[qDizzle32Participant]

I have officially taken him out of my 2015 Mock Draft. Not only does he not play much, but doesn’t even score much when he has opportunites. After having him as a Top 5 pick for the entire preseason, not even sure where he could place in the next year’s draft as well. I really hope he doesn’t become the next James Michael McAdoo. Being a Top 5 ranked high school recruit, the MVP of the 2011 MDAA and Jordan Brand games to going undraftred after three years in college. 

[MopgrassParticipant]

He hasn’t played enough to prove himself either way. He’d drop in the draft if he came out this year (I bet he does no matter what), but I’d be shocked if he didn’t go in the lottery.

[MopgrassParticipant]

He hasn’t played enough to prove himself either way. He’d drop in the draft if he came out this year (I bet he does no matter what), but I’d be shocked if he didn’t go in the lottery.

[Lotto StudParticipant]

I, along with a few others touched base with this topic.

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/do-not-enter-watch-list

[Lotto StudParticipant]

I, along with a few others touched base with this topic.

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/do-not-enter-watch-list

[GBeeParticipant]

 self isnt in the business of showcasing players. he’s in the business of winning games and BUILDING players. right now, oubre has no niche skill-wise. he’s just a physical specimen. he’s not a better defender or ball-handler than either selden or svi. he doesn’t shoot it better than svi or greene. he’s not an energy player. he’s not a high iq player. kelly is very green, but if he sticks with it and is receptive to the coaching he’ll earn his keep and come out of this a better player.

 

 self was asked about this after their first game in the tourney, and to paraphrase he basically said that he doesn’t pay any attention to rankings or draft projections. he deals with what’s in front of him and plays the players he feels gives his team the best chance of winning each game. as we’ve seen with cliff, he’s not refusing to play the freshmen, cliff has earned more extended runs with his solid play.  self also alluded players putting in the work on the practice floor and off the floor.  maybe kelly bought into his own hype and isn’t working as hard as he should.  

 

 self’s not obligated to play top frosh recruits if that recruit isn’t better or fills a niche better than another player on his roster. this isn’t what kelly or anyone else expected, but i think it’s better for him to have his reality check now than later. he’s got a lot to learn.

[Lotto StudParticipant]

(Cough) Keith (Cough) Frazier.

[Lotto StudParticipant]

(Cough) Keith (Cough) Frazier.

[GBeeParticipant]

 self isnt in the business of showcasing players. he’s in the business of winning games and BUILDING players. right now, oubre has no niche skill-wise. he’s just a physical specimen. he’s not a better defender or ball-handler than either selden or svi. he doesn’t shoot it better than svi or greene. he’s not an energy player. he’s not a high iq player. kelly is very green, but if he sticks with it and is receptive to the coaching he’ll earn his keep and come out of this a better player.

 

 self was asked about this after their first game in the tourney, and to paraphrase he basically said that he doesn’t pay any attention to rankings or draft projections. he deals with what’s in front of him and plays the players he feels gives his team the best chance of winning each game. as we’ve seen with cliff, he’s not refusing to play the freshmen, cliff has earned more extended runs with his solid play.  self also alluded players putting in the work on the practice floor and off the floor.  maybe kelly bought into his own hype and isn’t working as hard as he should.  

 

 self’s not obligated to play top frosh recruits if that recruit isn’t better or fills a niche better than another player on his roster. this isn’t what kelly or anyone else expected, but i think it’s better for him to have his reality check now than later. he’s got a lot to learn.

[tuck243Participant]

Although I do agree with Self’s strategy with approaching his players, one does have to wonder if he goes into those recruits houses spewing the same thing…  

I don’t care how much Kelly Oubre bought into his own hype, he would legit play extended minutes and start at other schools…  Having NBA talent and being able to showcase that talent is 2 different things.. Can Kelly be majority of the blame for him not playing?  Yes…but if he’s not able to play then it’s Self’s problem too…

This is 2 years in a row where Self took a star player and suppressed his talent…  If I’m a recruit I’ll look elsewhere because Self isn’t into One and Done players…

 

 

  

[Big_C_KUParticipant]

Oubre and his father both said after they signed with KU that Self told them that Oubre would have to work for his playing time and wasn’t going to be handed anything so you can take that for what it’s worth. 

Also Self supressed who last year? If anything Self just wasn’t completely sure how to use Wiggins last year. He didn’t hold Embiid back at all. In fact I’m sure Self plans invisioned Embiid being at KU for 2-3 years but when he realized Embiid was good enough and ready he didn’t hold him back one bit.

 

[MopgrassParticipant]

Wrong. Self held back Embiid the 1st half of the year, even when it was very clear he was the best player on the court and the team did better with him there. I watched every Kansas game.

I keep saying this: Self is trying to stash players. He said so himself: he’d said he wanted to hold off on playing him his freshman year so he could play him his sophomore year. Kansas is better every second Cliff Alexander is on the floor. There is no reason to hold him back.

Self must figure that Greene can do Oubre’s job and that they’ll have a more developed Oubre next year… an extra year would benefit every college. But is it stunting his growth? Of course.

I realize Self thinks this strategy of, “Earn your time” is working, but I think had he just started all of his starters at the beginning of the year, they’d have done better as a unit. While Embiid was injure in the end, the group never really put it all together.

Point being: play Oubre.

[Big_C_KUParticipant]

Yeah he really held Embiid back playing him 20 minutes vs Duke the 2nd game of the year, 26 minutes vs Iona the 3rd game of the year and moving him into the starting lineup by early December. Self didn’t play Embiid until he felt he was truly ready to start and stay out of foul trouble and I feel he’s doing the exact same thing with Alexander. Was all about fouls with Embiid because Embiid was finishing damn near every game early in the year with 4-5 fouls. I expect Alexander to be starting here in the next few weeks.

There’s a reason Alexander is finishing games and that’s because he is the best option and Self realizes this. Doesn’t mean he has to rush him into starting him from day 1 if he’s not completely ready. 

[Big_C_KUParticipant]

Yeah he really held Embiid back playing him 20 minutes vs Duke the 2nd game of the year, 26 minutes vs Iona the 3rd game of the year and moving him into the starting lineup by early December. Self didn’t play Embiid until he felt he was truly ready to start and stay out of foul trouble and I feel he’s doing the exact same thing with Alexander. Was all about fouls with Embiid because Embiid was finishing damn near every game early in the year with 4-5 fouls. I expect Alexander to be starting here in the next few weeks.

There’s a reason Alexander is finishing games and that’s because he is the best option and Self realizes this. Doesn’t mean he has to rush him into starting him from day 1 if he’s not completely ready. 

[Big_C_KUParticipant]

Also on playing Oubre you play who is ready right now not who MIGHT be ready to play in February or next year or because he’s a top draft prospect in the upcoming draft. Svi and Greene are clearly ahead of Oubre in impacting the game, understanding the game and making the correct decisions. If he isn’t willing to earn his playing time then he’ll either transfer or go pro and be a 2nd round pick. Either way KU and Self will be fine.

[Big_C_KUParticipant]

Also on playing Oubre you play who is ready right now not who MIGHT be ready to play in February or next year or because he’s a top draft prospect in the upcoming draft. Svi and Greene are clearly ahead of Oubre in impacting the game, understanding the game and making the correct decisions. If he isn’t willing to earn his playing time then he’ll either transfer or go pro and be a 2nd round pick. Either way KU and Self will be fine.

[MopgrassParticipant]

Wrong. Self held back Embiid the 1st half of the year, even when it was very clear he was the best player on the court and the team did better with him there. I watched every Kansas game.

I keep saying this: Self is trying to stash players. He said so himself: he’d said he wanted to hold off on playing him his freshman year so he could play him his sophomore year. Kansas is better every second Cliff Alexander is on the floor. There is no reason to hold him back.

Self must figure that Greene can do Oubre’s job and that they’ll have a more developed Oubre next year… an extra year would benefit every college. But is it stunting his growth? Of course.

I realize Self thinks this strategy of, “Earn your time” is working, but I think had he just started all of his starters at the beginning of the year, they’d have done better as a unit. While Embiid was injure in the end, the group never really put it all together.

Point being: play Oubre.

[Big_C_KUParticipant]

Oubre and his father both said after they signed with KU that Self told them that Oubre would have to work for his playing time and wasn’t going to be handed anything so you can take that for what it’s worth. 

Also Self supressed who last year? If anything Self just wasn’t completely sure how to use Wiggins last year. He didn’t hold Embiid back at all. In fact I’m sure Self plans invisioned Embiid being at KU for 2-3 years but when he realized Embiid was good enough and ready he didn’t hold him back one bit.

 

[B-ball fanParticipant]

Almost all of Self’s players look better in the NCAA than NBA.  Cole Aldrich, Xavier Henry, Julian Wright, Sherron Collins (not a major prospect, but still), Ben McLemore, Thomas Robinson.

Some KU prospects do overachieve (Such as Markieff Morris and Mario Chalmers) and some meet expectations (Marcus Morris and Darrell Arthur).  For Wiggins it is too early to tell, but it looks like he is on track to meet reasonable expectations.  

But overall, I think Self deserves credit for having so many lottery picks come from his program.  Elite prospects have a higher NCAA success rate at KU than elsewhere.  I think it is silly to complain about Self’s showcasing of pro prospects when KU’s players get repeatedly drafted so high, probably higher than they should go.

[B-ball fanParticipant]

Almost all of Self’s players look better in the NCAA than NBA.  Cole Aldrich, Xavier Henry, Julian Wright, Sherron Collins (not a major prospect, but still), Ben McLemore, Thomas Robinson.

Some KU prospects do overachieve (Such as Markieff Morris and Mario Chalmers) and some meet expectations (Marcus Morris and Darrell Arthur).  For Wiggins it is too early to tell, but it looks like he is on track to meet reasonable expectations.  

But overall, I think Self deserves credit for having so many lottery picks come from his program.  Elite prospects have a higher NCAA success rate at KU than elsewhere.  I think it is silly to complain about Self’s showcasing of pro prospects when KU’s players get repeatedly drafted so high, probably higher than they should go.

[tuck243Participant]

You do understand this right? What about Scouts best player in the country, Josh Selby?  All I’m saying is Self hasn’t developed any star players PERIOD…  He forces players to be damn near 4 year players and then they’re turned into role players in the league…  That’s fine, but most guys coming in that program had their own names prior to entering it…  

So saying "KU’s players get repeatedly drafted so high, probably higher than they should go."  is very misleading…  Thomas Robinson was a 5 star recruit…  Embiid…  Hell even Perry Ellis was too…  

[tuck243Participant]

You do understand this right? What about Scouts best player in the country, Josh Selby?  All I’m saying is Self hasn’t developed any star players PERIOD…  He forces players to be damn near 4 year players and then they’re turned into role players in the league…  That’s fine, but most guys coming in that program had their own names prior to entering it…  

So saying "KU’s players get repeatedly drafted so high, probably higher than they should go."  is very misleading…  Thomas Robinson was a 5 star recruit…  Embiid…  Hell even Perry Ellis was too…  

[B-ball fanParticipant]

 And it isn’t like Self is a Calipari-esque recruiter.  He gets some great recruits, but few of those guys were can’t-miss prospects entering KU.  Guys like the Morris twins, T-Rob, and Aldrich had to develop in college to become high draft picks.  Ben McLemore wasn’t expected to be a lotto pick when he was recruited to KU.

[B-ball fanParticipant]

 And it isn’t like Self is a Calipari-esque recruiter.  He gets some great recruits, but few of those guys were can’t-miss prospects entering KU.  Guys like the Morris twins, T-Rob, and Aldrich had to develop in college to become high draft picks.  Ben McLemore wasn’t expected to be a lotto pick when he was recruited to KU.

[tuck243Participant]

Although I do agree with Self’s strategy with approaching his players, one does have to wonder if he goes into those recruits houses spewing the same thing…  

I don’t care how much Kelly Oubre bought into his own hype, he would legit play extended minutes and start at other schools…  Having NBA talent and being able to showcase that talent is 2 different things.. Can Kelly be majority of the blame for him not playing?  Yes…but if he’s not able to play then it’s Self’s problem too…

This is 2 years in a row where Self took a star player and suppressed his talent…  If I’m a recruit I’ll look elsewhere because Self isn’t into One and Done players…

 

 

  

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 This is why I compare him to Paul George. Hes not aggresive enough, but all the tools are there. It took Paul a couple seasons at Fresno. Kelly is gonna get the soft label because he does not run through screens, but he needs that dog in him. Needs to be tougher. Hes a "pretty boy" to be honest.. I see how he is on IG, so I know hes a laid back and let the game come to him type of player. Self sees all the tools but hes not gonna play him if he does not get tougher and take over games. 

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 This is why I compare him to Paul George. Hes not aggresive enough, but all the tools are there. It took Paul a couple seasons at Fresno. Kelly is gonna get the soft label because he does not run through screens, but he needs that dog in him. Needs to be tougher. Hes a "pretty boy" to be honest.. I see how he is on IG, so I know hes a laid back and let the game come to him type of player. Self sees all the tools but hes not gonna play him if he does not get tougher and take over games. 

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 Yeah I hate when coaches do that with really talented players, its selfish.. Like when JP Tokoto was a freshman Roy held him back and barely played him because he knew if he had a good season he would have went to the NBA, same with Gabe York.. Me and my brother always been saying this, these coaches tryna help the program by not playing certain players. But they do have to earn their time. 

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 Yeah I hate when coaches do that with really talented players, its selfish.. Like when JP Tokoto was a freshman Roy held him back and barely played him because he knew if he had a good season he would have went to the NBA, same with Gabe York.. Me and my brother always been saying this, these coaches tryna help the program by not playing certain players. But they do have to earn their time. 

[ncballer]

Did you watch Tokoto his freshman season?  He was just as lost if not more lost than Oubre this season.  SMH at the Roy hate.  He essentially did to Tokoto what Self has done with Oubre and both are the correct decisions IMHO.  Neither were/are ready to contribute.  

[ncballer]

Did you watch Tokoto his freshman season?  He was just as lost if not more lost than Oubre this season.  SMH at the Roy hate.  He essentially did to Tokoto what Self has done with Oubre and both are the correct decisions IMHO.  Neither were/are ready to contribute.  

[HitsterParticipant]

 I’ve got to catch up on a few Jayhawks games in the next week so I’ll comment on Kelly then when I’ve seen some detailed footage.

I fully agree that Bill Self’s role is to coach the Jayhawks not nuture NBA prospects, he’s paid to get results and he’ll pick his line ups accordingly. His conversion rate from NCAA stars to NBA stars isn’t as high as other top coaches, Deron Williams is his only All Star I think (please correct me if I’m wrong).

But his NCAA coaching record is elite level, he has made the NCAA tournament every year since 1999, has 82% win rate with the Jayhawks, NCAA title 2008, Runners Up 2012. The guy is building an HOF worthy coaching record and is only 52 so could well go on to join the greats if he remains a Head Coach into his 60’s. 

I don’t see how we can criticise his decisions or think we know more about winning than he does.

 

 

[HitsterParticipant]

 I’ve got to catch up on a few Jayhawks games in the next week so I’ll comment on Kelly then when I’ve seen some detailed footage.

I fully agree that Bill Self’s role is to coach the Jayhawks not nuture NBA prospects, he’s paid to get results and he’ll pick his line ups accordingly. His conversion rate from NCAA stars to NBA stars isn’t as high as other top coaches, Deron Williams is his only All Star I think (please correct me if I’m wrong).

But his NCAA coaching record is elite level, he has made the NCAA tournament every year since 1999, has 82% win rate with the Jayhawks, NCAA title 2008, Runners Up 2012. The guy is building an HOF worthy coaching record and is only 52 so could well go on to join the greats if he remains a Head Coach into his 60’s. 

I don’t see how we can criticise his decisions or think we know more about winning than he does.

 

 

[tuck243Participant]

Not one person can sit and think he’s not a good coach…   It’s just he’s all about winning, which the actual landscape of being a college coach is bigger than that…  Not every recruit is Thomas Robinson (which he did an excellent job with btw as a man)…  Some are going to be considered One and Done players (maturity wise or not)…  For him to not be able to balance that is an issue…

I don’t care who you are…  Almost EVERY recruit wants to go to the NBA, especially top recruits.  To neglect that understanding is IMO costing some guys money….

  

[tuck243Participant]

Not one person can sit and think he’s not a good coach…   It’s just he’s all about winning, which the actual landscape of being a college coach is bigger than that…  Not every recruit is Thomas Robinson (which he did an excellent job with btw as a man)…  Some are going to be considered One and Done players (maturity wise or not)…  For him to not be able to balance that is an issue…

I don’t care who you are…  Almost EVERY recruit wants to go to the NBA, especially top recruits.  To neglect that understanding is IMO costing some guys money….

  

[HitsterParticipant]

 Bill Self’s job is to coach the Jayhawks and make them as successful as he can, if that means that likely one and done guys have to look elsewhere for college choices then so be it. Bill Self will be judged on his Jayhawks results not how many successful NBA players he turns out or even how high they are drafted.

[HitsterParticipant]

 Bill Self’s job is to coach the Jayhawks and make them as successful as he can, if that means that likely one and done guys have to look elsewhere for college choices then so be it. Bill Self will be judged on his Jayhawks results not how many successful NBA players he turns out or even how high they are drafted.

[McDunkin]

Smh at Oubre or so much hate at those that produced the one and done hype for him and those that chose to buy into it without really knowing his game.

Like I mentioned in a past thread before the super boost in his stick last year he was being called a super athlete with a good spot up shot…but that was it. He played no defense didn’t use his athleticism to grab boards and seemed fine with that.

That’s why I was surprised when the “Wiggins replacement” title and Rudy Gay comparisons started rolling in. I even saw him compared to an athletic klye korver once going into his last summer of AAU because of the way he loved to hang around the 3 point line

[McDunkin]

Smh at Oubre or so much hate at those that produced the one and done hype for him and those that chose to buy into it without really knowing his game.

Like I mentioned in a past thread before the super boost in his stick last year he was being called a super athlete with a good spot up shot…but that was it. He played no defense didn’t use his athleticism to grab boards and seemed fine with that.

That’s why I was surprised when the “Wiggins replacement” title and Rudy Gay comparisons started rolling in. I even saw him compared to an athletic klye korver once going into his last summer of AAU because of the way he loved to hang around the 3 point line

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

well he’s been such a huge disappontment, that i just unfriended him on twitter!!!

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

well he’s been such a huge disappontment, that i just unfriended him on twitter!!!

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

but seriously,he was clearly a little over hyped..to me he looks like a 2 or 3 yr player…this experience will only humble him..

he needs to come back and work on improving his overall game….he’s a good passer,can finish in traffic,gets to the line and rebounds well for his size..coach self has a history of turning projects into nba players..imagine what he can do with some of oubre’s talents….

 

 

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

but seriously,he was clearly a little over hyped..to me he looks like a 2 or 3 yr player…this experience will only humble him..

he needs to come back and work on improving his overall game….he’s a good passer,can finish in traffic,gets to the line and rebounds well for his size..coach self has a history of turning projects into nba players..imagine what he can do with some of oubre’s talents….

 

 

[rileymcshea3Participant]

 I still believe in Oubre. Kansas is going to make him a better all around player and help him in the long term. It’s just like Wiggins when he was at Kansas, I’m not saying Oubre is as good as Wiggins but I think their college situations are alike. Oubre, like Wiggins could have gone to any other college where he would be the most talented player and get to shoot as many shots as he wants while resting on defense, but that doesn’t teach him winning basketball. That sounds more like the aau style of play that Greg Popovich stays away from. Instead at Kansas he’ll fight for his minutes in a competitive atmosphere and have to do the little things right that leads to winning, which sounds more like the Spurs way that won them the title last year without the most talent.

Not saying Oubre is a top 10 pick right now, but down the road when he’s in the NBA dunking on people while playing winning basketball he’ll show that he is a good NBA player.

[rileymcshea3Participant]

 I still believe in Oubre. Kansas is going to make him a better all around player and help him in the long term. It’s just like Wiggins when he was at Kansas, I’m not saying Oubre is as good as Wiggins but I think their college situations are alike. Oubre, like Wiggins could have gone to any other college where he would be the most talented player and get to shoot as many shots as he wants while resting on defense, but that doesn’t teach him winning basketball. That sounds more like the aau style of play that Greg Popovich stays away from. Instead at Kansas he’ll fight for his minutes in a competitive atmosphere and have to do the little things right that leads to winning, which sounds more like the Spurs way that won them the title last year without the most talent.

Not saying Oubre is a top 10 pick right now, but down the road when he’s in the NBA dunking on people while playing winning basketball he’ll show that he is a good NBA player.

[GBeeParticipant]

 lol at the people claiming that self is trying to suppress oubre’s talent.  look at how he’s using cliff and svi. he has no issues playing them. if oubre was better than 17 y/o svi at this moment, he’d be getting his minutes. and don’t bring up the excuse that svi will be back bc he won’t be draft eligible. svi could leave at any moment and sign a lucrative pro contract. self is simply playing the better player.

as if the only way that players can get better is by playing in games.  the fact is that players get better putting in work outside of the games.  just be honest, you want to see him play, which is all fine and dandy, but if he’s not ready to contribute anything substantial and there are alternatives (which there are) then he won’t get much run. it’s as simple as that.  it’s up to oubre to put in the work outside of games so that he can improve and least fill a niche better than a teammate he’s competing with for PT.

 

 

[GBeeParticipant]

 lol at the people claiming that self is trying to suppress oubre’s talent.  look at how he’s using cliff and svi. he has no issues playing them. if oubre was better than 17 y/o svi at this moment, he’d be getting his minutes. and don’t bring up the excuse that svi will be back bc he won’t be draft eligible. svi could leave at any moment and sign a lucrative pro contract. self is simply playing the better player.

as if the only way that players can get better is by playing in games.  the fact is that players get better putting in work outside of the games.  just be honest, you want to see him play, which is all fine and dandy, but if he’s not ready to contribute anything substantial and there are alternatives (which there are) then he won’t get much run. it’s as simple as that.  it’s up to oubre to put in the work outside of games so that he can improve and least fill a niche better than a teammate he’s competing with for PT.

 

 

[Author]

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