that what rick kamla thinks #imjustsaying
since you are just saying then I would say yes, but if you were not just saying I would say no
rick kamla is also a die hard wolves fan and he is one of those commentators who is always saying overly positive things and making everyone sound all good. Its his role in the world of basketball television. Hes not supposed to be like steven a smith and dig up dirt and put guys on blast. He is like an NBA hype man. I do like him, but if anyone is gonna overuse a term like superstar when its not appropriate, its him. SO no love is not. But he is still young and growing as a player so he can become a guy who makes all-star teams and without all the negative backlash. He needs to win though and that might take awhile in minny.
In terms of popularity and stats, yeah, I think it's legit. But one of the top players in the league? Hell no. Don't get me wrong, I love Love's game- very old school. To me, Kevin Love is like Pau Gasol was back on the Grizzlies. He'd be a class-A second option on a very good team. Unless he gets some desperately needed help, he's gonna be stuck putting up huge numbers on a terrible team, and I say this as a die-hard Wolves fan.
To be a superstar, don't you have to be an all star too? I believe Kevin Love got in only because of another player's injury.
Okay, I guess the negatives mean I was wrong. No problem, but still don't think he's a star. Damn good player though.
He's a david lee knicks era on acid(statistical standpoint), i saw quarters where he doesn't have a single play or system designed for him, who's the superstar who doesn't get the ball except on putbacks and tips ?.
He does what he does, because he lose, his team lose because he does what he does....
Best rebounder in the world, phenomenal shooting big, fantastic outlet passes, but LMA deserved the all star nod.
"He's a david lee knicks era on acid(statistical standpoint)"
WTF are you talking about. David Lee on acid from a statistical standpoint. What does that even mean? Do you mean David Lee on steroids? Thats a saying I've heard b4, but to say David Lee on acid...what the hell does that possibly mean.
Rick Kamla also said Al jefferson was a sure-bet Hall of Famer at one point.
I don't think you can be one before your team is anywhere near playing .500 ball, even though I love Kevin Love. Last year was his breakout year, he'll need to establish that he wasn't a one-hit wonder before he can be called a superstar.
He is a perfect fit in Rick Adelman's offense.
He's not a superstar, but watch Minnesota pay him like one unfortunately.
well boozer and gay both got 80 mill for 5 years last season. Bosh got 110 mill for 6 years. Love is right in the discussion with those 3 players so about 80 mill or so for 5 seasons would make sense
Bosh carried Toronto to the playoffs as it's first option and, based on his resume, was worth a max deal. Before last season with the Heat, most people considered him a top five power forward. Love isn't in the discussion with Bosh in my opinion. He's a better rebounder and that's about it.
When the Bulls signed Boozer, most people saw it as a great deal considering what Bosh and Stoudemire received. However, Boozer got injured and then didn't play well in the playoffs. Now, it looks like a terrible signing. Boozer has been an elite power forward for years though... A legit second option. Love will be paid like Bosh and Stoudemire, which will be a BIG mistake.
I wasn't a fan of Memphis paying Gay the max, however I do think he's more equipped to carry a team than Love is. Love isn't a top option at all and the T-Wolves will regret it if they give him superstar power forward money.
You have your superstars. Your elite. And the very good. I have Love in between very good and elite at this point.
i dont consider any of those other 3 elite either. And i honestly think if miami could push a button right now that would trade love for bosh they would do it. Love might not be a go to scorer, but he does all kinds of little high iq things that help a team. I know you are one of the lowest people on this site about love indianabasketball, but to say he isnt in the discussion with bosh is hard to see. And not only is he better rebounder, but hes a better shooter and passer as well. He can space the floor better and unlike most bigs when they get the ball out at the three point line, you dont have to run and get it from love, you can run your offense and trust love with tthe ball outside where he will make smart decisions and hit the open man and keep the defenders honest by knocking down shots if teams leave him.
I've never bought into Bosh being a superstar or franchise player, but you don't think he's an elite player at his position? That's crazy... We're talking about a player who had big seasons and carried Toronto to back to back playoff appearances. And even though Toronto didn't make the playoffs his last two seasons there, he had huge seasons and they were just on the outside looking in (in competition for the 8th spot). He's no doubt an elite player at his position. No doubt.
I don't consider Gay an elite player. I think he's a very good player, but not elite. Memphis overpaid in my opinion.
Boozer was an elite power forward before this season. Like I said... His deal was considered a bargain compared to what Bosh and Stoudemire received. The opinions on him have now changed with just cause.
I do agree with you though... Love would probably be a better fit in Miami, BUT simply because he has a role player style of game. Bosh isn't a role player. Love will rebound and space the floor all of the way out to the three-point line for LeBron and Wade to drive. He also wouldn't come with the same ego as Bosh, who's used to carrying a team as it's top option. Just because Love would probably be the better fit (he can't defend though... he has slow feet and no length... so that'd be a question), doesn't mean he's the better player though. You actually kind of proved my point by making that statement because I think Love is the 3rd or 4th option on a championship caliber team. A player like that shouldn't get superstar money.
Love is a better shooter, but he doesn't finish well around the rim. Love's FG% is just OK. Bosh shoots just as well from the mid-range, plus he finishes better. Bosh shoots damn near 50% for his career. I'd give Love the edge as a passer, but Bosh is a very good passer as well. You can be a low seed to borderline playoff team running your entire offense through Bosh. You can't say that about Love...
well we obviously just have agree to disagree, but no way would i call bosh an elite player in the nba. I honestly have never thought of him as a top 5 pf. I dont care if he did make the playoffs, the east was pretty weak and they didnt do anything when they were there and the fact he couldnt do it with any sort of regularity shows he couldnt be classified or relied on as a guy who would carry teams to success. Love is still young and this past season was the first year at 22 years of age where anyone was calling him an all-star so its too early to write him off for not being able to win games. If im trying to win games next season, its close between love and bosh. Im not even saying love is neccessarily better nor did i say he deserved more money. But to say they are not even in the same discussion as players is way overboard
An NBA superstar cannot be tagged as such if his team can only win 1 out of 4 games for three years in a row. Bad teams have guys who get stats, and always have, it doesn't make them stars.
I always thought that argument was flawed because they play the same competition as everyone else.
Love isn't a super-star,but to say he's not as good as Bosh because he hasn't been a winner is absurd. Sometimes it takes more than just a good player to win, team make-up has a lot to do with it. A team as young as Minny has a lot of learning to do. Those teams Bosh took to the playoffs had a lot of veteran presences around along with good talent. TJ Ford was a 15 and 8 pg along with Calderon bringing 10-8 off the bench. garbajosa was a good defender along with Moon and Parker. You really think Bosh could do any better with the team Love plays with? My bet is, without Love, Minny barely wins 10 games this past year. I agree his numbers are SOMEWHAT inflated, and he is better suited as a 3rd option, but the same should be said for Bosh. I know my team isn't winning anything with him as a 1st or 2nd option either. At least Love is going to bring me some toughness along the way.
I'd like to see you two give me your top ten power forwards...
just outside looking in: KG, Josh Smith,David West
Care to give me yours?
I'll make my list when I get a chance, so I can put some decent thought into it.
But your list is wild lol. Duncan still in the top five? Z-Bo destroyed him... Boozer better than Bosh? Aldridge is really no different a player than Bosh (Bosh has been better thus far in his career), yet you have Aldridge ranked 3rd and Bosh ranked 10th (10a I may add)? That's nuts...
Did you perhaps see Chris Bosh play against Carlos Boozer in the play-offs? Bosh averaged 23.2 ppg on over 60% shooting from the field, Boozer put up 14.4 on less than 40%. Have to say, you can dislike Chris Bosh all you want, but that dude is better than Carlos Boozer. I definitely think that Chris Bosh could do more with the Timberwolves than Kevin Love. He shoots better from the field by quite a bit (hoovers around 50% compared to Love's 47%, which matters), and he does indeed provide more of a force on defense. For those who look at Love's eye popping rebound numbers and cry otherwise, well, look at what some of those other players you listed above are doing now that they do not have Chris Bosh on their team. The answer is, nothing much.
I do not understand all of the flack Chris Bosh takes. Guess is it is more part of his slight frame and his slow start to the season. Yes, he is definitely the third banana in Miami, not to mention people have beef with him for leaving and forming a "super team". I still do not know how that makes Kevin Love, Carlos Boozer and possibly other people higher up on your list any better than him.
Know how many third options averaged more points per game than Chris Bosh? I will go with zero. If Kevin Love and Chris Bosh switched places, think of how this might change Kevin Love's stat line. People say that he would be even better than Bosh, and he might help in a few categories, but I am not so sure. The thing with Kevin, is that when he has played against guys like Chris Bosh and LaMarcus Aldridge, he usually gets killed. I am a huge fan of Kevin's, but to get up in arms about Chris Bosh being a better player than him makes little sense to me. Chris Bosh has at the very least been the main piece on bad teams that have been better than Kevin's bad teams. He did not get the best of Dirk Nowitzki in the post-season, but nobody did. Chris Bosh may not be a superstar, but he is an All-Star, and I believe a better one than Kevin Love. Not to mention, he completely outclassed Carlos Boozer, which to me has to mean something when ranking the two.
That 30 Rebound performance opened alot of people eyes and put Love on the basketball map..He deserves alot of credit for working to become a great rebounder despite not being very athletic..
Kevin Love is a Top 24 player,has a media friendly personality and he's marketable...And as much as alot of people will Hate it....If he continues what he started last season for the next 7 years,he's a future Hall of Famer..
Only the center position,small forward and maybe shooting guard, have only 1 guy that everyone agrees is the best at that spot...But in a year or 2 Blake Griffin will be the best power forward...
If I had to Rank the top 10 Power Fowards My List would be like this
I know you've probably already posted it in the past, but what's your top ten power forward list?
Love reminds me alot of Danny Fortson, instead of actually playing defense out to the 3pt line like some PF (Garnett, K-Mart) he simply parks his fat a$$ in the lane and gobbles every rebound that comes his way. He's a good player but not a superstar.
Kevin Love is basically Jamison without the flip shot. But coming off the bench for a championship team as a sixth man he might be useful. Love is not a starter on a championship team.
kevin love is a very very good player
wont ever be
but a legit second option on a championship team as he gets older
Hey Wizard, could you actually watch a game and stop posting a thought you read from JNixon(which I still don't think he believes that whole-heartedly). It's ok to make an analysis of your own. Anyone who puts up 20-15 and 40% from 3 is no 6th man. The Jamison comparison is laughable.
@Indiana, LA was actually set at 5 for me with Z-Bo rounding out the top 3, my mistake. But IMO, he's still a better player than Bosh. At least this year. He began playing with his b2b more instead of relying on his jumper(something Bosh has never been able to do.) BTW, don't be so sure about Bosh doing any better with Minny seeing as though he missed playoffs in a weak EC the past 2 years even though he had just as good talent around him. You're seriously going to count Love's first year as star with a bunch of rookies and second year guys? That's seriously ignorant and showing your dislike towards the man.
Love really gets folks worked up. I think he could be over rated by some, but for people who say he isn't a legit starter, are you crazy? Wizard did you say he isn't a starter on a championship team?!? Are you saying that no one can win with Love? So are you saying the Heat couldn't win with Love starting instead of Bosh? Maybe he will never be good enough to be your number 1 or 2 guy on a championship team, but he could certainly be a starter. And keep in mind that the KID is only 23 years old. If he develops like most big men he isn't even in his prime. Heck, he is probably four years away from his prime.
Also while Love got more attention last year, he really didn't do that much different from what he was doing the prior two years. His per 36 minute stats for rebounds are 12.9, 13.3, and 15.3. They are going up, but he was an elite rebounder from day one. His scoring was 15.8, 17.7, and 20.4. So he scored as well from the moment he entered the league. It is just Minnesota refused to play him normal minutes for some sort of developmental reasons which were never really clear (maybe to keep building his confidence or to keep him working hard in practice).
Seriously, he is on everyone's list of top ten power forwards in the game. Considering how marketable NBA players are it seems like in some respects that makes Love a "superstar" even if there might be 30 guys in the league who are better than him, including 7 or 8 who play his position.
I don't dislike Love at all... I actually love him as a rebounder and pick and pop four man. I think he has a high IQ at the offensive end. He's a high character guy and is very likeable. I mean, I like him as a person.
I just don't think he's that kind of player you can run an entire offense through and win games at a good level. IF you look at his FG% so far during his career, you'd see that he doesn't finish well around the rim. He doesn't really have a legit low post game at all. A lot of the rebounds he gets are after his own misses.
I also don't like him as a defender. He has slow feet, no length and has shown no interest in playing defense since he was drafted. I think that's what was keeping him off of the floor early in his career.
He needs to start giving more effort on defense (he'll always be limited at that end in my opinion though), but I do think he's a starter. He's a piece to the puzzle, not THE piece though. He's not a superstar caliber player and shouldn't be paid like one.
1. Dirk Nowitzki
2. Pau Gasol
3. Amare Stoudemire
4. Zach Randolph
5. Chris Bosh
6. LaMarcus Aldridge
7. Blake Griffin
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kevin Love
10. Carlos Boozer
Next 5: Kevin Garnett, Josh Smith, Paul Millsap, Luis Scola, David West
Dirk is definitely the best. Think that goes without saying after his dominant play-off performance against everyone he played. Gasol obviously was outclassed by Dirk, but he has proven his worth as a second banana on championship teams. His awful play-offs may have discouraged some from ranking him this high, but I have a feeling he bounces back. Amare is the most explosive offensive PF behind Dirk, his rebounding and defense put him below Gasol in my mind, not to mention his constant concerns with injury.
The players from 4-6 are incredibly close, but I favor Zach due to his performance in the play-offs. He is a better low post offensive player than both, and kills the glass on both ends. I probably prefer either Bosh or Aldridge personally, due to their length and athleticism, but Zach is in a situation where he is a leader and had great success. I feel like LA had the best regular season, and he was not bad in the play-offs, but he needs to maintain his dominance as "The Man" in Portland. He and Bosh train together and are quite similar, though I still think Bosh gets the better of him. If next season happens, LA could definitely move up the rankings with a full season of playing closer to the basket than when Roy was the main option.
Blake Griffin, to me, is behind these players currently. His rookie season was incredible and should likely lead to him surpassing many, if not all, in the 4-6 range. I actually think that his stats likely dip, but the Clippers are a great deal better come next season. If they start winning, no reason to think he cannot challenge Nowitzki very soon. People might think I dislike Kevin Love, but I have been a huge fan of his for years. I watched him every year in the HS state tourneys and I knew he would be a very solid player. I did not know he would do as well as he has, but am very happy about it. Still, his team has done absolutely nothing with Kevin as the centerpiece, which has to get you thinking. Yes, he is young, but I have seen him get outclassed by everyone ahead of him on this list, and he leaves a lot to be desired as a defender. Nonetheless, he is incredibly intelligent, and I put him ahead of Boozer after his play-off breakdown. Boozer is very injury prone, and I feel his best days are behind him. These are my current rankings, but I have indeed learned that they are constantly changing with new development(s).
1. Nowitzki - I don't think there's any individual defender or defensive scheme that can defend him. He's seen it all and seems to know how to play against anything.
2. Randolph - A complete power forward who can bully or finesse you on either block. Faces you up and can either shoot it or show you the pumpfake and go around you. Making the extra pass now and at least making the committment to being where he's supposed to on defense.
3. Gasol - Drops after two consecutive rounds of disgusting basketball. He's the main reason the Lakers lost in my opinion. Still arguably the most skilled though. His performances just left a bad taste in my mouth.
4. Bosh - He willingly accepted a third option role behind two ball dominant franchise players and still managed to put up Gasol numbers offensively. He's no paint protector, but made improvements as a weakside defender as the season went along. He rarely missed a rotation. Not a dominant low post scorer either, but the talent here is undeniable.
5. Stoudemire - Strong mid-range game and attacks the basket like few do. Hard to stop once he gets it going. Still not a great defender or rebounder, and is an injury waiting to happen.
6. Aldridge - He's on the rise. Finally starting showing a back to the basket game and using his length/athleticism to make a real impact.
7. Griffin - He put up numbers on a bad team, but based on the eye test... He's headed for superstardom. His dunks get most of the attention, but he's actually a very good basketball player. He can make improvements offensively, but I'm mainly worried about his defense. He makes no impact at that end right now, but has the physical tools to be a great man to man defender. He has the potential to catipult himself to the top of the list.
8. Garnett - He's no longer the big ticket, but he's still a top ten power forward in my opinion. He still gets you 15 and 9, plus is an amazing defender both on the ball and as a weakside defender.
9. Duncan - He's old and his body is deteriorating right in front of our eyes, but he's still a top ten power forward when he's on the floor.
10. Love - He's a great rebounder who's tough to keep off of the glass and can shoot it from the outside. I don't think you can run an offense through him and be successful though. Not only does he give poor effort on defense, he also has very poor physical tools on defense.
Carlos Boozer - I had a tough time leaving him out of the top ten, but injuries and being exposed as a poor defender left me no choice. I do believe he's better than what he showed this past season though and will have a bounce back year.
I agreed that You can't run an offense through him and be a real winning team, but i don't really think you can with Bosh either. I do agree with you though that Bosh really surprised people this year with his team D. Finally using his quickness the way he needs to. I think the Heat are going to be pretty scary on D when they insert Chalmers full time in the starting line-up and add a guy like Dalembert to truely anchor the paint.
How was Indiana showing dislike towards Kevin Love? If anything, he was stating that players who are not superstars should not get paid maximum salaries, because it looks like that is where Kevin is heading. If that happens, with their current team, it might be difficult to indeed gain a legit first option player to take them to contention. Think that Indiana was talking business, nothing personal.
I do not at all think that he was being ignorant or showing dislike in stating that players who have yet to prove they can lead a team to wins probably do not deserve maximum money. Chris Bosh may have not lead the Raptors to the play-offs, but they were damn close. While you would not know which one of the two were better unless they actually switched situations, to say that Kevin Love would have done any better than Chris Bosh in Toronto or Miami is definitely not guaranteed. Yes, his team was awful, but regardless of his outstanding rebounding numbers, he still gets regularly outperformed on defense, particularly by taller, quicker players. I would put Chris Bosh in this category.
It is all in one's definition in how one defines "superstar". I made a post about "Franchise Players", when everyone was complaining that there were none in the 2011 Draft. This lead to a debate about the definition of a "superstar", "star", "good player", etc. Well, I think there are currently 10 guys who I would count as "superstars" and they were the 10 I listed as Franchise Players. I think that I would add Blake Griffin and John Wall, on speculation that they would be worth a maximum contract. Now, if guys below that are making maximum salary, than with the current CBA, it is a tough pill to swallow. The odds are, they are technically worth it from a business perspective, but from a winning perspective, they are probably not. I guess you could argue this for Chris Bosh as well, but I do indeed believe Chris Bosh showed a little more than Kevin Love has. I am a huge fan of Kevin and would love to see him in a winning situation. But, I think the best way to achieve this would be for him to play with not only a different primary scorer, but probably a better player. If Kevin were the third option on a team, they more than likely are going to be a great team. Still, should he be paid first option money with all of the uncertainty about Minnesota's future? Definitely debatable.
Here was my "franchise player" article, and I would be up for trying to figure out a definition of superstar, though I do not believe this would be necessarily universal:
Players get paid on either potential alone or on proven merrit. When a guy is 23 and already putting up 20 and 15, he deserves the superstar money. If you're going to argue him making superstar money without real results, then the same should have been said about KG when he was with Minny. He rarely ever gave any type of success but he put a few fans in the seats and allowed them to secure a great player who could be a piece to the puzzle, unfortunately it never worked out. It's either pay him what the market says he is worth(which WILL be max dollars from someone) or allow him to walk for nothing an be left with Derricks Williams as your go to guys. When you are planning an in-house rebuild, it's not as big of a deal what a guy gets extended at because if they are winning and filling seats, they will all get paid. There is a nice little group of players being put together in Minny that will either be good trade bait or develop into a cohesive unti. Don't be surprised if the T-Pups are in the hunt for an 8th seed this year along with GSW after the signing of Rick Adelman. It's actually just the kind of offense that is made for a guy like Love with his stellar passing ability. Personally I think that people are going to be surprised to see a new element of Love's game opened up this year.
BTW, I never heard you guys complaining about Bosh's bloated contract to be a 3rd option spot-up shooter, yet it's ridiculous to pay Kevin Love the same type of money(actually less since it's his first extension).
I just think it shows dislike that he's complaining about a guy like Love who at least put up historical numbers on a losing team getting his payday, but yet it happens every year for guys who put up even less numbers on losers.
Believe me, I think most contracts in the NBA are bloated and ridiculous for teams. But, the Heat had a plan. It has not necessarily worked, at least not yet. But, they planned on signing two of the best players in the game and a very high level PF. They lost this year, but it is looking like it could be a winning plan.
Now, while many would say the Heat would be better off signing two role players rather than Bosh, I am not so sure. Honestly, would it be better to have two players making 9 million per year? Find me those two players, who were available, but it would be a risk. Personally, I think Chris Bosh did a great job in the play-offs for the most part. The only guy that got the better of him was Dirk, who killed everyone. He had one bad game against KG, but otherwise got the better of him. He killed Boozer. He is, without a doubt, the best third option any team has, and a match-up problem.
Look at the Timberwolves. They have three guys who are all more slated towards PF (Love, Beasley, Derrick Williams). They have a decent prospect in Wesley Johnson, though I am still thinking DeMarcus Cousins would have been a better pick. They have Ricky Rubio as their PG of the future, with no idea how that turns out, particularly with his shooting woes he has displayed this past year. Can one not be concerned for their future if they choose to sign Kevin Love to a max deal? Does one have to dislike Kevin Love with all of these reasons on the table? Just because it is done, it does not make it the right thing to do.
It comes down to winning. Say what you want about KG, the guy was a top 5 player in the league and won a MVP on Minnesota. He lead to the play-offs with next to nothing and even went to a Conference Finals. I do not think you need to dislike Kevin Love to think that signing him to max money is maybe not the best move one could make. He is not going to be Kevin Garnett. He is an incredible passer, but you need people to pass to. The Timberwolves guard rotation leaves a lot to be desired. Wesley Johnson and Derrick Williams are not Dwyane Wade and LeBron James. They have no center. Yes, a new coach might be nice, and if I were a Timberwolf fan, I probably would not want to lose Kevin Love.
Signing Kevin for max money is VERY dangerous. He has luckily been fairly (emphasis on fairly) durable, but he has horrible knees and was described by many as a ticking injury time bomb. I am a huge fan of his, I think he is an awesome player, but I would rather have Chris Bosh be the best player on my team rather than him. Yes, they all play the same competition, but notice that when a good player switches to a different organization, many times their stats decrease. They do not have to do as much as before. Does that mean they are a worse player? I really don't think so. I feel like Chris Bosh is still very close to the player he was before, if not better. He is still a tougher cover than Kevin Love and plays much better defense. Kevin is an incredible rebounder, but he does have a really hard time stopping lengthier, faster PF's. That is something you will have to deal with when investing max money into him and you better hope the other pieces fall into place. Otherwise, you are stuck in purgatory.
I see where you're coming from, perhaps Bosh is a SLIGHTLY better first option, but neither are going to get u far as #1's. Bosh did do a terrific job this year and I don't by any means think hes any less of a player now than before, simply has been put in a poor offensive situation with 2 ball dominant perimeter players. It takes away some of his mismatch advantages and ability to get to the line. I just don't think he'd be doing much better than Love if given the same situation. Plus, who's to say that if the Wolves sign love to max deal, that they arent doing it to go ahead and lock him in hoping they find 2 better players to be 1st and 2nd option.
The only way I wouldn't sign Love to whatever the market says he's worth, is if I can find a trade that would get me the rtight talent and pieces back.
my top 10 pf's
i really think duncan and kg's top level days are over. I was watching duncan very closely in the first round of the playoffs becasue i know a lot of people were giving him the benefit of the doubt all--season saying he was saving it for the playoffs. But he went out and actually played hard and tried to carry his team and still finished with just 12.7ppg and 10 boards and had ZBO taking his lunch money. KG plays in spurts these days taking as many plays off as possible.