that Monta’s defense is “horrible” simply holds no water.

"There’s no reason Monta should be this bad on the boards"

Again, this is the result of our offense. We still run a Don Nelson-style run-first offense. Monta is our fastest player, and our best finisher. Watch him when the shot goes up: he peels out for a fast-break. His intent is not to rebound the ball. Our gameplan is for Mona to be an outlet, and the other four players to rebound. Seriously, watch the game sometime: are you really going to criticize a player for not rebounding the ball when his coach is telling him to be at midcourt by the time the ball is rebounded?

Monta is not a great rebounder. but,
Your argument that Monta is a horrid rebounder holds little water.

"Ray Allen is better at playing winning basketball (playing within himself, not forcing up horrible contested shots like Monta, not turning it over, playing solid defense)"

Let’s go through these one by one:

Playing within himself: this is an intangible. I would argue they are rather even here, though you would surely argue otherwise. I would definitely argue that Ray was not much better at Monta’s age than Monta is now in this category.

Not forcing up horrible shots: I repeat – Monta is the first option on the Warriors. Ray Allen is the fourth option on the Celtics. Monta is asked to carry the team offensively. He is asked to take the shot when the shot-clock is expiring. He is guarded by the team’s best perimeter defenders. None of these are true of Ray Ray.

Not turning it over: Monta’s TOV% (turnover percentage): 12.8. Ray Allen’s: 10.8. Considering that Monta plays point half of the time, whereas Allen plays exclusively off the ball, that’s not so bad. Compare Monta’s TOV%, which comes in his fifth full season to Ray’s fifth full season, when he played a similar combo-guard role for Milwaukee, and you see a negligible difference: 12.8 compared to 12.1.

Playing solid defense: Monta’s defensive rating is higher than Allen’s has been since the 2006-7 season.

Your argument that Ray Allen is superior in all ways to Monta holds no water.

Finally, it needs to be pointed out that, in finding statistics to make your points, you are turning a blind eye to so many other statistics.
You argue that Reggie Williams, Landry Fields and Ronnie Brewer are better than Monta Ellis due to their superior defense, rebounding and efficiency. Yet what are you avoiding? this:

TOV%:
Monta: 12.8
Reggie: 9.6
Landry: 13.8
Ronnie: 12.9

Not only is monta 2nd best in the group, but consider usage:

USG%:
Monta: 28.2
Reggie: 18.7
Landry: 13.4
Ronnie: 13.3

So, let’s do some math:

USG%-to-TOV% ratio:
Monta: 2.20 : 1
Reggie: 1.95 : 1
Landry: 0.97 : 1
Ronnie: 1.03 : 1

This is why I take umbrage with your claims. Monta’s turnover rate is better than two of the three players, yet you claim that as one of his weaknesses. When shown in relation to how much each player actually has the ball, you’ll see that Monta is head and shoulders above these “better” players.

Continuing:

Defensive rating:
Monta: 111
Reggie: 116
Landry: 109
Ronnie: 98

Monta is middle-of the pack. Certainly does not add to your case that Monta’s defense is the reason these 3 are better than he is:

The only thing you claim that you are actually right on, is that Monta is a subpar rebounder. But I addressed that earlier. However, you also avoided other key statistics. How about assists?

ASTper36:
Monta: 4.8
Reggie: 2.7
Landry: 2.9
Ronnie: 2.3

Steals?

STLper36
Monta: 2.1
Reggie: 0.6
Landry: 1.2
Ronnie: 2.3

It appears that you are turning a blind eye to everything that doesn’t support your specious claims.

Finally, incase you’re into this kind of thing:

PER:
Monta: 20.0
Reggie: 14.2
Landry: 14.1
Ronnie: 13.8

Quite simply, your argument holds no water.

From Brady2k on Goldenstateofmind.com

When you compare the advanced stats used here to others in the NBA he is still a very very good player , Hollinger stats are extremely flawed, I remember Philly was in his top 10 in power rankings and the W's were I think 28th when they were 6-2 and Philly had won about 2 games or so. Even now they are ranked WAY too high in his rankings. Monta's defensive rating is good, TS good, eFG good, FG% good, 3% good, steal% amazing, assist% good, TOV ratio isnt great but when you look at Usage % combined with ALL the other stats it all looks extremely good. The smaller his Usage over his career the better the efficiency and TOV numbers look which suggests he's just asked to be a tier 1 super star when he's more around a tier 2 star . For comparison LBJ in Cleveland's usage was 33.9, which is EXTREMELY HIGH, Monta's is 28.2 this season, still really really high. For anothe comparison Steve Nash's usage this season w/o Amare is 24. I repeat 24, one of the best PG's and passers in the NBA is a full 4.2 behind Monta on pretty evenly ranked teams.

Also your hes small for a 2 argument sucks mainly cause his defensive rating says that it has no effect on his defensive ability. He plays like he's 6-7 and defends like it as well

BKKnicksfan
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Wow. I'ma have to put Nateoak

Wow. I'ma have to put Nateoak on the list as one of the more underrated poster here. Bringing the knowledge man.

nateoak10
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Thank you :)

I tried :)

IndianaBasketball
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I don't know... He's super

I don't know... He's super talented, but seems like a player that's just putting up great statistics on a bad team. His numbers aren't really producing wins, making his teammates better or taking the team anywhere significant. The Warriors haven't been to the playoffs since they were led by Baron Davis, Stephen Jackson and Jason Richardson. I mean, where are the Warriors going other than the lottery?

The Warriors aren't playing for anything and their offensive system is statistics friendly. It seems like everybody comes into Golden State and puts up great numbers.

nateoak10
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Indybball

Advanced stats adjust for pace so it doesnt matter if you were the fastest of slowest offense and statisitcally speaking Monta was the 2nd best on those W's teams. And JRich was only there for 1 of the 2 years. And right now were fighting for the 8th seed and so far have had the hardest schedule in the NBA win % wise. People come and put up good PPG and thats it, Monta is a 1st wheel on a 6th-8th seed and a 2nd or 3rd on a champonship team imo

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nateoak comin with the ETHER

nateoak comin with the ETHER

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Yeah to me, Ellis is "rated"

Yeah to me, Ellis is "rated" just fine. He's a very good scorer, dynamic even, but at what point do you look past the empty stats he's putting up and realize he's not as good as his stats show really? He's playing on a team where D-League players look like the 2nd coming. Ellis is better than those guys obviously, but it still doesn't exclude him from the fact that he's putting up inflated numbers on a bad team. Plain and simple.

Kobe Bryant is playing on the same team as Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, and now Andrew Bynum. And D.Wade is playing on a team with Lebron James and Chris Bosh. I'm not surprised at all that he's putting up some better stats than those guys. He's on a worse team and in a more gimmicky offense, and he doesn't have to share the ball with legit All-Star level players. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as Wade and Kobe Bryant, and it's silly to think outwise.

nateoak10
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Look at advanced stats, itll tell you Kobe is not nearly a top 5 NBA player, given his Usage is super duper high (35) but even adjusting for that it's not good. How often do you watch the W's this year? They play a lot more half court under Keith Smart

" he doesn't have to share the ball with legit All-Star level players"

David Lee and Steph Curry

Once again , advanced stats adjust for any type of offense, so that argument sucks. Plain and simple your playing with fire right now and your using your bare hands. Before you fight the advanced numbers you must understand them. They are not all knowing and muct be taken into context but throwing them out cause of a "gimmicky" offense is plain uneducated. I think Kobe is the 2nd best SG in the NBA because I look at both the numbers and his play, he's really skilled, clutch and has a high usage for a reason. But he's not as good as people make him out to be. And the D league guy we have called up with success (Reggie Williams, CJ Watson, Anthony Tolliver) have all proven they are more than capable of being NBA players

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David Lee and Stephen Curry

David Lee and Stephen Curry aren't legit All-Star players. They are good players who put up inflated stats just like Ellis does.

And you use Monta Ellis' advanced stats, which are all variables that are adjusted by pace and not purely on actual games, and then say KOBE BRYANT isn't as good as people thinks? A 5-time NBA champion, MVP and All-Star recipient, and probable top 10-15 All-Time NBA player. Lets go by what we know by watching real games. The Golden State Warriors use a gimmick system, which doesn't win games, allows ANY player to put up stats that are well above what they'd put up in an environment were they'd actually win. Adjusted stats have all kinds of variables that aren't accounted for in game action, and watching games and taking into account that Golden State isn't good, yet there players are putting up big numbers shows that they are putting up empty stats. Monta Ellis included. He's a true 2nd or (more realistically) 3rd option scorer. Plain and simple.

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Now, that was some ether lol.

Now, that was some ether lol.

nateoak10
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Huh?

They are based on actual games, where do they think they get the numbers from? A magic hat? They use pace of a a game combined with shot attempts do to the pace to determine that.

"5 time NBA champion" On some really damn good teams and 3 of the 5 he was the 2nd wheel behind Shaq

You do realize when the Lakers had Magic they ran a extremely similar offense with the show time Lakers right?

You really dont understand advanced stats, the system has zero effect on those numbers, they dont care about your PPG , more about efficiency. For example Corey Maggette came from a slow as sin offense with the Clippers and put up very very similar numbers under Don Nelson. All adjusted stats really do are subtract or add shots to a teams average or players average to the NBA average. but dont take away the players %'s. GSW right now is about a average team, they are young with no backup PG or SF to speak of. I expect them to be about .500 at the end of the year.

"He's a true 2nd or (more realistically) 3rd option scorer. Plain and simple."

Look above, I said those exact words about him above.....

Lee made the all star team and a PG averaging 20 and 6 that gets lots of steals and one of the best shooters in the NBA is all star worthy but he's in the West competing against Kobe, Manu, Monta, Westbrook, Parker, JRich, Kmart, Dwill and CP3 for a spot on the team.

"yet there players are putting up big numbers shows that they are putting up empty stats"

Not really outside of Monta, Curry and Lee. DWright is terribly inconsistent and he's the only one outside of those guys that has provided much. Even Lee hasn't been that good, that being said he does have a massive hole in his elbow and is playing better lately since its healing

nateoak10
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I also said Kobe was the 2nd best SG in the NBA

When I say not as good as people think, I mean he's not nearly the player MJ or Magic was. Not a top 5 player of all time either and not better than LBJ

nateoak10
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Also if you want a halftime update of Monta tonight against Wade

Monta has 16 points, 7 assists on 5-9 shooting and 3-4 from 3

Wade is 3-7 with 9 points after back toback 40 point games and the W's are winning 72-58 and had a lead as high as 20 and they are only missing Biedrins tonight. Monta has gotten what he wants on Wade and put the clamps on him SO FAR . But I expect Miami to come back and LBJ and Wade to take over

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"They are based on actual

"They are based on actual games, where do they think they get the numbers from? A magic hat? They use pace of a a game combined with shot attempts do to the pace to determine that."

They use variables that aren't used in actual games. Like Golden State's gimmicky offense. You have to know that the Golden State offense plays a huge role in the stats he puts up. Even when you use pace adjusted stats. He's simply not as good as his numbers indicate he is. Even when you DON'T use advanced stats.

"5 time NBA champion" On some really damn good teams and 3 of the 5 he was the 2nd wheel behind Shaq"

He's still a 5 time champion, and he's also a NBA MVP and a future Hall of Fame player. Monta Ellis? Not so much.

"Lee made the all star team and a PG averaging 20 and 6 that gets lots of steals and one of the best shooters in the NBA is all star worthy but he's in the West competing against Kobe, Manu, Monta, Westbrook, Parker, JRich, Kmart, Dwill and CP3 for a spot on the team."

Lee made an All-Star at a weak PF position (in the East) on a bad New York Knick team, AS A REPLACEMENT pick, in which David Stern likely looked at his stats and just selected him. Josh Smith was the All-Star. And Stephen Curry is a good player putting up inflated stats, as I said. He's not going to get 20 points a night on any other team besides the Knicks or Suns. He's not an All-Star player.

"Not really outside of Monta, Curry and Lee. DWright is terribly inconsistent and he's the only one outside of those guys that has provided much. Even Lee hasn't been that good, that being said he does have a massive hole in his elbow and is playing better lately since its healing"

Yet their stats are all inflated. Every player on their team except Lee, who's be hurt. And when he heals his stats will get back inflated too.

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"Monta has 16 points, 7

"Monta has 16 points, 7 assists on 5-9 shooting and 3-4 from 3

Wade is 3-7 with 9 points after back toback 40 point games and the W's are winning 72-58 and had a lead as high as 20 and they are only missing Biedrins tonight. Monta has gotten what he wants on Wade and put the clamps on him SO FAR . But I expect Miami to come back and LBJ and Wade to take over"

Yeah that's cute. We all know who's better though and Wade will remind you if you don't win he's playing in May and June and Ellis is on vacation.

nateoak10
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I have not once ever said Kobe isnt a good player

Or hall of famer or MVP.

Its just a lack of understanding the numbers here, history shows your efficiency , rebounding, steals etc are not inflated by a system. Only your PPG are . Once again, PPG ARE inflated, efficiency is not

Explain to me outside of PPG how are the numbers inflated? Rebounding for Lee? Look at rebound rate per minute for anyone. Itll tell you how good of a rebounder someone is despite minutes played or pace.Assists? Assist ratio or Pure point rating

nateoak10
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We all know whos better

Wade is, I called him the best SG in the NBA. Where are you getting the idea I think Monta is some hall of famer? I said 3rd best SG, not best ever . You left out the part where I said Miami will come back and take over. I know we wont be in the playoffs, we dont have the luxury of 3 superstars. We have 3 borderline all stars and scrubs

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I'd take Manu Ginboli and Joe

I'd take Manu Ginboli and Joe Johnson over Ellis. And Brandon Roy too, if not for his knees.

I'd say Ellis is the fifth best shooting guard, with Roy being injured.

nateoak10
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I can respect that

Manu is really really good as well. I personally have him 4th but I can see him at 3rd. Roys knees are gone so I think that will be a thing of the past. He cant have surgery on it either, his knees will be like that or get worse from here on out so I think his all star days are done. Joe? eh, hes not having his usual good season but I can see why someone would take him over Monta. I think between Monta, Manu and Joe you could flip flop any of them 3-5

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Yeah he's the 5th best SG out

Yeah he's the 5th best SG out there probably. He's like 2 or 3 notches below Wade and Kobe though. His topic post put him on the same pedestal as those too, and it's obvious to anyone watching basketball games that Ellis is a great scorer who is putting up stats "too" great for his true player identity. He's a good player, but not as good as stats suggest because he's on a bad team with a gimmick offense.

nateoak10
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The W's arent bad

More like average, and the offense was a gimmick, not as much this year though. We have slowed our pace, scored less and ran less

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Coming into the season, I

Coming into the season, I believe I had Ellis as the 34th best player in the NBA

Is that too high or too low?

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I think Monta would struggle

I think Monta would struggle as a first or second option on a playoff team... I think he is an explosive scorer and an underrated defender, but I question if he would be as effective in the playoffs.. In the regular season I think he could score with anyone, but I feel that when the stakes are higher he isnt mentally tough enough to handle the big stage.. I see him more of a Jason Terry instant offense type for a championship team...

If he is the second best SG in the league, couples things come to mind... Would be make the any non playoff team legit play off teams? Could you put him on a team like the New York, OKC, Utah, New Orleans and his presence would make them legit contenders?

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Monta wont make your team legit

But him on the teams you named and theyd become legit

As for the ranking, it depends on whos in front of him.

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I don't know all the names

I don't know all the names off the top but is that a good range?

nateoak10
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I'd put him around mid 20's

I think I remember the list, hes above Iggy and Granger and Pierce imo

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He's better than Iguodala,

He's better than Iguodala, and he's a push with Granger probably, but he's not better than Paul Pierce.

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I'd put Granger over Pierce

Paul isnt the scorer or defender he was 2 years ago, still clutch but this season hasnt been as good as Granger or Monta. Definately better than Iggy

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Why does everybody care so

Why does everybody care so much about Monta Ellis? He's not leading his team to the playoffs, and they will probably be back in the lottery at the end of the season.

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ellis is a very good player

ellis is a very good player along with lee and curry, but all there stats esp. curry and ellis are somewhat inflated

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I say that the Warriors

I say that the Warriors should try and trade him and get more pieces to make the team better and deeper while he's still playing like this. He's a good player, but I'd still personally revolve the team around Curry.

Ellis isn't a championship caliber 1st option in my opinion, BUT I do believe he fits the new NBA era of "scoring point guards" if he makes the shift to the PG on another team.

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Ellis is rated perfectly

Ellis is rated perfectly fine. He is a wonderful scorer in a system that does not even attempt to guard the opponent anymore (and don't make the argument steals means he is a good defender, watch the game and notice how they are playing pickup game defense). It doesn't make him elite, it doesn't make him bad. Put him in a group with Kevin Martin and call it a day. He isn't on a level with Kobe or Wade. He isn't even on the level of Ray Allen or Manu Ginobili. I think J.R. Smith could easily average 25 in that situation, but the fact that he has a tendency to be an idiot precludes him from having that kind of role on a Nuggets team that is actually trying to win. He could very well end up being in that spot next year if Melo leaves and stays in Denver. That won't make him elite either. Jamal Crawford was basically that guy, and then he grew up when he got out of New York. Corey Maggette was that guy. Eddy Curry was that guy. The value of a player is not by the accumulation of points or any number really (I wouldn't heap praise on Birdman, Reggie Evans, Mike James, or Brevin Knight either), and there is no better case and point than Golden State. Dorell Wright is not any better now than he was in Miami, the difference is the opportunity to score and the lack of accountability on defense. They are 13-20, and on pace for 32 wins. They spent $80 million to add an "All-Star" in David Lee. You claim Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry to be All-Star caliber as well. That seems to be a lot of money and a lot of All-Stars on a team that won't be good enough for a team that won't get out of lottery protection for the pick they gave away. There was that team last night with three All-Stars that woke up when down 20, and started playing defense. They also started going to the hoop instead of settling for jumpers. Notice how that team with three All-Stars can put on runs, take over games, and win at an alarming rate?

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I'm sorry, but did you

I'm sorry, but did you actually watch that game yesterday? The reffing in that game was absolutely absurd. Heat defense was allowed to play as physical as it liked for the majority of the 'comeback', and on the other end, phantom calls and blatantly incorrect calls (like a DWade travel that resulted in a foul) led to the Heat living from the line.

Yes, you can say that the Warriors played sloppily and played afraid after the first half, and you can say that the Heat defense really turned it up a notch, but how much can defense be turned up when you're allowed to hold guys curling off of screens, and you can hack at players coming into the lane and get no calls? My favorite moment was a Monta Ellis make where a Heat player (Joel Anthony, I believe?) clearly fouled him (and even if it was an offensive foul, his feet weren't set AND he was in the restricted area) and it became an offensive foul. Players playing the game notice these sort of non-calls and this leads to them making more and more poor decisions. If you can't drive to the rim, what else is left? Taking bad shots.

Btw, to those who say that Ellis is a bad defender, take another look at what Nateoak said above: look at the guys that he's defended, at least over the last couple of games.

"Stephen Jackson: 7-22, 22 points, 5 turnovers
Joe Johnson: 6-14, 16 points, 2 turnovers
Jodie Meeks: 6-15, 19 points, 1 turnovers
Wesley Matthews: 9-19, 25 points, 5 turnovers
Tyreke Evans: 4-18, 15 points, 5 turnovers"

But of course, that's called not even trying on defense.

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Throw in Wade who also didnt shoot too well

And I completely agree, a couple times Monta got whacked in the face and Stefs jersey was getting pulled blatantly yet we couldnt touch them. And that was EVERY time down the floor

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Bothteamsplayedhard

He WELL above Allen, by far a better defender and numbers will tell you that and offensively is on another planet and even 3 point shooting between there isnt much of a gap. read my 2nd long post i made and it explains why he is much better . JR Smith doesnt have the ball handling ability, break away speed, mid range shooting or ability to get what he wants like Monta.

And why do you say "all star" like that with Lee? Its fact, he was an all star.

Most of the people who say things like that are ignorant to a player cause A) They dont like him

B) Loook at the team and associate it with the player (Pierce was a guy putting up "empty stats" for years in Boston, look at him now,not so empty?)

C)Uneducated about the player and spit out whatever they feel about him w/o looking

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"He WELL above Allen, by far

"He WELL above Allen, by far a better defender and numbers will tell you that and offensively is on another planet and even 3 point shooting between there isnt much of a gap. read my 2nd long post i made and it explains why he is much better . JR Smith doesnt have the ball handling ability, break away speed, mid range shooting or ability to get what he wants like Monta."

He's not really better on D than Ray Allen. Allen is a starter on one of the 2 or 3 best defensive teams in the NBA, and he's proven that he can and will defend. Ellis has better steals numbers, but he only really plays good D when he's matched up on an elite guard like Kobe or Wade, or feels like he has something to prove.

"Loook at the team and associate it with the player (Pierce was a guy putting up "empty stats" for years in Boston, look at him now,not so empty?)"

Paul Pierce played for playoff teams before though, it was obvious he just needed help to become a title player. And even when he put up those empty stats on those bad teams, he was plagued by injuries so he missed action when those teams weren't good, and didn't play in a gimmick system. Ellis has never been to the playoffs when he was a 1st or 2nd option. There is a difference between the 2.

"Uneducated about the player and spit out whatever they feel about him w/o looking"

People are educated. It's always funny when people try and say you're hating just because you have a different opinion about something. Just because he's playing in a gimmick offense on a bad team, and has inflated numbers doesn't mean people are hating on him.

All Ellis is is a one-dimensional scorer who plays in a system that lets him play to his strengths and thus he puts up big numbers on a team that sucks. He's good, but he's not underrated at all honestly.

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All stats say he is

And Ray has some slow feet nowadays, he's the starter on a defense that has Rondo, Pierce, KG, Perkins, Shaq, JOneal and when they won a title Posey and Tony Allen. He doesnt really need to be a good defender to look good there, his job is too shoot and he does it well. There is 0 evidence of Allen being a better defender.

Montas was the 2nd guy on a team that holds the record for most wins w/o being in the playoffs, that counts for something AND its obvious right now Monta needs help, Curry has been on and off this year and has a bad ankle, Lee has been lackluster or Dorell only shows up when he wants too. Add that in with a horrible bench and its obvious you need help.

Once again , all numbers say the W's are a average team, very average. When you look at the record you need to look at the injuries and its not the same offense. Its FAR from it, infact a lot of W's fans want us to go back to the old offense and run more. Don Nelson is gone, not involved, non existent, done, influence destroyed etc. It's not Nellie Ball and its not the same offense. Watch us and you could clearly see that.

I say uneducated cause you obviously have little understand of the numbers or the team or the player . Being able to score every single way, defender very well, get lots of ssteals, run PG and be a very good passer is by no means 1 dimensional. You just threw that out there to make your point sound stronger than it is. And even though were not nellie ball anymore we still play to our guards strenghths, why? Cause thats smart. Gasol is overrated cause he plays in an offense that plays to his strengths as well as Kobe. Does that makes sense ? No , not at all. You dont run a systen to counter your teams strengths, thats what got Terry Porter fired.

Also Boston offered Ray Allen for Monta Ellis last season, they wanted Monta more than Ray and we turned them down

http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2010/1/25/1269701/rumor-monta-ellis-to-boston

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=15093

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/01/monta-ellisray-allen-swap/

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It was unclear who offered what for Ray/Monta

Bay Area guys said it was they wanted Monta and Boston said it was we wanted Ray. Most outlets had us turning them down

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Oh and too Bstons defense

I forgot they had Sheed as well

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"Once again , all numbers say

"Once again , all numbers say the W's are a average team, very average. When you look at the record you need to look at the injuries and its not the same offense. Its FAR from it, infact a lot of W's fans want us to go back to the old offense and run more. Don Nelson is gone, not involved, non existent, done, influence destroyed etc. It's not Nellie Ball and its not the same offense. Watch us and you could clearly see that."

All the numbers expect their 13-20 record. They aren't a good team. They put up offensive numbers like a good team, but they aren't a good team though.

"Montas was the 2nd guy on a team that holds the record for most wins w/o being in the playoffs, that counts for something AND its obvious right now Monta needs help, Curry has been on and off this year and has a bad ankle, Lee has been lackluster or Dorell only shows up when he wants too. Add that in with a horrible bench and its obvious you need help."

He needs help, but he'd be the 3rd option he's supposed to be if they got the kind of help they'd need.

"I say uneducated cause you obviously have little understand of the numbers or the team or the player . Being able to score every single way, defender very well, get lots of ssteals, run PG and be a very good passer is by no means 1 dimensional. You just threw that out there to make your point sound stronger than it is. And even though were not nellie ball anymore we still play to our guards strenghths, why? Cause thats smart. Gasol is overrated cause he plays in an offense that plays to his strengths as well as Kobe. Does that makes sense ? No , not at all. You dont run a systen to counter your teams strengths, thats what got Terry Porter fired."

What's smart about playing a style that's losing games? That's basically what you're saying. The thing that got Terry Porter fired was he did nothing to play effective with the players in his system. If you want to play to your teams strengths AND WIN, you have to get the right kind of players and rebuild. The Warriors need to rebuild, or they will continue to be a bad team. I have watched Golden State enough to know that Monta Ellis doesn't play better D than Ray Allen, no matter who's around him. Especially against SG's. And Monta Ellis one dimensional. He does all those things because he's, once again, in a gimmick offensive system and on a team that plays D like the NBA is an open court basketball league. He'd be a one-dimensional scorer just about any other team. He's one-dimensional on Golden State as it is. And Pau Gasol isn't overrated. He's managed to increase his production alongside Kobe, after playing with below average talent in Mmephis. The Lakers playing to their strengths and being back-to-back champions is no way comparable to Monta Ellis playing to his strengths and his team losing games at an ridiculous rate.

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was he did nothing to play effective with the players in his sys

Exactly, so why would Smart go away from Monta's strengths? Your point makes no sense

Your argument is only your blind opinion that were a gimmick offense and a handful of times watching us. The definition of one dimensional is you only do 1 thing well. Anthony Morrow is 1 dimensional cause he literally cant do anything outside of shooting. Monta can shoot, handle, play defense, steal, pass and drive. Hardly 1 dimnesional, Morrow was in the most gimmicky offense ever and still was 1 dimensional. How do you explain that?

Our pace under Nellie was always top 2, thats a gimmick. Were not in the top 4 anymore, I didnt say Pau was overrated, you just proved my point yourself. He fits in with LA so his production has gotten a lot better, Monta fits in here so his production is good. Were not above .500 cause we have defense at PG or in our starting frontcourt, were injured(starting to get people back and have gone 4-2 in the last 6 ) and have no deph .

You run systems that help your team the most Minny stopped running the triangle cause they sucked at it, they use it only sporatically now.

Give me an in deph explanation how he is 1 dimensional even though there is 0 proof of it.

Hint hint, gimmick offense is not a valid answer

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I never though Monta was a franchise player , ever

You cant make him your 1st guy, if he is you better have a damn good supporting cast. Look at the 3-6 best players at each position, not a lot are franchise guys. Gwallace isnt, Iggy isnt, Granger isnt, nor Manu, JoeJ, Boozer, Bosh, Bogut, Bynum, Pau etc etc

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"Exactly, so why would Smart

"Exactly, so why would Smart go away from Monta's strengths? Your point makes no sense"

Because Monta Ellis isn't the only player on the Warriors. If he was as good as you've said, if he was the 3rd best SG in the NBA why would he have to play in a gimmick system for it to show? Even if he was a top 5 SG it wouldn't take that. He would be able to dominate routinely WITHOUT playing in that system if he was really that good. If the Warriors suck using their current system, why use the same one? That's not smart at all, especially when you should look to rebuild you're team and create your own coaching identity THAT ACTUALLY CAN WIN YOU GAMES. If he wasn't prepared to do those things or doesn't have the coaching saavy to use a system that would work, then he shouldn't have been the coach. And he'll be fired sooner or later, you can't hide that for long.

"Your argument is only your blind opinion that were a gimmick offense and a handful of times watching us. The definition of one dimensional is you only do 1 thing well. Anthony Morrow is 1 dimensional cause he literally cant do anything outside of shooting. Monta can shoot, handle, play defense, steal, pass and drive. Hardly 1 dimnesional, Morrow was in the most gimmicky offense ever and still was 1 dimensional. How do you explain that?"

Anthony Morrow was a one-dimensional shooter, Ellis is a one-dimensional scorer. Everything he does is because of his scoring. He's not a very good defender or passer. You don't have to play good defense to get steals. Ellis' game is scoring the ball for the most part. He's one dimensional in that regard. Morrows is one of themore one-dimensional players out there, but that still doesn't mean Ellis isn't one-dimensional.

"Our pace under Nellie was always top 2, thats a gimmick. Were not in the top 4 anymore, I didnt say Pau was overrated, you just proved my point yourself. He fits in with LA so his production has gotten a lot better, Monta fits in here so his production is good. Were not above .500 cause we have defense at PG or in our starting frontcourt, were injured(starting to get people back and have gone 4-2 in the last 6 ) and have no deph ."

The Warriors system is nearly the same exact as the one Nelson ran. It's a gimmick, plain and simple. Reggie Williams is playing legit minutes on that team. Enough said. And to your claim that you didn't say Pau was overrated?: "Gasol is overrated cause he plays in an offense that plays to his strengths as well as Kobe" And they're below .500 because you play a gimmick system and don't defend.

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Seriously , just stop with the gimmick. you clearly have proven

you have not watched us for more than 5 minutes or closely at all . even the stats show we are much slower. Curry AND Lee AND Wright all fit best in a faster offense, the offense was never designed around him but for players who score well.

And WTF are you talking about with the 1 dimensional shooter? Shooting is a dimension of a players game. So I guess Kobe is one dimensional, so is Melo, and Rose etc. Monta is a very good passer , shooter and driver and defender. How in F is that 1 dimensional? How can you put Morrow and Monta's offensive games in the same sentence ? Morrow can ONLY catch and shoot, literally. Have you ever watched him? Ever? You bring up he's good at steals and scoring... Technically you just bursted your own bubble cause those are 2 things he does really well. So not 1 dimensional even in your mind.

Oh and about my Pau, you left out the part where I said " Does that makes sense ? No , not at all." right after the sentenced you used. So now you either flat out lying, nitpicking to prove your point or just stopped reading what I said all together. Our system isn't the same, this simply proves you have not watched us. Reggie Williams has a TS above 60, for a guard that is incredible, shoots 3's very well and can get to the rim. Given he has no defense but he's more than proven he belongs. Can you give me some fact that proves were the same offense? Or should we just take your already proven uneducated (when it comes to us) opinion on it? We dont defend on the inside outside of Udoh and on the outside other than Dorell and Monta which is true. But did you know we haven't played a single game with our full rotation in 3 years? Or we have only had Monta, Lee and Curry together 13 times this year and have a winning record in those 13? Or We broke the record 2 straight seasons for most games missed by players the last 2 years? And we now hold the record for most Dleague call ups cause of last year? Or there was a game where Curry fouled out and we were so injured we didnt have anyone to sub in for him? What happened was every foul he commiteed was 2 FTs and ball... Ya were that injured

Once again if you can show me proof of us being a gimmick im all ears, unless your proof is we score a lot and are the Warriors.....

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From my post above, you said steals dont equal good defense.....

"Stephen Jackson: 7-22, 22 points, 5 turnovers

Joe Johnson: 6-14, 16 points, 2 turnovers
Jodie Meeks: 6-15, 19 points, 1 turnovers
Wesley Matthews: 9-19, 25 points, 5 turnovers
Tyreke Evans: 4-18, 15 points, 5 turnovers"

Bad shooting and lots of To's

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That doesn't account for

That doesn't account for switches. Who knows if Ellis literally guarded every one of their attempts. I know he couldn't have.

And if the Warriors don't play a gimmick system, then there is no such thing.

"And WTF are you talking about with the 1 dimensional shooter? Shooting is a dimension of a players game. So I guess Kobe is one dimensional, so is Melo, and Rose etc. Monta is a very good passer , shooter and driver and defender. How in F is that 1 dimensional? How can you put Morrow and Monta's offensive games in the same sentence ? Morrow can ONLY catch and shoot, literally. Have you ever watched him? Ever? You bring up he's good at steals and scoring... Technically you just bursted your own bubble cause those are 2 things he does really well. So not 1 dimensional even in your mind."

You didn't read what I put. YOU used Morrow as an example and I commented. I wouldn't have brought him up at all if you didn't mention him. Monta Ellis is a scorer. Nothing else about him is more than mediocre. And why do all your example not make sense? 1st it was the Lakers offense being a gimmick, then Paul Pierce putting up empty numbers, now it's that I guess Kobe, Melo, and Rose are one-dimensional. None of your examples make sense. Monta Ellis is not underrated. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. If he was as good as you seem to think, along with 2 "legit All-Stars" and a "non-gimmick offense", wouldn't the Warriors actually field a good team? At least a team with a .500 record?

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. He'd be a one-dimensional scorer just about any other team

What does that mean? That hell magically be a completely different player an all of a sudden shoot 20% from 3 and stop getting steals? So I guess if Morrow went to the right team he'd be a amazing dunker and have the best crossover in the NBA? You implied he'd be different on a different team. Different production, same player is much more logical

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