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HOF Candidates 1.0

surve
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^^^

I think Billups deserves to get in, no doubt about it in my mind, he is much better than his numbers show on paper. I agree with you though, it will be hard for him to get in but he will make some ballots.

Let me add though, another thing that hurts Chauncey is, he had a very slow start in his first 5 years. One thing that will help him though is, at 34 he is still producing at a high level. His ppg is still high considering he has been playing with some damn good scorers like Melo, Stat, Nene. In NY, he is one hell of a 3rd option.

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Body of Work Question

College Body of Work has to be considered because Mullin got in already and Reggie didnt even make the ballot yet. I think my 2.0 will be comparisons of players who have gotten in like Mullin and players who havent yet like Miller.

To give you a teaser, some people rank Reggie as a better player than Mullin...but that could be misleading as Reggie was a notoriously famous player. He was a big time player but he was pretty one dimensional too. Mullin had better All-NBA selections.

Again, Mullin was famous...Reggie...notoriously famous. Plus I think being on the Dream Team sealed it for Chris....so he is in the HOF twice already.

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@surve, I have no problem

@surve, I have no problem with Buillups getting in, all Im saying is that if he gets the nod, doesn't that open the door for guys llike Shawn Marion, or Sam Cassell, or even an Antwan Walker. We'll eliminate Walker, cause he doesn't have a ring, but really, I was reading a Bill Simmons article where he brought it to my attention that maybe marion is top 100, or at least maybe top 125 all time. But my point is, fine let Buillups in he is a great player and competitor, but that opens the door for a whole new section of players.

@bmoredc, Like I said, I have no problem with you saying Arenas won't get in, but hear me out, as of 04, if you were asked about Steve Nash and the HOF, you would laugh, right? And you would probably say with confidence that Nash will never make it, don't be embarresed, I would have done the same. Well, he proved us wrong, and while I don't think Arenas will ever score more than 15 ppg, you can't shut the door on it.

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Pau Gasol

Pau Gasol

One of the better post scorers in the league. Good passer and rebounder. Face up or back down. Extremely versatile for a big man.

What gets him in:

* 2x NBA Champion
* 4x NBA All-Star
* 1x Spanish League Champion
* 1x Spanish League Finals MVP
* 3x NBA Teamer
* 7x European Player of the Year
* 2x FIBA Gold Medalist
* 2x FIBA Silver Medalist
* 1x Olympic Silver Medalist
* Best Spanish player ever in the NBA
* Solid 1st option on playoff team
* Great 2nd option on championship team
* Best stats: 20.8ppg (06-07), 11.3rpg (09-10), 4.6apg (05-06)
* Rookie of the Year

What keeps him out:

* Not much recognition until he was traded to L.A.
* 13,733 total points
* 6,657 total rebounds
* Average good player

The fact that he's an average good player that comes a couple of times in a generation is what might keep him out. One thing that is in his favor though, is his international success. His FIBA success and what he did before he came to the NBA may bring him in.

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I dont think Billups opens

I dont think Billups opens the door for those players, maybe the perception is that he does...and you could be right, that could happen. Me personally, I rate Billups a lil above guys like Marion and Cassell just be Billups was Detroit's best player for a while and the whole time they were big time threats in the East...as soon as Billups left, there postseason success ended and Denver's began.

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Gasol gets in, I don't really

Gasol gets in, I don't really think there is much controversey to that, but what I am talking about is guys Marion, Buillups, Hill, guys like that.

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This sort of like letting

This sort of like letting Vince Carter in, if you let Vince in, then you have to let McGrady, and Hill in. Same with someone like Buillups, if you let him in, what about Cassell and Marion.

I love Marion as a player, but I think we are getting waaaaaaaaay to broad if we start letting the Buillups, and the Cassells in. Sooner or later, you'll have guys like Mo Williams lined up, So you have to chose carefully.

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Since you did one for Webber

Since you did one for Webber I figured I'd do one for my favorite player of all time; Alonzo Mourning.

According to basketball reference his HOF probability is .4723

What Gets Him In:

17.5 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 2.7 BPG for his career

7 All-Star Games

2 time Defensive Player of the Year

2 time All-NBA selection

Inspirational recovery from kidney disease increased his popularity

Vital role player on 2006 championship Heat team

Gold Medal in 2000 Olympics

What Keeps Him Out:

Cut down while still in the prime of his career due to illness.

Never was considered the best player in the league at his position.

Played only 838 games in a 15 year career.

Didn't win a championship as a go to guy.

Career numbers, besides blocks, aren't very impressive; 7137 rebounds (95th all time), 14311 points (145th)

My Verdict: IN

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manu over carter

i think Manu will get in First rather than Carter and Billups, im not a hater of Carter, but i see him not making a huge impact on a team, he was in orlando, who has Dwight Howard, and he was not an efficient player though he averaged 47% from the field, also in phoenix, it was a run and gun team, steve nash was there!,

If you put Manu on a team, he can surely produce, offense and Defense,

He got a euroleauge Belt under his waist, he got Rings!,

I pick ginobli over Parker, he is now 34 and still is a big contributor to the spurs,

not to mention he was drafted 57th in 1999 NBA draft

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One More thing Naismith

One More thing Naismith Memorial Basketball hall of Fame is not about giving the award to NBA players only, they also honor what they did in internationaly

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Sorry! carter not parker

Sorry! carter not parker

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I'm with FilipinoElla on Manu

I'm with FilipinoElla on Manu Ginobili.

Manu, like Pau, have had success, not just on the NBA level, but on the international level before their NBA careers and with the Olympics and FIBA. That's why Manu and Pau will make it. The same MAY be said for Yao. His success before the league and the ability to single-handedly make one of the biggest nations in the world to put their eyes on the NBA. Millions of Chinese fans around the world became fans of the NBA because of Yao, making him an ambassador of international basketball in the eyes of billions. With a 'B'.

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Criteria

Lets take a look at criteria. It can go in a few different directions. One thing I did not do when I started this thread, that I will do on my next version, is set criteria.

When you say players "like" Billups, then I am sure we are refering to him from a numbers standpoint. If we just add one or two pieces of criteria that can change the whole dynamic.

For instance, if we say all perimeter and wings need 20k points to be considered, then that eliminates guys like Billups, but keeps the Carter's in. If we are looking at a numbers perspective, then Vince gets in the same way Reggie does.

If we say all PF's and C's need at least 10k rebounds to be considered, well then Wallace is in and Webber out.

Now, the criteria I think that is most important from the HOF perspective is, how GOOD a player actually was...this is measured by a couple of things. Realize when we set this criteria, this will clearly separate Billups from other players, including Reggie.

A player is deemed good by his All-NBA selections, would you agree? Lets put in the criteria that no one gets considered that has not made All-NBA first or second team.

Well, there goes Reggie.

Another criteria is, the player must have cracked the top 10 in MVP voting. This is not even close, Reggie received votes only for 2 seasons, he was never higher than 13th. Billups on the other hand finished in the top 6 twice, that is usually the mark of an elite player. Billups did make All-NBA second team as well. Plus he trumps Reggie because he won a title and on top of that was the finals MVP.

so as I say, if we put in criteria for best players, Billups was a better player than Miller and he is still playing. if you put in criteria for numbers then Reggie scored a lot more than Billups, but by that token if Reggie gets in Vince goes too because Vince may pass Reggie on the list and do it without making as many 3-pointers.

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Reggie Miller

Reggie Miller:

What gets him in:

  • 18ppg, 3rpg, 3apg
  • Top 20 All Time Scoring
  • 5-time All-Star. 3-time all NBA.
  • #2 All-Time 3pt Field Goals Made
  • 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
  • Led the league in FT% 5 times
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 190

What keeps him out:

  • career averages good but not great
  • never higher than 3rd Team All-NBA
  • low rebound total when consideration is given to his height and minutes played.
  • although finishing with high point total, he only cracked the top-10 in scoring once.
  • playoff averages almost identical to regular season averages
  • never an MVP calibur player
  • never won an NBA title
  • participated in 3-point contest 5 times but never won
  • outside the top-40 in 3pt % but 2nd all-time in attempts

Reggie is a notoriously famous player and this could cause cloudy judgement when viewing how good he actually was. He was primarily known for being the most prolific 3pt shooter in history when he retired. That record has since been broken. Being in the top-20 in scoring and winning a gold medal definitely helps his case. What hurts him? He was just not a good all-around player. He had a playoff scoring average of 21ppg, but ever other catagory was nearly identical to his career numbers, insisting his game didnt really elevate to another level in the postseason...although he was particularly clutch. Outside of scoring most of his other stats are low considering he is 7th all time in minutes played. Payton and Kidd have more rebounds despite playing less minutes and being 3-4 inches shorter. Kidd has nearly twice as many rebounds as Miller. Being that he was so famous and infamous and provided the NBA with some unforgettable moments, he will always be a popular player, even if not well liked.

My Vote: IN

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@aamir543

its arguable that T-Mac deserves to go in before Vince. Vince played more but T-Mac played better. Once again, if we set criteria....say 25k in points, (which VC is likely to reach and T-Mac is not) Vince gets more consideration. If we say MVP calibur player, although T-Mac never won it, its not close as to who was better in their prime. Out of the active players on the MVP share list...T-Mac is #12. There are ONLY 3 players above him who have NOT won MVP yet. Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, and Dwight Howard. That tells you what kind of player T-Mac was in his prime. Ben Wallace, Jermain O'Neal, and get this...Peja Stojakovic all have higher MVP shares than Vince.

reference: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_active.html

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WOW, Peja has a higher MVP

WOW, Peja has a higher MVP share than Vince, lol.

But the way i view it, is that in some instances, If one domino falls, It could knock another three dominos down. If Grant get in, than you have to let T Mac in, and if Vince gets in, both of them have to get in. I don't value MVP shares a lot........ until you brought up the Peja stat. Hey, is it possible to make a case for Peja, and in fact, can't you make the case that Peja is more deserving than Buillups? But if Peja does get in, I can swear that at least ten more players are going to be in line. Lemme ge tthe Peja stats.

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Never mind, 3 all star games,

Never mind, 3 all star games, one all nba 2nd team, not really.

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^^^

well my point to you is, I think in most peoples opinion, Grant and T-Mac should go in before Vince, not the other way around. When I first mentioned the possibility of Vince being in the HOF, I got negged like hell. Showing that most people dont even think he belongs. If you are going by NBA, no you cant make a case for Peja really, but there is a new thread going now about International Players going in the HOF...and if you consider his body of work he gets in no doubt about it.

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the biggest things that help

the biggest things that help Peja is he is all time on 3pt list for makes and shot it at 40%. he gained most of his mvp shares because at one brief time he was considered the best SF in the league where I dont think Vince was ever considered the best SG. this is tricky because of timing...because Vince came in just as the Kobe was starting to breakout and Peja's best year was in Lebron's rookie season IIRC. Peja had a very short prime.

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the biggest things that help

the biggest things that help Peja is he is all time on 3pt list for makes and shot it at 40%. he gained most of his mvp shares because at one brief time he was considered the best SF in the league where I dont think Vince was ever considered the best SG. this is tricky because of timing...because Vince came in just as the Kobe was starting to breakout and Peja's best year was in Lebron's rookie season IIRC. Peja had a very short prime.

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Unless Peja chatches Ray or

Unless Peja chatches Ray or even Reggie, its a definate no. If he can revive his career by coming off the bench for dallas, and hitting 2-3 threes a game, and catching Reggie or Ray, than I see the posibility, but he has like almost a thousand more until he gets to Reggie, so........

Dang, Rasheed Wallace really wasted a lot of talent, I never realized that his stats were that low, compared to all the talent he had.

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Reggie Overated

I have been thinking a lot since I posted about Reggie, and I would have to say he is overated as how good a player/HOF candidate he was. Sorry Reggie fans, I hate to do this...I was a huge Reggie fan from his UCLA days. When people say Ben Wallace shouldnt be in but Reggie should, when you look at it, thats kinda obsurd because lets compare from what we have listed.....

If people say Ben was a specialist, then how do you see that Reggie was not? Reggie was a SHOOTER only. He wasnt a diverse scorer. He was a 3-point marksman. What else could Reggie do? He wasnt a good defender or passer. He made 3 All-NBA teams but never higher than 3rd team.

Ben was a specialist in 2 things, rebounding and defense. He made All-NBA 2nd Team 3 times! In MVP shares Ben is ranked # 20 while Reggie only finished his career with 3 total MVP points in 18 years.

I always say that too much emphasis is placed on scoring and this is an example.

Accolades:

Championships- Wallace (1) Miller (0)

All-Star Selections- Miller (5) Wallace (4)

All NBA Second Team- Wallace (3) Miller (0)

All NBA Third Team- Miller (3) Wallace (2)

add in the fact that Big Ben led the league in rebounding and was Defensive POY 4-times and I dont see how people think Reggie is better HOF candidate than Wallace and a lot of others out there. Without Wallace how good are the Pistons all those years during their playoff runs? We can safely say they dont win a championship without him. If we take Miller off the Pacers it dont matter anyway because he never won a title for them. Wallace's accomplishments are nothing to sneeze at, regardless of the fact that he was non existent on the offensive end...because he still was a winner.

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can somebody do one for

can somebody do one for derrick fisher?

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^^^

sure, I can do one for D-Fish, but he aint gettin in, lol.

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Derrick Fisher

Disclaimer: I am just doing this for giggles, I in no way think Fisher is getting in.

Derrick Fisher:

What gets him in:

  • 5-time NBA Champion
  • highest 3pt percentage in Finals History
  • 3rd All Time in 3-pointers made in the Finals
  • 2nd All Time 3pt % in the Finals
  • MVP Shares among active players: unranked
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 229

What keeps him out:

  • virtually no indivual accolades outside of the NBA Finals
  • 8.8pts, 3.1apg, 2.1rpg
  • hasnt scored 10,000 points in a 14 year career
  • no where near 5,000 assists for career.

Where Fisher excels is in the postseason. He is a winner with a huge heart. Individual stats mean nothing in his case. The HOF criteria is just not designed to let players like him in. As good as a role player as he was, he wasnt even the best in his era...arguably Robert Horry was. He made a difference on the Lakers team and would be a difference maker on any team as evident by the Heats pursuit of him. He is Kobe's sidekick and has been a damn good one but he could not muster up enough numbers to even appear to be a player who was irreplaceable...which he very well could have been in the Lakers system. If he was even considered...one stat that would shut the door on him everytime would be that he has some of the lowest assist totals ever for a full time starting PG who played as long as he did. His Jersey will be retired but that will be the closest thing he will ever see to being immortalized.

My Vote: Absolutely, positively, with a snowball's chance in hell NO. If he makes it on a ballot there will always be someone on there to go before him.

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Fucck!!!!!!!!!! I was typing

Fucck!!!!!!!!!! I was typing up a huge thing about reggie and Mullin, and i cancled that tab while i was switching tabs! Fucck!!!!!!!!!

Well look at this for your selves, both deserver to get in, my main point was that Mullin was amazing for 5 years, while Reggie was consistantly good for mor than a decade. Both have 5 all stars, Mullin has 4 all nba teams, Reggie has 3. Reggie was so good for so many years. But Mullin even made one all nba first team. Both are HOFers, Mullin on the first couple ballots, Reggie, 4th ballot.

Another point i wanted to make was Reggie was far more durable thatn Mullin, and he thrived off his late career sucess, he was freat in the late 90s, plus he is 1b in three point shooting, and was clutch as hell.

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I am fine, how about you.

I am fine, how about you.

surve
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aamir....

I am sorry, but Mullin was a better player than Reggie in his prime.

All-NBA 1st Team- Mullin (1) Miller (0)

All-NBA 2nd Team- Mullin (2) Miller (0)

All-NBA 3rd Team- Mullin (1) Miller (3)

All-Star Selections- Mullin (5) Miller (5)

Mullin was considered as an NBA elite at one point and Reggie was not.

this is the Basketball HOF so there is some consideration to college body of work.

Mullin had the more accomplished career, he won the John Wooden award and is a two-time Olympic Gold Medalist. He is in the HOF twice as a result of going in with the Dream Team.

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Surve While I do believe

Surve

While I do believe Fisher will not make it, the odds of him not making it are actually not that bad. It's not just about putting up numbers and the accolades but you have to remember, Derek Fisher is the president of the NBPA. He is a huge factor in the CBA discussions and the key leader that speaks for all NBA players.

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That said, there are many

That said, there are many guys that never played a minute in the league and made it to the Hall of Fame simply for what they did for the league.

Example:

  • Jerry Buss
  • Dick Vitale
  • Meadowlark Lemon

Still, I don't think Derek Fisher makes it, unless he is able to pull off a terrific deal in this CBA as the prime factor.

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^^^

Excellent point, I didnt think about that. That is something that should be added to his resume. There is no doubt about it...Fisher is one of the smartest and well respected players the league has ever seen.

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@surve, maybe I forgot to put

@surve, maybe I forgot to put that in after I lost my initail progress.

I said that Mullin's prime was great, way better than Reggie's, he made 4 all-nba team and even 1 first team. My point was that he had five amazing years, and other solid years.

Reggie on the other hand had a better career, he had 12 really good seasons, and was consistant. Also note that Reggie didn't play nearly as many minutes as Mullin did in his prime.

With that said, both deserve to make, all I was saying was that although Mullin may have been the better player, Reggie had the better career because he was good for a longer period of time, and he was durable, and didn't ge hurt as often as Mullin did.

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Buck Williams What Gets him

Buck Williams

What Gets him in:

3 Time NBA All-Star
1982 Rookie of the Year
13,017 career rebounds (14th all time) - Ranks 4th all-time in career offensive rebounds
Averaged a double double on his career
4 time All-NBA defensive
1 time All-NBA
2 time league leader in FG%
Selected for 1980 Olympic Team
In University of Maryland HOF and member of 50th ann All-Acc Team

What Keeps him out:

only 16,784 career points (12.8 ppg ) only good for 83rd all time
significant production drop off after his prime (only 7 years)
Never won an NBA title
Aside from Rookie of the Year, never won an NBA award, MVP, DPOTY, 6th Man
Despite great rebounding numbers in prime never lead the league

My vote: OUT

Buck Williams was a dominant player as soon as he stepped foot in the league, but his relatively short prime and lack of truly elite accolades make his resume come up just a bit short. Buck had a very good career, but I don't think overall he was one of basketball's elite and with every younger generation of more deserving canidates becoming eligable I feel he gets left out despite a very good career. However, Buck Williams is currently an assistant coach for the Portland Trailblazers, since the HOF is not only for players if Buck continues to coach and has a good career doing so that could be enough to get him over the hump.

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Tim Hardaway: What gets him

Tim Hardaway:

What gets him in-
Two 20 and 10 seasons
5 all-star games
5 all-nba teams(1 first team, 3 second teams, and 1 third team)
Finished 4 and 6 in MVP voting
Resurected his career after a bad year in 96.
13 in career three pointers made

What keeps him out-
Never considered the best for his position
Never considered a front runner for the MVP
Had good stats in a run and gun offense
His off the court stuff
Had really good teamates in Miami
Never won a tittle

My verdict- IN

He was a great player overall, had a great career, one of the few players to get 20 and 10 in a season, and did it twice, and almost three times, a good three point shooter, and because of how good he was in his prime years, I think he should get in.

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I thought about Buck, but I

I thought about Buck, but I didnt make a list for him. He was one of my favorite players, in college and the NBA. Slam Magazine ranks him #100 Greatest Player of All Time.

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Reggie Miller was always

Reggie Miller was always better in playoffs than regular season. Reg season he was an all star, but playoffs and crunch time was where he was a superstar.

Pau,Manu,TP,Dirk, and Yao will all make it due to NBA Titles(save for Yao), individual accolades, and international success. Couple that with what they did pioneering their countries to the NBA will eventualy get them in. Not sure if they're all first ballot, but definitely will make it in.

As for T-MAc, I think simply his individual success and being one of the pioneers of highschool to pro's will get him. Doubtful first ballot though. Definitely not like Kobe, KG, LBJ, and more than likely Dwight.

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Good to see Coach Jon on this

Good to see Coach Jon on this site, I spent many hours debating with him on another site.

As regards Jameson, I just don't see him being HOF, he has not had enough All Star games or had huge play off success and despite him having good longevity and perhaps getting close to 20,000 career points.

If you consider Jameson then you would have to look at say Elton Brand or even Zach Randolph for example neither of whom I'd say could merit serious HOF contention.

An interesting player to consider could be JO who has surprisingly low career averages yet was a year in year out 20/10 All Star for about 5 years in Indiana.

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