The "Harrison Barnes Needs a great PG" Debate
Yes, I do know that Harrison Barnes played MUCH better when Kendall Marshall was running the point during his time at North Carolina. Hence, the theory used by many, "Harrison Barnes needs a really good PG to be effective." You can give me the numbers of when he was with and without Marshall. He was definitely better with Marshall at PG, but I think there is a slight flaw in the "needs a great PG" theory.
Lets look at Harrison's other PG's, shall we? Larry Drew was indeed not a terrible PG, but I think he was a back-up type guy. He was running a team that went to the NIT the year before and Harrison was not the only player who improved with Marshall taking over. Than, I am sorry, Marshall was the only PG on the North Carolina team this season. Even if Dexter Strickland had been healthy, that guy is not a PG. Stilman White, well, I felt for the guy, but I felt for the guys playing with him also.
Harrison would indeed benefit from playing with a good, pass first PG. His ball handling ability is shaky at best, he has a difficult time creating shots for himself. His shot is butter and I think that will make him a valuable scoring option, probably second or third, and maybe after a while first. But, I am not saying that he will completely struggle without a Rajon Rondo or Steve Nash passing him the rock.
As long as he has a PG on the NBA level who is a step above Larry Drew, which I think is incredibly likely, than he should be alright. Harrison has his weaknesses, which a good PG may slightly cover up, but I am not sold on him NEEDING a Kendall Marshall type to succeed. Him being in the likely 3-8 range will probably be a blessing in disguise and have much less of the spot light on him, as compared to being given the Kobe Bryant comp as the #1 HS senior out of Iowa.
Good post. Everyone would benefit from having a playmaker such as Marshall, but I firmly believe that Barnes will be a very good pro regardless. He's a handle away from being a consistent 20+ scorer.
Is this thread heading into the Kyrie Irving Cleveland direction? If so I like the tandem of Kyrie 1 Barnes 2 in that Cavs system.
Lol yupyup you used the same sentence structure when there was a thread about MKG it was something like
"He's a jumpshot away from being a complete player"
Lol just thought it was funny no offense tho
Haha I try to keep my posts fairly simple most of the time, and I don't really branch out my vocab too much.
I can name numerous players that have developed range on their jumpshot coming into the NBA. I cant with people that have gained "handle" from NBA practice. Its improved but one doesnt go from being a spot up shooter to Isiah Thomas. Even if Barnes did, he would still need the mentality to dribble into the lane
He really needs a PG in the NBA. I think Rudy Gay had more handle then Barnes did coming out of college. Barnes is a funny wing player. He can shoot. He can also work good inside. Thing is he lacks what makes a true wing player elite...his handle and mentality to get into the lane. He is more of a Shawn Marion or Andre Igoudala type of scorer.Not the #1 guy but like 2 and a half
It just dawned on me who Barnes reminds me of. The guy can shoot so to me he reminds me of Glenn Robinson with his shot but Big Dog had more ability/desire to work his own shot with the dribble
Carmelo reminds me of Big Dog more then anyone.
An 80s style small forward like Alex English or Mark Aguirre.
Those guys were solid scorers with smooth games, who also worked best with an effective PG getting them the ball. They weren't all-around SF's like Pippen or Lebron, nor as explosive as Dominique, but were very effective at getting the ball in the basket.
Barry Sanders' numbers dropped big-time through two games when his team added the NFL's best fullback to open holes for him. People said Barry couldn't run in a traditional fb/tb set. Barry criticism ran rampant. Then Barry went off for 2000 yards over the next 14 games.
Our sample size of Barnes playing w/o a dominant set-up man is way too small to know if he can develop without it. Barnes needs time to prove that he can (or can't) develop under circumstances that have rarely been present at UNC.
I don't think his ability is dependent on having a great PG. If anything, he was playing with probably the best PG in college, and despite that he still wasn't as good as he could have been, thanks to Roy Williams' system. It definitely helps, but lets face it- pretty much every starting PG in the NBA is better than Marshall right now. I'm convinced Roy Williams isn't nearly as good a coach as he thinks he is; his systems seem to stifle talented scorers like Barnes. Barnes will do just fine in the NBA, I predict he'll be a career 16/5 (r)/3 (ast) ish guy; he has potential do do better than that, though.
I actually do believe Barnes needs a "table-setter" on the offensive end for him to reach is potential, but I think he also needs to develop his mid-post game. He could be VERY effective IMO if he can get a mid range and low post game on the wings. My argument to the non-believers is this, he couldn't dribble during those tourney games, and he settles for jumpers. I think he isn't comfortable with the ball in his hands if he has to take more then 2 dribbles. IMO, when at Duke-UNC (1st game), he was killing Duke with those 2-3 dribble jumpers, but as soon as Duke forced inside attacks, he couldn't do anything, even with Marshall there.
It's more like his game needs development closer to the basket, but he needs a PG to at least make things easier for him, and I believe he needs someone like Kyrie Irving to be that guy.
He is a good player who can score between 20 and 25 a game for his career. Maybe he can develope in to a guy like carmelo (develope a great post game). Melo isnt a super athlete, or a great dribbler. And he is considered a top 10 player in the league.
sorry double post. I think that they need to make it so we can delete it when this happens.
Remember Wayne and McCants in HS were also off the dribble players but got to UNC and became glorified jump shooters... I just think UNC is becoming the old Duke... Taking talented HS players and making them role players... Which if you look at the product they've been putting in the league lately says that... I'm up in the air with Barnes but I will say he got a good head on his shoulders (like everyone in this draft) and should maximize his talent ala Rudy Gay...
He is a good player who can score between 20 and 25 a game for his career.
- Nah, that's HOF type nubmers. I'd say 17 to 20. Also, Melo is a great dribbler. He's also a big body who's actually fast when attacking for his size.
Not sure what he will be , we will know by next season if the ankle injury was the reason for the late season slide because he struggled before Marshall got hurt as well. If it was the ankle "watch the &$#%#&@! out" as another guy said , just not sure he will ever be a number option 1 because I think he is so critical of himself it is a detrement to his game. You can be a perfectionist to the point that when things don't go your way it can screw with your mind. If it was the ankle that was truely holding him back we are looking at the 2nd pick no doubt , if he falls to 6-8 and that ends up being the truth somebody is going to get a steal. The problem with Barnes , MKG , Drummond , and T-Rob especially Drummond is that it's hard to see who is actually going to be the best out of those guys. It's highly debatable on who will be best and I am a UNC fan , so I hope Barnes proves me and his doubters wrong.
you are crazy! Big Dog could score with ease, Harrison Barnes-not so much
Firstly I think that every wing benifits from a good pass first pg. He will for sure benifit from having a good pg his first year as his handle gets better. I think it won't be as important later in his career. Any good shooter that is average athlete has ability to get to the basket to a degree you don't have a lebron james type handle. Your shot is going to allow you to use fakes to get guys in the air and off balance, plus people tend to run at shooters which makes blowing past you easier. The thing is you wonder with shooters. Will they fall in love with shooting? Will they be willing to go in to the paint and take the beating? Will Barnes become a specialist like glenn rice was, or will he become like paul pierce and be an all around player who could kill you all over the court.
Yes, he needs a great PG to be effective. He also needs to be in a offense that allows him to show off his true abilites.
"He is also some handles away from being a 20+ PPG scorer." Y2G
Do you have some weird obsession with me? Sorry, but I'm not interested...and I usually the girls I go out with know a little bit about basketball...
Barnes has a very small chance to get 20ppg per game if he goes to Charlotte, even then i don't think he will score 20ppg.
I think he will settle into a 14-16ppg scorer - a second or third option, depending on what team he is on...
Nah, But I thought it was an interesting excuse for Barnes.
It's actually more of a true statement then an excuse, but whatever.
this has been a popular debate this year. first I will start with what I disagree with....
Larry Drew was absolutely terrible. From a talent perspective, Drew is really good. He has a sense of entitlement though....his Dad and his Mom tries to dictate to their sons' (Larry and Landon) coaches how much PT their sons' should be getting. This was a big problem as to why Drew was in the lineup so long anyway. Roy never wanted to yank him because that would put him down to 2 PG's, only one being pure.
Drew was a player that regressed every game due to a serious lack of confidence. If anyone here watched him, you would see once he got the ball across half court....it was like a hot potato. He wanted no parts of it. You couple this with the fact that Roy Williams has no half court offense and only focuses on transition and running opponents in the ground made Drew and the offense even worse. Roy's only excuse for leaving Drew in the lineup at all was that he was a better defender than Marshall....and he really wasnt. With Drew, Barnes was at his absolute worst.
Inserting Marshall didnt make the half court much better except for a few cross-court passes, but what Marshall could mask a lot of UNC's half court issues because he was the absolute best in transition.
I agree with everything else. People say he needs a good PG to succeed, well, damn near every NBA PG is better than Marshall or at least as good.
Where Barnes will benefit most from is going to be the floor spacing in the NBA and players not being able to collapse so easy when he drives because his jumpshot will be money. Once he improves his handle...and his passing for when those guys do overcommit or collapse, he will be a helluva player. He can be a cross between Paul Pierce and Luol Deng as a lot of people have compared him to.
There was a chemistry issue with Drew and the rest of the team too. While Barnes, Marshall, Bullock and others spent good portions of summers together, Drew spent his summers in Cali. Barnes and Marshall were roomates as well.
Marshall and Barnes are really close and have great chemistry because of the time they spend together in the off-season. You guys know, when we were playing ball, you could have a player who was more talented than your friend but you and your friend really played well together because of the chemistry and the comfort level.
Barnes is getting a lot of flack these days as everyone has tourney fever, I'm not drinking that KoolAid. He will be good but never may develop ball handling skills well enough the drive strong from the wing ala Deng. He doesn't really need a pass first point guard because he can create his own shot, its just from like 18 feet. He needs a back to the basket threat like Rashard Lewis had with D12. It doesn't have to be D12, just a guy who can hold the ball in the post and survey the D. Wall's driving ability with the possibility to kick and NeNe poised in the post to see if a double team is coming would be a good fit for Barnes.
He had a pass first point guard the last one and a half seasons. I wasn't impressed with that combo. He needs a point guard that can penetrate, either Wall or Irving.