Has Parker finally overtaken Wiggins?
After watching the champions classic I still felt as though Wiggins was the better pro despite Parker outplaying him. However after watching today's freshmen bonanza I believe Parker will be the better pro. To be elite in the NBA you have to have an elite isolation game and although I believe Wiggins will be an above average ISO player, I just wonder why Gm's will gamble on Wiggins' development when they can draft Parker who is already an elite ISO player.
I don't quite understand what's going on.
Everyone knew from the start that Parker is much more polished and ready than Wiggins. But after a couple of games, people seem shocked and write that "Parker is much more polished and ready than Wiggins"? Well yes, we all noticed! What did you guys expect?
This has been done to death but why not. The thinking is that 'their' team will be the one to help his skills game when he gets to the NBA. No matter how much air alert or plyometrics Parker does he will (proobably)never match Wiggins quick step and second jump ability yet alone just vert. If we look back at a guy like Vince Carter cam,e in with a strong forst step but limited jumpp shooting ability and no handle to speak of. By his second year Vince totally refined his handle and with time his jumpshot while maitaining his natural ath;etic gifts. Same with Durant look at his iso game now compared to as a rookie or even at Texas hes crossing over in traffic, splitting defenders and all sorts. Paul George is another one his iso game has come on leaps and bounds.
The defensive potential is huge factor too as he has the quickness length and elevation to really harass opposing shooter especially on a jump shots which is kinda rare or an elite skill.
Is a worthwhile gamble imo.
Players developing more skill is a given. Players developing enough skill and the mentality to become superstars is not a given.
For every example of players you name who took their ideal raw tools and developed into a superstar, I can give a large number of examples of players who didn't. Scouts watch these games for a reason. If athleticism and physical tools were all that mattered, if those were the ultimate trump card, then scouts wouldn't care about these games as much and they'd put more stock into the combine, which is not the case. How a player actually PLAYS the game matters.
ballerway nailed it in my opinion. Yes, Parker is a better iso player right now. But all the Wiggins critics (not saying they're haters, because some of the criticism is warranted) are pointing out that he's basically only scoring in transition and on cuts to the hoop... he's still scoring almost as much each game as Jabari. Jabari simply has to work harder than Wiggins to score because Wiggins has so many natural gifts in terms of both athleticism and reading the game and knowing when and where to cut. Then you see him break out his spin move that he loves, and GMs see the kind of potential he could have in his own iso game. For me, Wiggins is still the #1 pick, with Randle very close behind, and then Parker at #3.
This conversation is kind of ridiculous. Everyone who backs Wiggins states how you can't teach athleticism and Wiggins is the better prospect because of it. Thats crazy in my opinion because although Wiggins is insanely athletic Jabari Parker is a high level athlete. I think he has a little more athleticism than Melo and he is a perfect mix between Melo, Paul Pierce, and Grant Hill. Wiggins has the tools to be the next Vince Carter or maybe Paul George the problem is Jabari Parker probably has somewhere around a 38 in vert wich puts him at a prime Kobe level of athleticism. Vince Carter was like Wiggins insanely athletic and for a few years he was great but when his athleticism declined he is a decent player. People like to look at Lebron when they talk athleticism but its not just that Lebron is athletic he is also freakishly strong and big for his position. Wiggins does not have that. On another thread I heard that if Lebron went to college he would be just like Wiggins thats insane. Lebron would have dominated with his size alone in college not to mention his ability to pass the ball. In this thread earlier someone compared Wiggins to Durant and basically implied Durant wasnt an elite iso player coming out. For that person I would say go back and watch the tape. Durant entered the league as a rookie dropping 20 a game. Most of his improvements since college has been in the weight room and facilitating for others. Wiggins has the ability to be a great player but his window for greatness will be alot smaller because when athleticism tails of and skills are all you can rely on Parker will still be there.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I'd be surprised if Parker's vert is as high as you think it is, and he is not as athletic as Melo was when he was at Syracuse. Melo was far quicker than Parker. Leaping ability is probably a push.
I see a bit of Dominique Wilkins in Wiggins and a bit of Bernard King in Parker.
I think Parkers Athleticism is getting overlooked. I think because of his skill and that he plays at his own pace people think he is slow. This guy has been rising up for alley oops. Dunkin on people and blowing by defenders and people say his athleticism isn't there. Im guessing you all are the people watch him play barely back from injury his senior year. He is the guy who won't get injured much because he is in control and will put up monster scoring outputs while being effecient. I don't think he should be the first pick because he scores alot of point I think he should be first because he scores alot of points effeciently. I will go out on a limb and say he will be the best out of this class. I love Randles work ethic and drive but the thing is what he gets away with bullying players in college wont exclusively work in NBA. Wiggins will be really good if he works with Paul George or Lebron in the Off season. Paul George is exactly how I see Wiggins performing in a few years.
Wiggins would be Darius Miles 2.0 if he was able to go from HS straight to the Pros... He's a Great Athlete but he certainly depends on his athletic gifts a bit to much.. A season in college will no doubt help Wiggins, but I think everyone is putting to much value on the kid the game is still very fast for him.. Jabari Parker on the other hand totally looks like cool hand luke everytime he steps on the floor.. He develops a post game and he's a lock to be better Choice than Wiggins..
I personally just dont put much stock in someone's game at the collegiate level. The NBA is totally different. Its almost a different sport to a degree. Nowadays, you can take a guy who averages 12ppg and not even be the star of his team, like Westbrook and put him in the league and he avgs double that and makes All Star teams. Its just 2 different games. Wiggins dont even know how to play the game yet. He is gonna be just fine. Not saying he is another Lebron, but Lebron was not the most polished player when he came in the league, but who cares. Eventually, his game just matured like fine wine....but you were working with good grapes. I think the biggest thing you can take away from the college aspect is...how does a player's intangibles look? How does his IQ look. Just because a player has much more polished ball skills that doesnt mean he will be a better player in the future. Parker is much closer to his peak as far as ball skills, yet Wiggins is still in the same class as him as a collegiate player while being much more raw.
Ive been saying it for a long time. I have been super impressed with Parker from the first time i saw him.
I would take Parker. IMO he is the most forsure superstar in the draft. Wiggins is a gamble.
Jabari Parker needs to get more toned. He will be a beast. He already is and I think he can be even better. I like his solid build and if he works on his explosiveness then I think Parker's blend of size/athleticism will be just as effective as Wiggins'.
Parker has a skill set that better suits Wiggins. Now, if Wiggins plays the 2 then I really like his length and size. But, as a 3 he will be nothing special in terms of length, size, and height going against freakish small forwards like LeBron, Paul George, Durant, and even Rudy Gay, Carmelo (built more like Jabari Parker), and Kawhi Leonard.
Parker has a great offensive skill set. He can shoot the 3, score, and finish inside and on the break. He's also a guy you can run the offense through. On offense he is like Paul Pierce with Carmelo's size and finishing skills inside, along with some of Grant Hill's playmaking and intangibles. Just one heck of a player.
The extent of NBA scouting on the grassroots level is very limited. All the high level executives give a shit what is going on the AAU circuit, yes Van Coleman, Bob Gibbons, Clark Francis, Brick Oettinger are scouting and they are very good at what they are doing and there was not a consensus. Look Jabari was banged up all his junior year, fractured his ankle at the US tryouts and played with a fractured ankle at the world championships. In the final game vs Australia the game was close, Jabari came in and bang bang bang, the game was decided. Jabari was then scoped and out of shape til this summer.
And now you have Chad Ford and to a lesser extent Givony from draftexpress as media multiplicators. Both guys have no clue whatsoever and this time they got the idea Parker is not an athlete. Utterly nonsense, Parker is not a freak of nature like Wiggins, Vince or Dominique, but he is a very long explosive leaper who will be an super athlete on the highest level. Skills, Determination, IQ, heart, there is no way he isnot the best talent. Trust your eyes and not some written nonsense. Even I have no doubt that Randle and Wiggins are future Allstars, the sky is the Limit for Parker.
oh by the way defence matters. nobody on board seems to really care but wiggins will be able to guard 1-4 when people go with small ball 4's. he like playing defence that matters. he plays within himself and the system. no matter what people would critisize. if he was jacking up 20 shots a game shooting low percentage people would kill him. he stuffs the stats yesterday 13, 7, 3, 2 and his team wins easy and people act like he put up a donut. as it was said above anyone who follows high school knew jabari was better fundamentally that shouldnt be your argument. a gm's job is to evaluate where they think a player will be 5-8 yrs from now. I do not think anyone doubts wiggins skills will improve So when you argue wiggins shouldnt be #1 you have argue why you think in 5 yrs parker has better upside. the only argument people have then is if wiggins will get to alpha dog status game in game out. "it is not who winning the marathon at mile 5 its who crosses first at mile 25".
Good point choc. I think the defense question concerns me more with Julius Randle. I didn't see him hustle a bunch on defense against Michigan State. I also don't see the length (average length) to guard the really big power forwards, or the foot speed to guard the quicker stretch 4's.
If Jabari can get in top shape then he can guard 3's pretty well I think. Maybe not a lock down defender there but solid. He also has some size to guard 4's.
Wiggins can guard 4 positions on the floor? That might be a stretch. More like 2's, most 3's, and then a guy who can disrupt slower point guards. I could also see him blocking shots from the weak side.
Marcus Smart may be have the best "potential" as a defender out of any top guy. Big enough, quick enough, and athletic enough to guard point guards, with enough size and strength to guard some shooting guards. If Smart can lock down guys at either guard spot then I would consider him with the 3rd or even 2nd pick.
but...the one thing that holds Smart back is his shot selection. if it were better and consistent, hell, he'd be #1. I LOVE Marcus Smart....but I can see him being a player who could be a liability when his shot is not falling.
Parker looks great. There's no way anyone can look at him and say that he doesnt. Big time player. I still favor Wiggins...because when he makes a 15 footer, I think, next year that will be 20 feet. Likewise when he does a dribble move or cut to the basket. Everything he does he has room for improvement. I guess I am saying Parker just has a high floor already. Wiggins floor may not be as high yet but its very good. If he works hard and keeps his head on straight....how high is his ceiling? We dont know....but the working hard and keeping head on straight part is almost a given. Therefore I dont view him as much of a risk for a #1 pick.
I remember about a month ago, people were putting Jabari Parker at around #5 in super early mock drafts. I think they forgot that he was kind of a good basketball player.
Parker is a beast. He is obviously a strong kid but he looks like he has no muscle tone lol .. sorta like a smaller Melo at that age. When he gets that NBA strentgh and grown man strength.. Look out. He will be one of the top scorers and players in a few years.
Are people saying Wiggins is unpolished because he cuts and scores in transition? When I think of unpolished at that level, more recently I think of Kidd Gilchrist. I don't think you guys give him enough credit.
We all know the college game doesn't always highlight what you will be able to do at the next level. He doesn't have to score in Iso plays. College is much more rigid in terms of letting players go nuts like they will in the pros, especially on stacked teams.
The point is this.
Wiggins is more athletic than Parker.
But how do we weigh athleticism? Tyrus Thomas was super athletic, it didn't mean shyt.
When I see Wiggins using his athletic ability to blow by people in half court sets and in isolation, I will say "There is potential for him to be incredible". But all I have seen from his athleticism is alley oops.
When you combine athletic ability and skill, you get a great great basketball player. But he hasn't done anything athletically that has made me pause (I.e. Blake Griffin level dunking) and he has not shown that "oh wow, athletically he can just do things people can't stop", i.e. what Derrick Rose did at Memphis. Right now the truth about Andrew Wiggins that I almost certainly will get negged for is that he is running up the court, passing through the offense, freeing himself up on the baseline for some oops, cutting to the hoop, and leaking out for dunks. Basically he has been the super athletic rich man's Ronnie Brewer. That is what he has done in games. People who will neg me: I didn't say his NBA potential is a super athletic Ronnie Brewer. I didn't say his college potential was a super athletic Ronnie Brewer. I said that is what he has done IN COLLEGIATE GAMES to this point.
When I see the skills to go with the athlete. You have me on his potential. Right now its just athleticism, which Parker has enough of that his high skill level and legitimate iso-game make him a better prospect. RIGHT NOW. TODAY. Not predicting anything yet.
i was always a fan of Parker's game even when all of the scouts gms and etc...etc... prefer Wiggins, skill wise i will always say Jabari is my main man, but the potential is immense for Wiggins that's all...
Could we perhaps create one thread for this instead of having loads of threads dedicated to same pointless argument centered on 3 games of evidence?