Lebron finishes 2nd in DPOY voting.........
And he's UPSET....and he has EVERY RIGHT TO BE...he should have been DPOY!!!!
Duncan finished sixth....?
I actually thought Timmy had a chance to win it. He was really good this year. Lebron and Serge were probably the better two though..
I didnt see the Marc Gasol thing coming at all. But it was a media vote, and of course the media loves Marc Gasol.
He's good, but he's not the DPOY.
I really think that vote should go to the coaches for a change. Defense is not as easy as judging as offense.
Coaches (and players) have a much better insight of who disrupts their offense and who they have to make plays to avoid than the media.
I thought with Noahs injuries he was a lock to win it.
The media loves Marc Gasol?
When is he discussed, like ever?
Gasol won because he deserved it. LeBron finishing 2nd is neither shocking nor deserved. People like SAS are saying that LeBron was robbed? C'mon now. It wasn't his to lose. He has quickly gone from underrated to overrated as a defender.
Here's a statistical comparison b/t LeBron and Marc Gasol
Defensive Adjusted Plus Minus (dRAPM)- 1.4
Defensive Individual Player Value- 1.8
Defensive Win Shares- 4.7
Overall Points Per Possession against- .86
Net Defensive Rating (on/off court)- 3.6
Team Defense Ranking- 9th
Defensive Adjusted Plus Minus (dRAPM)- 3.9
Defensive Individual Player Value- 2.9
Defensive Win Shares- 5.4
Overall Points Per Possession against- .77
Net Defensive Rating- (on/ off court)- 6.5
Team Defense Ranking- 2nd
In my opinion the media loves Marc. He's not talked about a lot, you are right. But from what I see, when he is talked about they over do it. He does a lot of good things but he's not as good as people make him out to be defensively. I love his offense, but that's it. I think advanced metrics are overrated. And if they used advanced metrics to vote on their winner, then that's the only way he could have gotten DPOY. He's a good player, but he's not that special on defense to me. Not special enough to win DPOY
I thought Lebron, Ibaka, or Timmy wouldve won.
I feel as if Lebron earned it this season. His versatility on defense alone is unmatched in the NBA.
Is Marc your 1st Team All Defensive Team Center?
One last thing, I highly doubt that NBA Coaches and Players would vote Marc Gasol as the DPOY.
I cant argue with the stats, I'm just looking at it from my view.
I don't hear much chatter about Marc Gasol, good or bad. He's not a superstar. He's not flashy. He doesn't put up gaudy traditional stats. He's not on a marketable team. Taking all that into consideration, I think that the recognition for this reward is great because it took some digging beyond the norm and it wasn't just based on reputation.
A guy like Ibaka plays for a sexier team and gets those eye popping shot block number, but in actuality he's not that good defensively, especially in terms of post up defense and staying disciplined in his rotations.
TD is good defensively, but he wasn't as good as Gasol this yr. I don't know how you could say that Gasol isn't anything special defensively. He does everything you want from a big man defender and does it very well. At his position, he's elite at defending in iso situations (.65 PPP against), post up defense ( .66 PPPa), and defending the PnR (.80 PPPa). Compare those numbers to TD's (.73, .76, 1.12 respectively) and Gasol was better in every single big man category.
I already discussed LeBron. Talk about an overrated defensive player. Versatility doesn't matter if you guard some of those positions at an average to slightly above (or even below) average level. For example, LeBron has spent more minutes defending the 4 than any other position this yr, yet he has a PER against vs PFs of 17.2, which is completely average to slightly below average.
And who cares if the coaches or players wouldn't vote Gasol in? This is the same group of coaches who have voted in Kobe as 1st team all defense when he hasn't been a good defender for YEARS.
You can try to dismiss advanced metrics all you want, but what they do is show the true impact of a player beyond the box score. Take dRAPM for example, which stat heads look to use as THE definitive defensive stat. The top 10 is a who's who of the elite defenders in the league. If you were to ask me who the top defenders in the league were, my list would probably contain the same exact names on these lists.
Here is the top 10 just in terms of rates, without minutes considerations.
1. Taj Gibson
2. Tony Allen
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Thabo Sefolosha
5. Marc Gasol
6. Paul George
7. Tim Duncan
8. Andre Iguodala
9. Avery Bradley
10. Gerald Wallace
Here is a top 10 WITH minutes considerations
1. Paul George
2. Marc Gasol
3. Andre Iguodala
4. Tony Allen
5. Thabo Sefolosha
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Dwight Howard
8. Luol Deng
9. Tim Duncan
10. Taj Gibson
Maybe it's just me but i'm tired of Lebron's outlandish comments and him being overrated on defense.
Like the statement about the guarding 1-5's and he mentioned NBA history. That was dumb to me.
1. He doesn't guard real NBA centers, he guarded like J.J Hickson one game and like Larry Sanders another. He's not guarding one of the Gasol's or Dwight for full games.
2. I don't think he's the best perimeter defender in the league, he's good but I'd still take Tony Allen, Andre Igoudala, a healthy Dwyane Wade, or a healthy Andrie Kirilenko before him. People forget how amazing D-Wade was before he started getting injured every year and losing athleticism.
3. His defense is made better by team defense. Andre Igoudala is surrounded by almost nothing on defense. Lebron doesn't even fully use defensive principles yet, just athleticism..
4. He isn't defensively on the level of Pippen, Jordan, Michael Cooper, Mo Cheeks, Dennis Rodman yet, so he doesn't need to make any statements about defense and history any time soon..
5. He had one good series against D. Rose and people went overboard, well the same thing he did to D.Rose, Iman Shumpert did to Derrick Rose and Dwyane Wade as a rookie. Him and Battier double teamed Carmelo last year,yet Lebron gets all of the credit.
People are going to say i'm crazy but i'm just saying how I feel..
dude shumpert did not shut down rose like the way james did...anyone who can shut down drose in his mvp season gets my respect for being one of the best defenders in the league, and you're talking about it happening for an entire series. also what makes lebron greater than allen and those other guys is that hes a lot more versatile...no one is saying he can shut down howard but his versatility will give him the edge over guys who can only guard the wing.
also any can guard d wade, are you kidding me especially the d wade last year (which is what im referring to). and wade was never a great lateral defender, yes he had the nice defensive stats...but thats all timing he had very good timing on shots but he doesnt move well on ball.
Actually Lebron only guarded Rose in 4th quarters not for entire series..
And you have to be new to basketball if you're saying Wade was never a great lateral defender.. crazy
1no he doesnt guard them all game. Why would a coach do that? The thing is he can when called apon. He bodys up on bigs and is willing.
2 You were right about Lebron not being the best perimter defender. You said iggy and Tony Allen, then if you would have said Thabo and Avery Bradley you would have had a good list.
3 Where you really went wrong was saying Lebron doesnt use defensive principles. Funny how coach K was raving about his defensive IQ and how he was always talking and getting guys where they meed to be during the olympics. Huh
4 Hes working his way there.
5 Lebron only guarded Rose when he needed to in crucial moments. And when Lebron was guarding him he shot 1/15 (6.3%)
You claim Shumpert did this to Dwayne Wade as rookie (last year) well in games against NYK Wades games were as follows:
In the one game they played in the series last year befor shump got injured, Wade:
So no.. not the same.
Now for the Shane/Lebron vs Carmelo statement.
When guarded by Battier in last years playoffs (4 games):
When guarded by lebron:
The thing that makes lebron so unique on defense is he is willing and able to body up on bigs and take the task of taking the ball handler when called apon. Hes a hell of a defender and you give off the vibe you either don't like him or don't watch him
I don't think it matters all that much. Not in the case that he shoudn't have gotten or it would have been great to see him get it but when it is all said him getting one DPOY isn't going to change anyone's mind about his defense. We all know how amazing of a defender he is, for crying out loud the man can guard point guards through to centers. He blocks, he steals, he rebounds and he is able to do it with fouling at a low rate. When it is all said and done we all remember him as the guy who does it all on the defensive end, literally, so him not winning it won't change anyone's view of him when it is all said and done.
DPOY awards aren't what is going to cement Lebron's legacy. Winning and not whining is what will matter in the end. I am simply tired of hearing him complain when he doesn't win an award or someone doesn't kiss his ass. He still cares too much about what people think.
Man you're in my head, that's what I'm saying. His personality just comes off as so fake to me..
Lebron is a product of the high end prep basketball culture. He deserves most everything he gets but he still leaves me wondering if he could do a little more with what he has been blessed with. Nobody has ever really kicked his ass and challenged him until the last couple of years. Whether it be a coach or a peer in the league. He is easily one of the 2-3 most naturally gifted basketball players ever and needs to take full advantage of it.
The voting for this was really questionable. Ibaka 3rd? He really isn't that great of a one-on-one or team defender. Just a shot blocker.
I agree with you also, Dwight and the Lakers were bad on defense this year, but Dwight still led the league in rebounds and was top 10 in blocks, are there really 13 defenders better than him? I think not.
Paul George finishing 8th &$#%#&@! me off. Dude was 1st in the league in defensive win shares on the second best defensive team in the league. Plus he holds the opposing team best wing player every game throughout the game not just the fourth quarter
I think Lebron is a great defender (top 7 perimeter guy, top 10 guy overall) but I had him around 5th on my list. Again, great defender but no the DPOY (fwiw, Gasol wasn't the DPOY either; think Tony Allen takes that title).
Tony Allen needs to win one of these days, he's my favorite player to watch lock down other guards. He did a hell of a job on Durant in the 2011 playoffs as well.
I suggested Gasol for DPOY in the awards thread and got negged like crazy. Meanwhile, most of the posters on here go crazy for one dimensional chuckers like Monta Ellis. Maybe the mainstream media has a soft spot for Marc Gasol, but too many posters on this site prefer NBA2K to actual NBA basketball.
One of the comments from Lebron struck me as ignorant: "I don't know if it's one player in NBA history that's guarded 1 (point guards) through 5 (centers)."
Well, I can think of one guy who certainly did that, on the biggest stage, and won a title, as a ROOKIE. A guy by the name of Magic Johnson in Game 6 of the Finals in his rookie year. He played all 5 positions over the course of the game, meaning he guarded all 5 positions over the course of the game.
Also, the thing that really irks me about this "Lebron can guard 5 positions" thing is the fact that Lebron has never guarded a true C, because they are so rare in the NBA these days. When has Lebron guarded a C like Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing or hell, even Dwight or Bynum?
Any of those guys would eat Lebron alive if he tried to guard them, they are real 5s, not the soft, no low-post big men we have today.
Lebron might be able to guard 5 positions in today's NBA, but he sure as hell wouldn't be able to in a historical context, so it really annoys me when people talk about him doing something never done in history when it's only relevant to the current context.
Just when you think LeBron is done with saying dumb egotistical things about himself.
So LeBron says he doesn't want to be 2nd place on Defensive Player of the Year and he's seen as egotistical.
Kevin Durant is on the cover of S.I. saying he doesn't want to be 2nd place and he's seen as the good guy.
Can someone please explain this to me?
Both Lebron and Durant are saying they don't want to be second place in various things, sure.
Durant says he doesn't want to be second any longer, he said he's not going to settle and he's done with being second. He's talking about his past, but when he talks about wanting to be first he's talking about something that hasn't happened yet, he's talking about wanting to beat Lebron in the FUTURE.
Lebron, on the other hand, is complaining about being second AFTER he already lost, and saying that he should have won.
Durant's comments were about his determination to get #1.
Lebron's comments were about his disbelief he didn't get #1.
I'm not sure how people are failing to see the difference between a competitive streak and sour grapes.
These comments are fine:
"It sucks," James said Thursday as he prepared for Game 3 of the Miami Heat's first-round playoff series against Milwaukee. "It definitely sucks, though, finishing second. Who wants to finish second?"
But these are not:
"I guard everybody on the floor," James said while sitting at his locker in Milwaukee. "I don't know if it's one player in NBA history that's guarded 1 (point guards) through 5 (centers). It's over with now, but it's cool."
The former is an expression of frustration and disappointment which is fine, the latter is disrespectful to the actual winner and demonstrates how special he thinks he is - in complete ignorance of guys who've done similar things over the years, like Rodman, Pippen etc.
Consider it explained.
Honestly, this sounds a lot more like salty Boston/Indiana fans that are looking for anything to diss LeBron with.
He wasnt lying. Few players in the history of the league can guard 1-5 and even fewer can guard them effectively. Durant saying he should have been #1 in the draft doesn't sound like sour grapes? Since you said "disbelieve he didnt get #1"
Plus, defense is something FEW superstars play. Are you guys really knocking him because he's the 2nd best defender in the league while being the best player in the world?
Boston and Indiana fans will never give him the credit he truly deserves.
Who said he was lying?
You can tell the truth and be ignorant or egotistical, just as you can lie and be humble.
Lebron didn't say that he was one of a few, he said he didn't know if there was anyone else out there who could do what he did.
As someone who professes to be such a lover of the game, with an appreciation of the history of the game, Lebron would know full well that Pippen, Rodman and others have done similar things defensively, but his comments indicate he thinks he's the best one to ever do it.
Also, as far as Durant is concerned, where did Durant say he should have been #1?
“I’ve been second my whole life,” Durant tells SI‘s Lee Jenkins in a profile that will hit news stands on Thursday. “I was the second-best player in high school. I was the second pick in the draft. I’ve been second in the MVP voting three times. I came in second in the Finals. I’m tired of being second. I’m not going to settle for that. I’m done with it.”
He doesn't say "I was considered the second best player in high school" - he said he WAS the 2nd best player in high school. He isn't denying that he was second in the past, he's just saying he's not going to settle for it any longer.
Durant is using his past to demonstrate his motivation, Lebron is pouting.
It's not the content, it's how it's being presented.
Also, I beg to differ that defense is something "FEW superstars play", every player worthy of the mantle of superstar has given effort defensively. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, KG, Kobe etc., all hustled on both ends.
If you said something few "stars" played, then yes, I would agree, but no superstar only plays just one end of the court and earns that label. Name me one genuine superstar who didn't play D, and I'll name you a player who shouldn't be considered a superstar.
Kevin Durant (last season)
Kobe Bryant now
None of them play defense and they're superstars.
Honestly, it's pointless to debate with a LeBron-hater because of the fact that nothing I say will change your mind or outlook on him. Especially a Boston fan.
LeBron is hands down the most versatile defender since Pippen/Rodman and the best perimeter defender since Artest in his prime and that's all there is to it.
And so what if he's not humble? Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Payton and Magic were the biggest trash talkers the game has ever seen and they didnt get as much hate as LeBron.
Seriously answer this, why should he be humble? Where does it say anywhere a person should be humble? He knows he's the best, I know he's the best, you know he's the best, Cleveland, Boston, OKC, and Miami know he's the best so why should anybody act as if he isn't? Jordan and Kobe are the exact same way.
LeBron will be hated on until there's somebody else out there worthy to be hated on. Honestly, I've never seen so many Kobe fans before the LeBron hate. I had never seen so many Jordan fans until Kobe got all of his hate 10 years ago. It's a vicious cycle that human beings, for whatever reason, follow. There are no guidelines, there are no rule books, there is nothing out there that says you can't act like the best if you've constantly proven it
"Rodman, Pippen etc."... the list is done there man.
What was egotistical about his statements. You go ahead and name a few players that have done as good of a job guarding 1-5 as lebron.
1. Scottie Pippen
(I don't count Rodman because I'm not convinced he was human haha)
He played with Kareem and James worthy, so Its not like he was called on on defense like Lebron is to defend post players. I would have used Pippen as an example.
Heat are pretty weak up front so he does have to spend time defending post players and does an adequate job on the bigs in todays game.
And hell no he couldnt defend shaq or those guys. Shaq, Ewing and Robinson were eaten up by Hakeem. Lebron wouldnt do anybetter.
But the point is he might be one of the few guys that could put a body on these bigs aswell as take on a the best ballhandlers when called apon. Even in "historical context" he'd be able to guard 1-4 imo. The game has changed so much and its impossible to say what a player could or couldnt do. Hes really versatile and there no denying that.
I feel like a lebron nut hugger right now. But I just want to point out he is one of the most versatile defensive players ever. His physical attributes allow him to do this. He has the body to go up against bigs. The speed to check guards and is a really good team defender. Also I think lebron could guard shaq pretty well. *flop* lol
"I guard everybody on the floor," James said while sitting at his locker in Milwaukee. "I don't know if it's one player in NBA history that's guarded 1 (point guards) through 5 (centers). It's over with now, but it's cool."
That's really egotistical, I actually can't believe that anyone (Lebron or not) would say that!!
On the other hand, I do love the fact that a superstar like wants to be seen as the best defender. How many stars in this league don't give a damn about D??
Maybe this will be motivate him to raise his defensive game even higher for the rest of the playoffs.
"On the other hand, I do love the fact that a superstar like wants to be seen as the best defender. How many stars in this league don't give a damn about D??"
How many times have we heard Kobe, Durant, or Rose say they want to be the best defender in the league? And guys saying he should check the best player on the opposing team at all times. There is nobody in the league with a bigger offensive burden than LeBron James and now you also want him to have the biggest defensive burden?
"Oh, he's averaging near a triple double but he only guarded Durant 24 or his 44 minutes. Not good enough." Give this man some credit.
Nobody in the league with a bigger offensive burden? Really? Is he playing for Cleveland again?
That argument doesn't hold water any more, he's got two other All-Stars in Bosh and Wade, plus a number of very effective role players around him. Miami is FAR from a one-man team, so if Lebron has a bigger offensive burden, it's because he chooses to, not because he has to.
I didn't say that he should have the biggest defensive burden in the NBA, but I said the DPOY should have the biggest defensive burden, because it's the award for the MOST VALUABLE DEFENSIVE PLAYER, so if he wants to win it, then yes, he should guard the best player on the opposing team while he's on the court.
Nothing is given, everything is earned. Just because Lebron could be the best defensive player in the NBA, doesn't mean that he is applying that ability often enough to beat out people who DO have the biggest defensive burden and have earned the award.
Lebron gets plenty of credit from plenty of people, but the fact of the matter is he didn't deserve the DPOY award this season, and the only reason people are saying "he only guarded Durant 24 or his 44 minutes. Not good enough" is because in this specific context, it isn't good enough.
Lebron could win the DPOY award if he REALLY wanted to, but he would have to make that his focus in order to do so, rather than just guard the best players in the 4th quarter and then complain that he didn't win.
IF he wants to be compared to Jordan and the all-time greats, then he should damn well earn that comparison.
The year Jordan won DPOY (1988) he had a bigger offensive burden than Lebron has had this year, and not only did he average 35ppg on 53.5% shooting, along with 5.5rpg and 5.9rpg, he averaged a ridiculous 3.2spg, and 1.6bpg while guarding the best player every night, for 40mpg in ALL 82 games.
Lebron averaged 1.7spg and 0.9bpg this year - those aren't the numbers of a wing player who should win DPOY for the 9th ranked D in the NBA, especially one who didn't lock-down the opposition's best player for the majority of the game.
Jordan and Hakeem are the only players to date to win MVP and DPOY in the same season, and look at what MJ had to do to to win it, and only 4 players ever have won both awards.
This is the problem with Lebron James fans, they can't accept criticism of any aspect of his game without bringing in the rest of it to back it up.
Yes, Lebron is having a great season and shouldn't be criticised for not having a bigger defensive impact.
Unless Lebron seriously thinks he should have won the award, in which case, it's entirely fair to criticise him.
If he wants to say all he cares about is titles, and use the regular season to coast and play it safe to prepare that's fine, but he can't then complain that people don't give him awards just because he COULD have won them if he was going 100%.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Lebron might be versatile and all that, but for a wing player to get DPOY award, at the very least he needs to check the best perimeter guy on the other team every game.
It's not enough for Lebron to guard them in the 4th quarter and let Battier guard guys like Durant for most of the game so he can stay out of foul trouble.
DPOYs are not only the best defenders, but they carry the biggest load defensively. While Lebron is a better defender, an argument could be made that Battier does more work defensively because he is usually the one checking the best scorer on the opposite team.
If Lebron is frustrated with not getting DPOY, then he should tell his coach he wants the best scorer all game, every game, that's the only way he'll be able to win it.
It's not like Gasol only anchors the D in the 4th quarter, he's doing it every possession, that's the difference between a DPOY and Lebron right now.
@Benchwarmer; I was talking about that specific game when Kareem was out and Worthy had yet to arrive. Magic not only played all 5 positions, but scored 42 points and a bunch of assists and rebounds.
I'm not saying he should have won it. But his defensive versatility puts him deservedly in conversation.
Its one thing to be asked to guard the best scorer, Its another to be asked to guard the best scorer or the ball handler or a post player all in one game. Thats arguably as big a load as defending the best player.
but i didn't see him being second sorry to say it he is a great defender but this year i only had 4 on my list Noah, Marc Gasol, George and Duncan
i was expecting to see Noah win it
Lebron can guard 1-5? Please cut it out with the Lebron jock riding. He can not guard Marc Gasol, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Roy Hibbert, LaMarcus Aldridge, Zach Randolph, etc...true 4's n 5's, at all. Guarding undersized pf and centers does not mean you can guard a center or pf. JJ Hickson n Kenneth Faried sized players don't count as he is bigger than they are. He guarded D Rose with a lot of help because no one else on the floor from Chicago was an offensive threat n the help d loaded up waiting on a drive. Defense is more than blocks and steals. Gasol plays great individual and team defense. Things that don't show up on stat sheets. He anchored the best d in the league along with TA! Ibaka is a great weak side shot blocker but not a one on one defender. Some of you guys are dilusional.
I wanted timmy to win.
I wanted timmy to win.
What I posted had nothing to do with me being a Pacers fan. What he said was flat out egotistical, BUT what's new with LeBron James? That's just who he is:
“A person like myself always needs a great sidekick." - Regarding the mother of his child, Savannah
“If I didn't believe in this team and this organization and the direction that we're headed, I wouldn't have signed the extension.”
"I don’t want to go "Ring - Chasing" as I call it, you know. Going to a team that’s already pretty established and trying to win a ring with them. I want to stay with the Cavs and build a champion."
"I’ve been a Cav for seven years now, and I’ve never given any indication I was leaving." - On staying with the Cavaliers
“I’m only one guy.” “I took Hedo in the first game and Rashard made the shot. I took Rashard in the second game and Hedo made the shot.
“If I could clone myself, we’d be all right. But I can’t.” - LeBron, wishing he could replace his teammates with clones of himself
"A LeBron James team is never desperate." - After game 5 of the 2008 Eastern Conference Semifinals
“The last day I wanted it to be about me.” - Why he didn't inform the Cavs of his decision to sign with the Heat
"One day we might have another LeBron. Maybe." - On making a donation to the Boys and Girls Club
"So until you understand who LeBron James is, LeBron James is in a win-win situation, and will continue to be in a win-win situation." - On his life
"But I mean, even my family gets spoiled at times watching me doing things that I do, on and off the court." - On his family
"Absolutely not. Because at the end of the day, all the people that was rooting on me to fail, they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today. They have the same personal problems they had today.
"I'm going to continue to live the way I want to live and continue to do the things that I want to do with me and my family and be happy with that. They have to get back to the real world at some point." - When asked if it bothered him to have people root against him
Like I said... LeBron has a history of saying dumb egotistical self centered things. I mean, who refers to themselves in the third person lmao???
That's just who he is though. You either like it or you don't. Me... I choose not to lol.
Lebron does say stupid stuff. Lol but if you do this for Kobe and MJ you'd find they are equally if not more egotistical.
And the quotes about him and the Cavs are a lot more proffesional than Dwill, Dwight and Carmelo throwing his team under the bus man.
I love to see Lebron playing i think he is an amazing player i started to enjoy MORE seeing him play last year and this year because we saw a better and more mature player but in reality i don't see Lebron playing 5 positions and defending 5 positions that's all he can play for 4 and defend 4 positions and on the PF that would be an undersized one, i'm not talking about power because he is strong... but size wise he couldn't defend that well that's all
Lebron is a great player defensively. Some may say he's a competitive man for saying such things, however last time I checked good sports congratulate the winner...