share

James Harden trade

jacobkey
Registered User
Joined: 12/31/2008
Posts: 112
Points: 346
Offline
James Harden trade

I get why everyone is saying that it was a terrible trade but here are a few things to put it into a better perspective:

1) OKC averaged 105.7 ppg this season. Last year they averaged 103.1 ppg. Their shooting percentages went up from 47.1/35.8 to 48.1/37.7. They averaged 18.8 assists to 16 turnovers last year. This year they averaged 21.4 assists to 14.6 assists.

2) Defensively their numbers were virtually the same. James Harden is a solid defender not a good one so they didn't miss him much there.

3) Both Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant improved as facilitators and proved to be clutch down the stretch without Harden.

Bottom line, the Thunder gave James Harden a very good offer. It's easy to criticize them for being cheap but as a small market team they simply CANNOT survive if they are paying significant luxury tax dollars. If they had signed him, they would be handcuffed to the four main players (Durant, Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka) and would have virtually no flexibility to sign any role players, in addition to paying significant taxes.

Call me crazy, but I actually think this was a better team without James Harden. Having three ball dominate players, two of which (Westbrook and Harden) don't play particularly well off the ball, stunted this team's growth. But I guess with Westbrook's injury we'll never really know.


B Eazy
Registered User
Joined: 05/21/2009
Posts: 107
Points: 264
Offline
Except it wasn't a terrible

Except it wasn't a terrible trade...

jacobkey
Registered User
Joined: 12/31/2008
Posts: 112
Points: 346
Offline
Yet there are numerous people

Yet there are numerous people saying it was.

laxmison
Registered User
Joined: 05/19/2013
Posts: 68
Points: 88
Offline
I think it was one of the

I think it was one of the worst trades ever. Harden is a superstar , prob the best 2 guard in the NBA(now that Kobe is Injured) You can't trade a player like that

Velvet Hoop
Velvet Hoop's picture
Registered User
Joined: 09/12/2011
Posts: 148
Points: 279
Offline
They had to trade one of them...

Would you have traded KD (2nd best player in the league) or Russ (Top 5-10 player in the league). Hell no you don't. The only other consideration could have been Ibaka. However, I just don't think Presti felt good about committing to 3 perimeter players that need the ball in their hands, long term. They would have been very limited down low. and Ibaka is a freak on D and hasn't been playing basketball very long. The offense will come for him.

You are familiar with this thing called the salary cap, right? Keeping all 4 was not an option. I love the beard, but A) there was no way to know that Harden was going to have a second team all-NBA kind of a year, and B)they got excellent value in return. They were able to acquire a 20 point scorer in Martin to off set some of the scoring loss, a very promising rookie that is going to end up making this trade look great for OKC in a few years, a lottery pick and another future lottery pick.

If you notice, most of the assets that OKC acquired were inexpensive ones (rook, and pick). This is because they are already committed to KD, Russ and Ibaka. They don't have the resources to obtain players making a lot of money.

Don't just say you don't like something using hindsight. Tell us what you would have done differently and why.

jjbutler73
Registered User
Joined: 11/12/2012
Posts: 309
Points: 168
Offline
It's way too early to judge but

you are right. They can't pay everybody max dollars. Harden wasn't going to put up max stats playing there. They did the best they could. I don't know if they were better, but they weren't worse and got some future pieces. There is a reason all these San Antonio execs are running NBA teams now. Their system works.

Tyrober
Tyrober's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/16/2009
Posts: 2884
Points: 7806
Offline
I think the Thunder got a

I think the Thunder got a pretty good haul for Harden at the time. The lottery pick was a little worse than expected and we don't know what Jeremy Lamb can or can't be yet, but at the time it seemed pretty solid.. But I also believe anytime you give up the best player in a deal you are going to lose the trade. The team is obviously not better without Harden and it is just crazy to even think that.

@activehustle
@activehustle's picture
Registered User
Joined: 12/05/2008
Posts: 694
Points: 1702
Offline
I would take Harden over

I would take Harden over Serge anyday..I would of traded Serge for a serviceable PF.

jacobkey
Registered User
Joined: 12/31/2008
Posts: 112
Points: 346
Offline
Harden is definitely the

Harden is definitely the better player now but Ibaka has a much higher ceiling. If he had an effective post game and played more disciplined defense he would be a superstar and a far better player than Harden.

llperez
llperez's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/13/2009
Posts: 11913
Points: 11755
Offline
Terrible trade. They gave a

Terrible trade. They gave a young still improving star away for picks and an expiring contract. The difference between what harden wanted and what they were offering was 2 mill a year. They wouldnthave been in the predicament of having to choose between harden and ibaka if they hadn't given Perkins 9 mill per in 2011. We all know presti Is a smart man, so surely he knew he was breaking up the core when he gave perk that money.

Jmpasq
Registered User
Joined: 01/20/2013
Posts: 134
Points: 141
Offline
Yep the Perkins deal killed

Yep the Perkins deal killed them. Not having him they could of kept all 4. With those 4 u could just fill out your roster with draft picks and low level FA's.

FutureNBAGM
Registered User
Joined: 05/26/2013
Posts: 598
Points: 1440
Offline
All I know is that OKC sure

All I know is that OKC sure coulda used Harden during that Memphis series

phila9012
Registered User
Joined: 07/08/2011
Posts: 932
Points: 2131
Offline
if they had westbrook they

if they had westbrook they would have won.

Shyhill
Shyhill's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/05/2013
Posts: 53
Points: 32
Offline
Jumped the gun?

James hardens trade was prob one of the most cut throat ive seen in a while...but long term when harden becomes the top sg it would be a bad trade. At the end of the day they chose ibaka over harden

GottaBeTheShoes
Registered User
Joined: 06/04/2011
Posts: 839
Points: 2490
Offline
OKC still was playing Harden

OKC still was playing Harden at 6th man, they never realized his potential.

Hitster
Hitster's picture
Registered User
Joined: 08/17/2010
Posts: 3441
Points: 2495
Offline
The hindsight is perhaps they

The hindsight is perhaps they waited another year and then tried to do an S and T or if with Harden they had made a deeper play off run then that would almost pay the luxury tax. But I think it was the long term commitment to 4 players they were concerned about. We have yet to see how the replacement younger players turn out plus the new luxury tax penalties are a lot harsher than the old dollar for dollar ones.

PabloFiasco
PabloFiasco's picture
Registered User
Joined: 07/12/2011
Posts: 287
Points: 305
Offline
I t was a good trade for the

I t was a good trade for the future. OKC got a rookie who will undoubtedly turn into a decent player/trade asset.
KMart was on a one year deal which meant $12 million off the books this summer and a lottery pick for good measure. If you're a GM you take that trade over and over again.

I hope they amnesty Perkins soon to make more space and make a serious move in the offseason

Cynthia
Cynthia's picture
Registered User
Joined: 07/20/2011
Posts: 718
Points: 4169
Offline
6th Man

Why pay max money for a 6th man? He was not going to start this year even if he stayed. If he wanted to start he could have improved his defense and beat out Sefolosha.

In the end it's good for Harden because he gets to start, but for Thunder all they lost was a bench player, it could have been years before Harden got the starting job for all we know.

You people need to stop looking at Harden as an All-Star for the Thunder, because he was a 6th man for the Thunder. In the end they traded a 6th man for a 6th man(12 million off the books), a young gun who could one day be just as good as Harden/Martin or at least very close, and a handful of picks. Sorry but if I'm a GM for the Thunder, I'd say "I win".

llperez
llperez's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/13/2009
Posts: 11913
Points: 11755
Offline
Harden wasn't "just a bench

Harden wasn't "just a bench player". That's like saying all Manu ever Was to San Antonio was just a bench player. Harden played 32 minutes per game and finished games. He allowed for Westbrook to be more aggressive since harden was a capable and willing passer. The thunder had just gotten to the NBA finals and had a trio of stars under 25 who were set to grow together. One positive thing for okc is that I do believe Reggie Jackson has a real bright future as a combo gaurd off the bench.

Cynthia
Cynthia's picture
Registered User
Joined: 07/20/2011
Posts: 718
Points: 4169
Offline
Harden did not start, he came

Harden did not start, he came off the bench; therefore he literally & figuratively was indeed "a bench player". Yes he played 32 minutes but he was still a third wheel. Thunder was never going to utilize him to his potential, they have too much star power on the wings already.

Harden was nowhere near as important to the Thunder off the bench as Ginobili is to the Spurs, Harden has a long ways to go to be considered on Ginobili's level. On top of that it's not even the same situation, Harden sat because his defense wasn't better than Sefolosha's and they didn't need three scorers on the court at the same time, Ginobili sat because he was too wreckless and Popp didn't want him getting injured every game by overplaying him.

As far as because of Harden Westbrook could be more aggressive, is that a joke? Have you ever watched Russell play? He's rabidly aggressive every play no matter who is out there with him.

You did get one thing right though, Reggie Jackson is going to be excellent.

llperez
llperez's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/13/2009
Posts: 11913
Points: 11755
Offline
Nice changing of the words

Nice changing of the words there. I didnt call you out for saying harden was a bench player. I called you out for saying he was "JUST" a bench player as if all bench players are the same. Harden got starters minutes and finished games. He was the best bench player in the NBA last year. And his not starting was not just about defense, it was about Brooks feeling it was better to bring him off the bench as a change of pace player to keep things going after the starters git it going just like Manu is used in San Antonio with better defenders like Bruce Bowen or kawhi Leonard ahead of him to bring defense. Of course harden has a long ways to go to reach manus level, but he is 22 years old and pretty damn close already. And my comment about harden allowing Westbrook to be selfish is that harden would initiate the offense as a primary ball handler and set teammates up so Westbrook could do what he does best which is attack. They complemented each other in that regard. Kevin Martin doesn't do that.

Cynthia
Cynthia's picture
Registered User
Joined: 07/20/2011
Posts: 718
Points: 4169
Offline
Actually if you could read I

Actually if you could read I did not change the words, but you did. I never said "just a bench player". I said "a bench player", you've now tossed in the "just" part yourself twice. I also clearly called him a 6th man multiple times in the post, which indicates I do not view him as "just" a bench player nor that all bench players are alike. You should stop before you make yourself look even more foolish.

llperez
llperez's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/13/2009
Posts: 11913
Points: 11755
Offline
I'm guessing you know a mod

I'm guessing you know a mod or something because I'm certain you said "just"t, I even reread your post a couple times before and after posting my reply to make sure. Plus this thread said 3 new post right now and I only see 2 new posts since last time meaning the third "new" post is an edit. You and I both know you just. But whatever makes you feel better.

Lipstick
Lipstick's picture
Registered User
Joined: 09/21/2012
Posts: 710
Points: 1831
Offline
It will take a few years

It will take a few years before we see who the winner is. It will most likely be Houston, especially if they land Dwight Howard, but Jeremy Lamb and their Toronto pick still need time to pan out for OKC. Maybe they package the two for a serviceable power forward and win a title in the next two years, who knows.

Right now, OKC didn't get the greatest haul for Harden but it wasn't the worst.

jacobkey
Registered User
Joined: 12/31/2008
Posts: 112
Points: 346
Offline
The NBA isn't a fantasy

The NBA isn't a fantasy league. Just because you put a bunch of talented players together doesn't mean you'll have a great team. OKC doesn't need another ball dominate wing, they need low post offense and Ibaka has the potential to fill that need. With the 12th pick they can take a chance on someone like Steven Adams who can develop over time as well.

I can't remember the last time a team with three ball dominate perimeter players won a championship.

Shyhill
Shyhill's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/05/2013
Posts: 53
Points: 32
Offline
You say this as if Westbrook

You say this as if the Westbrook harden Durant trio wasnt going anywhere

NCarmean18
NCarmean18's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/11/2011
Posts: 566
Points: 1314
Offline
My take

Even though James Harden has emerged into a superstar this season in Houston, the Thunder did indeed need to trade him. He got a pretty lucrative offer from the Thunder, but he felt as that he deserved more - a max contract. I don't fault the Thunder for trading him, because they just couldn't afford the expenses as a franchise that would come with retaining him.

The trade that they made was to try and get by this year, and bring in a potential star for the future. They brought in Kevin Martin with his 1-year contract. Now, they knew that Martin would probably only be here for one year, but Martin was a good enough player that the Thunder felt could help them contend for a championship like Harden did the previous year. Even though the Thunder were ousted, it would have been pretty interesting to see what they would have done throughout the rest of the playoffs if Russell Westbrook hadn't gone down. The big chip for the Thunder in this trade was the acquisition of Jeremy Lamb, a rookie shooting guard out of the University of Connecticut. Lamb was a premiere talent, but questionable shot selection and his overall I.Q. made many GMs concerned. However, the Houston Rockets drafted him with the 12th overall selection, and he flourished during the NBA Summer League. He performed at a high level, averaging somewhere around 20 ppg while shooting excellent percentages.

Jeremy Lamb may not ever be a superstar like James Harden was, but he will be a player that can take some of the scoring pressure off of Durant and Westbrook, and he will evolve into quite the running partner with those two for many years to come. The Thunder needed something out of the Harden deal, and the potential that Lamb showed ultimately allowed OKC to pull the trigger.

JNixon
JNixon's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/14/2009
Posts: 12959
Points: 11525
Offline
I promise I still think they

I promise I still think they should've traded Ibaka still to this day...

Tyrober
Tyrober's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/16/2009
Posts: 2884
Points: 7806
Offline
If you are starting a team

If you are starting a team from scratch then I am sure most people would choose Harden over Ibaka, but when you already have Durant and Westbrook you probably aren't going to pick Harden when you can have a big in Ibaka.

SeattleSuperChronics
SeattleSuperChronics's picture
Registered User
Joined: 02/10/2012
Posts: 527
Points: 278
Offline
Whatever I dig harden I

Whatever I dig harden In Houston. They could be one of the best teams to watch if they get Dwight. That would be the most popular team in the world with Jeremy Lin James harden and Dwight Howard. Jeremy Lin I can see playing well with Dwight..like he did with Tyson chandler when melo was out. I like Terrence jones as the 4 in that line up.

Lin
Harden
Parsons
Jones
Howard

Brooks
Robinson
Montiju-whatever

IndianaBasketball
IndianaBasketball's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 12674
Points: 23861
Offline
Dumb trade. James Harden is a

Dumb trade. James Harden is a top 15 player in basketball. People only seemed to remeber his poor performance vs the Heat in the Finals and ignored how he destroyed the Spurs. Plus you can't ignore the chemistry/bond he had with Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook.

I'd have kept Harden and amnestied Perkins.

Cynthia
Cynthia's picture
Registered User
Joined: 07/20/2011
Posts: 718
Points: 4169
Offline
If his bond was so tight with

If his bond was so tight with Durant & Westbrook, you'd think he would have taken 2 mil less to stay with them. He wanted the money & the power, not the chemistry or a championship.

SeattleSuperChronics
SeattleSuperChronics's picture
Registered User
Joined: 02/10/2012
Posts: 527
Points: 278
Offline
They were in the first round

They were in the first round of negotiating....harden was the last person to think a trade was coming.

TallmanNYC
TallmanNYC's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/04/2010
Posts: 2015
Points: 1132
Offline
Ugh, I can't read this crap.

Ugh, I can't read this crap. This was a terrible trade. Harden is now clearly revealed as a top ten player in the league. Many people knew that before this year. But even for the most clueless it wasn't a secret that he was very very good. He made the US Olympic team. That is last season. They paid K Martin $10 million this year when Harden was only $5 million. That difference alone makes up for a good chunk of the salary cap issues. Now K Mart is an unrestricted free agent.

Did Westbrook and Durant have a great year? Yes. Do you think Harden was holding back their development? No! Those guys just got older and got more experience. Harden wasn't a ball hog or a bad locker room presence on OKC. It is ridiculous to suggest that his presence would have made Durant and Westbrook develop slower. They would have gotten better with him.

OP, your post will look even more stupid when K Mart signs with a new team during the off season.

They gave up a franchise player for draft picks. End of story.

And don't give me the craap that a small market team can't flirt with the luxury tax. Sure you can't do that every year. But when you have Durant in his prime, that is when you go all in. Other teams pay high salaries and they don't have the revenue from deep playoff runs year after year. Just making it to the Wester Conference Finals would have collected enough revenue over the course 3 home games to pay for Harden's salary for the entire year. Do you know what tickets for third round playoff games goes for? And we are talking a sell out, no question. Pay the tax for a year or two and go for the Title. If it doesn't work out, they could always have traded Harden to anyone, he is that good.

God, I can't believe anyone is still defending this trade!

Lipstick
Lipstick's picture
Registered User
Joined: 09/21/2012
Posts: 710
Points: 1831
Offline
Constructive criticism at its

Constructive criticism at its finest or something like that.

rabidsnowman
Registered User
Joined: 10/04/2012
Posts: 109
Points: 70
Offline
Complicated issue

The only saving grace for this trade is Jeremy Lamb. Given time, he has a very solid chance of turning into an all-star caliber player.

But Tallman is right...OKC is never going to win a title if they aren't willing to make a push while they have Durant. What kind of message does this send to Durant and Westbrook? We're going to milk you for playoff runs but not provide you with a team that can win it all? What if letting Harden go costs the Thunder Durant in 2016? Or Westbrook in 2017? I know a lot can happen between now and then, but lets not forget, this is exactly what chased LeBron from his hometown team. Can the Thunder win a title with the team they have? Certainly they are not the same team without Harden as they would be with him.

It's not the horrendous mistake some make it out to be, giving up a potential future Hall of Famer for draft picks, but it's still pretty bad, all things considered.

IndianaBasketball
IndianaBasketball's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 12674
Points: 23861
Offline
I'm going to post it again...

I'm going to post it again... Terrible trade!

Sam Presit blew it. He pulled the trigger way too quick! He gave Harden like less than an hour to accept a 4 year $54 million deal. Everyone was shocked.

People say Harden should've sacrificed. Whatever he took with OKC would've been sacrificing because he was worth way more. Harden was arguably a top 15 player in the NBA. And I'm not buying the "they couldn't afford him" excuse.

NYK2010
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 2462
Points: 1498
Offline
Top 15 player before last

Top 15 player before last year no.

BothTeamsPlayedHard
BothTeamsPlayedHard's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/13/2008
Posts: 3417
Points: 4667
Offline
Shhh... don't tell anyone

Shhh... don't tell anyone that Houston spent $24 million on players to go away, dealt three first round picks, and handed out $117 million in long-term deals for Harden, Lin, and Asik to go from being a team that won 52 percent of its games to 55 whereas OKC has a cheap long-term replacement in Jeremy Lamb, an additional cheap body in Toronto's first round pick, and another first rounder in the future. OKC would have been better off investing in Harden than the frontcourt that gets ruined every postseason, but they made their decision. Still, they are still in position to compete for in the West and surround Durant and Westbrook with young players for the foreseeable future. Now, if they run into the Heat in the Finals, the result will be the same, but no outcome would have changed that reality.

TallmanNYC
TallmanNYC's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/04/2010
Posts: 2015
Points: 1132
Offline
Lamb might be bad, he might

Lamb might be bad, he might be average, he might be good and he might be great. Harden is great. Lamb didn't play at all this year. He wasn't cheap. He has two more cheap years. Then contract is over. If he is great, he will cost just about the same as Harden would have cost. So maybe he plays next year and maybe they get two cheap years of him. But they game up a year of harden playing for $5 million. That is as cheap as any contract in the nba.

And don't tell me he wasn't great last year. He made the us Olympic team. Maybe some folks didn't realize how good he was. But that is more your problem than anything else. Your weren't paying attention.

That OKC team had a chance to be a dynasty. They could have had three guys in the top 20 and Ibaka. Amnesty Perkins and your luxury tax issues are done. This trade was a mistake. Lamb needs to become a near all star to save this trade.

Jmpasq
Registered User
Joined: 01/20/2013
Posts: 134
Points: 141
Offline
Did they even try to trade

Did they even try to trade Perkins? U can get Perkins play for 1/4 of the money he is paid. Its part the owners fault to.If they really want to keep Harden they could of used the amnesty on Perkins

theballerway
theballerway's picture
Registered User
Joined: 02/09/2012
Posts: 483
Points: 323
Offline
perkins

Was the one that came out during the negotiation process saying Harden was definately coming back. At the time I posted that he wouldn't be simply because of Perkins contract. I understand that people say he's the Howard stopper or whatever but this guy is a liability and where he's defi lately not getting any better its clear to me that he was and still is the problem. Obviously he's slower and fairly unathletic but at least he could have developed a face up jumper or something. As poor as I aka was in the playoffs he has clearly improved each year and will probably continue to do so

theballerway
theballerway's picture
Registered User
Joined: 02/09/2012
Posts: 483
Points: 323
Offline
perkins

Was the one that came out during the negotiation process saying Harden was definately coming back. At the time I posted that he wouldn't be simply because of Perkins contract. I understand that people say he's the Howard stopper or whatever but this guy is a liability and where he's defi lately not getting any better its clear to me that he was and still is the problem. Obviously he's slower and fairly unathletic but at least he could have developed a face up jumper or something. As poor as I aka was in the playoffs he has clearly improved each year and will probably continue to do so

TallmanNYC
TallmanNYC's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/04/2010
Posts: 2015
Points: 1132
Offline
And they wouldn't have had to

And they wouldn't have had to Amnesty Perkins until this summer, because Harden was only making about $5 million this season. Kendrick's per 36 minute stats are 6.1 points, 8.6 rebounds, and 1.5 blocks. I doubt there is one Center currently in the NBA who is worse at all three of those stats. Actually, if we give Perkins a free pass on Points, you would find it somewhat hard to find many Centers who are worse at both rebounding and blocks. And as for defense, Perkins has little to no ability to guard in space. He is strong and can defend the post against a power post up. But so few teams are attacking like that it just isn't that valuable a skill.

CavFanPR
Registered User
Joined: 04/08/2013
Posts: 578
Points: -1243
Offline
I would rather trade

I would rather trade Westbrook than Harden but that's just me I guess.

rabidsnowman
Registered User
Joined: 10/04/2012
Posts: 109
Points: 70
Offline
The problem there

The main problem with that is that Harden is only a SG...if he has a secondary position it's SF. Sefolosha (sp?) can't run the point. If they traded away Westbrook, they're still tossing a top 15 player for scraps. It wouldn't be any better than dumping Harden, and it leaves the team with a gaping hole in the starting lineup.

They could have amnestied Perkins contract, offered Harden a backloaded contract, and played for the here and now. Go for a title in 2013, 2014, 2015, and then trade somebody when salaries started to become an issue. But constantly reloading a team with prospects makes you into a farm team, not a championship team.

TallmanNYC
TallmanNYC's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/04/2010
Posts: 2015
Points: 1132
Offline
Harden averages about 6

Harden averages about 6 assists per game and is the catalyst for one of the better offenses in the league, so I would hardly say he is "only" a SG. You could easily pair him up with a defensive minded PG and you would have an elite offense. And keep in mind that Durant can initiate an offense pretty much just as well as Westbrook anyway.

But I don't suggest that they trade Westbrook. I think they should have kept everyone and just accepted the Dynasty looking them in their face. Sure they might have paid luxury tax for a few years, but I really think those deep playoff runs should pay for that, easy.

Also I'm a big Harden fan. I think folks are STILL sleeping on him. He should actually get better over the next few years and he is pretty nearly unstoppable already.

RSS: Syndicate content