Who is better right now?
Better 5 years from now?
Me personally, I'm going with Wall on both questions.
Wall already averages more assist,steals,rebounds and blocks than Kyrie,You can teach Wall how to shoot better, handle the ball better, you can't teach Kyrie Wall's athleticism,Wall's ceiling is higher than Irvings. I think those youtube tapes of Kyrie dribbling has some of you guys overhyping him, he's good but not better than Wall.
ultimately, irving will produce more wins.
irving > wall, i guarantee it
Such an irrational comment. Care to explain why you feel that way?
How do you know that? You can't really say that
im going with irving on both accounts. and i also believe in 5 years it wont even be close. irving by a long shot.
though i think both players would have all star careers if i have to choose only one it would be john wall he dishes out more assits than kyrie
Kyrie has one season under his belt and it was more impressive than Wall's first two seasons. Kyrie is not the passer Wall is but a much more efficent player. Kyrie is a waaaay better shooter and is great at finishing at the rim. Wall has tremendous athletic gifts, but he must improve other facets of his game. Wall ceiling is higher because of his athleticism but Kyrie looks like the more driven player. It is still to early to tell on both guys, one year for Irving, and to Walls credit he has been surrounded by STUPID players.
i am safe to say that the extreme potential wall has, will never be fulfilled. he doesn't strike me as that player that will improve on his shooting significantly enough to surpass irving status.
irving will reach a higher ceiling
wall will reach his full potential he is a PG as far as i know the development that wall has as a player is already outstanding and fast but we gotta remember only reason why the wizards are not on last place last year is because of john wall if john wall was not there for the wizards i think they would tie the bobcats for the worst record in the nba thats how good wall is as a PG he dishes out assist and makes his teamates look good and his athletic ability and first step on drives reminds me of a rookie derrick rose (only in terms of athletic ability and fisrt step)
and wall's passing is not head and shoulders above irvings.
rookie year assist per 36 is 8 to 6.5, considering irving scored 5 more points on a 47fg% to 41fg% advantage, irving is the superior player
Who cares about per whatever. I'm not saying wall is better or Irving is better but if you are going to compare stats compare with the minutes they played not the per
Im going with John wall! Its not all about shooting he does it all he fills the stat sheets. Wall still gets you 16 point a game and near 8 assist he workking harder then ever this off season i think he will be better then irving overall and wizards has a better chance then cavs at making a playoff push in my opninon.
It is very close, but I think Irving just has the "it" factor. Wall is a fantastic talent, but I think Kyrie just has the personality to become a superstar in the NBA. Both are going to be studs in the NBA, but I think Wall will have better numbers, but Kyrie will have great NBA success.
I just think Wall is already the better passer and at 6-4 with his crazy athleticism and his willing to pass, sky is the limit for him.
@Tyrober as a Kentucky fan, he put a lot of big games away for us during his one season there. Some people blame our loss to West Virginia on his poor defense on Joe Mazzulla, but we just didn't shoot well.
Also, this next season will be his first season after a full offseason. Rookie year he had SL and last year was the lockout. We'll see how he looks after a full summer of preparing. If he improves his jump shot, he'll be a lock for an All-Star team and I believe will be top 5
Kyrie hands down..he's more fundamentally sound and he will win more games then Wall. Better shooter, passer, and on ball defender.
I think Kyrie's passing is getting a little underrated...and I think he is just as good of a passer as John Wall.
However, I disagree with saying that Kyrie is a better on ball defender than Wall. Kyrie looked like Steve Nash last year trying to guard other guards. I understand it was his first year but the kid really has some work to do on that end.
All in all...I'll take Kyrie. To me he just seems like a basketball savant. There are very few players that absolutely leave me baffled every time I watch them play and Kyrie is one of them.
People talk about John Wall having a higher ceiling because of his athleticism but I personally think Kyrie has just as high of a ceiling because of his basketball IQ and complete understanding of the game.
I think some people are getting their judgments clouded by the fact that John Wall can throw down insane dunks...
I want them both to succeed. John Wall is from my home town (Raleigh, NC) and is a really chill guy from the brief encounters I've had with him at the Y a couple years back when he played at Word of God Academy.
For a couple years the best PG in the League was considered to be Chris Paul 1A and Deron Williams 1B. I think this could happen to Kyrie and Wall in a couple years as well.
everyone who likes him is getting negged. Chris paul isnt the best athlete, he is just quick. Irving could be a more scoring version of him. typically guys who can shoot and score are franchise players(irving had nobody on his team last year) and players like wall will need players around him to be successful(like rondo needs shooters in boston). They both should become all stars and be top 5 point gaurds it is just a matter if you want a scoring version of chris paul or a bigger more athletic rondo.
I'm going with John Wall, he does everything better than Kyrie except score. Ultimately as a point guard he doesn't have to score. John Wall has been working on his shot this summer, he's almost 6'6 at the point guard spot, one of the top 3 point guards in terms of athleticism. Also during the playoffs Sam Cassell and he were at the clippers and Grizzlies series taking notes on Chris Paul and Mike Conley, the top 2, assist to turnover point guards in the league. Who also know how to use their speed to control the game, They know when to go fast and when to slow down. So he wants to get better. Also while Kyrie was trash talking Kobe, John Wall was getting advice from Chris Paul and Lebron James, those 2 along with Dwyane Wade have taken a liking to him, and are sort of like mentors/big brothers now.
Also I think John Wall will have the better team at the rate the Wizards are going now, and a better team helps make a player better. I also think Dion Waiters and Kyrie Irving aren't a good fit together, Dion Waiters needs the ball to be successful, which won't allow Kyrie to be the true point guard he is. Kyrie will be made a spot up shooter at some point. Dion Waiters can not work without the ball.
On the other hand John Wall and Bradley Beal fit perfectly. I'd rather be passing to Bradley Beal, Kevin Seraphin and Nene, then passing to Dion Waiters, Tristan Thompson, and Tyler Zeller. I'd take John Wall based on talent and circumstance. He's also going into his 3rd year, the breakout year for point guards lately.
Just a fun fact only 4 players have more assists than John Wall the last 2 years. Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo and Deron Williams. I don't think anymore needs to be said.
I agree with The Juice in that Wall is going to have a lot better surporting cast, Cleveland seems to be blowing their chance to surround their superstar with the right draft picks. I wasn't a big fan of the Waiters pick at all. I like Irving's game more but it looks like his team is going to be handicapped by some poor selections and it'll likely hurt his development. Because of that I'm taking John Wall in this debate
wall 5 yrs from now
I'm tired of this comparison. I mean how many people have really watched enough Wiz and Cavs games to give a good comparison on these 2, their styles of play right now, and who will be the better PG in the next few years? Don't worry...I'll wait
depends what YOU call "enough". i think i've seen enough to say it, anyway i've been saying it since way early in the season, probably first one in the site with irving over wall
I may be a little biased, but I'll take him because of his upside. Irving will be a very good player, and is the better shooter right now, but Wall is the better passer, playmaker, and defender right now and I think he'll be in the future.
i tell you why i feel that way.
you can give wall a ton of space and he wont shoot, and if he does, good for you. irving is unguardable. wall is extremely limited in the half court set, and when running the pick and roll he's not good at making defense pay for going behind the screen. wall's minimal progression from fr. to soph year. wall leads the league with 4 T.Os despite only handling the ball at a 25% usage rate. less than irving and teammate jordan crawford
all advanced categories point to irving (even when counting wall as a sophomore)
defensive rating (points allowed per 100 possessions) rookie year. is 110 to 107 (110 rookie year)
offensive rating: irving's 109 to wall 100
assist % is 37 which means they assisted the same amount of baskets when they were in the floor
and finally.......... THE CLUTCH GENE
irving will be a go to scorer where as wall... not really
as far as play style, with all these talk about waiters not complementing irving as good as beal does wall...
when sh!t hits the fan in the playoffs, give me the two who can BOTH creating their own shot as opposed to possibly none, in beal and wall
I think John Wall is the the best chance, of all the young PG's, to have a 20/10 season in the next couple years. Outside of Rondo and Rubio, I feel he's the best natural distributer of the bunch of younger PG's in the league. Unlike Rubio and Rondo (until this season, especially the playoffs) he's a dynamic scorer. I don't really feel he has a ton of holes in his game, just that he needs to settle down a bit and find himself as an NBA player.
Irving is a nice young talent, but he's a completely different player. He's a very good shooter for a point guard this early into his career, but not as good a defender or passer as Wall. Because of his shooting ability, he reminds me of Dana Barros when he was tearing it up as a 20/7 player, but I think Irving has way more staying power. By picking Wall, this is no slight on Irving, but I think he's a guy who'll probably never average 8 apg or 2 spg, but I think he's a 20 ppg scorer someday...just not as well rounded as Wall.
I go John Wall... As far as the future of the position goes, Rose is a better scorer, Rondo a better passer, but I think Wall is future 20/10/2.
anytime soon... He's not a good finisher around the basket or from mid-range as Rondo, much less D. Rose... His style is uptempo only and he really struggles in the Half Court game... I think too much emphasis goes into assists nowadays... Team success usually equates to ball movement... When majority of your team's offense is dictated by one player's initiation it becomes too dependant... We see this with Chris Paul and Steve Nash every year... I've seen that with Deron Williams last year, LeBron in Cleveland, and John Wall with the Wizards... There's a ceiling with that type of offense and the player that's it's surrounding need to be efficent in it... Deron and John Wall was simply NOT... That's why you saw them lose so much last year...
If Wall get's better around the rim or add a shot he's has a chance at being a 20 point scorer... And that's a big "IF', the saying goes "If an "IF" was a fifth we'll all be drunk right now"... And I'm currently sober...
Answer me this, though, John Wall averaged 8 apg and 8.3 apg on two very bad Wizards teams. Why is it so unfathomable that with a better supporting cast and some maturity of his game that John Wall can't average 10 apg? I think it's only a couple years away to be honest. Why is it so unfathomable that when he works on his mid range game a bit he can't average 3.6 more points to go with that?
Washington got rid of McGee and Blatche and have some nice young pieces to go around Wall. He may not hit that mark this season, but I think you'll see around 18 and 9 as soon as this season.
When looking at "special" players, I look for creativity. The types of moments where I didn't anticipate the move, pass, shot or dribble said player used to be successful. I've watched Wall and Irving quite a few times and its Irving imo, that has many more of these types of plays then Wall. This alone doesn't mean Irving is the better player but it is an indicator. It should be noted that just because a player is noticeably more creative then his peers doesn't mean his creativity is successful when used. Irving just happens to be one of those players who makes these plays worth while.
This season is where we will know if Wall's the real deal or more hype than hope. The Wiz have upgraded talent, rid themselves of knuckle heads and given Wall a chance to show what he's all about. I wish posters would stop using stats like 16 ppg and 8 ast per game as evidence of Wall's value. Efficiency matters. It actually negates your effectiveness considerably if you put up 16 ppg on 14 shots...or 8 asts per with 4 turnovers. Jennings is another player who falls in love with scoring inspite of his mediocre (being polite) shooting #'s. Mike James put up over 20ppg with rbds, and ast's rather efficiently as Toronto's starting pg for a full season. If most players get good run then they will put up good stats. Anthony Randolph can really fill up a stat sheet but does that mean he's better then Garnett?
So much goes into what it means to be "better" then another player. I've always been a fan of +- as an indicator. Decision making is another biggy. Veterans win championships every year because of their understanding of the nuances of the game... the quicker a young PG figures this stuff out the better.
No one questions how good of a PG Rajon Rondo is inspite of his low ppg total. Jason kidd never put up heavy scoring #'s but these 2 PG's have been fawned over their entire careers. Simply put, they make teammates better. They don't force the issue. They take plays as the come and make the best "team" decision. Stats end up reflecting their game management but they never appear to be trying to "get theirs".
So which player is better right now? Irving. Wall has NEVER impressed me. He's a good player. Not great. He has physical advantages over most other PG's, including speed and size, but put him in Ty Lawson's body and I doubt he's even in the NBA with the way he manages a game, his lack of shooting touch, average dribble (by NBA standards) and average creative ability (by NBA standards). These are all attributes which Irving has a leg up on Wall. Lastly, Irving appears to make his teammates better more consistantly.
5 years from now is pretty far into the future but I see no reason why this would change.
Irving wins hands down.
idk y i got negged
i mean wall is to talented not to reach his potential....
hes gnna put in the work
Since we're talking about advanced statistics. John Wall's assist to turnover ratio was better than Kyrie's. John Wall averaged 8.0 assists, and 3.9 turnovers to Kyrie Irvings, 5.4 assists and 3.1 turnovers. So John Wall was superior in A/TO ratio, Rebounds, steals, blocks, rebounds, and assists. So John Wall is superior in every way except scoring and shooting percentages. John Wall shot 42 percent last year, Russell Westbrook shot 43 percent, John Wall is a mid-range jumper away from being a 20 point, 10 assists, 5 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 block point guard.
Kyrie Irving is great but I'd take John Wall now and in 5 years.
I've really never seen the Kyrie Irving/Chris Paul comparison, I see Tony Parker in Kyrie Irving. His command of an offense and making the players around him better isn't anywhere near the level of CP3's. We saw that in college and his first year in the league.
So with all of your advanced statistics, John Wall still is a better floor general and passer than Kyrie Irving.
Also so many people make a big deal of John Wall's turnovers.
Here's the top 15 list of turnovers in the NBA last season.
As you can see Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo, Russell Westbrook, Ricky Rubio, Derrick Rose and KYRIE IRVING were right along with John Wall with over 3 turnovers per game. Only 5 of those players in the top 15 had a better A/To ratio than Wall.
They're both going to be great Point Guards. Top 10 in the league. It's really a coin toss, you can have either but i'd take John Wall.
of each player this season and looking at stats for your reasoning... Well if you are going to do that the biggest keys are Kyrie didn't play often beginning of the season... I think he only averaged 22 minutes a game for the first month or 2... Secondly, he is MORE efficent than Wall still outscoring him on less shot attempts WHILE being the number one option for his team... Wall's assists numbers are up but he also attempts more shots, plays more minutes, and has more turnovers than Kyrie... If you just want assists then look at Wall... Included in that, he gambles WAYYYYYYYYY too much on defense as I always find him out of position and does the arms up thing that Kobe loves to do at his teammates... I'm sorry this is more of a no brainer Kyrie is the better playing/PG right now...
Future??? Maybe it's Wall, but his shot hasn't improved and he's still a turnover machine... I don't know how he translates to wins because his offensive game is similar to Brandon Jennings as it's either on or off...
you can just look at the 2 play and see Irving is the better player... He seems to be undercontrol and does what's right for that particular moment... Wall seems to go full throttle all the time like he playing in summer league...
In all honesty this is not really something that takes much thought. The game of basketball is a game where athleticism matters and so I understand the fascination with John Wall.....but the PG position is a cerebral position that requires understanding of when to go, where to go, and how to go. For all of Wall's speed he lacks understanding of how to use it. He plays at 1 speed all the time and typically plays out of control. I also think that his handle isn't as advertised. He does not create off the dribble in a creative way. If he can't beat you with speed then he struggles to beat his defender consistently and I don't think he finishes that well in the paint and I don't consider him an elite passer. So what does he do at an elite level?
Kyrie cannot be sped up. He plays at a pace and you cannot rush him but at the same time when he wants to go by you he does and there is nothing you can do about it. He is smooth and crafty and has multiple ways to finish once he gets to the rim. Because you see athleticism means nothing if you cannot finish or understand what the help is doing. He is a fantastic shooter and has an understanding of how to play with others and get teammates shots without looking like he is about to run through a wall.
It is early in Wall's career but this is a big year. I know he can run fast and jump high but he has to learn the nuances of the PG position. He also needs to work on his jump shot. I will ask again; what does Wall do at an elite level besides run fast and jump high?
Is he a great scorer? Is he a guy who you see has elite court visiion? Is he an elite defender? Does he run a team in a great way? I don't see any of those things.I see someone who gets okay numbers on a bad team because he plays and has the ball a lot.
When I watch him play I see a talented kid who does not know how to use his gifts.
Look I can tell by the majority of these posts that most of you hadn't seen half of Kyrie's and Wall's games last year...
I'm seeing some praises and negatives of each player that don't make any sense at all if you actually watched a bunch of their games last year.
Like I said in an earlier post some of you guys don't know how good of a passer Kyrie is and just assume things off of box scores. If you actually watched the games last year you'd see that the Cavs actually had a worse cast of players to pass to than the team Wall got to pass to.
Another thing I've noticed is some of you guys just don't know how mediocre of a defender Kyrie is either. Wall is a FAR better defender even though he gambles a little bit.
I think we should chill with these comparisons until maybe half way through this season so we can finally get a real good look at both of these players.
Hopefully they're both on national TV a little more too lol.
For 3/4 of the season, the Wizards supporting cast was just as bad or even worse than the Cavs IMO. You can say that the Wizards supporting cast was more talented, but most of them didn't know how to play basketball well. Nick Young, Jordan Crawford, JaVale McGee, and an out of shape Andray Blatche were just dumb chuckers that didn't make anyone better. Nene was a breath of fresh air and Seraphin made incremental improvement as the yr went on, so I'll give you later in the yr.
yes wall runs faster and jumps higher but he dosent have the natural basketball instincts that kyrie has for a point guard there some things that you jus cant teach you either have those instints or you dont this is why chris paul is able to dominate the point guard position even tho hes not the most athletic guy. wall can obviously become a smarter player tho but in 5 years i would yake kyrie over wall i think wall will be a bigger version of rondo and kyrie will ultimately be a bigger version of chris paul in 5 years
I do not see the basketball IQ from Wall at this point in his career. I will be watching closely this year to see how he has grown.
John Wall is an Allen Iverson type defender. In fact; at this point in his career he has some poor habits because he attempts to be a shot blocker as a 6'3 - 6'4 guard. He gambles often but again as athletic as he is it does not translate. Neither are great defenders at this point.
I am just disappointed when I watch Wall play because of how he plays the game from the neck up. He just does, for lack of a better word, DUMB stuff sometimes.
Even in college he never to me showed that he was a cerebral basketball player.
I'd take Irving. He's as good a finisher around the rim as Wall (61.4% at rim vs 61.8% for Wall) while being a much superior outside shooter. His passing vision is good too so I'm confident his assist numbers will pick up.
Even though Wall is a superb athlete with elite measurements, Irving's a good athlete in his own right and not limited from doing what he wants on the court by any athletic shortcoming. The athletic disparity between the two doesn't show up in the results besides in Wall's shotblocking advantage.
Neither are even average defenders. Wall's bad defense is more puzzling because with his size, quickness and length, he should be a terror on defense yet guys just blow by him all the time.