I'm sure this isn't an unfamilar topic, and I'm sure it has been brought up multiple times before. But I can honestly say from day 1 I thought the Carmelo Anthony trade was terrible, and it has been.
Consider this- The Nuggets only are really getting production from one player they got in that deal, Gallinari. Chandler is trapped in China, Mozgov is pretty much useless, and they flipped Ray Felton for a semi-washed up Andre Miller. And the Nuggets still feel great about that trade. Not only are they a vastly superior team to the Knicks thanks to the fact they didnt have to be wrapped up in Melo's contract and distractions, but even Gallinari producing in the high teens seems like its giving the team the production it needs from that spot. As I am typing, they are blowing the Clippers off the floor.
The Melo trade was flawed in so many ways that I can not believe all these idiots on TV that said "Its trading for a star, that makes it a good deal". It gutted a decent roster. Im not sure you can win a finals with Amare as your go-to guy, but maybe waiting a year, going after CP3, or waiting for D Will to hit free agency would have been the final touch. The Knicks have never been good with Melo, they were mediocre as hell with him last year, but won a nationally televised game vs. the Heat (which Miami blew) and everyone said "That team is scary". They got blown off the floor against an aging Celtics team that showed no life against Miami, and all I heard from offseason was how great this team would be.
Even if the plan was to bring in CP3, that was totally flawed as well. First off, they don't have the money or assets to do that. Secondly, why would they think the big 3 plan is that perfect? Considering the Heat haven't even mastered it, and they have two of the three or four best players in the league in there big 3, and a power forward who is superior and younger than Amare.
But that plan, which wasn't perfect, had no chance of happening anyway. Melo and Amare are not a great combo. Melo has not been a great winner in this league at all. He had the one year where the Nuggs made the WCF, and other than that hes been out in the first round every single season. Amare was Robin to Steve Nash's Batman in Phoenix, and never even made a finals when they had the best team in the West for acouple of seasons.
But finally we get to the funniest part of this. The notion that blaming it all on Tony Douglas, for not being a good enough point guard, and believing an aging, out of shape, fresh off of a semi-major injury Baron Davis is going to swoop in and distribute so much Amare is gonna think hes playing with Steve Nash circa 2005, is absolutely hilarious. This team will not got any better with Baron, because Baron might not even be better than Tony Douglas.
The bottomline is this. Don't build your team around 2 one dimensional ball hogs, with no money left over, and having to gut your entire roster of its role players and secondary scorers to get one of them. It failed. Now the Knicks should already think about rebuilding.
My question is, Were the Knicks better without Carmelo? And it looks like the Nuggets might be bettter without him.
The Knicks were better without Melo. Just look at their record before he got there. They traded four solid assets to get him. They could have used them to get CP3 if they wanted to go with the superstar plan, or gotten better a different way, and had money to spend. Instead they are wrapped up with Two ball hogs and a terrible Roster.
Lets not overlook the "great" Tyson Chandler signing:
Dallas is 5th in the league in opponents PPG.
BREAKING NEWS: Nobody needs Melo (JK). Defensive liabilities hurt a lot worse than offensive. I think the lineup they had without melo with Shumpert, Fields, Douglas, Stoudamire, and Chandler looked like the best team they've lined up with all year. It was that game against the heat that they almost won. Now clearly Im not saying Melo isn't a great player but that lineup was very defensive minded and counter-acted anything stoudamire couldn't do. With 2 liabilities on defense they can't make up for it. Whichever player they don't have makes the team better not because the team is worse or because the player is worse its just the fact that defensively they have too much trouble with both of them on the court. They are capable of handling 1 but not 2. I think their best option would be to trade one of them. Make sure they get a defensive minded player and a good role-player.
and the Nuggets just mesh well and if everyone does their part they can be a championship contender but since they are a team and not a couple of superstars they can't have anyone not doing their job but I trust the 12 players we have over Melo anyday.
Ya i think if they still had there old team in NY without Melo, then went out and signed Chandler i think they would be a much more complete team with Felton, Wilson Chandler and Gallinari. With Amare as their go to guy.
On another quick note, assuming the Nuggets get Wilson Chandler back, what is their ceiling? I think they got a REALLY tough matchup last year, but I can see them getting to WCF this year.
I think their main thing was they needed Chris Paul instead of Carmelo. And just needed a Defensive SF.
Jae- Im not sure, only because the West is so weird right now nothing would actually surprise me. The 3 old teams (Dallas, San Antonio, and the Lakers) all have major flaws. The favorite (Thunder) have an issue where they only have 3 players on their entire roster who can score. I believe this is a problem, and they arent great in crunch time/pressure situations. Therefore, the deep teams, such as Denver, Portland, and Houston may have sleeper potential, and in Denver's (the best of the 3) case, they could conceivably win the conference. Would I bet on it? No. But the most talented team in the conference just lost to them by 21. I still like the Clips, but they have some major flaws and need K Mart badly. But CP3 is so good in crunch time I think they are going to be a tougher out than most people give them credit for.
Andre Miller , semi washed up? 7 assists per game isnt bad for a back up point IMO
I hate 2 use excuse but Nash and Amares last year together , They were only two wins away from a finals appearance. They year before that, Amare was injured, and the Year before that , was the year of that B.S. call that got Amare suspended.
The Melo trade was a classic case of a team desperate for a splash publically that they sacrificed team concept for a "Star". This is a classic New York Move. It was a big trade no doubt, but just because both guys are "Stars" doesnt mean your team is going to automatically be better.
Melo doesnt fit D'Antoni's scheme at all, he needs to ball and doesnt create for others. Which has hurt Stoudemire, because he really doesnt need to ball, but he needs somebody to pick for and somebody to dump him the ball on the move. That has never been Melo's game.
is d'antoni. He is a good offensive coach but that's it. He can't play defense he does not get his players going he needs to leave now. The rosters is not very good but they could be doing a lot better with better coaching
Andre Miller is absolutely better then Raymond Felton so.....I don't get that point. Everything else makes sense tho. The Knicks really need a PG. A good one. If they had a good PG to restore order out of that chaos they would be dangerous. But as of right now they are running their offense through Melo and he's a ball stopping scoring forward in a ball motion quick pace offense. It's like the worse possible combination.
I think New York lacks good guard play and also needs a better coach.
Denver is a team built for the regular season but just like last year when the Playoffs comes you need that guy who's going to deliver a big shot when you need it, every great team had that.
We can judge this trade in another year or so when the Knicks finish out there roster, they're incomplete so its unfair to say who won. As neither team won a playoff series last year and to be technical if STAT and Billups dont get hurt like they did, I see that series going 6 or 7 games
Mello trade was all about Dolan landing another star who he thinks will put the Knicks on the map.
They'll get in the playoffs as a 7th or 8th seed and get 2 more home playoff games this year which is enough for him. The main problem with the Knicks besides giving up all those chips for Mello is they have no PG.
Douglas is the worst PG in the league.
All that stuff about the trade has been said so many times. I love when ppl say Mozgov sucks then why did Denver insist he be in the deal. Mello isn't worth Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov 2 1st rounders and they gave up Anthony Randolph.
This was in the new last year February before the trade went though.
Knicks GM Donnie Walsh and head coach Mike D'Antoni nixed a deal that would have sent Anthony to the Knicks in exchange for Danilo Gallinari, Raymond Felton, a first round draft pick, Eddy Curry's expiring contract, and one more starter whose identity was not confirmed.
The Daily News also reported that Knicks owner James Dolan may overrule his staff in this case and execute the trade.
As for the Tyson Chandler signing was the right move over Billups for the long run, how many more years do you think Billups has left before his production really falls off. Also the Knicks had no intimidator inside getting dunked on and killed at the rim isn't gonna help you be elite.
Blaming D'antoni would be dumb he's not the Gm and no PG in his system makes no sense. Donnie Walsh is no longer the Gm that should tell you something he couldn't deal with Dolan anymore.
Anyway hopefully the Knicks can still salvage something this season.
Fields is starting to play well 1st time since the trade. If Mello and Amare learn to play together with Fields, Chandler, Shumpert and Harrelson they have a nice building block for the future.
They could have got Melo as an FA last summer or as an S and T on draft day and kept the bulk of the players they sent to Denver but hindsight is always great. I do wonder if the Knicks actually " need to win" they make a load of money and with the stars there shift a load of merchandise and thus make a profit.
Also funny how both Melo and D-Will are on team's with far worse records than the ones they were traded from.
Yes, this has all been discussed before. Dolan needed to get Melo. He is an idiot and when you negotiate with an idiot you can take advantage of them. There was and maybe still is a view out there that Melo was one of the elite players in the game (some people on this draft board before the trade talked about Melo being a top five player). He is not. I think maybe now people are getting it. He is not a top ten player. He might not be a top 20 player. Eventually even the Melo lovers who can't get over the 25 points a game he scores are understanding that there is a problem with his game.
But don't give up on this team. Tony Douglas really has been epically bad. He is using 25% of his teams plays but has a true shooting percentage of less than 40%. Nobody since they started keeping these stats has finished a season shooting that much and at the same time shooting that badly. Let that sink in. This is an all time low and the Knicks are trying to contend with that. Keep in mind that their other point guard, Mike Bibby, just got off a playoff run where he put up the worst stats since they started recording advanced stats for a player who played more than 20 minutes a playoff game. That is out of more than 1,200 qualifying players. The guy averaged less than 4 points, 2 rebounds and 1 assist in 20 minutes of court time. He is continuing to average about that for the Knicks though granted he is doing a little better because that is only over 14 minutes a game. Let that sink in again. That is why Baron Davis could be a savior. That is why Jeremy Lin could be a savior. That is also why Tony Douglas just choosing not to shoot so much could also be a savior. There is a lot of room for growth when you have a position being filled by two guys playing at ALL TIME BAD levels.
Never liked that trade for NY but hey they wanted attention the big name. Denver got the better end if the trade and Gallo plays on both ends.
How are the Knicks going to finish out their roster? They do not have much money, and they are stuck right now with 8-9 complete scrubs.
Saying the Knicks "needed" this deal is absurd. They could have made a similar swap with New Orleans this year for CP3, and would have been in way better shape. And needing a star is only a media thing. Real basketball decision makers are supposed to do whats best for their team.
Lets not forget the Nuggets lost to OKC last year. Its not like they got to the playoffs and were completely lost. They got beat by a pretty darn good team.
Completely unfair to judge this as of now. Knicks really got hurt by the lockout and no training camp, how many games has this team played together? 22? They were beat up in the playoffs last year, and this year they don't have a point guard, which really hurts amare's game. Carmelo's a top ten player, almost every team makes that trade. And Chandler just got there in the offseason its obviously gonna take time, if you thought they were gonna come out and dominate your expectations are too high. They'll be a low seed in the playoffs, just like before they made the trade, but i'd rather move forward with Melo, Amare, and tyson rather than felton, gallo and chandler (mozgof is a bum doesnt count).
So raspy, i disagree. Melo and Amare don't play well together. At all. They got beat up in the playoffs last year? Yeah, they did, because they stunk. Im not sure what this has to do with this year though...
Any time you trade 4 decent to really good players who are young and promising for one guy who is great but has some big time flaws, early on, it should favor the team that got more players. The Knicks need time to rebuild their team especially since right now, they have no legit point guard and Denver has two.
Knicks gave up too much to get Melo and should have held back of some of the players they gave up on.
I think next season when they have a legit point guard and can get some more solid pieces on their bench, it will be a clear advantage for the Knicks.
The new Knicks have been together less than the pieces that were trade. Last night against Chi town shows how good they can be because Chicago is a good team.