I dont understand why everyone is so high on him all of a sudden?
He had a decent year at best this season in a mediocre pac 10
i understand he is having good workouts, but if he cant perform THAT well against his pac 10 opponents
why do people think he will be able to perform well against pros
in my opinion he has no reason being in the lottery in a lot of mock drafts.
i feel the same way and ucla fans will yell up and down about its his great potential..and i tell them" i havent seen that super star potenial) usually you at least see it in one game or at least a half where the player dominates...and then i hear its because he played sg instead of pg....really???? if kobe playes the 3 instead of the three..or if ray allen plays the three instead or even if derrick rose gets moved to the 2 instead of the one in college will he really look as average as jru?..i dont think so...im guessing alot of people are talking about the potential he showed in highschool against other highschool players half of at least 80percent went on to d2 schools...and i never put much stock into one on none or 2 on 2( esspecially when the guys you are going against are maybe second round picks)..i put more stock into 5 on 5
potential- Hoilday has the potential to be a top 5 PG and a great SG at the next level.
k i hear ya but thats based on what? highschool?
1st off- check out my mock draft
yea...he is a good player...many people thought he could go from HS to pros if he could...he thrived at times when he played PG.
nim tireof all these people mock drafts and im not gonna say someone is gonna be this or that great from what they did in highschool...at college he never showed any type of greatness and everyone that hypes him wouldnt be saying a thing about him if they never heard about him in highschool and all they say was his games in college same as alot of my brother friend pumped up felepie lopez years ago because of what he did in highschool..many people think alot of guys could go straight pro and be this or that ..doesnt mean they could those people just think they could..pretty much im jumping on no ones bandwagon who doesnt show me this so fcalled great potential ..hhonestly he reallly needs to go back to school skill wise but i cant blame him for comming out so he can get those millions and not be exposed even more in college
is getting alot of hype based on his potential and people see him like another Westbrook and I was high on him too, but what can you do? He wasn't asked to play alot of Point due to Darren Collison and he had to play off the ball rather then dominate and even then he still didn't get asked to score alot like some others young one and dones are asked to. I think he will be the 3rd best PG in this draft.
shouldnt matter where you are put at as a good player..and he tried to score more then he did he just couldnt and his fg and three point percentage reflected it and the potential once again is from highschool at least show it in college..dominate one game or at least one half
have already gone back and forth on this the other day. And bringing Kobe Bryant into this discussion because he would do well at other positions makes you sound kinda ridiculous. Holiday has a lot of potential. He did not show it with any consistency as a freshman, but it's not like 9 pts with a couple assists and rebounds is garbage stats on a top 25 team.
He has the ability to finish in traffic, go by defenders and defend both gaurd positions. His outside shooting, while not consistent, is technically sound. He has a ton of potential. He just got done with his workout here in Sac on Thursday and according to reports, he blew them away. They think he could be available a couple spots lower then 4, thus they may trade down. GM's are not biased. They like to keep their jobs, and that is why he is being discussed as a lottery pick.
reguardless what these gms scouts or whatever say im not gonna be convinced by a workout when you are being guarded by no one or 2 on 2's..the game is played 5 on 5 so untill i hear him blowing scouts away with 5 on 5 workouts i just wont be convinced..and his stats arent garbage but they dont scream " im a future superstar or have super star potenial either..from everything he showed in his one year he looks like he will be a basic good player in the nba..he didnt show any superstar potential
"potential" and taking over games or having good stats are 2 different things. You say you watched most of his games at UCLA, so let me ask you a couple questions and you tell me if you agree or not.
Does he have good size for a PG?
Does he have good athleticism for a pg?
Did he display strong finishing skills around the basket at UCLA?
Do his outside shooting mechanics look good?
Did he play sound defense at UCLA?
Does he have soild ball handling skills?
If he were to come back to college for another year, would you expect him to be a much better player?
If you answer no to any of these questions, then I guess we could just end this with we don't agree on how good he is and leave it at that. Only time will tell for sure what he is capable of in the NBA.
i actually agree with those things but... im not like alot of peopel who say..he has the potential to be a super star if the player doesnt show me...a potential super star at leats dominates one game in which you say " he just showed what hes capable of doing on a nightly bases..and i can answer yes to a couple of those questions for a couple of players and i can also answer no to a couple those questions with all those questions i cant answer yes to him being great at any of those things..just average to good..thats just doesnt trasnlate to superstar to me...my point is show me this great potenial and i will be convinced but im not gonna be convinced liek most cuz of what he did in highschool or because of what other people have said about him...two players i can say yes to those questions are danel hackett and greives vasquez does that mean they are gonna be superstars..nope just say they can do those things and have good size
are gonna compare the potential of either Hacket or Vasquez to Holiday, then you really don't know how to evaluate young players. I've seen plaenty of players take over college games, and I thought, there's no way that guy is gonna do anything in the league. I've also seen guys do very little in college and felt that they were gonna be studs at the next level. Remember, we are talking about a teenager who was not given the keys to his own team as a freshmen. He played alongside seniors like Collison, Shipp, and Aboya who were the leaders of that team. If he came back another year, it would be his team to take over. And you better believe scouts take that stuff into consideration. That is why it is called drafting a guy based on "potential". We disagree, it's cool. Later.
He had a whole season to do something! How can he produce in the NBA? Did Coach Howland completely keep the harness on him?
like i said hes shown no great potential just showe he might be a "good" nba player..once he shows me proof then ill believe
i agree with ya on that..he showed zero superstar potential while at ucla..i think alot of people are just biased because i promise you if they never had heard of him in highschool then watched every game he played this year( like i did) then they wouldnt talk about him being a future star....josh you said you play proball in europe ..where did you play at?..i played in isreal this year
I have not watched Holiday play much but I kind of see his potential and I am not sold on UCLA point guards. I know he plays good D, he has great size and in high school he could run a team. He was not able to show that in college. If he is showing that in drills then he should be a high pick. Only thing that seems to make people worry is he is not as athletic as Westbrook but they seem to believe he could be just as great.
lol..you bum sauce..its kurtis...yall looked bad this year..we ended up winning it all
Hey Sheltwon... Did you really say that you're not sold on UCLA point guards? Baron Davis. Earl Watson. Jordan Farmar. Russell Westbrook... Soon to be joined by Darren Collison and Jrue Holiday. I would reconsider your position on the UCLA points.
Let the record show that this UCLA fan is not hyping Jrue Holiday. In terms of his development, it's my opinion that he should return for his sophomore year. In terms of his payday, it's clear that he should go pro... and he likely will go pro.
To answer the questions from above:
Does he have good size for a PG? YES.
Does he have good athleticism for a pg? BARELY. HE'S DOESN'T HAVE COLLISON'S SPEED OR WESTBROOK'S JUMPING ABILITY, BUT HE'S STILL ATHLETIC.
Did he display strong finishing skills around the basket at UCLA? SOMETIMES. HE OCCASIONALLY WOULD MAKE A NICE MOVE TO BASKET... BUT HE'D TURN THE BALL OVER OR MISS THE EASY LAYUP JUST AS OFTEN. HIS MOST COMMON MOVE WAS A BEAUTIFUL MOVE TO THE HOLE TO THEN MISS THE LAYUP.
Do his outside shooting mechanics look good? BEAUTIFUL SHOOTING STROKE. (MIXED RESULTS, BUT ALWAYS LOOKED GOOD)
Did he play sound defense at UCLA? SOMETIMES. HE WAS BENCHED A FEW TIMES AND REPLACED BY MALCOLM LEE (ANOTHER FRESHMAN).
Does he have soild ball handling skills? DEFINITELY.
If he were to come back to college for another year, would you expect him to be a much better player? DEFINITELY... BUT PROBABLY WOULDN'T GET DRAFTED AS HIGH.
Jrue Holiday may turn out to be a great pro, and I'm rooting for him. But unless he comes back, he'll always go down as a disappointment as a Bruin... and if I was a GM, I wouldn't bet on him.
because he got skill
I cannot think of one point guard in the league who would fit the criteria of being average in college and then going on to be even an all-star point guard.
The only one that I can make a real case for is maybe Jamal Crawford. He didn't exactly light it up in college, but that's partially because he was suspended I think. I'm not really sure, all I really know is that when the Bulls drafted him I wasn't like, "Oh sweet! Jamal Crawford had this one game where he did this sick cross over and then put up 30 and...." I didn't really know what he was all about but I was excited that we were drafting a big point guard since we were still running the triangle offense then and he was a good fit. He's not even really a point guard though, he's more of a SG.
Mo Williams maybe? A guy who wasn't a star coming out of college at the point and went on to be a top PG in the NBA?
Skip to my Lou? He's doing pretty well for the Magic, did he have a good college career? Of course, I don't know if I would waste a Top 10 draft pick on Rafer right now, let alone someone who might be similar.
naw jamal did work in college ..and that sounded like a better assesment of jru not biased like llprez..and i agree if he went back he wouldnt get drafted as high because hed be even more exposed plus next years class is deeper and i cant blame him for taking the millions
I'm pretty sure we covered everything, but since you are calling me out as being biased, I have to correct you. True I am a Bruin fan and I root for all the Bruins to suceed. But I am very reasonable in my assesments of the players. If I did'nt think a Bruin would translate well to the NBA, I would be the first to call him out for it. I don't particulary care for Holliday as a Bruin because, I have already said, I think he underachieved and should have come back another year. I have never said that he would be great or anything, only that he has more potential then a lot of other more proven players in this draft ,and thus, should be a top 10 pick. Who knows if he lives up to it or not. I believe all my arguments have been reasonable and unbiased. You on the other hand, have made some crazy arguments about how Holliday should have been able to succeed despite playing out of position because guys like Kobe and Ray Allen can do it. You also compare him with guys who are seniors who have had many more years to develop.
I agree, I don't see what all the hype is about him. I watched him play during some UCLA games and I'm just not seeing it. He plays good defense and thats really all I saw. I'm not sure I would even take him in the first round. I would only take him if I needed solid backup guard.
The excuses I've heard is that he wasn't playing full time point because of Collison. Why would you use a lottery pick on him when you haven't even seen him play point at the collegiate level? I've also heard that he was slowed down by Howland's half court offense. Most of the teams in the NBA play more of a half court as opposed to up tempo.
NBA scouts and GM's are saying that he's looked great in workouts. What exactly do these draft workouts consist of? Do they include 5 on 5 games? If they're drafting players based on drills then they're even dumber than I thought.
Your Question: "Why would you use a lottery pick on him when you haven't even seen him play point at the collegiate level?"
Answer to Your Question: Russell Westbrook
You make a good point, but if Westbrook can thrive in Howland's offense and play well with Collison, why can't Jrue?
Westbrook showed the ability in college to play great against the best teams, especially in the NCAA tournament. I never saw Jrue play at the level that Westbrook did.
I'm not trying to criticize Jrue here. If he's a guaranteed lottery pick, he should go pro. I just think it's quite a gamble to take him so high.
Westbrook didn't "thrive" in Howland's offense until his Soph Yr. freshman Russ didn't hold a candle to Jrue.
Also, Westbrook didn't exactly thrive alongside Collison, most of his best games came early in the year when Collison was out and Russ was the starting PG (besides the memphis game when he was just unconscious~ probably the best game of his career besides his NBA triple double)
As far as I know Jrue didn't get to start ~10 games in a row at PG last year
I think it is a gamble to take him too high, because then your expectations will be set higher and I don't know how high he will ultimately reach as a player. If he is picked in say the top 10, then someone must've really liked what they saw in his workouts (which I am obviously not privy to.)
I think the point regarding Westbrook is good, although others have some good counters too, especially if you were to only compare their freshman seasons. But look at Westbrook's draft position- he ended up being drafted higher than where Jrue will go (and his stock also rose dramatically leading up to the draft.)
The thing about Jrue is that no one will be drafting him to play SG, he is purely a PG whereas the jury still seems out on Westbrook (if OKC is really seriously considering Rubio.) Westbrook is also a better athlete than Jrue, which I think gave him an advantage playing out of position (sort of) at UCLA.
Jrue is not un-athletic, but he's no gazelle-type with perfect basketball body. But that matters less at the PG position than that he is athletic enough, to go along with PG skills (and his size). If his defensive skills were criticized, then all bets would be off as he'd be a riskier pick. But he seems to have a lot of the 'safe' attributes than NBA GM's want.
All of this is more or less an attempt not to justify a super-high draft selection, but to try to understand why he has become a first-round lock (and the guy who played ahead of him is not.) I don't know that I'd pick Jrue at 6 or 7, but if I was sitting at 15 to 20 and I don't really have a permanent PG, then I would jump on him and then focus on coaching him well to catch him up to speed (to make up for lack of prime-time college experience.) Your other big man prospects by that point probably have a lot more holes in their game than Jrue.
For some reason I just have this feeling about him that he will come out of the gate faster than most inexperienced college PG's, that he has the court presence to do pretty well. Just as a random example, he will be much better than say Keyon Dooling, who came out early and had a better college career than Jrue and was picked at #10. Dooling just doesn't have the PG ability despite some other nice attributes, I think Jrue does/will.
Josh. First of all, get a life besides ragging on Jrue.
Let's start with the people playing different positions.... SG and SF are MUCH more closely related than PG and SG. On many teams the positions are INTERCHANGEABLE.
The comment about D Rose being able to play SG is just stupid. Maybe he could have played SG at Memphis because of the drive and kick offense (they basically had 5 INTERCHANGEABLE parts) but if you put D Rose on UCLA with Darren Collison (and Howland) I'd bet Rose would have a simliar type of season as the one Jrue just had. D Rose would have probably fared better (because he's ridiculous, but no one is saying Jrue is D Rose) but he most definitely would not have shined as he did at Memphis. I'd bet that his biggest impact would have been felt on the defensive end... sounds like Jrue Holiday to me.... Jrue was guarding the best player on the other team most nights and that says a lot about the freshman.
enough of that. stop comparing Jrue to Kobe, Ray and D Rose, that's just unfair. Jrue is a 6'4 PG with good handles, quickness, passing, defense, wingspan and a GREAT head on his shoulders. He plays the game the right way, he didn't complain last year when he wasn't getting what he wanted and he played his role on the team, granted that role didn't maximize his value.
I think if you put the ball in Jrue's hands he will do good things. He's a playmaker, not a scorer. This is a stretch, but I see a lot of Chauncey in him......... Good size, good defense, good demeanor, good decision making. It took Chauncey some time to be a consistent scorer but with time, he became a BALLER!
Jrue is solid all-around, he's a high-basketball-iq 6'4 PG and with a little more work on his shot and the ball in his hands I think he will be lethal. For now he's a solid role-player who plays good defense, is unselfish, and does what's best for his team.
like i said before if someone is suppossed to be a future super star SHOW ME THE POTENTIAL..dont make excuses about ..if this or its the system..you can say IF rose was at ucla garbage all you want but heres the thing....he wasnt ..when i hear potenial i wanna see it at least one game where you take over..and because i talk about wanting to see it and disagree with youre opnion i dont have a life??...so basically anyone that writes on this fourm has no life or if they ask to see this super star potential before jumping on the band wagon has no life???....like i said before from what he has SHOWN he doesnt project as a super star..more like a basic solid player
it just sounds to me like you've been debating this to a bloody pulp, and not just in this forum.
When the ball is in DC's hands 70% of the time it's very difficult to show much more than flashes of brilliance and i think that there were definitely times when Jrue showed his passing wizardry, though he never DOMINATED a game, because even if he did something special one time down the court, the ball was going to be back in DCs hands next possession.
There were definitely times that Nikola Dragovic DOMINATED the game with his 3-point shooting, so do you think he's a better prospect than Jrue?
I, unfortunately, live in WI so I didn't really get to see too many of Jrue's games. At least one flash of his brilliance was a left-handed dunk, can't remember against who, and afterwards he just flexed his muscles and screamed. you could see in his body language that he was thinking, "I COULD HAVE BEEN DOING THIS ALL YEAR LONG" and just the frustration of not playing a position that maximizes his skills... and still, he never complained and always played hard.
defense will be his specialty at first in the NBA, give his offense a chance to catch up.
He played the 2 guard for UCLA when he is a pass first point guard that is why he struggled in college and didn't show his playing ability. I think he will shoot up the draft boards and will be a top 10 pick because of his size and ability to pass and not be a selfish scorer type of player. He is also a great defender.
big ucla fan and the best assessment ive seen on all these jru chat fourms has been ghostface's by far even though im gonna root for ucla im still gonna be honest about its players and ive noticed alot of fans arent really honest about the players..if it was up to most fans the starting 5 would all get drafted and most dont list the cons of a player just the pros....im also a tru believer in the show me system ..just like when shavlik randolph came to duke hyped up and the other kid who played pf for thim with the bounce..i can remeber his name right now but i think portland drafted him..both wehere first team all americans but when they got to college they didnt show the super star potential bestowed on them in highschool..with potenial superstars they have at least showed that potenial a couple time to let you know they could be dominate reguardless where they play or the system they are in.
he doesnt have the physical gifts that westbrook has
he's not as quick as russell, but i think he has the rest of russell's physical gifts. He's a better passer and shooter, and i think he will make better decisions than russell.
i'm not trying to say Jrue is Russell, i'm just saying, that's an example of why you draft a lottery pick even when you haven't see them play the position.
who do you think is a better prospect between DC and Jrue?
id say dru because of his height...see my thing is i cant see it youre way because he hasnt shown me the superstar potential reguardless of the system or coach or what ever other excuses..does it make since for me to jump on the bandwagon of a player that hasnt shown me this superstar potential?..would you buy a stock if it showed you no potential of growth , all it showed you were average things but a regular stock brocker keeps telling you to buy because they know of the potential it has?
"would you buy a stock if it showed you no potential of growth , all it showed you were average things but a regular stock brocker keeps telling you to buy because they know of the potential it has?"
but if you can't see that Jrue has potential of growth... than I don't really care what you have to say.
That's like saying don't buy stock in Toyota because they posted losses last year... it's about the environment surrounding the stock. All of a sudden Toyota's a &$#%#&@! company because they had a bad year? No. The economy was a piece of crap- I'm sure they'll adjust and succeed in a better situation (if that ever comes)
The thing about Jrue is that we KNOW that he will be put in a better situation because the person that drafts him will know that he's no superstar SG, but that in the right situation he will be able to succeed.
Any GM would be foolish to draft Holiday higher than 10, but I think it's gonna turn out that way.
GM would be smart to take a chance on Holiday
i wouldnt take a chance unless he showed me that superstar potential
I have holiday going 6 to minnesota...
after watching him all season im just not buying him being a superstar..a regular starter ( a stretch) but not a superstar by any means. i cant even say maybe a allstar because that woul dmean he would have to be the second best pg in either the east or the west meaning over either rondo,paul,devin,rose,westbrook,brooks maybe, possibly rubio.
I see Holiday going to as high as 4 and as low as 14.
He does have skill. Many GM's are sayin' (my bro works in a florida gym where they scout NBA talent) that he would have been a star at UCLA if he played PG. He is a good slasher and could be great.
Trust me...he has the Superstar upside he just need time becuase he lost at year at UCLA playing SG when he projects as a PG in the next level
I think he reminds me of a Billups type player.
I'll take your word for it because I'm hearing too much about this guy's basketball tools and IQ. Ben Howland is a good coach, but may not be a good a developer of talent btw.
wow billups?..i dont see it..i watched every game billups played in college and some in highschool and in no way do those players play alike
he has qualites. He could be a good Billups-Like PG...
i think height wise i would say but holiday seems to have a hard time finishing when he drives alot more then billups..and he turn the ball over a lil too much for a shooting guard whos suppossed to be a point guard..and even though he is suppossed to be a pg his fg and 3pt percentage shouldnt have been as bad as it was