[d-ravParticipant]

There’s a nice topic on David Robinson located a few topics below this one. In that topic, a few made their top 10 list on the greatest centers of all time. Looking at those lists, I couldn’t but notice that all (or most) had HAKEEM OVER SHAQ. Now I can’t make a valid argument on who IMO  is the better player because i began watching in the early 00’s, when Shaq was the MOST DOMINANT FORCE playing the game, while Hakeem was nearing the end of his illustrious career. But when comparing Shaq’s feats against Hakeem’s feats alone, shouldn’t Shaq outrank Hakeem?

 

[mookieParticipant]

 Hakeem by far was the more skilled basketball player.  He wasn’t the biggest center, wasn’t the tallest but damn could he hoop.  Shaq was a huge presence in the middle and he was great at what he did and was the most dominant center of his era.  But Hakeem did beat a young shaq and beat Ewing and Robinson in their primes, held his own against Kareem.  Shaq didn’t really have any competition at center.  

[d-ravParticipant]

Valid point. I never thought of it that way.

 

[dede21]

 Hakeem was better than Shaq or Jordan

[UNCbasketballbumParticipant]

 I miss the NBA on NBC theme song…

[UNCbasketballbumParticipant]

 It’s not really surprising you have negative 468 points with posts like that.

[aamir543Participant]

I always have Shaq number 2 on the All-Time Centers list behind Kareem, but I’m really flexible and I would accept a list with Hakeem ahead, but I was a bit perplexed when I saw Moses ahead of him on one list.

[dede21]

 Michael Jordan could not even dream of winning an NBA title with the ’94 Rockets roster, the teams he played on early in his career before Phil and Scottie had way more personnel than those teams.  Basketball is a big mans game Olajuwon was nearly equal to Jordan on offense but if you factor in defense Olajuwon is clearly better to anyone that has a clue.

When Jordan came out of retirement he did not have Horace Grant that is why he didn’t win.  Hakeem would of coasted to the title if you give him Pippen, Kukoc, and Jud Beuchler, and Ron Harper.  If Olajuwon played on Michael Jordan’s teams in place of him he probably would of won 14 straight titles.

[goneParticipant]

aamir don’t be a pansy call me out. Malone had some monster seasons including a 31 and 15 year, 3 MVPS and coming straight from high school I feel likes its a toss up and Shaq after his Miami Championship was basically useless

[bloodshyParticipant]

If the choice was which player was more dominant at the peak of their career, I’d give it to Shaq.  The man was a bull.  His size made him such a force.  However, the Dream was so incredibly skilled that he was at top form for sooooo long.  So I’d take the Dream’s overall career, but Shaq’s peak 3-5 years.

[goneParticipant]

^ That is not true. Shaq’s second year in the NBA he avg 29 and 13 so when does Shaq peak start? 20 and 10 for 13 straight years. Hakeem 20 and 10 for 13 years also.

[mosdefParticipant]

it isnt that hard IMO. The Dream busted Shaq straight up in the title game. He also busted another Hall of Famer in another series thanks to John Starks that game. Either way, Olajuwon has the tie breaker cuz he beat him straight up. Olajuwon didnt have a Wade or Kobe either, He got an old Drexler and Horry. Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith. Also, Hakeem could hit a free throw

On the Moses Malone thing. I too have Moses ahead of Shaq. Moses was Shaq of his time. Look at the dudes numbers but thats just me and I do have it close

[doubledribblerParticipant]

I really don’t think there is a comparison. Hakeem is the better all around player. While Shaq is stronger, Hakeem in my opinion played better man d and was definitely better on offense. I have also seen Hakeem oblitherate Shaq. Even if it was young Shaq, that guy was pretty good. As Shaq got older and bigger he got away with a lot of putting his elbows in peoples heads and chests.

Hakeem played in an era with superior centers to what Shaq had. Hakeem basically played his best years in the MJ era. He never had an amazing number 2 unless you want to count aging guys on the end of their career. While Shaq had Kobe. Everyone always discounts Kobe for playing with Shaq, so why can’t you do the same with Shaq for having Kobe. Maybe it is just my bias, but I have a hard time putting someone over Hakeem that can’t hit a shot more than 2 feet away, has half of their baskets coming off of offensive fouls, frequently injured and out of shape, etc.

Winning a championship in Houston is > winning a championship in LA.

[cabbycabParticipant]

Hakeem could kill you in so many ways, it was not fair.  Jump shot, jump hook, spin move, fadeway….it was insane.  The deal breaker for me was when he completely embarassed David Robinson in that playoff series.  

Having said that I love Shaq as well.  There will never be another Shaq.  Obvious knock is he couldn’t shoot outside three feet from the hoop.  For that reason alone, I take the Dream.

[Killer_kat12345Participant]

 As you can see by my pic, I have been a fan of both… I first started to watch the NBA during the 92-93 season, and clearly fell in love with Shaq’s dominance. I must say that the OP brings up a great point. 

Hakeem was by far a more skilled "basketball" player. While Shaq was a more dominant athlete. 

This argument has been brought up by many people in the past, and nobody has ever come to a legit answer. 

With my love for basketball stemming from the Big man era of the 90’s, all I have to say is that its a damn shame that the position has died in our current time. The top 2 Centers in the league today are Dwight and Bynum, both of them would have been completely embarrassed in the 90’s. Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, Zo and Sabonis would have had their way with the talent pool today…

 

[ZeeProfessorParticipant]

The thing that I immediately noticed was that both guys were getting double teamed as soon as they got the ball in the post. How many centers in the league can say they get the same treatment? I really wish centers nowadays would have great post games like guys in the past, but it seems they’re just relied on to dunk when they’re open or hit open shots on drives by guards.

I do think Hakeem was better but I feel it’s more of a person’s own preference. I like players that rely on their skills more than their athleticism, which is why I prefer Hakeem. His post game was so great that players in today’s age still go to him in the summer to learn some moves.

Also: What’s with Nick Anderson missing 4 straight free throws which would’ve won them Game 1 of the Finals? 

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

I have Hakeem higher.  Here’s why: Hakeem made the finals in the most competetive era ever then had like no help and was playoffs every year.  When he won the title the first time, he had possibly less help than any title team ever and utterly killed both Ewing and Robinson on his way there.  His next title, he beat Shaq in the finals with, still, a less talented team. Hakeem beat Kareem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mutumbo, and countless other All Time Great Centers in the playoffs.  Hakeem was the far more versatile defender, especially against the pick and roll. 

Shaq won with another top 10 player ever, and with a guy who could end up top 20.  In most cases, against the best competition, his teams had major help from either the refs (in Miami vs. Dallas Wade shot an absurd number of free throws, and against Sact while he was in LA where a betting ref gave them the freaking series), or opponent meltdown (the Jailblazer squads).  Besides that, his wins were against far, far weaker competition (NJ, really?).  He wasn’t as durable as Hakeem, nearly, always seemingly missing games, and he protected the rim, but was never entirely willing against the PnR.  He had the greatest coach ever, and arguably the second greatest coach ever (at worst top 5) for his title wins.  I’m not saying I agree with all these criticisms of Shaq, but they are all there.  6’9 Zo was the only other real All Star Center when Shaq won.

Finally, there’s Moses.  Early in Magic and Bird’s career, I’d argue until around 85, the best player in the league was Moses or Kareem.  Moses absolutely abused Kareem usually, too, only the best center ever.  The era Moses played and dominated had even better true Centers up and down the league than Hakeem and makes an utter mockery of Shaq’s competition.  Moses’ numbers are dirty, better than either Shaq or Hakeem in his prime.  He was also a better rebounder.  He was, however, a worse defender than either, though his relentless motor made him quite the insane competitor.  Still, I always argue defense is as important as offense, so I have him just below Shaq, but only just.

[SpacegrassParticipant]

Here is what Shaq had that was greater than Olajuwon he was a little taller , about 70lbs bigger at the time they played in the finals Shaq was about 7’1 325 , just as athletic as Hakeem just not quicker, and nobody could stop Shaq from getting position in the paint.

Hakeem was the best defender as a big man I have ever seen and the most skilled offensively , he wasn’t the biggest at about 6’11 255 , he did have the quickest feet and best feet of any big man ever , Hakeem had 200+ steals and 200+ blocks in a season and remains the only player to ever do it , the guy had all the moves I can’t think of one true Center taking a guy from the mid range and putting a crossover on his defender and made it look effortless.  Also like another poster said he beat Kareem even though Kareem was pat his prime , Ewing , Robinson , and Shaq.  That is 4 of the 10 best Centers to ever play the game and if not for the Celtics and Lakers in the 80’s Hakeem would of won more championships.  The fact he won those two with as little help as he had is simply amazing even though Hakeem wasn’t as great as Jordan it would of been very interesting to see Jordan have to take out Olajuwon in the finals.  Olajuwon was the only guy that could of done it during the 90’s when Jordan was at his peak.

Top 10 Centers All Time IMO

1. Kareem

2. Russell

3. Wilt

4. Olajuwon

5. Shaq

6. Malone

7. Robinson

8. Mikan

9. Walton

10. Ewing

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

That is really not something I would be prepared to say. Let’s remember that Houston went to 7 games against the Knicks in 1993-94. That same Knicks team went 7 games against a Bulls team without Michael Jordan, that I believe would have been the odds on favorite to win had Mike been back. The Bulls were not the same the next year after losing Horace Grant to free agency, but who is to say a fully seasoned Michael Jordan could not have drawn a player to come in sooner?

Hakeem was absolutely fantastic during those two championships, but to say that he would have beaten the Bulls with a full force Michael Jordan during that time is definitely not a certainty. If you look at Hakeem from a skill set standpoint, he was incredibly complete and effected the game in a number of ways. Still, I find it surprising that people believe that from a career and individual dominance standpoint that Shaq is not the better center of the two. Yes, Hakeem did get the better of Shaq in 1994-95 (Shaq’s third season in the league, Hakeem’s 11th), but it was not like Shaq went down without a fight.

The fact that Shaq did not have equal centers to go up against during his prime years does little to take away his dominance in my opinion. Like Hakeem, Shaq crushed his competition. WizKid, to say that David Robinson was better than Shaq is an opinion, but I think Shaq had a huge competitive advantage. David Robinson averaged less than double figures for the Spurs last championship. He put up worse averages than Shaq had in his Miami championship during the Spurs initial championship as well. You also must have neglected to look at the play-off averages of the two players. Shaq: 24.3, 11.6 and 2.7 in 216 games. Robinson: 18.1, 10.6 and 2.3 in 123. David Robinson was a great player and during his prime was a formidable opponent, but he generally would get crushed when things were on the line, that was his rep. I still think he is in the top 25-30 players of All-Time, but Shaq and Hakeem he is not.

Moses Malone was a center I believe I would also rank ahead of David Robinson, but not ahead of Shaq. I believe I would take Shaq’s 3 Finals MVP’s and 1 MVP trophy (which I believe is a travesty that he has just one) over Moses’ reverse situation. Moses was an excellent rebounder, one of the better offensive rebounder of All-Time, but I think Shaq was much more of an overall force. He had nearly 100 pounds on Moses and while they never had the opportunity to play against each other until Moses was well past his prime, I think the edge would certainly go to Shaq. My opinion, but I do not think it is that much of a wash between the two.

To me, Shaq at his best made the game so much easier for his teammates to the point the NBA had not seen. He drew so much attention to the middle that the floor opened considerably. His field goal percentage for a player that shot as much as he did is one of the highest in NBA history, which I find pretty amazing. Even when he was "basically useless" on Phoenix, he managed to score 17.8 ppg on 60.9% FG shooting. His free throws woes were obvious, but his teams managed to get to levels that few would have thought they were able to with the lack of support around them. Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade were unbelievable helping hands and players were a part, but there were not a lot of championship pieces on those teams. Shaq was an absolute force with the Lakers, even when they lost to Detroit he killed it. With the Heat, his presence opened up the floor and drew enough attention for Dwyane Wade and others to thrive. His 4 championships are very impressive to me and even at his worst, he was still one of the best centers in the NBA.

He unfortunately never got the chance to face a truly "dominant" center in the NBA Finals besides his first match-up with Hakeem. My opinion is he improved a great deal down the line and became a smarter, more complete low post player. I have posted it before, but I urge people to look at Shaq’s head to head match-ups with the best center’s of his early career. He truly crushed them. I believe at Shaq’s prime, which was that first Laker Championship and lasted the 4-5 years beyond it, he is the most dominant center the NBA has seen. You may think that other centers were more skilled and point to Shaq’s poor foul shooting, maybe even lack of defensive accolades. Do not be fooled. He was a complete force and the best players of that time felt his wrath. Hakeem got the better of a young Shaq, which people will use to state his case above him. But, from a career perspective, Shaq was a more dominant force in my opinion. Know that some people do not feel the same way, but I do not think I am completely alone. Not to mention, I have this little survey I did on here:

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/nba-all-time-team-position-voting-results-1-5-and-voting-6-10

(Apologize about 6-10, just feel it was not working out and got little response)

[dede21]

 Shaq probably was a slightly better offensive player than Hakeem it is close, but Hakeem had a big edge in defense, especially his versatility against pick and roll he could guard 1-5 better than any player in history

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