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Let me better explain myself...

joecheck88
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Let me better explain myself...

With all this Love trade talk, I've posted numerous times that I think giving up Wiggins is too much and would be a mistake. It has received heavy backlash and I've been told I'm in the minority. So with that being said here is my whole argument in 1...

First off, I get Wiggins isn't proven and Love is but to me I think he's a sure fire star in the making and that he will improve immensely over his first 3 years. I believe Wiggins has more value than Love because of his potential as a lock down defender. Wiggins will be a top 10 player. The Cavs by keeping and retaining Wiggins after his rookie contract will be a title contender for the next 8 years(and longer if he stays after his second contract).

Now don't get me wrong. Love makes The Cavs a contender. They will contend for the next 5 years but Lebron will eventually age. It's asking too much of him to lead the team offensively and defensively for longer than the next 5 years(and maybe sooner).

If it me I wouldn't include Wiggins in a trade for Love. I think the Cavs have enough to offer the Wolves without him especially if another team is added. I just envision the perimeter defense Lebron and Wiggins can provide with Andy V taking charges and TT blocking shots.

Either way the Cavs are contenders I just think they keep their window open longer with Wiggins.


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Cavs should ask for Dieng and

Cavs should ask for Dieng and Muhammad if they include Thompson, Bennett and Varejao wih Wiggins.

joecheck88
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I get what you're saying. I'm

I get what you're saying. I'm not sure the Wolves would want to give up Love plus 2 recent 1st round picks. It's a bit counter productive. I think the Cavs need to take back a couple guys that can help though or they will lack a bit of depth. If a trade does happen I think it'll have to be at least 3 teams with Barea, Martin, Budinger leaving in some combo. If Cleveland can take back Budinger I think it helps them a bit as well.

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Done deal

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11289379/minnesota-timberwolves-talkin...

Here you go, Stein has the pulse of the NBA more than all of us on here put together. In 3 weeks it'll be a done deal.

joecheck88
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That's all good and well. I

That's all good and well. I read it earlier. Thanks. The point was to take all my points from various threads about why I think they shouldn't make the trade.

Its not a post about whether they will or not. It looks likely to go through and we will find out in a few weeks for sure but again, that's not why I made the post.

NeggedAlterEgos...
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yeah Im not the biggest

yeah Im not the biggest wiggins fan he has a lot to work on I like him but im more a fan of finished products and killers which I don't think wiggins is.

I think he may surpass his upside playing with LeBron who wont let him bust, shooters like mike miller etc, and a gaurds like dion, and irving. he will pick a lot up in training,practice, also blatt .

so I think they should hold out if they give up to much their not deep enough or have the chemistry to win it all.

the reasons he left Miami he was locked into something that had a short window he opted out.

yes irving and love will make a longer window for lebrons championship goals.

but wiggins/dion/bennet/picks/Tristan could as well.

in all honesty they could move varejo and a pick for larry sanders if the bucks really don't want him okafor comes out next year so.

they could always work with a salary dump team to get love in a sign and trade.

ppl do not want to acknowledge this option idk why. but they can give up fewer assets in a sign in trade then a flat out trade with the wolves.

the heat had a more proven roster and didn't win a ship their first year.

the mavericks look good, okc will be in the mix the east is open but this isn't Miami. the cavs are a losing team LeBron will make them win but even he knows this year not to expecrt much they could make a run sure with our without love but if we learned nothing from these past seasons don't deplete your depth and assets to get a player now you can get easily in the summer. AND KEEP WIGGINS.

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how to contend

The Spurs showed us (and will contiunue fot at least 1 more year) how you make a contending team - team play, tough D, depth and lots of shooting. SAS lack the stardom Miami and CLE had/have. Sure, Duncan and Ginobilli (multiple all-stars and future HOFers) are great, but they're way past their prime, plus Tony Parker - a top 5 point guard, imo, and finally Kawhi Leonard - a breaking out stud, who still lacks consistency. I'm not neglecting Diaw's, Green's or Splitter's contribution, but my point is that Cavs shouldn't be obligated to form a new big 3 (Bron, Love, Kyrie) so to win a title(s). That's why I fully agree with OP - Wiggins is too much for Love, Cavs should keep Wiggins and use their cap space for a productive young rim protector and a couple of 3 & D guys, leave the rest to LBJ

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The Cavs will be giving up

The Cavs will be giving up Wiggins. Bennett and first rounder. Not sure when people thought the Cavs were going to gut their roster for Love. The Cavs will not be trading Waiters and Wiggins its one or the other.

caray12
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Wiggins

Andrew Wiggins is not a sure thing top 10 player. What if he's a bust and the Cavs could've had Kevin Love? Andrew Wiggins will benefit for the Cavs long term plan but LeBron James is on a championship quest and he wants to win as soon as possible. He don't want to be a part of a rebuilding process.

You can't get Kevin Love and keep Andrew Wiggins. A lot of teams can offer more for Kevin Love such as the Warriors, Bulls, Houston, Boston, Washington, and mostly every other team. If the package don't include Andrew Wiggins It's going to be a package built around Anthony Bennett. And Anthony Bennett is not a great NBA player and is well regarded as a bust. It's like going to the Wizards and they build a package focused on Otto Porter (who is also a bust). If Anthony Bennett is the focus point in Cleveland package I would go straight to Golden State and just get Harrison Barnes and David Lee.

LeBron James wants Kevin Love and he's going to get Kevin Love.

joecheck88
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No he isn't a top 10 player

No he isn't a top 10 player right now. I believe he will be and sooner rather than later. I've stated I believe he will become a very good player by year 2. Keeping everyone and adding Lebron James isn't exactly rebuilding. They'll be a top 3 team in the east with a good chance of advancing to the finals.

Your argument that Bennett and Porter are busts is silly. Sure their value is down from this time last year but they are 2 second year guys that had injuries their first year.

Iits just simply my opinion that he won't busy and that the Cavs may look back of they trade him and regret what could've been.

Im not debating that if Cleveland really wants Love they have to give up Wiggins. They probably do. I just don't think it really benefits them outside of the first 2 years if that.

caray12
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Opinion

Yeah, you THINK he can be a top 10 player. You don't know for a fact that Andrew Wiggins will be a top 10 player. I don't know he probably will he a bust or he might be a top 10 player but we don't know. Kevin Love IS a top 10 player in this league that put up 26 points and 13 rebounds per game last year that played in a tougher western conference facing Anthony Davis, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, Blake Griffin, and more tough competition every night. I would trade a unproven player for probably the best power forward in the game in a heartbeat.

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Yes I THINK! That's the whole

Yes I THINK! That's the whole point of the thread. Not to say they won't or it won't happen. To say I don't THINK they should. Do you guys even read a thread or just graze over it and make your own opinion on what it's about?

caray12
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Yes

Yep, I READ your THREAD. And it's states an opinion of what you think the Cavs should do and that you BELIEVE that Andrew Wiggins going to be a top 10 player. I've stated my OPINION about those two subjects and gave my own OPINION about what should the Timberwolves should do if Andrew Wiggins is not apart of the deal ( off subject ). AND I CAN WRITE WHAT I WANT TO WRITE. LOL

joecheck88
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Then by your theory the

Then by your theory the Wolves should take Lee and Barnes. They are more proven than Wiggins. Take the proven guy right? There is a reason Minny wants Wiggins and that is because most feel he will be a top player. That right there is why I wouldn't do it. His value is already more than an all star and a young and up&coming performer in Harrison Barnes.

Never said you couldn't write what you wanted. Again you must be forming an opinion based on something else entirely.

caray12
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Theory

We are talking about what the Cavs have to offer and what the Timberwolves are willing to take. Yes Andrew Wiggins have potential and the Wolves are willing to bet on it. But just because analyst and talking heads say he will great doesn't mean be will be great. If he was so valuable to the Cavs he would be untouchable if he was viewed as greatly as you acclaimed.

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I am with you 100% OP. I

I am with you 100% OP. I understand Love makes them contenders immediately, but having Wiggins keeps that window open at least 8 years in my opinion. Wiggins would allow LeBron to get rest on defense and make his transition to PF much easier as he gets older. Love is a great fit next to LeBron right now and I would give anything up other than Wiggins and Irving, but in 3 years I believe Irving would be a much better fit.

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As a lifelong Cavs fan, I'd

As a lifelong Cavs fan, I'd rather win one championship THIS year than worry about how good we'll be in three, five, or eight years. I understand all good franchises have sustainability in mind, but if you're constantly selling the "right now" for the "maybe later," you will never have a "right now."

joecheck88
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That's a fine point. It very

That's a fine point. It very well may work out that way. He'll I even said with Love they contend for probably 5 years. So if you feel it's worth it for Love then by all means go for it. Cleveland is playing with house money. Lebron came back, it a win no matter what happens. I'm just saying I'd take the gamble and keep Wiggins and Bennett. That the current core will be contenders for 8-12 years depending on contracts and such. Have the potential to contend even post Lebron.

If you'd rather have the guaranteed contention for 3-5 years by all means do it. IMO, by year 2 a team of Lebron, Wiggins, Waiters, Irving, Bennett, Thompson and Varejao will be as good as with Love and minus Wiggins and Bennett in year 1.

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Kevin Love being a Cav is a

Kevin Love being a Cav is a done deal. It was damn near a done deal the moment LeBron announced he was returning to Cleveland. LeBron is a smart man. His letter was "touching" and great for PR/his image, but why do you think he didn't mention Andrew Wiggins and Anthony Bennett in it lol? People underestimate just how smart LeBron is. He doesn't do anything that isn't thought out. He's being held as a "hero" of some sort for returning to Cleveland, but this is really not much different than what he did in 2010. He jumped ship from a team who's window was closing and onto the ship of a team who's window could be open for the next five years or more. The Cavs may not have been great record wise, but the team was a gold mine in regards to young talent having won three #1 picks since he left, plus having other assets.

I can understand wanting to keep Wiggins, but when one of the best players the world has ever seen decides to re-join your franchise and completely change it, plus your entire city... You worry about NOW, not later. The Cavs sold out season tickets in less than 10 hours after his decision. LeBron brings so much money to the Cavs franchise and the entire city... You do what he wants. Plus with the way his contract is structured, he has every single bit of leverage.

Kevin Love is a 25 year old who's averaging 26, 13 and 4. He's literally the perfect fit to LeBron. And Love's game isn't based on athleticism. As long as he stays healthy, he'll play at a high level for the next 5-7 years.

Kyrie Irving, LeBron James and Kevin Love... That's almost unfair. They'll need to add a couple of more pieces and put in a great scheme defensively, but that team could win the title 3/5 years.

joecheck88
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Agreed. Once again not

Agreed. Once again not arguing they can't win trading Wiggins for Love. I'm not debating it won't happen. I'm stating why I wouldn't make the trade. I like Wiggins and his versatility defensively in terms of helping Lebron get some rest and age easier. I think at worst you drafted a Kawhi Leonard with higher upside. That's my opinion. Having that option allows the Cavs to use Lebron in different ways and gives him some nights off in terms of guarding other teams bigger 2's and 3's.

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I'm with you, but think about

I'm with you, but think about what you're saying though...

LEBRON JAMES ***wants*** Kevin Love. The T-Wolves want Andrew Wiggins in the deal and they've slammed their fist down about him being included. Are you saying you'd tell LeBron no???

LeBron, Love and Kyrie... It's be damn near like cake to add some defenders on that team since guys will be willing to take paycuts to join that sqaud. It's damn near an automatic opportunity to compete for a championship the next five years or more.

joecheck88
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I'd tell Lebron I'll try my

I'd tell Lebron I'll try my best to secure Love but you, Kyrie and Andrew are untouchable. I'll try any conceivable thing to get Love and keep those 3 guys.

The longer the Wolves keep Love, the lower his value becomes. He isn't coming back and they need to get something for him. Waiters, Bennett, picks should be enough of an offer to consider. Bring in another team if you need. It'll still come down to that offer, Chicago's or GS' Love isn't going to resign anywhere else that can make a legitimate offer.

What is Lebron gonna do? Scorn Cleveland after 2 years? I don't see that happening and if he does you have back to back playoff berths with Wiggins going into year 3 and Kyrie with playoff experience.

Thats just me and I get most people aren't on the same page.

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the facts for Joe Schmo

Lebron only signed a ONE year deal w/ a 2nd year PLAYER option.

Lebron wants to play with Kevin Love.

If Kevin Love is not a teammate to Lebron this coming year he will have more than enough reason to justify signing with the Knicks - or whom over - NEXT offseason.

Anyone on the same page as you is an idiot.

TheTruth86
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You are making a good point,

You are making a good point, but do not forget that Kyrie and KLove are players who tend to miss a number of games (almoust) every year due to injuries. Having 3 max players would hurt Cavs' depth, that's inevitable, so theres a risk for LeBron get in a situation, he was in Miami last year. The big 3 to become the big one and a half.

IIwII
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lebron may be smart and have a photographic memory and all

But if you remember correctly, it was his wanting to play GM in Cleveland the first time around that cost the city (and himself) a championship. He's following in Jordan's footsteps in more ways than one.

juves4783
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i'd keep wiggins. play the

i'd keep wiggins. play the season out. have varajao restructure his contract. sign marc gasol.

is there enough shots for irving, waiters, james and love? doubtful. they could use a guy that wants to come in and do the dirty work. that's why i like gasol.

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Why do people believe they

Why do people believe they are going to have cap room next season?

NeggedAlterEgos...
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the warriors signed iggy in

the warriors signed iggy in free agency with no caproom but through sign and trade with Utah.

benny15
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treu, my warriors did not

treu, my warriors did not have the needed cap space so we dealt richard jefferson, brandon rush and biedrins to utah to create the cap space, but it cost us 2 first round picks. denver received randy foye in a sign and trade in the deal.

what makes this scenario different is that i doubt anyone would help the cavs sign arguably the most coveted free agent next off-season. and even if i a team did show up to extend a helping hand, i think it would cost them more than just 2 first round picks.

NeggedAlterEgos...
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QESTION TO ALL CLE FANS WHAT

QESTION TO ALL CLE FANS

WHAT IF THEY TRADE FOR LOVE AND DONT REACH THE FINALS AT ALL LOSE TO THE BULLS, CHA, IND AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST MIA they can actually lose to the heat in a playoff series.

WHAT IF THE TRADE FOR LOVE AND LOSE???????????????

TO THE LIFE LONG CAV FAN YOU REALLY JUST WANT ONE SHIP THIS YEAR THATS ALL???? SO IF THEY FAIL.......

you have essentially giving up wiggins to win a ship now when you could have waited until the summer and got him somehow someway and kept wiggins

THATS SO SHORT SIGHTED YOU WANT TO WIN A SHIP BUT RATHER TAKE A 5 YEAR WINDOW RATHER THEN A 8+ YEAR WINDOW.

IN 4 YEARS A BETTER HEAT TEAM ONLY WON 2 !!!! LOST THEIR FIRST YEAR ALSO.

everybody says love this love that . i don't think this would happen but ....WHAT IF LEBRON UPS AND LEAVES AGAIN BECAUSE THATs WHAT THE RUSH IS ABOUT WHAT IF THEY FAIL AND LEBRON UPS AND LEAVE OPTS OUT AFTER 1 YEAR LOL ..YOU RUSHED A TRADE TO MAKE HIM HAPPY FAILED , HE GETS BACKSTABBED BY CLE FANS AGAIN AND HE LEAVES.

You have giving ya good deal of your FUTURE AWAY. from a smart standpoint of a team that has got burnt why ?

its dumb to me why not keep both.

1.varejo gets injured who comes in at center TRISTAN? then who backs up love and Tristan ? lol

2. kyrie or love gets injured ......championship dreams on hold

3. the cavs need a year to sort it out and get bounced earlier in the playoffs.?

4. they win a ship

5.dion gets traded for not getting along with these LeBron, irving or love and is un willing to play as 6th man , the locker room dysfunction continues so hes traded if not already gone in love trade .

your down 2 guards, cap room, and picks who players sg full time mike miller?

a lot of things can go wrong this season leading them to not win a ship vs the latter

why give UP WIGGGINS!! WHEN THERE ARE SALARY DUMP TEAMS WHO WOULD LOVE TO OCRCHSTRA A SIGN AND TRADE FOR LOVE .

also by waiting you can add another player like a shot blocking/defensive center

take one or two of those future draft picks and pair them with Anderson

for a MCGEE,sanders,bismack +, some kind of or combination of players.

Theres more flexibility if they don't do a trade with wolves . FACT

wolves trade only nets you love

not trading for but trade & signing love nets you plenty of option to do with your other assets YOU STILL WOULD HAVE.

Alter_Ego
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why are you so stupid? please stop talking!

why are you so stupid? please stop talking!

NeggedAlterEgos...
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one of the reason sign and

one of the reason sign and trade exist is so teams that are capped out can still be active in free agency.

TheArtistPaysth...
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Joecheck88

Would you feel more comfortable if Gordui Dieng was in the deal? If it was Wiggins, Bennett and a pick (MIA) for Love and Dieng I would feel better. Any Wiggins deal should somehow help our problem at center. Andrew Wiggins right now is the second best rim protector on this team right now.

I agree with you that you shouldn't trade Wiggins for Love at least just yet. It doesn't help long term and I prefer the Spurs dynasty to the 4 and out Heat flameout. Why rebuild the Heat when we can rebuild the Spurs except with Lebron James.

joecheck88
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It would ease it a bit but

It would ease it a bit but I'm not sure the T Wolves would give him up. I'm a Dieng fan and it would be nice to have some depth behind Andy V.

The trade doesn't kill their depth completely. What worries me is that Lebron is the only perimeter stopper on the team. Can a competent backup be had for cheap? Probably but not with the talent, athleticism and potential on offense that Wiggins has.

Honestly Corey Brewer would be a nice pickup if affordable(almost 5m per). I just would like to see a couple 3&D guys with Cleveland so Lebron can take a night off here and there. He's almost 30 with lots of minutes played in the NBA regular season, playoffs and team USA. I'd prefer that his minutes start progressively lowering soon if he is my long term go to guy. It would be nice for a guy like Brewer to take the main guy on opposing teams a few nights a year.

Its just tough for me to give Wiggins up because I believe his talent will be great. His value on both sides of the ball will be higher than just Loves's offense and rebounding. We will see how it works out tho.

Alter_Ego
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U2

look the two biggest idiots on this site are teaming up!

SeamusRooney
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Corey Brewer

Ty Lawson broke Corey Brewer's ankles dawg, Lebron don't want that ex teammate of Joakim Noah on his team yo. Kyrie gonna be breaking Brewer's ankles every practice.

joecheck88
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Lol. The point is a 3&D

Lol. The point is a 3&D player. Brewer can do that.

Did you not see this man put up 50?!?! Lol

SeamusRooney
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Just Brew It

Nike should just sponsor dirtbag Brewer and have Just Brew It shirts to go along with it, Cleveland would be the new Location for tourists. Slide over Johnny Fooseball, Ankles comin into town with 2 NCAA championships and a new set of ankles. Minnesota was the past.

SeamusRooney
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Ohio the State of former Gators

Who thought Urban Meyer was the only former Gator in the state of Ohio? Brewer is gonna be in town.

NeggedAlterEgos...
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joe this guy ruined a good

joe this guy ruined a good thread but chris paul, howard, carmello,james harden, where all traded for much less.

so giving wiggins ,bennet, dion/Tristan ( another players has to be traded ) and 1-2 future picks.

instantly beats out what other teams got the only notably players Denver got from melo was danilo, and Wilson, Raymond was a key kog to the knicks but not important to Denver .

so wiggins can be a star and the rest can be starters and sixth men on most teams along with 1 to 2 draft picks for love. that's more then any star player who was in the last year of a deal got in any recent trade.

sign and trade next off season for him, see what you can do with this core this year.

don't budge if love isn't sent to the cavs MORE TIMES THEN NOT HE WILL BE A FREE AGENT he isn't signing anything long term I was told unless its with the cavs but we were told a lot this summer.

poker face on force their bluff if love really wants to win he will come whats on year that you might not win a ship...to a dynasty with love,dion/bennet,irving,wiggins,lebron. I can see dion having a wade lite impact if It does work with him their if it doesn't don't they can trade him and get something of value back .

Also if they move dion and keep bennet they can keep the style of play with stretch 4s who can do more then shoot. I think bennet has a lot of upside as well.

we have seen the warriors give up basically nothing for iggy.

so with salry dumps teams sprouting up all over the cavs can make something happen no im not a cav fans but being a fan of the nba im interested in seeing a dynasty and the east is so weak atleast they can have powerhouse to field for the deep west in the finals.

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wait a year

Wait a year....keep Wiggins and sign Love as an UFA

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I would love to see what Flip would be offered in a sign

and trade next year. Nothing at all, we got two in the 20's first round picks for Lebron. With Haywoods contract we can get him for the Memphis and Miami pick. Screw Minny, don't let Flip turn sh!t to sugar.

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lol

Sign and trade!!!! LOL is that all you got now Cleveland? You are so pathetic!!!!!!!!! Turning Sh!t to Sugar? You would know wouldn't you!!!!! Dion Waiters, Tristan Thompson, and Anthony Bennett are all future All-Stars I'm sure.

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