Manu Ginobili: If he were a starter & played more mpg?
Manu Ginobili has always been one of my favorite players. Some of the youngsters on here may not remember this guy's style of play when he first entered the league... but he was flashy, explosive, crafty, and possessed an unbelievable basketball IQ from the get-go.
I've always wondered how his overall perception to fans, plus his input on the stat sheet, would have changed if he were given starters' minutes throughout his entire playing years (career 25mpg). Although I think he's a first ballot HOF'er... I'm not sure everyone feels the same way as me. Let's compare his career per 36' stats to some other multi All-Star and All NBA performing Wings & SG's:
- Manu Ginobili (per 36): 19.1pts, 5.1rebs, 5.4assts, 1.9stls, 45%fg
- Grant Hill (per 36): 17.7pts, 6.4rebs, 4.4assts, 1.3stls, 48%fg
- Reggie Miller (per 36): 19.1pts, 3.2rebs, 3.1assts, 1.1stls, 47%fg
- Paul Pierce (per 36): 20.7pts, 5.9rebs, 3.7assts, 1.4stls, 44%fg
- Joe Johnson (per 36): 16.8pts, 4.1rebs, 4.1assts, 0.9stls, 44%fg
- Ray Allen (per 36): 19pts, 4.1rebs, 3.4assts, 1.1stls, 45%fg
Now granted the above players were playing most of their minutes against the opposing teams starters, and in many cases their best perimeter wing defender. Ginobili absolutely was closing games, hitting clutch shots, and making key defensive plays at the end of contests no doubt... but he was also doing a lot of his damage on the stat sheet against opposing team's bench units.
So where does everyone else stand on Manu? Do you all believe he's an all-time great and first ballot HOF lock, or do you view his career more as an elite role player that benefited moreso from Popovic/Duncan/Parker/Kawhi's brilliance?
I think if he had been given more minutes, his talent could have easily made him one of the premier SGs in the league for a couple seasons (at least numbers wise). The problem though is I honestly don't think he would have been healthy enough to get those numbers year after year. Like you said he's a career 25 mpg, yet he's missed numerous games every season over the years with various injuries. I think he plays with so much passion and aggression that he would have wreaked his body over the seasons and ended up with a shorter career (yet with maybe a few more statistically glamorous seasons). To me, he is a Hall of Fame player whose talents and playing style was managed perfectly by the Spurs organization and Greg Popovich.
Kobe amazes due to his size and ability to do everything a 2 guard does on the court, its really amazing to be 6'7'' and do what he did.
Manu was great and was his contemporary and great to see them battle. A lot of those guys you listed brought back a lot of memories.
The SG is one of the lost positions in the NBA, along with back to the basket PF and C, like Webber, Shaq, Duncan etc. You see it fading with Wade, Manu, etc slowing down and leaving hte game. Its probably the most dynamic skilful position too, which is sad. I think everyone grows up wishing he was the Shooting Guard, its like the shortsstop of the infield.
Harden is now a PG. Klay is probably one of the few true sized SG left in the league. Not too many left which is strange.
Agree with you on Klay. He's been one of my favs for quite some time.
But I'd have to diagree on there not being any more SGs left. Thompson aside, you have:
Butler (if you want to consider teams like Lakers having two PGs, you have to consider Bulls having two SGs)
Even players like Kent Bazemore and Rodney Hood are coming into their own and Avery Bradley was having a nice year before the injury. Factor that in with players coming into the draft, position looks promising for years to come.
Manu was the second best player on most of those Spurs title teams, and his game would have thrived in any era. With a greater role his career could have resembled James Harden, with whom his game shares many similarities (Harden is better at getting to the line, Ginobili showed more effort on defense. The only real argument that Ginobili is overrarated is that health is a skill, and his style of play prevented him from carry more of the burden. His peak BPM (8.1) his higher than any player on that list (though Hill basically equaled it in his 96-97 season). Compare Manu and Harden for yourself.
To name a few legit sized sg.
is 6'5''? Looks like he's 6'3'' I've seen him up close.
Booker and Thompson are the torchbearers. Beal and Oladipo are nice too. CJ McCollum as well. Thompson is the only real 2 way 2-guard in that list.
Certainly not a first ballot HOFer in my opinion. I think he eventually gets in due to his international play, but overall, I'd say his NBA career alone is not enough to be a HOFer.
Manu's bare career stats aren't mind blowing but he played a key role in 4 title winning teams as well as winning an Olympic Gold so he will deserve HOF consideration when he is eligible. Being an international player will also help his cause too maybe.
Tim Duncan is a HOF lock so is Coach Poppovich but I feel that Manu deserves as much consideration as Tony Parker in due course.
Manu's longevity has probably been helped by keeping his minutes down and it says something that he is one of the few NBA players who have played the majority of their games post the age of 30.
He also won euroleague.
He probably is alone in winning Euroleague, Olympics and the NBA title. That achievement would make him an HoF candidate even if he could not play.
When you look at his career as a whole, there are many players who just were not as good or impactful yet made it to the HOF.
The fact his career numbers are comparable to Harden's when most of his NBA career has been north of 30 is very significant also. People tend to forget he came to the league at 26.
One thing people fail to address with HoF voting is that it's for his entire career and not only NBA career. His contributions overseas, and international play, along side his career as a Spur in my eyes are more than enough for him to be a first ballot.