[surveParticipant]

 Regardless of your personal feelings.  As a basketball player right now….today…..who would you rather have or who do you feel is the best player between these 2 players of similar size, position, and age.

Carmelo Anthony or Josh Smith?

[Critically ThinkingParticipant]

 who do i have on my team? im taking carmelo if i gotta start a team from scratch but if i already have a couple of go-to options then J smoove sounds like a really good fit

[NbanflguyParticipant]

It depends on my team. If I already have a go to scorer/star on the roster then I am picking Josh Smith. He can pretty much do everything well.

If I dont have a scorer/star on the team then I need Melo, One of the best if not the best pure scorer in the league.

[NbanflguyParticipant]

ha wow. We posted pretty much the exact same thing at the exact same time.

[surveParticipant]

 so you guys are saying there is no clear cut as far as who is the better player, its really who is the better fit?  so if you were drafting today, it depends on the team and you dont have a preference?

[surveParticipant]

 the reason why I made this post is because despite that Carmelo is an All-NBA performer and perennial All-Star and Smith has yet to make either team….they are near equals in terms of ability.  Smith may even be the better player but if you as the casual fan, most wouldnt think so.  Clearly Carmelo is the superstar here and Josh is not.  In terms of pure basketball, Melo is a versatile scorer and matchup nightmare….but Smith is about the best 2-way player there is in the league.  Smith is not a bad scorer in his own right, but comparing Melo to Smith defensively is downright shameful.

[surveParticipant]

 this also shows how much emphasis that is placed on offense as opposed to defense.  offense gets the glory, but most of the time, defense gets the win.  for Smith to have not made one All Star team is ridiculous to me, but it is because not enough credit is given for his game when looking being his scoring and rebounding.  Likewise with Rondo…another player I feel is underated to a degree because he is not a great scorer.

[goneParticipant]

 Is this even a question? Carmelo Anthony is one of if not thee most dynamic scorer in the game. I don’t care what team you pick this man. Josh smith is playing out of position, he is not a PF and he knows it that’s why he floats out paint. Even if he plays sf he can’t break down anyone off the dribble. Carmelo has the whole package offensively. It’s not like he can’t play D he just doesnt put forth effort the whole game.  

[aamir543Participant]

Josh Smith has been on fire lately, and while Anthony is clearly better, and his stats are down only because he has to share the load, Smith has really evolved as a complete player this past month, I would still chose Anthony, but it is really close, and it depends on who’s on my team.

And for some reason I think if the Hawks ever have a chance to get out of the second round, it’s now. They started out well but are now slipping, but are still in that 6th seed. The key for them is to stay in that 6th spot, and if Horford comes back for the playoffs, they mtachup well against Orlando, and even though they have only like a 5% chance to beat Miami, crazy things happen in the NBA. If JJ gets hot, and Josh Smith takes car of buisness, and Horford dominates inside, it could be a long series for Miami.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

The way Carmelo has played this season, I’m going with Josh Smith.  However, if Carmelo can return to his old Denver form, then I’ll take Carmelo.

[lolyouthParticipant]

I’ll take Josh Smith. Before you try and press the minus button 10 times hear me out at least. Josh Smith is a team player now. He didn’t used to be. He’s a great defender, Carmelo doesn’t defend. Defense wins championships. Smith is an all-star caliber player. Melo has been an all-star multiple times, but I don’t believe he can win a championship the way he currently is.

He is a ball-hog iso player who doesn’t play defense. Name one player like that who won a championship as the main guy on their team. Now how many decent offensive players (2nd option on Hawks)/great defenders have won championships as the secondary piece on a team.

A team will not have to cater to Josh Smith. Teams have to cater to Melo and his selfish offensive ways. I pick Josh Smith, but then again I like to win ball games not press conferences like James Dolan (Knicks Owner).

[goneParticipant]

 Wow so everyone is ignoring how Melo carried a Denver team who was the bobcats of their day to the playoffs every year…….

[db24kb24Participant]

 Simply because he is hungrier at this point and he plays both ends well. Idgaf that Melo is a perinnial AS, or that he is a great scorer i’d rather have a good scorer and a tough defender. Smith rebounds better and can protect the paint as a SF/PF. Anthony, not so much. Smith is also longer and which gives his team an advantage. Lastly the drama factor. While they both have baggage, Smith seemed to have hit the good turning point in his career and Melo and his teammates are still trying to figure things out. Whenever your defensive effort comes in to question it’s an instant turnoff for me. Jsmith

 

[Critically ThinkingParticipant]

the nuggets the bobcats? they had chauncey billup/iverson for a period of time, nene, camby, jr smith off the bench, kenyon martin…lets be real here that team had some solid pieces for melo

[goneParticipant]

Before Melo came they were terrible maybe you misunderstood me

[surveParticipant]

 I am not ignoring what Melo did in Denver.  To me though, to say Melo is "clearly" the better player today, right this moment….I dont buy it.  If he is better, its by the slightest of margins.  I personally think right now, Smith is better because the best thing that Melo does is score….but he is not a complimentary type scorer, he IS the offense, meaning you have to build around him.  This is one reason why the Melo-Stat combo has struggled at times and also why people wonder if he will hinder the development of Lin.

[goneParticipant]

You have to build around melo because he is a STAR. The Knicks struggle because Amare doesn’t rebound or play d, dantoni was a terrible coach and Lin goes into hero mode at times and turns the ball over. So let’s not blame the Knicks struggles on melo

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Melo hasn’t really been himself this season. He had knee surgery in the off-season and now is playing this grind it out season.

Next season, I think he’ll be back to his normal form.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

"Hinder the developement of Lin"

No offense, but just who in the hell do people think Lin is?

I mean, he’s a solid point guard… He’ll be a good starter, but this isn’t an All-Star talent or anything like that. I’m sick of people thinking Melo, a proven star in this league, has to tippy toe around this guy.

[db24kb24Participant]

It’s hard to build around a volume shooter whose effort on D can shift from game to game. Tell me the Knicks don’t get better if you swap Melo for J.Smith. Imagine a front line of Chandler, Amare, Smith. I’d make that swap anyday. 

[tuck243Participant]

 This is why you are not a GM, Coach, Scout, Owner, or part of a NBA organization…  You telling me a team with Amare (who is by FAR the worst defensive player in the league), Smoove, and Chandler going to go further than one with Melo???  Huh???  In the playoffs???  Where half court offense dominates???  Haha, I heard it all…

Look I don’t even know why I’m writing this because most of you prove day in and day out that you’re fawking idiots when it comes to basketball…  PLUS when people like me, WizKid, and Indiana prove to yall how great Melo really is next year NOT ONE OF YOU WILL BE FOUND!!!  This sh*t is really meaningless… So continue saying ridiculous things and living in the moment…  "What have you done for me lately?" fans are the worst in sports… Yes worse than bandwagon fans…  

[aamir543Participant]

Wizkid, I don’t think it mattered that the Nuggets sucked before he got there, it matters that he had solid pieces around. he had a solid Nene his whole time in Denver, a late prime Camby until a couple years ago, Voshon Leanord the first year or two, and he had Andre Miller before AI and Chauncey. You can argue the team he had his first year wasn’t the greatest, but his second year they got a prime K-Mart, and ever since Denver has had a very nice roster and complimentry pieces. He didn’t underachieve with that roster, but you can’t say he shattered expectations in his tenure there when you take into consideration what he had to work with.

[db24kb24Participant]

 Okay tuck, thank you for stating the obvious that Stat is a poor defender (but worse in the league, lmao). When you couple Stat w/ Melo you are too vulnerable defensively. NY thought Tyson could bail them both out, and it wont work. Sure you need a guy you can throw the ball to and create double teams but it does no good if your not a willing passer (melo). 

Defense wins in the playoffs. If your team doesnt have ball movement on offense (melo) then defenses can load up and it becomes more predicatable and much easier to defend. To complete your defense you need to rebound, blk shots, have a paint presence. Stat is not going to do that for you, Melo is not going to work that hard, so you leave it all to Chandler? Nope. Smith blks shots & hit the boards w/ the best of them. 

Look at the best teams in the L, Chicago, OKC. Both have interior(front court) defenses that outmatch there opponents. Noah, Asik, Gibson, Boos, Deng get the job done. They finish and complete plays on D which is why they have the best record in the NBA. Who stops the Ball for them on Offense? WHo is their MELO. Oh, they don’t have one. They have an MVP that has missed the majority of the season and they still roll over teams w/ out him. Why? Ball movement, unselfishness on O, and Defense. 

OKC. Perkins, Collison, Iblaka, Durant, Muhammed, Aldridge get the job done. As good as KD is he is not a ball stopper. He will get buckets for you in the clutch, which champions need but he shares the ball well w/ harden, westbrook, and co. There ball movement yesterday picked apart one of the best defenses in the L (MIA). They also finished plays in the paint w/ rebounds, taking charges, and quick rotations. 

Because Melo and Stat aren’t going to give that to you it’s fools gold. As talented as they are or WERE on offense it’s not going to beat Chicago or MIA in the east so NY should just stop while they’re ahead. Trade Melo (more value) to get a solid team player that can defend and like Chi, beleive the offense will come thru ball movement/penetration. 

The lakers are considered contenders also but it’s easy to see they won’t win if KB continues to stop the ball and force shots, which is why Mike Brown benched him yesterday. It’s not winning basketball. 

And you want me to wait a year on Melo? Why so he can improve on his chubby physique? I’ll pass, thanks though.

 

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

Smith plays much better D than Melo and is only slightly worse on offense this year. I have to say this is worthy of debate. Melo blocks half a shot a game, while Smith is beasting at nearly 2 a game. It would add an entirely different dimension to the Knicks defense if they had a shot blocker at the small forward position. So you would lose Melo’s 21 points or so per game and only get back Smith’s 18. Big deal. Smith rebounds a good deal better and drops about the same number of assists, while turning it over less. Smith might still have some improvement in him while Melo’s best days are probably behind him (not saying he is falling apart, just that he may have peaked). Of course, this could also just be a career year for Smith and this is as good as it will ever get. 

[bjcart53Participant]

 This is a tough one. What I’m starting to see is that melo really doesn’t help you win whenever he has to score 28+ points. He is better served as a 19ppg to 22ppg type guy cause it seems he does more impactful things whenever his numbers are lower scoring. Josh smith is a stat sheet stuffer but he is boneheaded at times. I would take probably take Josh because he can probably fit in anywhere I put him.

[tuck243Participant]

You are wrong…  Kenyon was coming off a major surgery which he never been the same player since…  Nene was wildly considered a bust at that time, Camby was injury prone, and Andre Miller was decent but not something to write home about…  The dude was a terrible 3pt shooter… I’ve already said my peice on Melo and his career in other topics…  D. Wade had worse success than Melo without Shaq and LeBron…  But no one is on here commenting on that…  If Melo was having a season like he had last year, the year prior, or the year before that this wouldn’t even be an issue…  Like I said majority of you are right now fans anyway with delusions of the truth… 

[tuck243Participant]

 Who can score in a half court setting???  Secondly, you haven’t seen Melo lately or the defense he plays on LeBron enough to realize he can actually play D…  Is the effort there always??  No, but I’m sure when it need to be done he will do it like he has as of late…  Yes Amare is the worst defender in the league, second is Blake Griffin, next would be Kevin Love, then Steve Nash…  All just doesn’t a fawking clue on what is going on…  But that’s not the argument here…  The argument is would you trade a player who was THE FACE of a franchise and took them to the playoffs EVERY year for a defensive player (who has a poor motor just as much as Melo?)  

Let’s be real here, at times J. Smoove is going through motions and doesn’t seem to play…  Unless you just watched him this year you know that…  In fact majority of his career in Atlanta he wasn’t even the 2nd best player on his team…  You know why Joe Johnson get paid that much money???  Because you can ACTUALLY go thru J.J. you can’t do that with Josh…  Yes he’s been playing well lately but are you willing to trade a STAR for a quality role player??  That doesn’t make sense…

Yes defense wins championships but offensive prowess is hard to come by…  No one believes defense is important more than me but I’m not niave to think offense isn’t crucial…  Dirk proved last year that as long as you have defensive role players around your star you can win…  Especially versus whats considered the best talented team in the history of the NBA…  So like I said "YOU DON’T TRADE MELO FOR JOSH SMITH"…  You right now fans…

[aamir543Participant]

Since this is an analytical thread, I guess the use of sbermetric stats would be welcomed, lol.

If you look at Amare’s defensive Win Shares and Defensive ratings for not only this year but also for years past, you will find that from the 2008-2009 season till last he was an absolutly atrocious defender, however prior to that and this season, his defensive win share and rating is respectable, and compared to D ratings and win shares of other guys I’ve been looking at, Amare numbers aren’t that bad, however that three year period he was pretty bad, not gonna lie. And the thing that surprised me most is that every year of his career Phoenix and NY have been run’n gun fast pace teams, yet his defensive rating for most years rivals Lebron’s(Although just by looking at these it’s obvious that they’re greatly flawed, but they have to mean somthing) 

Defensive rating is an estimate of how many points a player gives up per 100 possesions. This year Lebron is at 97, and Amare is at 100. However the last couple seasons Lebron was at 102, and while it’s skewed to take numbers from different season expecially this season, I don’t think it makes that big of a difference. I don’t know what this stat is missing, but all I’m saying is that per 100 possesions, this estimate says Amare gives up just 3 more points than Lebron, although tha once again may be skewed due to Lebron being a perimeter player, and therefore the Three Pointer might mess up this stat as well, which makes Amare’s previous defensive rating stats even worse. In 09 it was ’11, 109 in ’10, and 108 in ’11, which explains how terrible he was these past couple seasons, however you could also argue that the only reason that stat has imroved is because the addition fo Melo has slowed the pace of the offense, and this is one of the lower scoring seasons due to the condensed schedule. And just a fun fact, both Melo and Amare have higher Defensive win shares than offensive win shares this season. First time for each of them in their careers. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stoudam01.html

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

[aamir543Participant]

Delusions of the truth? I didn’t say that Melo had the best supporting cast ever or anything. I understand that what Melo was able to do his first couple seasons was a great feat, however he did have a good supporting cast, and K-Mart was somewhat healthy his first two seasons, and put up decent numbers although, knee surgery and the lack of Jason Kidd resulted in his decreased production.

Now that I look further into it, I will agree that Melo did have quite a bit to work against, and had inconsistent guys around him until his fourth year when AI came to town, and his first two years expecially were pretty tough with a thin supporting cast, but he did have really great defenders around him in an in prime Miller and Camby, which was the root to their mild success.

[tuck243Participant]

 That’s interesting but I don’t think it’s very accurate…  LeBron for the past 3 years have been a monster on the defensive end…  And personally I think he’s a top 5 defensive player in the NBA…  You don’t have to look at stats to tell Amare is a terrible defender…  

Since Mike Woodson have taken over the Knicks for the first time in their careers both have to play defense… Which I think Melo needs to be held accountable for his actions that’s when he plays better…  Look at when George Karl started to comment on Melo’s play…  Melo turned it around…  Granted he’s a Grown Ass Man but Melo is the Dennis the Menace of the NBA…  Great dude just get lazy sometimes…  He need a coach that will tell him he’s fawking up which Mikey D wasn’t the one… Plus with the New York media Melo need New York more than NYC need him…  They will keep him on his toes concerning his level of play… 

Before this season even started I said calm down on expectations for players because it will be a completely different season…  Some players can take no practice time, some can’t…  No real scouting reports on players will enable some players to have better seasons than others…  Some players came in the season in great shape some didn’t…  Regardless this season is really a wash and the REAL NBA season is next year…  Majority of us have no clue how this will play out, we are just waiting for the playoffs to see real basketball…  So I challenge you all to stop criticizing players on this type of level until the middle of next season…  That’s when you will "really" know how great a player is or isn’t… Or a team for that matter…  Hell the NYK and a Soph led Spurs went to the last lock-out NBA Finals…  Neither was a favorite to win it all…  Knicks haven’t been near that success since and Duncan didn’t go back for years… 

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

His offense is exponentially ahead of Josh Smith, while defensively you can honestly live with him. Melo is not a dominant defender, far from it, but Josh Smith’s defense is not good enough to mask his severe deficiencies as an offensive player. Anyone who watches Josh Smith knows you have to literally pray for him to make a shot outside 15 feet.

I know Melo has struggled, but Josh Smith is shooting 44-29-61. Josh Smith is a phenomenal athlete, but is incredibly limited as an offensive option. Even with his defensive abilities, I would much rather have a guy like Carmelo if I had to choose a player to start a team with or add to most teams. Josh should not be a PF, but he manages to play the position in a way to mask his inability to shoot the ball consistently. I think there is a clear reason Carmelo Anthony is a multiple time All-Star and Smith is not. 

[mookieParticipant]

 MELO!

[surveParticipant]

 I dont mean to insist that Lin is a future All-NBAer, but for the moment he is their temporary answer at PG.  What I mean is, every piece in NY has to fit around Carmelo.  It didnt matter if the Knicks were winning when Melo went out, but when he got back….Melo was not necessarily the guy who had to make adjustments.   You just dont ask Melo to make adjustments, you ask (maybe without asking because they already know) others to make the adjustment….and that could hurt those players individually or the team as a whole if these adjustments dont work.  Melo is a great talent but he is not Lebron, DWade, KD, Dwight, etc…he is not in that class where you can just say he automatically makes his teammates better with anything he brings to the table.  I certainly dont think he will make Lin better.

[surveParticipant]

 I also dont want to turn this into a Melo bashing thread, just want to suggest that Smith is playing at a high level.  He is limited in the ways he can score, but gosh, he brings so much to the table.   As much as Rondo is underappreciated, Smith gets it worse.  As mentioned above, if you replace Melo with Smith, depending on the coaching, you have to makings of a menacing defensive team, particularly if Shumpert comes around.  The cons of that is, they would likely struggle creating offense in the postseason.

JJ gets the big contract because he is ATL’s primary offensive player, but for about the past 3 years I have viewed Smith as ATL’s best player.  Also, is there a great argument as to why JJ makes the All Star team every year and Smith doesnt?  Maybe ATL would be better with Melo than Smith because you are pairing two versatile scorers…and JJ is better as a 2nd option.  Then again, those are two high-maintainence/high usage players.

[surveParticipant]

 What really should be the biggest analytical point is, how do these players ultimate impact the game as far as winning?  How they perform when other critical teammates are out due to injury?  How well can their teams perform without them?  Melo will always be a great individual player…will it translate into winning?  People always view Smith as the 3rd best player on his team, this is due to him really being the 3rd offensive option and not based on his total impact on the game.

I think the biggest question is, is it always necessary or better to have a guy you have to build around or a guy who can fit in?  Back when Jordan was playing I would definitely say it was the former over the latter…..but the game has really changed in my eyes since MJ was playing.

For the record, I am not a "right now fan".   Although I like Smith, he probably isnt in my top 10 personal favorite players and behind Melo.  Neither is Rondo.  I just think sometimes its impossible for these guys to get credit for their impact because they dont have complete offensive packages.

[db24kb24Participant]

 I agree w/ that^ 99.2% 

Your post kinda reminds me of Luol Deng. There is no way in H you build a team around him, but he quiety impacts the game in ways that translates into wins. He brings the intangibles every night. If Chi needs a scoring he can get hot, if they need a stop he comes up w/ a steal, if they need to rebound he hits the boards. And he doesn’t beg for touches, he’s not a drama queen, or an attention whore, he just goes about his business. These are the ball players I like. 

J.Smith has a lot of the same qualities and I only see his game growing. He’s a young all-nba defender, his offensive game is expanding, and he goes about his business w/ a chip on his shoulder. Are you going to give Luol/Josh the ball in the half-court when the game slows, probably not. Will he crash the boards to keep a possesion alive, set a hard screen, make the correct pass, hit the jumper or make the play when the ball is swung to him, yes. 

And you’re right, when players don’t have complete offensive packages people will h8/sleep on them, smh

[DondiJohnParticipant]

 Both have questionable shot selection

Smith. His form and outside touch is not that consistent with that also, he doesnt have a back to the basket game. Most of his points come from fast breaks and long range shots in which he shoots low %.

Melo on the other hand is a scorer so dont be surprised of his shot selection. That’s all he brings unlike Josh who can almost do everything. I think Melo’s struggling because he has to share the basketball, we all know from his days up to the Nuggets squad that the offense runs thru him.

Choosing which one would depend on the team, if you have lots of role players choose Melo but if you have a go-to player and a decent 2nd option then I’d choose JSmoove.

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

I’m with DB on this and usually take Josh.  He’s just easier to build with, assuming you have the right coach and he doesn’t make you cover up for a major liability like Melo does.  And Tuck, no one questions that Melo CAN play D, but the simple fact is D is desire and Melo doesn’t show that consistently.

[Author]

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