Joe Johnson and the 3rd best sg
In your opinion, is Joe Johnson still considered the third best SG in the league? His competition consists of Eric Gordon, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin, Tyreke Evans, etc. i think he will lose the 3rd best SG title to Eric Gordon. Monta Ellis is too one dimensional aka scoring machine who has worked on his defense but is still a liability on d. K-Mart has a sweet stroke but i still dont see him surpassing the others on this list, plays no D. Tyreke Evans is a combo guard and could play sg or ppg depending on Jimmer's position. I say Eric Gordon takes his spot this upcoming season
I think he tied for fourth with Eric Gordon
and then Joe Johnson
Once Ellis and Gordon get in the playoffs, then I can say they have passed Joe Johnson. Neither of them have led their team to the playoffs as the 1st, 2nd or 3rd option, while Joe Johnson constantly has led the Atlanta Hawks to the playoffs as their 1st option.
I think it depends on whats your type or how you define a shooting guard. Eric Gordon is a scorer with top notch athleticism and a beauty of a jump shot. He's gotten more aggressive going to the rim highlighted by some of his huge dunks last year. What he has on all the other sg's is hes a good defender whos improving and takes that side of the game seriously. He will onl get better playing along side blake and if he tightens up that handle i wouldnt want to be the coach who has the stop a blake/EJ pick and roll or pop anytime soon. Ellis is pure offensive force who can turn it up whenever, his play making has gotten better but mostly seems like its a bail out option to me more then he was trying to create for others. Its just that when hes not on hes really not contrbuting much else on the court, hes undersized like Gordon but is rail thin and routinely gets abused by other SG. Im not saying hes a bad defender but theirs times u watch him and you just think wth was he thinking. Also hes kind of a by product of the system in Golden state where offense is 1st 2nd and 3rd while defense is somewhere near 10 If were talking more comlplete offensive packages Reke is the answer. He was slowed by foot problems but i still think he will but up big time stats next season. He can score on any Sg and can finish in the lane with the best of them. Is the best passer of the 3 but is not over top. If he could stop being a black hole sometimes and got the offense rolling since he has the ball almost every offensive threat i think its no question he would be the 3rd best. But i think the best way for him to stake the 3 spot would be to iron out his jumpshot and range to make penetration to the hole even easier and allow him to set up teammtes better but also taking it personally when he gets scored on. Thats the thing about Ej and even Eliis to a lesser extent when they get scored on they wanna dominate the person even more. For me ill take Gordon i think his three point shot will appear again his range and release looks so smooth and effortless, he takes the games serious and hes playing on a young exciting team, everything is really looking up for him
True but Joe Johnson has TONS of talent along with him on that Hawks team that know how to win.
Eric Gordon is in LA LA land with ALOT of talented guys but they all are young
Ellis only has Curry and David Lee
The only reason I put them over Johnson is Johnson dissapears alot of times, the series against the bulls where he had 2 outstanding games and they EASILY beat the bulls he posted numbers such as 34 points 12-18 shooting 5-5 from 3 4 boards 3 assist, and the other game was 24 pts and 5 assist, but for him to be a top tier guard you dont follow those games with stats such as 10 points??? 16 points??? O yea dont forget about the 5 POINT game he had against the Magic in 35 mins of play, and he's getting all that money so people will criticize him even more.
You should really watch Monta Ellis first before you comment on his game. Monta brings more than just scoring. He's a good playmaker, top guys in steals every year (he causes havoc in passing lanes), and shoots a good % for a player who shoots at a volume. The only weakness in his game is his size, otherwise the guy has it all (Speed, quickness, toughness, playmaking ability, and defense).
^^^^ I do watch ellis thats why I got him as the 3rd best SG in the league.....wat do u mean?
I was talking to champzilla
"that know how to win."
That's exactly what I'm saying. Joe Johnson knows how to win. You think Kobe would be known as one of the greatest if he didn't win a ring?
Joe Johnson has been in the playoffs pretty much his entire career. Yes, he has played with a good share of talented players. This will be the season where each of these shooting guards will have a very good team. New coach and an older Stephen Curry will help Monta. An older Blake Griffin and healthy Chris Kaman can help Eric Gordon.
There are a variety of question marks regarding Ellis and Gordon as well. If the Warriors are in the playoffs, is Monta Ellis their leading scorer and clearly best player? Will Gordon be the 3rd option next season when Kaman comes back and Griffin improves?
Even with all that talent Joe Johnson has on the Hawks, he is still clearly their best and most trusted player. He is still their #1 option. He has led them to the playoffs. Nobody says, "Al Horford and Josh Smith have led the Hawks to the playoffs!" They say Joe Johnson.
As of right now, I have to say Joe Johnson. Simply because of his prior success and resume. That could change this season.
its a shame Brandon Roy isnt healthy or he'd get my vote as the 3rd best SG in the game.
I do watch his play i always try and watch warriors games becuz your usually guarnteed a good offensive game even on a slow day he shoots a good percentage for a Sg who takes a high number of shots, he is excellent at jumping passing lanes but hes not a pick your pocket stealer and routinely loses his man especially on pick and rolls becuz he gets squeezed out by bigger players or he just doesnt care and again i think his play making is more on the offense then his decision making or passing ability, he also has capable 3pt shooters on the floor at all times which adds to his assists
I see what your saying somewhat about JJ knowing how to win, but then again if you put him on the Clippers or Warriors he would be home in May as well.
If you put him on the Clippers, he'd the be the obvious first option. Not like Eric Gordon where people don't know whether or not he's 2nd or 3rd. I honestly believe that a lineup of Davis/Williams-Johnson-Gomes-Griffin-Kaman/Jordan would be a playoff team. You have three all-stars in that lineup.
If he were on the Warriors, would they make the playoffs? I'm not too sure, but Johnson, Curry, and Lee would compliment themselves much more because none of them need the ball to be that effective. Whereas Ellis isn't so effective off-ball in an average tempo game. Thus making the Warriors a more cohesive unit and probably a better team.
I'm not saying anybody has to agree with me or that everybody is incorrect. This is just my personal opinion and speculation.
The Clippers would not make the playoffs if Joe Johnson played for them come on lets be serious, a guy who averaged 18.2 PPG and dissapears ALOT is not going to turn the Clippers into a playoff team, Joe Johnson is good but he isn't great.
I hear you tounge-out,
People rag on Joe Johnson because they say he's not a first-option type player on a contender. This is definitely true, but neither is any other SG in the league aside from Kobe and Wade. While Johnson may not be able to carry a team to a Championship, he has proven consistently that he can cary a team to the playoffs, which is more than can be said Ellis(although I'd still rank him a little higher at this point) and Gordon.
I'd go with
Also i think when people are choosing the best players the biggest thing that gets overlooked is what there doing when they have an off shooting day. If you look at ellis game log he had 23 games of less then 20 pts. His assist rates are terrible his turnover percentages are higher on top of the already low Fg% and when hes having that bad night his D is very trying and leaves alot to be desired. Also his Fg% in general is miss leading out of the 4 he has the most inconsistent one. He has tons of downers that are balanced out by his high performance games where as the others shot more consistently game after game. I bring this up because 23 games is essentially a quarter of the season your best scorer isnt on his game and whats he gunna do about it, all the others bring something to the table is they dont score thats the difference to me in deciding players and which teams make the playoffs and which team doesnt
Yeah, Joe Johnson averaged 18ppg on a bad year. He's still the same Joe Johnson that averaged 25ppg, 4.5apg, and 4.2rpg. People seem to forget exactly how good he is.
Tell me, if Joe Johnson was put on the Clipper last season at the beginning of the season. He would CLEARLY be the best player on that team. Whereas Eric Gordon was seen as the 3rd option behind Chris Kaman and Blake Griffin.
Joe Johnson hasn't averaged 25 PPG or anywhere close to 25 PPG in 4 years he's declined each year cut it out, Johnson is not what your making him to be seriously. If he played for the clippers he would be overshadowed by BG as well
Okay, let's check his stats AFTER he averaged 25ppg.
He's averaged 20ppg, 5.4apg, 4.4rpg since then. How is he not that good? He averaged more assists and more rebounds than Eric Gordon. Even on a bad year while Gordon has had the best year of his career!
Not to mention, he turns the ball over less on a bad year than Eric Gordon did on his best year! And he was the primary ball-handler as well!
AND, he fouls less than Eric Gordon while he's constantly guarding the best player on the other team!
All while averaging more minutes than Gordon these last four years!
*Stephen A. Smith voice*
No I said he is good but not great or what your making him to be, whatever the case may be Joe Johnson CAN'T turn the Clippers into a playoff team, simple as that.
Im with young dave on this one, Johnson Averaged 25 pts 4 years ago in only 57 games and seemed to have a fluke shooting year of 47% and highest since has been 45% dipping down all the way to 43% for a couple of seasons. His shots per game also went down but his assist level also fell so its not like hes setting up teammates as much when hes not shooting. He to me is clearly a 2nd option who needs to be playing with someone better then him for us to truly see how good he is because he would go from overrated to underrated in a fly, but then that contract would look like more of a mistake then it already was
The argument was Joe Johnson is better than Eric Gordon.
Exactly Johnson had a breakout year...Round of applause but he can't cut it as a go to guy, and the contract as I stated earlier looks like a huge mistake, and I clearly said him and Eric Gordon are tied for fourth but in a year or 2 I see EG surpassing him Johnson is on the decline and his stats show that.
Your right on all your facts about Johnson but your not telling the full story on gordon Johnson has 11 season gordon has only THREE! Gordon is inevitably going to be better next year and for a couple more years at that while i dont think johnson can really improve on anything else in his game to get him back to where he was. He just doesnt pass the eye test anymore. When i used to watch him i would always see him make the right pass or shoot the right shot but now when i watch him theres more and more question marks hes also making over 18 million a year to put up those stats while gordon is playing a rookie contract with a favorable Cba for the owners in the next season so Ej will always be younger ever improving and cheaper
And did you know Joe Johnson had 50 GAMES this year where he didn't score 20 or more!!!??? Lol this argument is over lol
Joe Johnson IS the 3rd best SG in the league right now. Are you guys really going to sit there and tell me you'd rather have 2 undersized guards than a 6'7 240 SG who has proven year after year after year that he is consistent and can get the job done, get outta here.
Yes, it's inevitable that Eric Gordon will get better. It's obvious. So I don't know how that's even an argument. I'm talking about RIGHT NOW. Eventually LeBron will be 35 while John Wall will be 29. At that point, John Wall will maybe be better than LeBron.
Does that mean that he's better than him right now?
Ha do you really think Gordon being undersized limits him that much? He has a 6'8.5'' wingspan with elite quickness strength and jumping ability. Johnson might use it on offense quite nicely but on the other end its not like hes continuly blocking others or physically dominating anyone, and your argument has no merit obviously Johnson looks more consistent cuz weve seen him play for 11 years, Ellis for the last 4 has consistently scored well and gotten better while Gordon had a good Rookie a sub par offensive showing his 2nd and really turned it up last year so yes i would
Aside from scoring, does Eric Gordon have better leadership qualities? Is he a better passer? Better defender on the perimeter? Better rebounder? Better post game? Better post defense? Better ball-handler? Better decision-maker?
No. No. No. No. No. No. No. and...no.
Well i meant the next NBA season i didnt mean 5 years from now sorry for not clearing that up, i see gordon taking a big leap across the board while johnson remains the same or slightly declines
Undersized means nothing they still produce at an high level a level much higher than Joe Johnson, if he's so good why did he have 50 games where he scored under 20? With a contract like that you better dominate, and he doesn't do that. Im done with this convo mark me down all you want Joe Johnson had 50 games out of 72 where he didn't score 20 or more EXPLAIN THAT! Thats 69 percent of the year!
Okay, now. Has he taken the big leap? Has be proven to be a better all-around player yet? No.
Until he proves it on the court, I'm not ready to say Eric Gordon is better.
Can he be better next season? Yes.
Can he have a bad season? Of course.
Explain that? Okay
He's playing with All-Star snub Josh Smith.
He's playing with All-Star Al Horford.
He's playing with volume scorer Jamal Crawford.
Now, aside from scoring, what else does Eric Gordon do more of than Joe Johnson? Riddle me that.
Exactly what Based said, we're not talking about future we're talking right now, and right now Joe Johnson is 3rd best SG. Gordon is right there at top 5 and will be a very good player in a few years when his team develops. But I'm not going to sit here and say Ellis is top 5, I'd rather have...RIGHT NOW Manu Ginobili, or Kevin Martin, who knows in a few months I may say Brandon Roy too.
You guys should really think, Joe Johnson had a DOWN year last year, he was injured and came back really early from the surgery (may have not been the best idea) he himself said he couldn't line up his shooting elbow completely correct until late in the season.
Also, with Jamal probably leaving in FA, Joe will have to take on a lot of the perimeter scoring again he will probably be somewhere back in the 21-25 PPG range.
I don't see how much Eric Gordon produces at a MUCH higher level Youngdave so if you could explain that, that would be great...
Neither Monta or EG get to play with a top 6th man (Monta did for half a year, the year he played 20 ish games off the ankle injury) 2 potential/perennail all star bigs
Brandon Roy had a Slight edge over Joe Johnson and Manu Ginobili as the 3rd best shooting guard before his injuries...Roy played with a mean streak and wanted to make his opponents look bad..Johnson as talented as he is, still hasnt shown any leadership qualities something Roy and Manu have shown..
So right now i'll have Manu as the 3rd best and Johnson number 4...Roy has slipped becuz of his injuries ...
Johnson is getting paid as the 2nd best SG in the league... Obviously not true haha but interesting non the less.
Just stop with the Ellis, Love and Beasley are all-stars or top 3 on their position bull&$#%#&@!.
People obviously are just looking at the numbers. Those guys played on fast paced teams and got a lot of minutes so obviously their numbers will be bigger than from someone. Everything Ellis can do is score. He is not someone who gets his own teammates involved, he is a poor rebounder and defender and turns the ball over on a high rate. He's gotten better with his range every year, I'll give him that. Especially his 3pt shot was very good this season. Still his shooting percentage is still below average. Johnson, old Roy and Manu make their teammates better, by playing good defense, being proven, reliable shooters and by getting their teammates involved.
Monta Ellis is 14th in ppg per 40 min (adjusted).
Monta Ellis is 19th ppg per 40 pace (adjusted).
Are you guys freaking kidding me? Scoring is almost everything he can do and he is barely in the top 20 in pace adjusted scoring while shooting an average percentage? Adding to this he is the center piece of their offense. The only reason people put him that high is because he was in the top 5 ppg list and because he has some nice highlights.
Just stop it. Look at the adjusted stats.
Edit: Lets not talk about the salary. Johnson is obvisouly overpaid like shit.
see the money pile from where I'm at. Alot of money on the table for a 30 yr old declining sub-par shooting guard.
@ Based Out did you not consider Monta to be the 2nd/3rd option most of 06-07 when the Warriors made playoffs?
It's really funny how Tyreke Evans can put up 20 pts and 6 assists and people are talking about how versatile he is offensively even though the guy can't shoot a lick, yet when Monta puts up 24 and 6 he's simply a one dimensional scorer who gets the assists from having the bal in his hands so often. Nevermind the guy is consistently puttin his points up at a high %. SMH. Haters gonna hate I suppose.
I'd go with either Joe Johnson or Manu Ginobli as the third best two guard in the league right now.
Eric Gordon isn't quite there yet. He works hard and his mind is in the right place, but he still has to improve his handle, passing/vision, in between game and play down the stretch. He's made improvements in all of those areas... Just needs to keep it up.
There's Wade and Kobe and then everybody else with Eric Gordon being the best young shooting guard and a healthy Manu Ginobili being the 3rd most dangerous. If you classify James Harden as a 2 guard (which I would) then he has to be somewhere in the 2nd tier.
"did you not consider Monta to be the 2nd/3rd option most of 06-07 when the Warriors made playoffs?"
That season, Monta started a little over half the season. Al Harrington, Baron Davis and Stephen Jackson all had higher averages in points, rebounds, and only Al Harrington didn't average more assists than Ellis. Hell, I can go as far as to say, Jason Richardson had a bigger impact in games than Monta Ellis that season.
So no. He was obviously not the 2nd nor the 3rd option on that team.
Dude, Richardson played like half the season all together, and both Harrongton and Jackson were deadline pieces added. Theyweren't even there for the entire time. Richardson had one of the worst years of his career that year while shooting 41% from the field with horrid D. Yeah, he was more impactful.
Now take a look at their playoff stats where they all played together and were healthy. Monta Ellis was actually the 6th scoring option behind Baron Davis, Stephen Jackson, Jason Richardson, Matt Barnes, and Al Harrington.
Not to mention, they all averaged more points, rebounds, blocks and only Al Harrington averaged less steals and assists than Monta of the 5 players mentioned.. As I've stated before.
Monta was never really given a chance in those playoffs due to his age and Nelson lack of trust in youthful players. Everyone knows Don Nelson's biggest problem as a coach(aside from no D) is not sticking to what gets him somwhere. He'll come back from a 15 point deffecit playing one way and all of a sudden start to play the safe way. Such as taking out Monta even though his ability to get out on the break was part of what made that Warrior team so dangerous.
So you agree that he was not the 2nd or 3rd option on that team?