if kobe the closest to Jordan what kobe weakness? does he have any?
i remember they said MJ couldnt play Defense then he won defense player of year and made so many defense teams. so im wondering since kobe the closest we have now to MJ. what kobe weakness??? if i had to say i can only think bout health but that comes with the game. not to mention he did come straight out of High School. So can anybody think of a weakness in KOBE BRYANT GAME????
That is why I think he and Michael are the two best in NBA history. A big edge I believe Michael had over Kobe was an ability to trust his team mates. That seems to be one of the biggest issues with Kobe. Believe me, I have little problem with Kobe taking all of the shots in the closing minutes for the Lakers. But, a common misconception, I believe, is that Michael did the same. Michael definitely could turn on the heat when the going got tough, and everyone remembers the shot at UNC and his incredible "Last Shot" against Utah, plus the series of plays that preceded it. But, Michael also was not afraid to make the right play, and this tended to pay off incredibly well. John Paxson, Steve Kerr and even Bill Wennington in the infamous double nickel game, all made huge shots for the MJ era Bulls.
Derek Fisher has definitely had his clutch moments, and Ron Artest made some big shots, albeit one of his game winners was off of a Kobe air ball. Still, I do not think Kobe has that same sense of trust with team mates that Michael had with his Bulls. They look up to him as their leader, but I do not think they have the same fear of letting him down that the Bulls had of letting Mike down. Some may call it shot selection, but I think it is more than that.
Otherwise, Kobe has incredibly few weaknesses as a player. He has had his down moments that every player has faced, but he is incredibly strong mentally, he eats, sleeps and breaths basketball. I do not think anyone works harder than him, and if they do, well, they are simply not on his level as far as skill set. His 3 point shooting is not exceptional percentage wise, but it is definitely passable. The major difference between Kobe and Michael, other than circumstances surrounding who they ended up playing with (as Shaq having been the MVP of Kobe's first three championships tends to have people detract from his All-Time ranking) would be percentage shooting from the field. Michael shot 49.7% to Kobe's 45.4%. The differences in FT shooting and 3 point shooting are in Kobe's favor (83.7%-83.5%, 33.9%-32.7%), but not by a whole lot. All of Michael's other statistical categories are well in front of Kobe.
They both had incredibly few weaknesses, and had Kobe been in a different situation, his overall PPG could indeed have been closer to Michael. However, I do not believe he would have those first 3 rings, at the very least. Kobe needed to learn how to trust his team mates, Michael did as well. I think Michael took this level even further, and combined with his individual dominance, won 6 championships as being the best player in the world bar none. Kobe is great, and we will never know who would have gotten the better of a match-up in their prime, but I think it is incredibly hard to say that Kobe was better than Michael, and I think that the leadership factor and overall efficiency of a Michael Jordan is the best way of framing how Kobe Bryant could have possibly been better.
you need a tv show like for real. you need to go on AROUND THE HORN or something. GOOD POINTS and you back it up with STATS!!!
Damn... MikeyV hammered this nail down with authority lol. I'm muted after that.
I signed on just to give you a point.
I appreciate it, as always. Glad to see you are all in relative agreement with that, because it is tough to find real "weaknesses" with both, though they would probably be in some statistical minutiae. Flynt, I am starting to think that I might do youtube video's talking basketball, but that is just a thought process. Still, I really appreciate the props. Indiana, you tend to hit things on the head as well and look at the mental game, you definitely have been someone who has made me step back and think about certain things in terms of mindset and tendencies of players.
Most people do not rank Kobe as the 2nd best player in NBA history, but when you think about in terms of players with the fewest weaknesses, you tend to think Michael and you would have to put Kobe right afterwards. Michael was a man possessed, and I think he had a much different personality than Kobe. Michael was a pretty likeable guy and used it to his advantage, though he also was not afraid to bite your head off. Kobe is seemingly much more introverted and was kind of labelled by many as a lone wolf. I do not see much of a problem with him being that way, people have different personalities, but on the court, you have to be open and communicate. You have to be willing to adapt and comprimise. Jordan was the master of this as a leader and delegator. Kobe did not comprehend it until much later on in his career, and he when the Lakers have lost, a lack of cohesion usually seems to be the major issue.
@yupyup, thanks buddy!
Kobe's weakness? Weakness itself. Weak fingers, weak knees. Mentally he is tough but not as tough as Michael.
The difference between the two is college. I think college under Dean Smith created a sense of humility and discipline within Michael. Kobe has always lacked the continuous discipline that Michael had almost every second he was on the court. Michael was always good for 20, Kobe has those odd games sometimes. Game 7 vs. The Suns (3 shots in the 2nd half) Michael would never. Lose by 40 in a finals game (Boston) Michael would never. Get swept by the Mavs? Not on Mike's watch. Kobe and his teams have had an on/off switch. Michael and his teams kept it on always.
Kobe is the closest guard to Michael but, Russell, Kareem and even Shaq are still ahead of Kobe.
Sup with a serious post... What's the world coming to lol? See... I knew you were really a smart dude!
He will be overshadowed by Shaq's dominance during their 3peat in LA, hurting his legacy. Without Shaq he would only have 2 rings.
I also think that Jordan was a little longer and stronger than Kobe is, maybe more athletic also, he was so incredible attacking the rim, and taking high percentage shots because of how well he used his strenght and vertical.
Earlier in his career Jordan had trouble going to his left...
Wow, I thought I was about to seem smart and write my opinion, then I see MikeyV already finished his essay.
We neede a weekly collumn for MikeyV about the NBA when the season starts, cause reading his posts just makes you smarter. Now reading McBasketballGuru's posts on the otherhand..............................
Much appreciated. Rudeboy, I think Michael and Kobe both had weaknesses earlier in their career, but over time, they became virtually unstoppable with their overall skill set. They were constantly adding to their game, proficient with either hand, developing range on their jump shot and having a post game to go along with their incredible athleticism that allowed them to take defenders off of the dribble. They even, over time, became top defenders at their position. Both were tireless workers, and I can not think of two players who over came their weaknesses to become as dominant as both Michael and Kobe were in their prime.
My Breakdown. Weaknesses RELATIVE to Jordan:
1) Defensive end. Jordan was simply better than Kobe defensively. Kobe has had some dominant defensive years, but he has largely been overrated in that area. I think this is the biggest gap between them. Not saying Kobe's D is bad. Kobe's D is very good, it's just not on Jordan's level. It's hard to judge this with steals and blocks... Jordan played on some of the best defensive teams of all time where the D revolved around him and Pippen. Kobe's lakers were offensive powerhouses, not really defensive teams (they were good defensive teams, but it wasn't their strength).
2) Efficient scoring. Jordan's career eFG is .509. Kobe's is .488. This actually understates the difference in scoring efficiency because they shot a similar 3PT%... but Kobe has shot 3.8 threes per game, whereas Jordan played in an area with less 3s.. he only took 1.6 per game.
3) Rebounding. Jordan was a slightly better rebounder.. 9.4% vs. 8.2% Rebounding percentages.
4) Team leadership. They both had rocky starts in this area. Mike the don covered it.
Bonus: Jordan played in an era where handchecking (and all kinds of other things) were allowed. Hard to know what effect this has exactly. But I believe it makes a difference.
This is a very interesting topic. I really do like where MikeyV took this discussion but I'd like to add my two cents if you guys don't mind...
When comparing Michael and Kobe, one needs to do so in the proper context. Any idiot can look at a statsheet and determine that Jordan is better because of his numbers. One must take into the circumstances in which both players entered into the NBA. Michael Jordan, much like LeBron James in 2003, was drafted and immediately given the keys to an ailing franchise and had the responsibilty of putting up big numbers very early on in his career.
Kobe, on the other hand was a late lottery draft pick who was selected by a team loaded with offensive talent, and had to pay his dues, not becoming a starter till his third season, which was then shortened by a lockout. One must also take into account that Kobe had to struggle to co-exist with the most dominant center of his generation, something Jordan would know absolutely nothing about since he was established as the man in Chicago since Day 1. Jordan enjoyed more favorable circumstances to produce the numbers he did.
Now let's compare both men as players...
Let me start off by saying that Kobe is the most skilled player in NBA history. That includes Jordan too. He is a better shooter (especially off the dribble) and while their midrange games are simlar, Kobe's jumpshot has far more range than Jordan's. Kobe's a superior ballhandler, possesses greater footwork, and has a much wider array of offensive moves, which largely makes him unpredictable. Kobe has almost no offensive tendencies. He can score the ball in every single way imaginable. Whether it be a deep three, a pull-up from 18 feet, a midrange pump fake/turnaround fadeaway over either shoulder, a floater in the lane with two hands in his face, a baseline reverse layup, or on a good day, he might just split the double team, make it all the way the cup and dunk the ball. With Kobe the possibilities are limitless.
With Jordan, (especially later in his career) you always knew what he was going to do. He was much more of a "free throw line extended" type of player who mainly did his damage from 12 to 18 feet. He'd simply cut towards the ball or come off scripted screens within the Triangle offense and fire midrange jumpers with lazer-like precision or he'd post his defender up (preferably towards the baseline) and fire off one of is tradmarked fadeway jumpers over either shoulder. You always had a good idea of what he was going to do but he was just so good that it made little difference. I've always believed that Michael was most creative once he left his feet and became airborne, not when he when he was grounded. They do refer to him as "His Airness" after all.
Most of you will quickly point out to the discrepancy in career field goal percentage, and career points per game. While those are valid points, I think they have a lot more to with shot selection and circumstance, rather than a discrepancy in skill. Kobe has attempted about 2,500 more three pointers than Jordan, who played in an era where few athletic shooting guards spent much time behnd the three point line. This has no doubt significantly impacted the discrepancy between both players in the overall FG% department. It is also a well known fact that while Kobe is probably the best "impossible shot maker" ever, he has one of the worst shot selections of any player in history. I love Kobe but ever since I can remember, you could always count on him to take at least 4-5 moronic shots a game. Given Kobe's shot selection, i'm pleasantly surprised that his career field goal percentage is at 45.4%. As far as the career PPG, I would argue that from a purely statistical perspective, Jordan had a far opportunities to become an elite scorer. The Chicago Bulls franchise was placed on his shoulders since Day 1, while Kobe would have to wait till 2000-01 (his fifth season) before he had the opportunity to put up elite offensive numbers and spent about half of his prime joined at the hip with Shaq, something which I strongly believe held him back statistically. But enough about that.
On to Jordan...
Let me begin by saying that Jordan was easily the superior athlete of the two, making him the more naturally talented player. He possessed bigger hands to go along with a stronger frame that allowed to do certain things that Kobe simply could not. Jordan was also a better and more consistent defender than Kobe (but remember that Jordan was allowed to handcheck, something that was banned in 1999). However, I feel that the biggest difference between both men was intangibles. Like MikeyV previously mentioned, one of the biggest things that seperates both men lies in their respective trust of their teammates. I love that point and would like to add to it...
I believe that Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time and a greater player than Kobe for one main reason. Both Michael's and Kobe's greatest strengths were their unsatible competitive desire and their sheer will to win. However, that very competitive desire is also Kobe's greatest weakness because it can often lead him to be self-destructive and in turn, lead him to negatively affect his team. Unlike Michael, Kobe has never mastered that very delicate balance between taking over and deferring to his teamates, and that has caused him to fail in crucial moments whereas Michael seldom did.
While I think Michael is the superior player, there are some things that Kobe simply does better than him, and I just wish more people would acknowledge it. He's one of the top 6 or 7 players to ever play the game and I think it's time to stop always comparing him to Jordan and just appreciate him for the player he is.
This is just my opinion folks, I just hope it makes sense to somebody lol.
Well done, man. I agree with a lot of what you said, though I will state that no matter how it is done, a better field goal percentage at the end of the day is usually a very good thing. Good point about Kobe taking more three pointers, and I agree that the level of difficulty of Kobe's makes may be more than any other player in history. Still, I think, as you said, his shot selection could use some work. They did come in to different situations, but I feel that circumstance tends to make or break a persons legacy. Truly, if Kobe had worked things out with Shaq, or had beaten Boston in 2008, we might see him in a different light. I do not think anyone will beat Michael Jordan's career scoring average, so it is not about that. More so it is about being the best and leading your team to greatness. What people tend to agree on with Michael is that not only did he win 6 rings, but he did so as the best player on the planet bar none. Kobe had a long reign as the best player, or damn close to the best player in the league, but I feel he only really showed that during these last two championships. Maybe that is Shaq taking something away from him, but I think that Michael Jordan had a reign of dominance on basketball that the sport has never seen.
Here is something I wrote quite a while ago, just kind of showing my opinion on who I felt should have won the MVP, rather than who was awarded the MVP. The MVP award used to be a lot less political and quite often was given to the most outstanding player rather than, per se, a talented player who had yet to win the award or was having one of their better seasons. If we took this emotion out of the award and focused on giving it to the flat out best player in that season, I think this would be a possible result of what the MVP might have looked like through the years:
I will say that while this was posted in January 2011, I made this list at least a year or so before, but I could not find my original post, so I guess we will have to make due with this one, lol.
Can we agree Kobe is the better weak side defender?
Kobe actually made quite a few trusting drive and dishes or drive and scoops for game winners earlier in his career. Fisher Horry, Fox and Shaw are all players who Kobe helped numerous times. May not have always been game winners, but he made the game winning pass withing a minute or so. To me it's not always about making the pass that leads to the game winner, but sometimes the pass the breaks the game open and makes it a win within a minute or so.
Not to mention they played in different eras. michael played in an era where teams shot higher percentage and scored more while being dominanted by elite Forwards and Centers. Kobe has for the most part played in an era lacking many elite big men but, a plathora of elite guards. Not to mention the league average for ppg and percentages is down this era as well. Sometimes, you've gotta look past skills and such and look at league averages and time periods too.
Personally I think Kobe would have been better in the handcheck era as opposed to the zone era. For the most part in the zone era it was one on one D and the guy guarding MJ was usually closer to 6-4 180 than 6-6 220. Not to mention even in this era where Kobe CONSISTENTLY gets guarded by 2-3 defenders at all times(save for this past year), he still gets pushed and fouled on the perimeter quite a bit. Handchecking may be gone, but I've seen a lot of no names get famous off being allowed to rough Kobe up without ever being called for anything.
I guess it's just one of those debates that will go on forever. Hell, who knows, perhaps in 20 years Kobe will be the new G.O.A.T to youbng kids and people will be talking about how MJ played in a different era. Personally, there's always a new g.o.a.t for every generation, and I don't think it ends at MJ. Even if the next person mentioned as the G.O.A.T. isnt Kobe Bean Bryant.
It's worth noting that the 2000s were arguably the weakest decade in the modern era in terms of championship-level competition. Teams like the 49-win Nets making two finals in a row, that abhorrent Spurs-Cavs finals, and while I don't want to belittle those Pistons teams that consistently made the conference finals, they wouldn't have scraped a single conference finals against Isaiah's Pistons, who played sterling defense in addition to boasting a variety of hall of fame offensive weapons.
The teams that Jordan overcame - Magic's Lakers, Drexler's Blazers, Barkley/KJ's Suns, Payton's Sonics and those 64-win Jazz teams were far tougher than anyone Kobe toppled. As far as finals teams are concerned, 35-year old Reggie Miller's Pacers, the AI-dominated 6ers and the Nets are comparably weak, and the Magic simply had no shot that year.
But yes, those 2009 Celtics were tough, I'll give Kobe that.
Or 2008 Celtics that he lost too. I get your point though, but it is tough to blame Kobe for his Finals opponents being weak in 4 of the 7 he won (The Celtics were tough both in 2008 and 2010, plus that Pistons team was incredibly well put together). I feel that while Michael played some great players in the Finals, they did not exactly blow away the opposition with their supporting casts. He played Magic and Worthy, with Sam Perkins, Byron Scott and a second year Vlade Divac. A good team, but the Bulls had superior depth and length. The Blazers had athleticism with Clyde, Porter and Kersey, not to mention Buck Williams and Kevin Duckworth, but no one could defend Michael. Portland indeed might have been the deepest team he faced. The Suns had Barkley, Kevin Johnson and Dan Majerle, even Danny Ainge but they also had two rookies playing major roles in Richard Dumas and Oliver Miller, plus an over the hill Tom Chambers. The Bulls had them killed in length.
Even the Sonics and Jazz, who had fantastic regular season records and memorable point and power duos in Payton/Kemp and Stockton/Malone, had only decent supporting casts. The Sonics had Schrempf, Hawkins and Perkins, but they had no depth at big man. Nate McMillan was a great defender, but the Bulls team had superior weapons and depth. It was a 6 game series, but you never really felt like the Bulls were in danger of losing it. They had a giant Aussie Center in Luc Longley, who was not great, but was huge. Dennis Rodman was a defensive master who owned the boards, Toni Kukoc was coming off the bench. Michael was the best player, but he had a pretty damn awesome team, especially considering the lack of depth he faced in Seattle and the even more shallow bench of Utah. Hornacek, Bryon Russell and Greg Ostertag were not exactly driving fear into peoples souls. One thing I can say, is that Jordan never faced three HOF caliber players like the 2008 and 2010 Celtics had, in the Finals. Those guys may have been past their relative primes, but no team Michael faced in the Finals had 3 legends of that caliber, or 4 All-Stars. Just something to counter the whole "Kobe did not face the same comp as Jordan" argument.
I still feel like Michael Jordan's career will be hard for anyone to beat. Maybe it is the fact that the only person who could take away his career scoring average record would be himself if he decides to come back when he is 50 (a friend of mine is convinced this is happening, though I am not so much). It could be that no one ever seemed to carry a team to titles like he did for his 6 Bulls teams. He won a ton of games and played huge in big moments. He had his moments of being less than great, but they are far outweighed by his incredible play during 6 NBA Finals wins and in other huge moments. He played against some great players, but when he was at his best, all you could talk about was who the second best player in the league was. Their was no debate who was at the top. By the time Michael retired the first time, he had done enough to be considered by just about everyone, to be the greatest basketball player that ever lived. Maybe in a parallel universe, with Kobe being drafted into a different situation where he was expected to carry a team, Kobe might have accomplished close to what Michael had over his career. Maybe their will be a player who at a time in their career, could have been better than Michael Jordan comparatively. But, on career as a whole, I do not think that Michael Jordan is going to be surpassed. It could happen, but if you were to write the ultimate story book career of individual combined with team dominance in basketball, it is about Michael Jordan.
i think the best part for me when i was watching jordan is that even if you knew his moves, if he was gonna post up on and you knew a fadeaway was coming... players still couldn't stop it lol..
jordan and kobe had weaknesses but they're competitiveness wouldn't let them settle. any weaknesses they had..they worked hard to develop their games to make them non-exisitant. both of them also adapted their games to their age. the way they learned how to play smarter sets themseleves apart from other wing players
One think that will always plague Kobe is the "Shaq Factor". When Jordan won his rings he was without question 100% the best player on his team. Kobe on the other hand won the first 3 with Shaq. Can you say without a doubt that Kobe was the best player on his team during that time? My answer is no. Shaq was. That's why I believe that's Kobe's biggest weakness although it isn't nescesarily an in game weakness. It is purely argumentitive.
I totally agree that MJ and Kobe have extremelly similar skill sets. When trying to separate their differences, its easy to go to the stats, but I like to compare the 2 of them based on what I've seen over the courses of their respective careers. Over a decade and a half of Kobe, I say to myself -- Incredible skills on both ends, great basketball IQ and a winner. With MJ over his career I say to myself -- Incredible skills on both ends, great basketball IQ and a winner, and.....WOW I CAN'T BELIEVE HE JUST DID THAT. And I'd say that over and over and over, until the end of his career. Kobe Bryant is exceptional at everything he does, Michael Jordan just makes you go wow that much more often. For me, that's the biggest difference.
It's hard not to imagine LBJ getting a few rings before everything is said and done. He put up great stats last season even with the other big 2. I know we all dislike the fact he said he was going to win 6 or 7 rings or however many it was. MIA made the finals this past year after only one season together. I can't see them doing worse so that means more finals and they'll have to get it right a couple times. Attitude aside the guy is skilled beyond comparision.
@MJBrown- I actually disagree. I personally think Kobe makes you say wow i can't believe he just did that far more often. Whether it being a game winner with 3 in his face, a clutch shot over the backboard(he's done this several times), purposely missed shots so that he can get his own rebound for the tip in or just a stupid shot that he had no business taking(whether he made it or not).
BTW, little known fact about Kobe's jumpshot practice routine. As everyone knows Kobe is quite the accomplished player from the perimeter being able to power through some strong and-1's on jumpers. Wel in practice, some of the coaching staff has mentioned before that when Kobe practice's his jumpers, he has then run at him and PUROSELY slam him hard so that he can get the natural feel of body blows while keeping his form the same.
BTW, people are really underestimating Kobe's D, he may not have the individual accolades that MJ did, but neither did Pippen and I wholee heartedly believe he was a better defender. Kobe was able to lockdown the Point, SG, or the 3's. Mike lockdown some terrific players in his day, but so hs Kobe. DWade locked down, T-Mac, VC, Nash in the playoffs vs. Dallas. Countless names. Hell, even in the 08 finals the biggest reason LAL lost was because they didn't have anyone who could guard Pierce or Allen besides Kobe. He started on Allen and Pierce ate Luke up, he got on Pierce and shut him down and all of a sudden Allen started going off. Kobe in his prime had the quickest feet laterally that I had ever seen in the entire time I've watched basketball. Even to this day with his abundatly diminished athleticism he's still got some rather quick feet laterally. IMO, MJ was mildly overrated defensively. Usually Pip guarded a player for most of the game and wore them out and allowed Jordan to save his dominant D for one quarter.
PJ and Kobe have both mentioned before that since Kobe came into the L he's had to play to his weaknesses never being allowed to play to his strengths. Everyone thihnk sthat because kobe has been a primary ballhandler over his career that he needs the ball to be effective when it's actually the exact opposite. LAL needed someone who could create for Shaq and hide his weaknesses, so kobe learned to become a facilitator instead of scorer. Just like MJ needed Pip to allow him to go off-ball as a scorer where he truely flourished(wins not stats), Kobe has allows longed for the same, but has yet(and probably will never) to get this. BTW, not sure who said it, but I mostly certainly agree that Kobe has far more ways to score than ANYBODY has. There is just no tendencies there. He watches tape so much and learns people's games and moves so often that he has such a deep bag of tricks to throw at yah that you just never know what's coming next.(save for his 15 pump fakes into a jumper which somehow people STILL fall for)
I still think MJ is the Greatest, but I don't think the gap is really that far a margin.
Some of these comments are so far fetched... yes Kobe is one of the greatest players of all time and still a top player in the NBA today, but the gap between him and MJ is still a pretty nice size. Kobe's a better shooter, but thats about it. Jprdan's a much better defender and clutch performer. Kobe had a couple of great defensive seasons and people label him as a lockdown defender. I was trying not to comment on this post, but some of this stuff is just giving Kobe a little too much credit. Certain comments, such as him having to co-exist with Shaq and playing in the the no- handcheck era hurt him... HOW? playing with Shaq helped him greatly! it opened him up, made it much easier for him. Shaq was doubled and tripled team almost every possession... those are benefits for Kobe. That helped him be successful. Jordan played in an era where he was allowed to handcheck. Valid point. However, Jordan was also allowed to BE HANDCHECKED. So how is that a benefit of his scoring. Jordan had talent around him. But he didnt have any players that demanded double or triple teams that could get him open. Im sure you all saw the infamous interview where Phil Jackson compared MJ and KOBE. He said the era which Jordan played in was much tougher and more physical and that if Jordan played in this era that KOBE PLAYS in, JORDAN would average 60. Im not saying any of this to knock anyone's thoughts, but you cant take stuff that actually benefits kobe's success and try to use it as an obstacle.
Another belief that I have is that since Kobe didnt have to come in right away and carry the team, such as Bron and MJ, it helped him develop also. He had less pressure on him to be the man, he had veteran guards like eddie jones and cedric ceballos that he was able to learn from, while Jordan and Bron both came in, being the face of an enitre organization and had to learn on-the-go. Nonetheless, Kobe is still one of the greatest players ever
I dont think anyone can say it better than MikeyV....the MAJOR difference is MJ trusted his players more....or better yet, let me rephrase....Kobe trusted his teammates less. That is the major difference in their NBA careers.
As far as development, Jordan's college days gave him the advantage. Under the Dean, two things any guard has to learn how to do to some degree, ballhandling and defense. You saw it with Shammond Williams, an unwanted player coming out of high school who made it to the next level....you saw it with Vince Carter, who although he was a top 5 HS player, he was very raw coming to college, was pretty much an athlete. Take Jordan who came to UNC already having better fundamentals and polish....he just had to learn a few things from the master. With that being said, the difference in the two as far as fundamentals and stats is MJ had a better IQ.....thus allowing him to create much easier scoring opportunities and easier buckets....resulting in the higher FG% I believe.
I am usually torn in my belief of who was the greater offensive player. With the eye test alone I always go with Kobe. But....with no handchecking....that has to be taken into heavy consideration and MJ couldve scored even more than he did.
The Gap? If you are comparing them as two shooting guards, offensive players, etc...there may not be as much of a gap. If you are talking all-time great, that gap is a little wider between them because Magic had more noticable weaknesses than both of them but on the court, all time.....I will always say that the gap between Michael and Magic is razor thin to me. Kobe....is a few slots back on my all time list, probably in the 7-10 range.
@surve - Nice to see you posting again. Haven't seen you in a few weeks it seems. Anyway, I must say that no one is taking into account that while handchecking may be "illegal" now, Kobe still gets it consistently done to him. Not to mention MJ NEVER had 2-3 guys guarding him at once throughout a single game. During the 08 finals the C's CONSISTENTLY had 2-3 guys focus on him at once and allowed the rest of the team to trfy and win themselves. Unfortunately only Vujacic stepped up(albeit one game) beside of Kobe. Anyone who honestly thinks that even MJ would have beaten them are fooling themselves. MJ could dribble, but he didn't have the handle Kobe's got and, that was trouble getting into the lane that year. I agree that MJ would play better without handchecking, but people don't realize that Kobe would be FAR better in MJ's era of being guarded one on one by guys who are 6-4 185. Please people, think about the logic here.
"MJ's era of being guarded one on one by guys who are 6-4 185. Please people, think about the logic here."
Dominique Wilkins: 6'7
Glenn Robinson: 6'7
Glenn rice: 6'7
Nick Anderson: 6'6
Larry bird: 6'8
Magic johnson: 6'8
Michael Cooper: 6'5
Chris mull in: 6'8
Mich Richmond: 6'5
Bernard king: 6'8
Reggie miller: 6'7
Mark agguire: 6'6
Jordan wasn't guarded by even half of those people. Just because you can name some players in the same era doesn't make it correct. Miller was a HORRID defender and has always been listed as the worse defender between he and his SISTER. Worthy, King, Wilkins, Hill, Mashburn, Mullins(horrible defender), Rice and robinson all guarded Pippen. You Literally listed all the big name players from teams and left the sub sized players who were ACTUALLY guarding MJ off. BTW, a few of those guys weren't even playing at a high level until Jordan's later years.
Hersey Hawkins, Bryon Russell, Jeff Hornacek, Byron Scott/Michael Cooper, Drexler,Ainge/Majerle. Now do you really think those guys are better at playing D than the guys Kobe got D'd up by to win the titles.
Tony Allen,Ray Allen,Ruben Patterson, Jalen Rose/Reggie Miller,Jason Kidd/Kerry Kittles, Mickael Pietrus/Courtney Lee, Raja Bell/Aaron Mckie/Eric Snow,
You sound like a Kobe rider. The 90s knicks and early 90s pistons teams were some of the greatest defensive teams of all time. And 2-3 people never guarded Jordan? Jordan Rules sound fimilar? Anybody that plays basketball knows defense isnt a one on one thing its a TEAM thing...
Edit: You constantly hear people say it help to make the other player work hard on both ends I dont see anybody you named making Kobe work hard on the defensive end....Dont say Reggie or Ray both were older and he checked Rondo in the finals who you guessed it doesnt score
thanks Iguapops, I have been busy lately but glad to be back. Here is the problem I have, and I have gotten blasted on other forums and blogs for this before, but just because people compare Kobe to MJ doesnt necessarily make them a Kobe rider. I for one am not a Kobe rider and I dont think iguapops is either, but whenever someone says something about MJ that may seem critical or in comparison, its deemed as sacriligious....blastphemous almost. Because he is the GOAT, not many fans are labled as MJ riders.
I brought up the fact about the height of the guards and forwards in MJ's era as compared to today's players and some clown said that the average player height back then was taller than now. Note he said "player" height. Which is probably true, because you had guys like Bol, Muresan, Eaton, Rollins, and a bunch of other 7'footers. The guards were noticably shorter than today however. Actually, its more parity, guys like Durant and Donte Greene have suited up at guard and play mostly at SF but they are the same height damn near as guys like Dwight Howard, Al Horford, etc... the wings today are taller and the centers arent as towering.
billyk....that list is...well, Idk wtf it is...are those the players you said were checking jordan??? Bird? You know Bird couldnt check Jordan...it was probably DJ who pulled duty the most and as great a defender as a guy like DJ was, he was an athletic/physical mismatch against MJ. When MJ and Glide came in, that was a pivotal shift in the culture of the league as far as prototype SGs. They were tall, athletic, one on one guys who could shoot and handle. Most of the players you named, not only didnt guard MJ but they were not very good defenders.
I still say an argument can be made for Kobe being the better offensive player, but its difficult because MJ's IQ and midrange game really is 2nd to none. Kobe has incredible range though and that wouldve been in his favor in MJ's era.
Again, when you mention Jordan rules, I have to echo off of mikeyv's sentiments....Kobe didnt have as much trust in his teammates when he was the 1st option. Kobe couldnt have done it without Shaq but as a 1st option, Kobe never had a Pippen. Pau is a good 2nd option but he is no where in the strasphere of Pippen's level. Pip was a LBJ type or Grant Hill in his prime type player. There was always Jordan and Pippen, after the Shaq era, it was Kobe and the gang.
also...not just talking about NBA Finals, but what about Conference Finals when speaking of defenders. Cavs did one of the dumbest moves ever when they traded Ron Harper, a proven scorer and excellent defender with size for Danny Ferry, a guy who was getting torched overseas by Bob McAdoo who was 39 years old (16 years Ferry's senior). I know you guys may not think much of this but Harper was one of the few threats or challenges to MJ had he remained on the Cavs. Instead, he was sent to a losing team in the Western Conference. The Cavs were right there with the Bulls, remember that last second shot? Who could forget? Who was checking MJ? Craig Ehlo. The Cavs royally screwed their team over long before LBJ got there. The postseason is about match ups and Harper couldve been that difference because he was the same size as MJ and was a great defender at that time. Not to mention, Harper was averaging around 22-23ppg IIRC. We saw how matchups killed the Jazz when the speed of Smith and Maxwell was too much for Stockton and Hornacek to deal with. I am not saying the Cavs wouldve came out of the east, but a person like MJ doesnt become the GOAT by just being MJ alone, there are many variables. Again, I do think that there is some distance between MJ and Kobe, particularly now because I think MJ was a better player late in his career than Kobe is....many attribute this to the mileage on Kobe and the break MJ had for baseball. To reiterate the post topic...if there is a weakness in Kobe, its his IQ and somewhat lack of trust in teammates....although as a 1st option he has never quite had the talent around him as MJ.
I was old enough to watch Jordan play from 88 til he retired and I can say in some fashion or another all those players had a crack at Jordan.. I have personally watch all of those players try to guard Jordan.. Larry Bird was actually a very good man defender within the defensive concept the the 80's Celtics employed...
Dominique and Jordan has went head to head a few times
Ive seen Glenn Robinson try to check Jordan
Glenn Rice has had a crack
Ive seen Jordan shiiiit on Sprewell
Nick Anderson has always played pretty good D on Jordan
Magic had a few cracks in the 91 Finals
Cooper was a specialist that guarded Jordan
Jordan said match Richmond was one of the. Hardest players to guard
Miller v Jordan well documented
Mark agguire was a player off the bench Detroit used to slow Jordan
I'm tired of typing, these big guards and small towards have all guarded Jordan one time or another because the.y don't guard him exclusively that doesn't mean they haven't tried.. Also I personally think that there was more of an emphasis on team defense and physical play in the 80's - early 90's.. Players were more sound defensively and not to mention Jordan played in a era littered with HOF centers that were elite shot blockers (mourning,Mutumbo,oneal,Ewing,olajwon,robinson)
everybody chiping in on a FLYNT FLOSSY post!!!
Forget about Kobe and Mj its hard to find a weakness in Mikey's posts! Good job there, I honestly hate to say Kobe is the 2nd best player ever...but you just made it very difficult to argue the fact.
first off, im as big a kobe fan on here.
secondly jordan is the goat and rightfully so.
now to my honest unbiased opinions comparing the two. ANd for the record i started watchign nba around 1991 and became a die hard fan during the 1992-93 season. I have also watched countless videos and read up from the 80's NBA.
My honest opinion is that jordan and kobe are equals as basketball players. I truly do fell that they are just as good as each other.
Here's what jordan has going for him over kobe:
the game has evolved and it was not as athletic in the 80's/90's. I dont care what people say about hand checking, go back and watch games, hand checking didnt have much impact at all. In fact most guys didnt put their hands on opponents any more then they do today. It is still allowed to put your hands on opponents today, but only if they have thier back to you. If they face you up, then it has to be one hand with the elbow not locked or a forearm. But if you watch games from the 80's, there wasnt much more then that going on anyways. Then once you factor in that the defenders were not as quick, it really is a wash. Go ahead and try and hand check prime iverson and see how far that gets you. It should also be noted that everyb ody loves to give jordan offesnive credit for playing in the handchecking era but then compltely ignore the fact he was defending slower less athletic wings while allowed to handcheck and then talk about how much greater he was at defense as if the hand checking was irrelevant, thats call a double standard.
Now for offense. Kobe can do everything jordan did. Kobe is a better ball handler, perimter shooter, better at hitting crazy contested shots. THeir post games are about the same. Passing is about the same. I actually think kobe is a better passer and has more highlight reel passes while jordan was the more willing passer and was less selfish thus making this a tie.
The advantages jordan does have is that he won, plain and simple. There are many things you can hold against kobe. He strougled in the 2004 finals vs detroit. He strougled in the 2008 finals vs boston(both amazing defensive teams). Jordan's only finlas matchup vs an elite defender is when gary payton locked him up 1996. George karl admitted he made a mistake not putting payton on jordan in games 1-3 when the bulls took a 3-0 lead. He then switched payton onto jordan starting in game 4 and jordan went for 24ppg on 36% shooting the last 3 games. DOnt tell me bryon russell was a great defender cause he wasnt.
Keep in mind for the greatest player to ever play, you would think his team would fall off big time when they lost him. But after winning the 1993 title, the bulls replaced jordan with pete myers. Myeres was a career 5ppg role player and argubaly the worst starting sg in the nba in 1993-94 taking jordans spot. There were no other significant changes to the team. You would think it would be a major struggle for the bulls without the goat right? Not quite. They won 55 games and advanced to the second round of the playoffs losing a very close series with the knicks. They were one of the best teams in the league minus jordan and with only a scrub taking his spot.
Kobe on the other hand had to deal with playing with a prime shaq that took a lot of his shine away as an individual talent. But people unestimate what kobe meant to those first 3 titles. In fact, as weak as the east was during those first 3 titles, it was widely considered the best team was decided in the western finals where the lakers had to face some very tough portland(2000) san antonio(2001) and sacramento(2002) teams. Kobe was the one making all the plays down the stretch of games. In the 2000 he clearly outplayed shaq in the decisive game 7 vs portland getting 25pts, 11reb's and 7 assists to shaq's 18pts, 9reb's and 4 turnovers. ANd in 2001 shaq was outscored by kobe and pretty much outplayed by him in every way throughout the series. In 2002 of the western finals kobe got 30 points 10 boards 7 assists in the decisive game 7 and didnt turn it over once. Shaq got his recognition dominating the finals but kobe had every bit as much reason for getting them there at all.
Then there is the whole legendary guy who did it first thing jordan has over kobe. Jordan was there first and he was there right when the whole marketing machine of the nba was just taking off. He was the first guy with all the endorsements. The first guy that as a perimter player really fine tuned his overall game. He didnt settle with being just a shooter as a sg, he worked on his completye game and raised the bar for everyone. No one else back then was doing that. GUys seemed fine with having weaknesses in their games. Jordan said if you want to be the best you got have it all. Now days, guys like kobe, wade and lebron copy that idea left by jordan of being complete but they wont ever get the credit for doing it that jordan go t cause he did it first.
ANyways, i have plenty more to say onthe issue but will leave it at jordan left a much stronger legay and impression on the league and has the succes on the court to back himself up as the goat and that probably wont change for quite some time even if i do feel better players will come along and kobe is as close as that gets for now.
@perez, I'd actually been wondering when you were going to chime i on this argument. i was wondering what you had to say on the subject, because I know you're a BEAN fan and have openly called MJ Goat, as have I. 2 of my favs of all time.
@surve. Really good breakdown those last 2 posts man. You actually cracked me up with that comment about the list lmao.
good points. people love MJ so much that its hard for them to even digest comments suggesting that someone is even close to him in stature. he is the GOAT, but for people to think that he is light years away from Kobe or there is this Grand Canyon type gap, I just dont think they know anything about basketball....or....they probably didnt see both players play. I am 40 years old and I saw MJ from when he came to UNC til he retired, and I saw Kobe's entire career so I think we are qualified to give educated opinions.
say what you want, but having a crack and being a consistant defensive opponent is different. iquapops wasnt talking about who got a "crack" at MJ, he was talking about the consistent top level defenders that they each had to go through. as for your list, Kobe would abso-phuckin-lutely chit on damn near everyone you named. Glen Rice? Magic? uhh...Mark Aguirre??? you cant be serious. Magic although he has a claim to be the GOAT in my book, was 6'9" and didnt have Durant type athleticism. Magic didnt guard Isiah IIRC, Byron Scott did. Scott guarded MJ mostly because he was closer in size and athleticism to MJ than Magic. Dominique although the premiere athelete at that time, maybe even moreso than MJ, was not a focused defensive player. No one you named was near the defensive level of Metta World Peace...lol. That is one of the few guys who can even claim to have good one on one success against Black Mamba.
^^^ Exactly what I was trying to say. You hit the nail on the head surve.
Agreedd, and even Metta got busted up in his latter years. Surprisingly, Kobe stated earlier in his career that Steve Blake was one of the tougher defenders her ever faced. I doubt that's the same now though. IMO, 2 of the better defedners Kobe has faced were Tayshaun Prince and James Posey, and both of those guys defensive success came with a PERFECT team D concept of playing him with a long/tall defender and having a versatile big who could get out on the perimeter as a secondary defender and then having a 3rd defender(usually another big) meet him at the foul line. Detroit and Boston were literally the ONLY teams I've seen trouble Kobe like that. And like I said previously, I think MJ wou;d have had the exact same issues. With both of those teams, it wasn't about the fact that Kobe wasn't able to get it done, it was the fact his shooters weren't hitting allowing those 2 teams to pack their entire defensive focus on him and contesting shooters. AlsoLuke Walton guarding Rasheed Wallace in the post had something to do with it.
I don't really get your post. First you say Jordan is rightfully the GOAT, then you say Kobe is his equal, and than you pretty much say Kobe is as good or better at most everything offensively (passing, shooting, handling, tough shots were your examples), meant more to his team and bashed Jordan's competition. The only credit you gave to Jordan was how he did it first and that he won. You called Jordan the GOAT then basically discredited him.
@yupyup, i did bash him becasue people bring up how he is superior to kobe as well as every other player to have ever played so i brought him down a notch. I also said that his biggest advantages were winning, having fewer poor performances on the big stages and the fact he came first and thus left a longer lasting legacy. I could bash kobe as well but since nobody is giving him the credit of being on jordans level, i switched it around and brought reality(or at least from my perspective reailty) about how jordan is not as perfect as people think.
and it actually says a lot about how good jordan is that i have to bash him just to bring him down to everyone elses level. But i stand by everything i said. If kobe played his prime years 20 years ago and didnt have to go through a complete team rebuilding process while in his prime, and jordan played to day vs todays comp, things might be seen a differently with everyone considering kobe the goat. I just think those two players are very close in terms of abilities and skill jordan just has the edge interms of accomplishments thus is the goat.
Obviously Kobe plays against more athletic wing players, but Jordan played against players with higher IQs, more fundamentally sound, and he played in an era of DOMINANT ELITE Hall of Fame centers.. The point I was making about Jordan was that he played against players bigger than him, I dont think Artest could guard Jordan, he would bury Tony Allen in the post, he would toast Lebron, Durant would stop Jordan??? I pretty much think Jordan in his prime would have his way against any player Kobe has played against...
Jordan has played against some ELITE defensive teams in his era: 88 Pistons, Early 90's Knicks, Payton's Sonics, Trailblazers where an underrated defensive team, The point is Jordan played against superior competition and dominated... Kobe might have a so called superior skill but the thing that sets Kobe and Jordan apart is efficiency.. Plus Jordan is 6-0 in the Finals...
yeah, MJ is 6-0 in the finals, but thats the only amount o time he got there. It's a lot easier to lose in the finals when you make it there literally half of your career like Kobe has. You my friend are obviously an MJ nut hugger and ppl like you have no place in a real conversation about greater talent because you have a bias and are close minded. Not to metnion probably 14 and never even saw a prime MJ save for highlight vids on youtube.
BTW those 80's Pistons team you mentioned, were the same Pistons MJ never could get through until age caught up to them. The sonics were good, but Hersey Hawkins (6'3 180 lbs) guarded MJ when they went up 3-0. MJ then began having trouble once The Glove clamped down on him. BTW, it's a matter of opinion on who had the better IQ's. As for efficiency, Kobe every game has to take AT LEAST 5 bail out shots because the tri became stagnant with everybody sitting around not making a move(i.e. cuts spaceing or hard post up attempts) thus causing Kobe to have to jack up far more late shot clock attempts. He also AGAIN, has consistently had 2-3 defenders guarding him his whole career. MJ NEVER had that whether people want to admit it or not. Funny how every big shot you see he's being guarded 1 on 1 by guys like Russell and Ehlo. You think a team these days would EVER play Kobe one on one late in a game?
BTW, surve said ti already, but Kobe has NEVER had the same kind of help since becoming 1st option that MJ had.; Pau is good, but Pip was that much better. Hell, Kobe has never even had a player as good as BJ Armstrong on the perimeter to help him. His Pippen has been freeaking Fisher for most of his careers. MJ being taken off ball and not asked to create as much for himself and allow Pippen to do the facilitating was what made MJ become a winner. Kobe has always had to play the role of Pippen and Jordan.; You can read Phil Jackson say that himself in The Last Stand. He also was quoted as saying that Kobe was better at hitting the crazy shots that make you say WTF, how did he hit that.
"As for efficiency, Kobe every game has to take AT LEAST 5 bail out shots because the tri became stagnant with everybody sitting around not making a move(i.e. cuts spaceing or hard post up attempts) thus causing Kobe to have to jack up far more late shot clock attempts"
Did Jordan not play in that same triangle offense under Phil Jackson?
"MJ NEVER had that whether people want to admit it or not."
Seriously? Have you not heard of the Jordan Rules?
I mean if you want to say Kobe is better then Jordan, fine that's your opinion and I won't fault you for that. But the reason the Pistons beat the Bulls was because all they did was double and triple Jordan, forcing his (at the time) horrible teammates to beat them, which they never could. Saying Jordan was always guarded one on one is simply not true.
OK, let me rephrase what I meant by that. Jordan never faced any double or triple teams from the perimeter. Especially during the finals. NEVER. BTW, the reason the Bulls couldn't get past the Pistons was because they simply beat the hell outta chitown physically. They simply didn't care to hurt any Bulls player.
And yes, MJ played under the triangle but they were actually playing under two variations of the triangle. You may know this if you knew the triangle. But clearly you don't. Either way, MJ had a team built around him who could play off him perfectly. Guys who didn't care to shoot the ball or make hard cuts. Kobe has had guys like Fisher. BTW, Again, Kobe having to play the duel role of ballhandler/facilitator AND main scorer was a far greater load to carry than what Jordan did. Again, you would know this if you actually read The Last Stand where PJ even talks about how tried to have Jordan do what Kobe does as facilitator and scorer and Mike simply DID NOT have the ability to control tempo as pg and score for himself. He said they tried it and it failed even though MJ could get assists, thus the reason Pip took over facilitator duties.
I do think Kobe and MJ are near equals(near until Kobe can match him in titles) simply that if they were put in each others situations we'd be talking about them in a FAR different light.
BTW, go read The Last Stand and you will actually find wherre Phil says that Kobe always took abackseat to Shaq and played to his weaknesses to hide Shaq's instead of playing to his strength's like MJ and that had MJ been with Shaq, he'd have been played the 2nd option role to Shaq as well.
MJ is the GOAT because he did everything first, but IMO, that doesn't exactly mean he's the best to ever play the game. Babe Ruth is the GOAT in baseball, but do you not think there are AT LEAST 10 players better than him in history. MJ was great don't get me wrong, but like perez or surve one or the other said, MJ is goat because he did things before people knew they were possible, not because he was the best at it.
It's so obvious how much better MJ's legacy is than he was as a player when you get in arguments like this and people are so set in their ways that they won't even acknowledge that someone may be as talented as Mike in fear that it may take his stature down a notch even though it doesn't mean that at all. I am a Kobe fan don't get me wrong, but I'm also a true blue MJ fan as well and simply hate this debate because it's always so one sided. People arent Kobe nut huggers, there are simply a 10000 to 1 MJ dic riders.