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HOF Candidates 1.1

surve
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HOF Candidates 1.1

Ok, we will continue our HOF discussions here on a new thread but this time, I want to add in a prerequisite for our candidates.

*candidates must have made All-NBA 1st or 2nd Team

*candidates must have made All-Star team at least 4 times

with that being said, let me start with our first candidate

Penny Hardaway:

What gets him in:

  • 3x All-NBA (2-time 2nd Team and 1x Third Team)
  • 5x All-Star
  • All-Rookie 1st Team
  • NBA Rookie Game MVP
  • 1996 U.S. Olympic Gold Medalist
  • Parade National High School Player of the Year
  • HOF Shares: unlisted
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 208

What keeps him out:

  • Injuries virtually ended his prime
  • only averaged 20pts or more twice
  • had 10 season with less than 60 games played
  • never reached MVP consideration level

An amazing player in HS, college and early in his NBA career. A contributor on the 1996 Gold Medal winning Olympic Team. Penny's prime was ended with injuries, although he stuck around in the league a number of years, he was only prime for about 3 years, not including his rookie season. His credentials are good but his prime was too short allowing him very small career totals and the length of his career outside his prime damaged his career averages. Does consideration go to his enormous basketball career up until the end of his prime? Probably not enough to warrant him being inducted.

My Vote: OUT


surve
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Maurice Cheeks

Maurice Cheeks:

What gets him in:

  • NBA Champion
  • 1x All-NBA 2nd Team
  • 4x All-Star
  • All-Rookie 1st Team
  • 4x All-Defensive Team
  • arguably the best defender in the league during his prime
  • One of the best leaders of all time
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 192

What keeps him out:

  • Low point total (12,195) and avg (11.1)
  • was never considered the best player on his team
  • never considered the best PG in the league
  • overshadowed by HOF teammates and other good PG's of his time
  • 52 total 3pt FGs on 25% shooting

Cheeks is like what Derek Fisher is today. You cant measure their worth with mere stats. Cheeks was a true General and an unflappable ball-handler. His defense was his calling card. Mo Cheeks was about as solid as a player can get without being spectacular. He has already been a finalist as a HOFer before and I think his chances look good. Some think Cheeks was just a tad below HOF status, but we can use him as an example for some of these younger players and learn that history is likely to be kinder to them than present times are.

My Vote: IN

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As much as it pains me, Penny

As much as it pains me, Penny will not make it in due to his lack of years. Mo Cheeks will definitely get in IMO. At least deservedly so.

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I was as big of a Penny fan

I was as big of a Penny fan as anybody else.... had his jersey and everything. However, as mentioned, lack of meaningful playing career would keep him out.

Can not say much about Cheeks as I did not see him play much. I did meet him in NYC years ago as his Sixers were in town to play the Knicks. He was gracious enough to spend a few minutes to shoot the #$%% with me.

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kevin johnson nuff said

kevin johnson nuff said

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kevin johnson 20pts 10 assist

kevin johnson 20pts 10 assist 5 times 49% from da field give him some love

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What about Shawn Kemp? He had

What about Shawn Kemp?

He had 8-10 good seasons, a six time all-star and 3 straight All-NBA 2nd team appearances. He raised his scoring average in each of his first 7 years. The 1996 Finals appearance helps his case.

He had 15,000 points and just under 9,000 rebounds for his career.

His scoring high was 19.6 in 1995-1996 which was kind of low but some say he was the best player on the court in the NBA Finals that year.

Other than that he had some AWESOME game dunks, participated in some dunk contests, and was a fan favorite.

He's not a clear first-ballot Hall of Fame candidate but I think you can make a case for him.

surve
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^

yeah, I am getting to Kemp, he is definitely on my list

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Kevin Johnson

Kevin Johnson:

What gets him in:

  • 17.9ppg, 9.1apg, 1.5spg
  • 5x All-NBA (4-time 2nd Team, 1-time 3rd Team)
  • 3x NBA All-Star
  • NBA Most Improved Player
  • Gold Medalist- 1994 FIBA World Championship
  • High character guy with lots of community work and popularity as Mayor of Sacramento
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 122

What keeps him out:

  • Only 1 NBA Finals Appearance with 105 playoff games
  • not a long career, only 735 games
  • numbers similar to other HOF probables of his era such is Tim Hardaway
  • never considered the best PG in the league
  • overshadowed by HOF teammates and other good PG's of his time
  • 52 total 3pt FGs on 25% shooting

I loved watching KJ play, he was one of my favorites. I remember when he was drafted. He was a good athlete and had great IQ. He was an ambassador and still is to this day. His numbers were similar to other players like Tim Hardaway and Reggie Miller. He was not in an elite class over his contemporaries but ultimately, what edges him in is his popularity during and after his ballplaying career. His efforts in extending the stay of the Kings in Sacramento keeps his name out there in the NBA community and I think this nudges him in.

My Vote: IN

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Shawn Kemp is an interesting

Shawn Kemp is an interesting one, he has to be considered but I would say bordrline HOF if you look at his stats but he did take the Sonics to the 1996 finals.

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Hey Surve, you want me to do

Hey Surve, you want me to do one?

surve
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aamir

be my guest....

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Do you have a specific player

Do you have a specific player in mind?

surve
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Kemp...

I thought about Kemp a lot, as of right now I wouldnt vote him in, maybe I will feel different when I do an outline on him. I seem to always compare his career to Zo's because they were the top HS players the same year. Zo's resume is slightly more impressive in the NBA I would say and Zo' has more world championship experience so IMO, if Kemp gets in then Zo gets in, but not the other way around.

surve
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@aamir

there's

Mark Price

Mitch Richmond

Tim Hardaway

Tom Chambers

Amare Stoudemire

Dikembe Mutombo

aamir543
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Thanks, Ill do a couple.

Thanks, Ill do a couple.

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Wait, stoudamire already?

Wait, stoudamire already?

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Tim Hardaway: What gets him

Tim Hardaway:

What gets him in-
Two 20 and 10 seasons
5 all-star games
5 all-nba teams(1 first team, 3 second teams, and 1 third team)
Finished 4 and 6 in MVP voting
Resurected his career after a bad year in 96.
13 in career three pointers made

What keeps him out-
Never considered the best for his position
Never considered a front runner for the MVP
Had good stats in a run and gun offense
His off the court stuff
Had really good teamates in Miami
Never won a tittle

My verdict- IN

He was a great player overall, had a great career, one of the few players to get 20 and 10 in a season, and did it twice, and almost three times, a good three point shooter, and because of how good he was in his prime years, I think he should get in.

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Mitch RichmondWhat gets him

Mitch Richmond

What gets him in

  • 6 all star game appearances
  • 5 all nba teams (2 third teams, 3 second teams)
  • Rookie of the year
  • 10 seasons of scoring at least 21.9 a game, 1 in which was shortened by 37 games, and in every other season he played at least 70 games
  • Was solid scorer even at age 35.
  • 32nd all time in three point field goals made

What keeps him out

  • Never finished higher than 13th in MVP shares
  • Never considered among the elite players in the game, was maybe a star, but not a super star
  • Won championship, but that was basically his swan song
  • Didn't really do much else than score, had OK revounding and assist numbers
  • His Scramento team became a contender when he was traded
  • Made the playoffs only three times in his prime
  • Never made it out the second round in his prime

My verdict: In

What does him in for me is that he was consistantly a very good scorer. Although he never made it far into the playoffs, he was still considered a top 15 player for many many years. He scored 16 points in every season but his last, and was healthy for most of his career. I know this may spark controversey, but I think he has a shot, but maybe on a later ballot.

surve
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lol, Stoudemir has built up

lol, Stoudemir has built up enough credentials already. 1st team all-nba once and 4x 2nd team. already made 6 all star games and he only looks like he will get more.

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Yeah, barring major injury,

Yeah, barring major injury, he looks like he is on his way, first ballot. And all that with missing a whole season.

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The Glove..#20 from the Seattle Super Sonics

My one throw up for this, Gary Payton, aka THE GLOVE. Is in no doubt, is he already? Stupid I know, I should know.

89-90 NCAA AP All America (1st)
90-91 All Rookie (2nd)
93-94 All Defensive (1st)
93-94 All NBA (3rd)
94-95 All Defensive (1st)
94-95 All NBA (2nd)
95-96 All Defensive (1st)
95-96 All NBA (2nd) at Key Arena vs. the Bulls.
96-97 All Defensive (1st)
96-97 All NBA (2nd) .... that's the first half of his career.

How many of you on this site saw Jordan suit up in person?

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I think Payton is practically

I think Payton is practically guarenteed to get in. 9 time all-star, DPOY in 1996. 2 time first team All-NBA, 5 time second team All-NBA. The greatest defensive point guard in NBA history and averaged at least 20 PPG in seven different seasons. Yeah he's a lock.

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Yeah, Payton is a lock.

Yeah, Payton is a lock.

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you dont even have to make

you dont even have to make one for Dekembe Mutumbo because what he's done outside the game of basketball and for the game will get him in

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HOF

I think Penny has no shot, nor does he belong in the HOF his career was not long enough period. He was a bright star but he burned out very quickly and those kind of players dont deserve to be in the hall. Mo Cheeks was before my time, so it hard for me to say whether he belongs in the hall or not, but I dont believe he will based on his career numbers and the fact he played with Dr.J, Daryl Dawkins, Andrew Toney, and Moses Malone and he only won one NBA title. Shawn Kemp is another player who doesnt belong in the hall, his career was cut short by hamburgers and animal fries, he literally ate himself out of the hall of fame, because he couldnt control his weight and became a ineffective player toward the tail end of a fairly short career (as far as HOF standards go). Kevin Johnson's HOF candidacy is an interesting discussion, but I believe he just didnt play long enough and he falls into the very good, but not great corrolary and the hall is for great players not very good ones, however I believe he might sneak in. Tim Hardaway's HOF candidacy is another interesting discussion, I also believe his career falls into the very good, not great corollary, however he had some excellent years where he was among the leagues elite players and this may be enough to get him in, but I believe he will fall short. Mitch Ritchmond to me belongs in the HOF, this guy was a scoring machine who played on terrible teams (with the exception of those early 90's warriors teams and the lakers team he won a championship with), but he could put the ball in the hoop with the best of them and was one of the leagues elite shooters for a decade. Honestly do you need to bring up Payton's candidacy dude is a lock for the hall first ballot, wouldnt suprise me if hes a unamious choice, he was one the the leagues best players for a decade and played stiffling perimeter defense and could put the ball in the hoop, plus he had HOF swag.

@MemphisMadness you made me laugh with this comment regarding Shawn Kemp " but some say he was the best player on the court in the NBA Finals that year." I would like to know who said he was the best player on the court in that finals, because he was sharing the court with the greatest basketabll player of all time (MJ), Scottie Pippen(a lock for the HOF) and Gary Payton(a lock for the HOF). BTW is was Payton who carried Seattle to the finals that year, a lot of what Kemp did was based off of GP's playmaking and the fact GP played D against the best perimeter player night in and night out. Look at Payton's d on Jordan the last three games of that series when George Karl finally realized GP should guard Jordan, that was the closest you ever saw Jordan to getting locked down.

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k. johnson didnt play long

k. johnson didnt play long enough really. he played over 10yrs again 20 & 10 5 times.

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benard king check da resume

benard king check da resume

surve
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^

yeah B-King is my man, one of my favorite players that I have seen play. definitely had him on my list.

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Mutombo gets in easily, maybe

Mutombo gets in easily, maybe not first ballot, but he'll get in. He has 8 all-star games, 4 time DPOY, 3 time all NBA(2nd team once, 3rd team twice), 6 defensive teams, end in career blocks, only to Hakeem Olijajaun, and how could we forget the finger wag.

All this despit entering the league at age 25, he did all this, he'll get in, definately.

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@aamir543 haha man did you

@aamir543 haha man did you even see some of these players play? No disrespect, I just thought you were born in '96 or something and you came up with some pretty good summaries of the players lol.

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Yes, I am 14, but were you

Yes, I am 14, but were you serious or being saracstic? Just curious.

surve
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Mark Price

Mark Price (aka "The Price is Right"):

What gets him in:

  • 15.2ppg, 6.7apg, 1.2spg
  • 4x All-NBA (1-time 1st Team, 3-time 3rd Team)
  • 4x NBA All-Star
  • Gold Medalist- 1983 Pan-American Games
  • Gold Medalist- 1994 FIBA World Championship
  • Atlanta Sports Hall of Fame Inductee
  • 976 3pt FGs on 40% shooting
  • Great College Career
  • Still active in the NBA as shooting coach and consultant
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 163

What keeps him out:

  • Never won an NBA title (Jordan Era)
  • not a long career, only 722 games
  • numbers not as good as another HOF hopeful and former teammate Kevin Johnson
  • never considered the best PG in the league
  • could not get past the Chicago Bulls in the playoffs

Its funny because on this new list I have KJ and MP, and they were two of the most underated PG's in history I think. This was largely due to them being in the Jordan Era. The Cavs and MP could never get past Jordan in the East and while KJ and Sir Charles were able to get to the finals, the Bulls were just too dominant at the time. Interesting note, KJ and MP were teammates twice, early with the Cleveland Cavaliers and then on Dream Team II. Like KJ, his chances of getting in will be prolonged due to his short career and short prime. He played 12 seasons and averaged double figures scoring in 8 of those. I watched Price growing up and I remember when he was coming out of Georgia Tech, the same questions and and intrigue surrounding him were almost identical to Jimmer Fredette. Was he quick enough, could he get his own shot, could he play D. If Fredette is the 2nd coming of Mark Price, which he very well could be, then look out, he will have a splendid career. Price's numbers are not enough to get him in right now, but in time, if he hangs around the league and becomes a notable coach/consultant, I can see it happening for him down the road...just not anytime soon.

My Vote: OUT

surve
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Payton is in

so I didnt bother to do one on him

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Robert horry

Ok so he does not meet the criteria, but he does have 7 nba titles 1 nba rookie second team, most steals in an NBA Finals game (7), most playoff games played (244), three-pointers in the NBA Finals (53) and hit some of the biggest shots in history..

one of nine players in history with seven or more championships who did not play for the 1960s Boston Celtics

does the greatest role player of all time warrant HOF?

also...

Bernard king: 4x All-Star, 2x All-NBA first team (’83-’85), All-NBA second team (’81-’82), All-NBA third team (’90-’91), MVP runner-up (’84), leagues leading scorer (1x), career stats of 22.5 points 5.8 rebounds 3.3 assists.... had one season where he scored 32.9 ppg.. playoff stats 24.5 points, 4.3 rebounds, 2.3 assists;

surve
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Bernard King

Bernard King (aka "The Texas Massacre"):

What gets him in:

  • 22ppg, 5.8apg, 3.3apg
  • Avg 24ppg, 9.5rpg as a rookie
  • Avg over 20ppg 11 seasons
  • 4x All-NBA (2-time 1st Team, 1-time 2nd Team, 1-time 3rd Team)
  • 4x NBA All-Star
  • NBA Scoring Champion (1985)
  • Nominated for Basketball HOF in 2004
  • First player to score 50pts in consecutive games in 20 years (against San Antonio and Dallas, earning him his nickname)
  • Became the 10th player to 60pts in a game
  • Scored the most points ever on a Christmas Day game (60)
  • One of NYC's most beloved sports figures ever
  • Teamed with Ernie Grunfeld at Tennessee (dubbed "the Ernie and Bernie show")
  • Averaged over 25ppg during 3 years at Tennessee
  • had one of the greatest comeback stories in sports history
  • one of the most resilient and competitive warriors in NBA history
  • Career MVP Shares: 46
  • 1985 Sporting News MVP
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 122

What keeps him out:

  • Major knee injury at the peak of his career robbed him of some prime years
  • early off-court problems stemming from substance abuse
  • Not a strong defender
  • Never considered the best player in the league (either Magic or Bird was at the time, no shame in that)
  • avg postseason history

I was fortunate enough to see Bernard when I was a kid and his scoring ability was off the charts. He was so explosive and had a super quick and smooth shooting touch to go along with a vast array of moves. He tore his ACL in Patrick Ewing's rookie season and missed the entire year. After knee injuries robbed him of his explosiveness, he came back in 1991 at 34 years old to average 28ppg while playing in 64 games. He was the deadliest mid-range scorer I had ever remember seeing. I cant remember the exact game, but I remember he was playing for the Knicks and he had dislocated his finger and sprained his knee or something, and he was noticably limping and he still scored like 30-40 points. He was a machine, and title or not, this guy deserves to be in the HOF simply of his return to the All-Star game 6 years after tearing his ACL. I will never forget how emotional he was at that All-Star game.

My Vote: IN

surve
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Sorry, had to post this...

surve
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^^^

lol at commentary...

"I wouldnt do that to my worst enemy...thats one way to get out of guarding Bernard King is to get 3 quick fouls"

"that time he just let him go around him..thats not the way to stop him either"

surve
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note how Bernard could shoot

note how Bernard could shoot midrange with his left hand!

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@aamir

dude, u r only 14? u have good basketball knowledge for a youngster, and I am NOT being sarcastic.

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Thank you, but there are

Thank you, but there are still many social aspects of life that I am still maturing into. As for basketball knowledge, I have watched quite a bit for the past 7-8 years, but I learn new things every day. For instance, I had no clue how great Mullin was in his prime, or how Bernard King scored 28 a game in his mid thirties. And Surve, you also have good basketball knowledge. :)

After we are done with the 1.1 comparisions, please make another one, threads like these are interesting and fun.

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@aamir haha yeah dude I was

@aamir haha yeah dude I was being serious

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Shawn Kemp

Shawn "Reign Man" Kemp:

What gets him in:

  • 3x All-NBA 2nd-Team
  • 6x All-Star
  • Gold Medalist 1994 FIBA World Championships
  • Legendary Dunker and Highlight Reel Player
  • Best Year: avg 19.6ppg, 11.4rpg, and 1.6bpg while leading the Sonics to the NBA Finals
  • Career MVP Shares: 84
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 176

What keeps him out:

  • Extremely rapid decline
  • Short prime, only 10 years of solid stats during 14 year career
  • did not have a great rookie season
  • off-court problems dating back since HS
  • a great but not legendary HS career
  • no college career

Shawn Kemp was one of the most exciting players to ever play the game. He wasnt just a spectacular dunker however, he was one of the most skilled PF's to ever play and during his prime one of the best. “The Reign Man” could handle the ball, pass, rebound, block shots, knock down mid-range jumpers and score inside — not to mention he is the best big-man dunker of all-time and his career highlight reel ranks right up there with Vince and MJ in terms of entertainment value. His battle with weight control and substance abuse ended his career swiftly. He went from the 1999-2000 season where he played all 82 regular season games averaging 17.8ppg and 8.8rpg, to the next season averaging 6.5ppg and 3.8rpg. That stat tells how fast Kemp fell. As I stated before, I always seem to compare the careers of Kemp and Zo because they came out of HS the same year but careers took very different paths. This is the BASKETBALL HOF and outside of the NBA and off the court, Kemp has very little accomplishments or accolades. He wasnt even Mr. Basketball in his home state of Indiana. With that being said, I dont think he gets in outside of the fact that timing may be kind to him because he was a Power Forward.

My Vote: OUT

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Thank you akhan786, and out

Thank you akhan786, and out of curiosity, is there a specific meaning of the 786 in your username?

Am I the only one that thinks Vince Carter deserves his own thread about whether he deserves to make it?

Tom Chambers

What gets him in

  • His great scoring and rebounding ability
  • 4 all star games
  • All star game MVP
  • 2 all NBA second teams
  • 41st in career points with over 20,000
  • In Per 36 minute stats, he scored 20 ppg for 9 consecutive seasons.
  • In some sense was a late bloomer(Could hurt him or help him)
  • Finished top 10 in MVP shares twice
  • Top hundred in career rebounds

What keeps him out

  • Got good minutes, but for many years didn't get more than 33 per game due to constant foul trouble
  • After his 27 ppg season, he fell off quite a bit, and he continued to age dramatically
  • Never considered among the elite in the game
  • Never won a ring.

This was a very interesting one. He had good scoring averages, but not quite good enough for the Hall. Then I realized that he fouled quite a bit, enough for 19th all time. He was a prolific scorer, and for some random seasons was a very good rebounder. Overall I think he will barely Get IN, but it's very hard to say, but IMO, the all-star game puts him over the top. Now, I would not disagree with you if you think he should be out, in my opinion this is a toss up, but he was a great player nontheless.

Another thing, I think we are being a bit too leniant with who should or should not get in, myself included, but still great summaries by Surve and others. Maybe we could have a vote among the forum members to see who we think should and should not get in.

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Kemp won't simpy due to his

Kemp won't simpy due to his weight and drug issues. &$#%#&@! lockouts. You ruined one of my favorite payers of all time. Kemp's HORRID assist to turnover ratio may cause problems for him as well as he was something near 1:2, which is pretty piss poor when you're a guy who gets 2-3 assists a game.

surve
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^^^

excellent post on Tom Chambers....when I was a teenager I used to love the Sonic when they had him and the X-Man...Xavier McDaniel.

yes, Vince needs his own thread. the majority seems to think he doesnt belong...but there are a lot of people like me who thinks he does. he was right on the cusp. a title or strong Finals run would put him over the top...I think he is one of the closest calls out of everyone we have listed.

Had Kemp had about 3 more solid years, he wouldve been in.

ProudGrandpa
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What about

Stephon Marbury? 19.3 PPG, 7.3 APG

aamir543
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^

Grandpa did you read my mind? Literally two minutes ago I thought about checking Marbury's basketball reference page to see if he had enough accolades.

You scare me Proud Grandpa, you scare me.

ProudGrandpa
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Thanks

I'm good with kids...

aamir543
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No Marbuy, 2 all star games,

No Marbuy, 2 all star games, 2 all-nba teams, not enough, but what is scary is that when he joined Boston for their playoff run in 09, he was only 31 or 32! He stopped getting 20 and 8 when he was 28 years old. A couple more years like that and maybe at least an argument could have been made. The fact is he had 5 really good full years, two more good years cut short, two nice years in the begining of his career when he was rising, and three more years like that when he was declining.

aamir543
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Pedophile......

Pedophile......

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