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HOF Candidates 1.0

surve
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HOF Candidates 1.0

Recently I made a post that sparked a little more controversy than I expected when I said that Vince Carter would PROBABLY get into the HOF. I didnt say he was 1st Ballot, but with his career as a whole I think he gets in. I appear to be in the minority here, which is fine, I just dont think my notion is a far off as some people make it seem. I know there were some threads here about this in the past few months, so we will discuss some of those players and perhaps some new ones. With that being said, lets revisit players of recent history who you feel that will or won't make it in the HOF.....but, what I want to do is target those players who are right on the fence in a lot of people's minds. Like, I may get blasted for saying this but I dont feel Paul Pierce is on the fence, I think he definitely gets in so he wont be on my list.

Add your own candidates and justifications. Lets have fun...and let the NEGS fall where they may! LOL

Vince Carter:

What gets him in:

  • High scoring average. Avg over 20ppg 10 out of his first 12 seasons.
  • Top 35 all time in NBA scoring and only needs about 2000 pts to crack top 25.
  • 8-time All-Star. 2-time all NBA.
  • 2000 Slam Dunk Champion
  • 2000 Olympic Gold Medalist
  • 1999 Rookie of the Year
  • 2 Final Four Appearances (if college is considered in body of work)
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 64 (source http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html) no one above him on this list has not or will not get in.

What keeps him out:

  • obviously his NBA playoff resume
  • the fact that he was never considered the best player in the league at any point
  • how much of a contributor or factor he was past his prime
  • who he has to compete with on the ballots (careers and positions)
  • good numbers on bad teams
  • never an MVP calibur player

in addition, there is no player above him in NBA scoring list that has not gotten in or will get not get in I dont believe.....closest being Ray Allen perhaps but I think being all time in 3-pt field goals gets him in. VC does own some impressive NBA and franchise records as well. Lastly, the operative word in HOF is FAME. At the heights of his career, VC was a VERY popular player.

My Vote: IN


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Tracy McGrady What gets him

Tracy McGrady

What gets him in:

  • Season highs averaging 32ppg (02-03), 7.9rpg (01-02), 6.5apg (06-07)
  • 7x NBA All-Star
  • 2x Scoring Champion
  • 7x All-NBA Teamer
  • Most Improved Player
  • FIBA Gold Medalists
  • One of the pioneers of high school players to the NBA
  • McDonald's All-American
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 88

What keeps him out:

  • Shortened / Miss NBA season (injuries)
  • No 2nd Rd. Appearance as active player
  • 18,108 total points

One of the best scorers in the league when healthy. His athleticism, length, shooting, and slashing made him an unstoppable scorer. Underrated rebounder and passer.

My vote: No

I have to be realistic, not just because he's my favorite player. He hasn't done anything out of the ordinary due to the fact that he's been injured. Had he been healthy and got out of the 1st round a few times, he would be a surefire HoF with 25,000+ points, 6,000+ rebounds, and 5,000+ assists. Too bad his only two running-mates during his career were more injury prone than him. (Yao Ming and Grant Hill)

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I vote T-Mac in but he is

I vote T-Mac in but he is another tough one because of his reduced prime. In his prime however, his individual accomplishments crush VC but his playoff history is the worst. I will post my Grant Hill soon if someone doesnt beat me to it.

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surve

" I will post my Grant Hill soon if someone doesnt beat me to it."

post it i agree with you on that, I also like the tmac and vc idea

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Antawn Jamison What gets him

Antawn Jamison

What gets him in

18,128 career points ( if he plays two more seasons he'll hit 20,000)
CAREER averages of 19.7 ppg and 8.0 rebounds per game
2 X NBA All-star
03-04 6th man of the year
Naismith, AP, and John Wooden player of the year in 97-98
Amazing college career

What keeps him out

Only 42 career playoff games, only advancing past the 1st round twice
Never really considered a #1 option
No NBA title
Never on an All-NBA team

I really only put him on because he very well could hit 20,000 career points and that is a major accolade without playing a ridiculous amount of seasons. Could very well be one of the most consistant 2nd option type players of his era. Do I honestly think he is going to get in? No, at least not on the 1st ballot, but I thought he should get a mention. I do think if he hits 20,000 points he may be one of those guys to get in years down the line when he's in his 50's or 60's, but still thats a long shot.

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Jamison crossed my mind but I

Jamison crossed my mind but I didnt view him as on the fence. Unless strong consideration is given to his college career he would never get in. He is in a special class of guys who were great college players to have good NBA careers. Had he won a championship with the Cavaliers that would have majorly helped his case. Waymon Tisdale and Christian Laettner are two others who had a phenomenal college careers and good NBA careers.

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Yeah, I don't think he's on

Yeah, I don't think he's on the fence now, but if he hits 20,000 points I think you can consider him there. He's just been a model of consistency for a scoring forward 2nd or 3rd option, but the fact he never was a legit #1 option or even on any All-NBA team is a big knock. 19.7 ppg for a career is a hell of a feat.

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Grant Hill

Grant Hill:

What gets him in:

  • 17.8ppg, 6.4rpg, 4.5apg
  • Top 35 all time in NBA scoring and only needs about 2000 pts to crack top 25.
  • 7-time All-Star. 5-time all NBA
  • 3-time NBA Sportsmanship Award
  • 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
  • 1995 Co-Rookie of the Year
  • 1991 Bronze Medalist Pan-Am Games
  • 2 NCAA National Titles
  • ACC Player of the Year
  • MVP calibur season (finishing 3 in votes behind Jordan and Malone) (I believe this was in his 2nd season)
  • Late career rejuvenation and contributions to a winning team
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 113

What keeps him out:

  • shortened prime
  • the fact that he was never considered the best player in the league at any point (but he was in the Jordan era)
  • who he has to compete with on the ballots (careers and positions)

Extremely popular player. Beat out Jordan in All-Star voting, proving his popularity. Extremely likable by the media.

My Vote: IN

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Carter, McGrady, Jamison, Hill:

Players that will not be in the HoF. Good players at one time, not great.

surve
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^^^

this discussion is about players who deserve serious consideration and have amazing accomplishments....not about great players or all time greats. if they were great we wouldnt have created this thread because their inductions would be a non-issue. I think Carter, McGrady, and Hill all have good chances and Jamison's chances will increase if his career continues to be solid and he can become a contributer on a contender.

next up....Shawn Marion...lol!

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i think a player that

i think a player that revolutionize the game should be in HOF? is Spud Webb in HOF? he has little achievements under his belt compared to the others, though he showed that Basketball is not only for 6 footers,

if he is in not it, I think he deserves to be,

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Shawn Marion

Shawn Marion:

What gets him in:

  • 16.8ppg, 9.3rpg, 1.9ast, 1.7stls, 1.9 blks (great numbers across the board)
  • 4-time All-Star. 2-time all NBA
  • NBA All-Rookie Team
  • NBA Champion (2011)
  • 2004 Olympic Bronze Medalist
  • Late career contributions
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 123

What keeps him out:

  • no All-Defensive Team selection (not sure how that happened)
  • played on one of the most disappointing US Olympic Teams ever
  • played on teams with other HOF and was only 2nd-3rd option at best
  • outside of 2011 championship, has never had stellar post-season
  • simply overshadowed not only by the best players at his position but by his teammates

Not a hugely popular player, one who could be easily forgotten through the ages. A role player and not a star by any means. As a small foward, only Lebron and Melo have comparable all-around stats in this era. Marion's career is not over and should he contribute to another couple of titles or strong postseasons, he probably will get in. At this point, although the championship helped him considerable, I still say he is on the outside looking in.

My Vote: OUT

surve
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@FilipinoElla

The criteria for the Basketball HOF is more strict IMO then say a sport like Boxing. Individual achievement is big but team success plays a major factor. I would like to add some players who were extraordinary or exceptional but not great. Maybe on another thread we can do Exceptional Players who were not Great. My first on that list would be Robert Horry.

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Reggie, Reggie, Reggie

Reggie, Reggie, Reggie

surve
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^^^

Reggie is not on the fence IMO, I am sure he gets in, he just didnt get in on his first ballot.

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Gilbert ArenasWhat could get

Gilbert Arenas

What could get him in

  • He scored 25.5(80games), 29.3(80games), and 28.4(74 games) in consecutive seasons.
  • His antics and charisma earned him the nickname "Agent Zero", and for a certain time he was adored by fans all over.
  • Was considered one of the top players in the league for a certain time period
  • Named to 3 all star games, and three all nba teams
  • Was voted the most improved player in his second season.

What keeps him out-

  • Two consecutive injury plagued seasons where he played only 21 combined games
  • The infamous gun incident with teamate Javaris Crinenton.
  • He never finished higher than 8th in MVP voting.
  • Other than the three sraight breakout seasons, he averaged 20 ppg only once, and that was 09-10 in which his season was shortened due the gun incident
  • Never shot a high percentage, was a volume scorer
  • Unable to stay dominant after his 20s.

My verdict- NO

But if he can turn it around and have some nice seasons in Orlando,(maybe 19,4 and 3) who knows?We all know he can play. Before he trade, in Wahsington, he still averaged 17 ppg, so he can still score. But his chances look faint.

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Ben Wallace

Ben Wallace:

What gets him in:

  • 4-time Defensive POY
  • 6-time All-Defensive team
  • 4-time All-Star
  • 5-time All-NBA
  • 2-time NBA Leader in Rebounds
  • 1-time NBA Leader in Blocks
  • NBA Champion 2004
  • #37 NBA All Time in Rebounds
  • perhaps the best player on his championship winning team
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: currently unlisted

What keeps him out:

  • low scoring average and total
  • horrible 41% for career from the line
  • never averaged double figures in points

Notes: Its like beating a dead horse but as much as Big Ben was an asset on defense, he was a serious offensive liability. He was not as impacting to the game as Rodman but he was a heck of a rebounder and defender. He helped lead a Pistons team that was devoid of a superstar to a title.

My Vote: IN

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Arenas

I like the Arenas post. Its just doubtful that he gets back to a similar level that he was on. He is not very old, if he could have some real good consistency, maybe he turns it around....but like you said...not likely.

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Thanks, but about Reggie,

Thanks, but about Reggie, WTF! How does he not even get on to the frickin ballot! If he gets on though, I think he will make it, but man, that is screwed up.

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the only player listed above

the only player listed above that might get in is Ben Wallace...

whoever put Gilbert Arenas is an idiot...and Shawn Marion??? smh

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i dont think ben wallace will

i dont think ben wallace will ever get in..people look at rodman entrance in the hall of fame and assume big ben will also get in..but rodman did it for a decade..big ben wont get in becuz he only did it in a 4 or 5 year span..and he was 1 dimensional,with way too many weaknesses..in detroit he got away with it..becuz he was in a system that fitted him.....If he had continued with the pistons,he might've gotten in..but after he left there his weaknesses were really exposed...plus injuries slowed him...

jamison & shawn marion wont get in..there are 100's of player with stats similar to theirs..

gilbert arenas wont get in..

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@Bmore_DC, It says that

@Bmore_DC, It says that Arenas won't get in, and you are right, he won't as of now. But like I say, you can't close the door on anybody. Seven years ago, if you said "Steve Nash will be a Hall Of Famer" You would have bee arrested for stupidity. At the time he signed with Pheonix, he was only 30 years old. Glibert is still 29!

So while the answer may obviously be no for now, you can never be for sure. Didn't Grant Hill seem like a surefire bet when he signed with Orlando, now we have him on the outside looking in. Anything is possible......

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^^^

thank you. we are just discussing here. I said that Marion is NOT as of right now. we are just name-dropping here with people who are in the realm of possibility. you cant shut the door an anybody. also, I think the popular misconception is that EVERY single player that gets in the HOF has to be a GREAT player. that is the perception we are trying to dispell here.

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@rudeboy

excellent points, and maybe Big Ben doesnt get in, if he does it will be on the strength of those 5 years....but those 5 years were really strong and he was an integral part in that championship, either him or Billups was the best player on that team.

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how in the blue hell is

how in the blue hell is stockton 70 on this list when he leads the nba all time in 2 different major statistical categories, and furthermore how is he below ray allen, vince carter and paul pierce is just laughable.

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I was just going over some

I was just going over some stats and Shawn Marion is 37th in career steals and 31st in all time steals per game. He's had 68 and 69 the past two seasons. Hypothetically, If he plays 2 or 3 more years and tallies 130 more he'll be in the top 25 in all time steals.

Also, I can't believe how many people think Jamison should get in. I voted him out for the even if he hits 20,000 career points, but a lot of people disagree. I'd like to know why any of you think he should get in?

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Chauncey Billups

Chauncey Billups:

What gets him in:

  • 15.5ppg, 5.6ast, 2.9rpg
  • 2-time All-Defensive team
  • 5-time All-Star
  • 3-time All-NBA
  • NBA Champion (2004)
  • NBA Finals MVP (2004)
  • 5th All-Time 3pt FGs made
  • 4th All-Time FT %
  • 39th All-Time Assists
  • NBA Sportsmanship Award (2009)
  • NBA Citizenship Award (2008)
  • perhaps the best player on his championship winning team
  • still producing at a high level past his prime
  • Led Colorado Buffaloes to 1st NCAA tourney win in over 30 years
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 133

What keeps him out:

  • never considered the best at his position
  • not enough separation between himself and teammates as he almost always played with multiple All-Stars
  • missed out on playing on 2008 Olympic Team

Notes: The one thing to me that stands out about Billups is, in his prime and even after, his presence or absence was always felt on his teams. Look at the direction Detroit went after losing him...look at the success Denver had when gaining him. His stats are not eye-popping but his contributions are unmistakable and for that reason, he has been more of the Fat Lever of his era. Because he has played at such a consistent level and was a Finals MVP....a player with his popularity may be able to get in. He was well liked by fans and teammates, which means years from now, he will probably be remembered well as "Mr Big Shot"

My Vote: IN

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Very entertaining

Very entertaining suggestions, often the HOF voters look to honour teams from a certain period so I think there might be a strong case for one of the Detroit 2004-08 team to get in and essentinally someone from their Championship year so it may come down to Big Ben or Billups.

Honestly I cannot see a lot to chose between them, of course another good season or two for Billups could help his cause and also you have to consider the players who may be in front of them in the HOF running. Billups would logically be behind both Nash and Kidd and Big Ben would be in with the likes of KG, Tim Duncan etc if they retire at the same time and also the likes of Lonzo Mourning and Mount Mutombo could have equal claims like Big Ben.

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Long Time No Talk

What's up man this is Coach Jon from draftexpress. Used to go back and forth on there everyday haven't seen your name in a long time hope you are doing well.

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@JoeWolf1

I dont think Jamison will get in even with the 20k points, but it depends on how many more years he has as a quality contributor to a title team or contender. If he goes over 20k and is a reliable 2nd or 3rd option....ehhh, I still dont know. What really hurts him is, although his stats are good, he has never been considered an NBA elite, never cracking the top 10 in MVP voting. He hasnt had much playoff success and he also racked up a lot of pts and rebounds while playing for bad teams. He has never been a very popular/superstar level player either. We dont think he will get in but we are just offering his career info as a probability....which at this stage of his career, is low. He wouldve had a great chance had that Cavs team been able to win a couple of titles with him as the 2nd option.

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@Hitster

that is important criteria...who that player has to beat out for a ballot. Big Ben will be in a long line behind KG, Duncan, Mourning and Mutombo. great point.

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Surve, I agree with

Surve, I agree with everything you said about him, I said much of the same things in my post, and again even if he hits 20,000 he's an extreme long shot, but when someone neg's my analysis of why I don't think he should get in the HOF, I assume it's because they think he should get in.

And I was curious to hear an arguement of why they disagreed or thought he should get in.

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@chevilicous

in regards to Stockton, the probability chart is not saying who should get in but their probability to get in based on the formula which follows pattern of the HOF selection process. Its not that bad of a predictor actually. As read in the explanation of the probability chart, "Other than height, all of the predictors had positive coefficients."

The shorter a player is and the more his numbers stand out makes them stand out, but it can also work against them. It is often stated that the best man under 6'1" is Iverson, and as reflected he has the highest probability out of anyone under that height. Isiah and Cousy being above Iverson is appropriate. Big Ben is not even on the list...at first I was like "what?" but after reading, I see why...for a player of his height, the probability is just not there because his numbers are not huge. His scoring numbers are feeble, and he was not as good of a rebounder as Rodman, nor was he as good a rebounder or shot blocker as Mutombo. All of them had low scoring output but like my man said above....Wallace's prime was shorter than Rodman or Mutombo, therefore his probability should be lower. This is why RUDEBOY's point about Ben not getting in is an excellent one if you go by the chart and their prime years. Basically what I am saying is, if Big Ben averaged 2 or 3 more ppg, he would likely get in with no problem.

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JoeWolf

yeah, I am a Jamison fan, he had a great college career and turned out to be a good NBA player, but as much as I want to make a case for him, I just cant. He is not an HOFer and probably never will be. What do you think about Grant Hill?

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I honestly want to say Grant

I honestly want to say Grant Hill should get in, but this might be a bit of a personal bias because I love the fact he's had a late career resurgance after just about everyone thought he was following the route of Penny Hardaway. He had 33 points as a 38 year old man.

When you sit down and look at the numbers I think he's out right now, but I think he has at least 2 more years left in his tank when you look at his 2010-11 season and the fact he's one of those guys who keeps his body in great shape, and IF he can find his way onto a better team and win a title...I think that is enough to get him in, but right now as much as I want to say yes I have to say no.

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The only one I would even remotely consider is

Grant Hill.

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Jamison doesn't get in unless

Jamison doesn't get in unless he gets 18 and 7 for about 2-3 more years, and even then, I would only consider him.

If Hill continues to play like this for two more years, I think he will get in, and if not, I still think he will be strongly considered. Don't his Duke years count for any thing.

And am I the only one who is having computer issues, caue the cursor is lagging when I type.

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error

I left a line in for Grant Hill that was from VC's accomplishments about the top 35 scoring (I cut and pasted my template). Grant has only scored just over 16,000 points for his career.

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Jamison aint gettin in...lets

Jamison aint gettin in...lets be clear...his chance was when Lebron was with the Cavs, if the Cavs couldve won a couple of championships with him getting his averages and being a #2 option, he couldve gotten good consideration. Now, he would be lucky if he was to a) get on a contender b) be that team's 2nd option c) play a high level and stay injury free d) win one or two championships. he would need to do all of the above. the foundation for HOF is there, as with the others listed here, he just hasnt set himself apart from the crowd.

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What about Ginobli, rather

What about Ginobli, rather than create the bullets can we discuss it.

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The other day I was reading

The other day I was reading an ESPN article about what Euro players should get in, and which ones shouldn't. They were all saying that Ginobli will, but maybe for Gasol! I love both of them, and personally, we will see a bunch of Durants and Jameses and Koebes before we see another Ginobli.( I am not saying that finding anther Durant or James or Kobe is easy, it is incredibly hard, because there is like 1or 2 a generation, but my point is that a player like Ginobli is extremely rare.) But if Ginobli gets in, Gasol is a definate. Perswonally, I think Gasol will get in on the second or third, maybe fourth, and Ginobli eventually, but on the later tries.

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Chris Webber (lets move back up the probability list)

after Vince Carter on the probability list....not including young players like James, Wade, Paul, etc...and active or recently retired players I dont believe are on the fence like Pierce, Allen, Payton, etc... comes CWeb. Lets take a look.

Chris Webber:

What gets him in:

  • 20ppg, 9.8rpg, 4.2ast, 1.5stls, 1.5blks
  • 5-time All-Star
  • 5-time All-NBA
  • 1994 NBA Rookie of the Year
  • NBA Rebound Champ (1999)
  • #1 Overall Pick (1994)
  • Legitimate MVP candidate
  • Had his jersey retired by Sacramento
  • where it will hurt Ben Wallace will be viewed as a Center, CWeb will be in as a foward
  • Current HOF Probability Ranking: 80

What keeps him out:

  • Injuries took a large chunk out of his minutes.
  • played less than 65 games in five separate seasons
  • although he had good playoff success, he fell short in getting to the finals
  • soft label and choker label from college days may always stick to him, albeit unfair...as his team could get past O'Neal and the Lakers.

One of only 6 players to avg 20ppg, 10rpg, and 4.2 asts. Webber was a difference maker as evident with his playoff runs with Golden State, Washington, and Sacramento. All 3 of those teams had very few playoff appearances before or after Webber played for them. Their rare appearances and success was during his tenure with them. The key about Webber is, if you are going by the probability chart, he had a good 5 year run just as Big Ben. Ben has the title, but CWeb's numbers are much better and he was a legitimate MVP. I voted Wallace in, and with that, I would have to put CWeb in. I think CWeb's probability is higher than Big Ben's once again because Webber is one of the best PF's to play, its just that he didnt play very much for a player who's career spanned from 93' to 08'

My Vote: IN

surve
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I thought about Manu, and he

I thought about Manu, and he is one of the best 6th men of all times which makes him an exceptional if not great player. I dont think he gets in before Gasol, but lets discuss it.

His credentials are solid, 3x NBA champ, and 2x All NBA, 6th man of the year, and All Rookie selection works in his favor. Only 2 All Star appearances and playing on a team that wasnt wildly popular didnt do anything to help his popularity.

Could Gasol win without the Lakers is the big question, so if Gasol doesnt get in, then I dont see Manu getting in.

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I thought Webber was a lock?

I thought Webber was a lock?

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But forget about Gasol, I

But forget about Gasol, I think he will get in eventually, about Manu, if he has two more18 5 and 3 years, does that solidify his chances?

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I think Manu can get in.

I think Manu can get in. Yes, I think so if he can produce like that and they are still contenders, or whoever he is with, mainly because he was one of the best at his class, a 6th man. To not be a full time starter for a lot of your career with his accomplishments, he can make it.

I didnt think Webber was a lock, but I started thinkin after I posted about Big Ben, I am thinking CWebb has to get in before him, lol.

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Ya, but honestly when Ginobli

Ya, but honestly when Ginobli retires, I am really going to miss him, because he was just so unique. From catching a bat to making a bunch of fancy plays without trying to showboat or anything, I Hope he continues to play well.

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Surve Not to mention, Chris

Surve

Not to mention, Chris Webber had great high school and college success when it comes to basketball. I'm sure they'll take that into consideration as well.

Great thread, very original and intellectual. One of the best I've seen.

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Yeah, I agree, and hats off

Yeah, I agree, and hats off to Surve for keeping it alive but I'm till not done........................................

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Honestly, I don't think

Honestly, I don't think Buillups is going to get in, neither is Ben Wallace. The problem is, if you let in Chauncey, you gotta let in so many other guys. And you want to make the credentials as specific as posible.

Hold up a minute while i take a look at some other guys.

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i will close the door on

i will close the door on Gilbert Arenas...im sorry...he will NEVER sniff the hall of fame

Manu will def be in the hall of fame, not just for what he did in the NBA but what he did world-wide for basketball (euro-league mvp, argentina gold medal)

if Yao gets in the hall then Manu should DEF be in

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