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The Great Kevin Love Debate

Maniac Maciej
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The Great Kevin Love Debate

1. Do you have to be a "go-to" scorer to be considered a franchise player? (ie. Someone who can create their own offense...)

2. Is Kevin Love a "go-to" scorer?


surve
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You dont have to be a go-to

You dont have to be a go-to offensive player to be a franchise player.....but those players that fall in that catagory are few. To me, a franchise player has to be able to consistently dominate night in-night out in some form or fashion that directly influences the outcome of the game.

Whether Love is a go-to scorer or not, I dont have an opinion on. My opinion on whether he is a franchise player or not, I think he is or at least has the potential to be.

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Im just not sold on Kevin

Im just not sold on Kevin Love being a "franchise player". The guy has made himself in2 an oustanding player with the changes in his body and adding a terrific perimeter shot and his tenacity on the boards. However i dont think he is a centerpiece to build around. I think kevin Love is a very important piece to a championship team, a great second option type player. But i dont think he is a guy that you can build your team around, to me he is not the guy that you can say he could put the team on his back and carry them imo.

Mr. 19134
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Kevin Love averaged 17 ppg as

Kevin Love averaged 17 ppg as a freshman at UCLA a college infamous for hiding players true offensive potential and now he is averaging over 25 ppg on 46% FG and 40% from 3. He's 4th in the league in scoring! .... And people are still doubting his go to scoring ability.

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@Flagrant...The Wolves are 2

@Flagrant...The Wolves are 2 games outside of the playoffs and with Beasley and Webster back they are finally fully healthy. Ask Kobe about Love's ability to lead a franchise when Love dropped that 3 in L.A. at the buzzer to beat the Lakers. And with Love's numbers you can bet if the Wolves get into the playoffs Love will be in the MVP voting. So what more do you want from a player that's 4th in the league in scoring, 2nd in rebounding, shoots a high percent, and his on court stats equal more wins for his team?

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Given that there are 30

Given that there are 30 teams, and most of them don't have a player as good as Love, yeah, I'd happily call him a franchise player.

Now, I don't think he's a franchise player in the vein of a Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan where he can succeed regardless of who surrounds him, but he could be the best player on your team and that team be successful with the right supporting cast.

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When will people start showing

him some Love?

Maniac Maciej
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There's a difference between

There's a difference between scoring at a high rate and being a "go-to" scorer. Does Love have the ability to create his own shot, or to create shots for others by drawing double-teams?

He's something of an anomaly for a big man. His best offensive quality is clearly his outside shot, but unlike someone like Dirk, he doesn't have a great ability to create that shot off the dribble. As far as his low-post game, I'm just not sure he's the kind of guy you can dump the ball down to and count on him to put points on the board, especially against any above-average defender.

Certainly, he's not the type of guy you want to leave open 15-20 feet from the basket, so that creates some matchup problems, but does that make him someone you want to build your offense around?

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There seems to be a lot of

There seems to be a lot of misconception about Love's scoring ability. First off you don't averaged 25.5 PPG in the NBA by not having the ability to create your own shots. Just because ESPN don't show highlights of Love taking people to the rim off of 2 dribbles and dunking all over them doesn't mean Love don't take people off the dribble with 2 dribbles to the rim and kiss it off the glass all over their head. (I know that don't sound cool) But Love does have the ability to score in ISO abilities. In the NBA he seems to have converted to more of a jump shooter but in high school this guy had advanced post moves and could score at will on the block. He still can score from the block in an ISO but he don't need too when you can spot up and take open 3's. Love's game has always been based on efficiency he'll always make the smarter easier plays which is why he puts up 25 a game and players still don't realize how good of a scorer he is.

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@Mr. 19134 You're smarter

@Mr. 19134

You're smarter than that...

Love's numbers have absolutely nothing to do with whether he's a go-to player. He's not a Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade, LeBron James, Shaquille O'Neal, Karl Malone, etc. You can't run an offense through him. He's not going to draw double teams in the post. He's not going to create for teammates.

He's somebody who plays the pick and pop. He's someone who you can kick it to and know he'll hit the shot. He's a great shooter. He's somebody who gets offensive rebounds and putbacks. He's great at what he does, but he's no cornerstone. Is he a great piece though? No doubt about it.

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Not say he's a bumb in the

Not say he's a bumb in the low post, but just saying his impact doesn't really come from there.

IF you look at Love's FG% around the rim, it's in the low 40's. Maybe lower.

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"Ability to create his own

"Ability to create his own shot" --> That attribute is highly overrated.

Obviously it's important for a scorer. But there are many scorers in the league.... a guy like Ray Allen doesn't really create his own shot. But you cant' deny that he's very effective as a scorer.

Love's value is in his incredible rebounding, passing, and shooting. He makes great, efficient decisions.

He appears to be making great progress on the defensive end as well.

Love is absolutely, 100%, a superstar and franchise player.

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@IndianaBasketball

His post moves might not always score on the first attempt but you can bet that he will get the offensive board, because he is always working down low, and put up the second chance points. MN has got to be leading that category in the league, or at least in the top 10. Love beats so many teams on his second chance, maybe even third chances. Not to mention he's great at tip ins, just knocking the ball off his one hand when he's trying to get better position. He may not be the go to player to score offensively but they don't need that in him. They just need him to do all the dirty work, score efficiently, and hustle like his life depends on it. Which he does do all of that.

He doesn't need to be the go to scorer anymore because they have their go to player in Rubio. He may not score the ball down the stretch but he gets people open where they have the opportunity to score. Love may not be a cornerstone alone in the franchise but paired with Rubio, they most certainly are players to build your team around.

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@thparadox We're not really

@thparadox

We're not really talking about just being an effecitve scorer though. We're talking about being a player you can build an offense around. We're talking about being a player who you can go-to. A cornerstone. Love isn't a cornerstone, but he's a great piece.

@kngojc

I agree with you.

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In a strange way, Ray Allen

In a strange way, Ray Allen is a perfect example, especially if you factor in his defensive flaws. Obviously a great player in his own right, but are you winning a championship with someone like that as your best player?

I have a lot of respect for Kevin Love's talent, but when I start to hear him talked about in the same breath as LeBron, D-Rose, Durant, Dirk, Kobe, D-Wade, etc., I always think that the limitations in his game put him on a tier below players like that. For me, he's certainly a top-20 player in the league, but he's not a top-10 player, and I think there's a big difference.

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Like I said, I dont have an

Like I said, I dont have an opinion on him being a go-to scorer, there are arguments to support for and and against that as you guys have stated above.

I do believe he could be franchise player material.

I think you can build a team around him. My take may be a little different than some of yours, but to me, franchise player doesnt have to be Jordan, Magic, Lebron, Dwight. I say if you have a player who can have a dominant impact for about 7-10 years of his career, then he is worth calling a franchise player.

Say Rubio and either DWill/Beasley develop into elite talents at their position, they have a few more players that form a championship team. With that nucleus of stars....its possible to win a title.

Love is not there yet as his team isnt great....but I think its more of a testiment to how good the other top players are in the league.

Note: some franchise players never won championships.....Barkley, Malone, Ewing, Iverson immediately come to mind. some franchise players didnt win a championship til after their prime.....Jason Kidd. some players you dont know are franchise level at the time of drafting.....Steve Nash.

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If Kevin Love was African

If Kevin Love was African American, would we be having this discussion?

meirmeir13
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Ray Allen

In his prime ray Allen was a franchise player. He was a pieces away from winning with Seattle and the bucks he couldn't be stopped

IndianaBasketball
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IF Kevin Love wasn't white,

IF Kevin Love wasn't white, would we be having this discussion?

How does that feel to have that reversed? Message... Leave race out of it. It has nothing to do with it.

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@IndianaBasketball I agree

@IndianaBasketball

I agree 100%. Bringing race into account is just stupid.. The fact that he is white never crossed my mind until some A$$ brought it up..

Stupid...

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It seems like OP Maniac just

It seems like OP Maniac just has some really high standards to be a franchise player. If you are saying a guy can't be a franchise player unless he is clearly one of the top ten players in the league and you have to be able to run ISOs for him, then I guess Love isn't a Franchise player. But that also means that 20+ teams in the league won't have Franchise players by definition (Heat, obviously have two franchise players and Lakers could be argued to have two as well depending on how Pau is playing, certainly a couple of years ago Pau would have been considered a top ten player in the league). Anyway, it is a tough standard Maniac seems to be setting.

How about another Love debate. Who is better right now, Melo or K. Love? Maniac probably likes the fact that Melo scores in ISOs and teams run their offense through him. Me, I will take Love's efficient scoring, elite rebounding and average defense over what Melo brings to the table. Maniac, is Melo a Franchise player?

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I know it's ignorant as

I know it's ignorant as &$#%#&@! but there are serious studies about this.

Put his stats on anyone else and he's a superstar NO DOUBT.

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^Like Tallman said, our

^Like Tallman said, our criteria for a franchise player is too damn harsh. Many posters on here consider Blake Griffin a franchise player and "untouchable". Yet we could all agree that Love is a more complete player than Griffin right now......

They both have flaws. Yall argue that Griffin is still young and can improve on many things to fulfill his potential as a franchise player. Love can do the same! And he's better right now.

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Name Some

Okay then.. name some guys that are franchise players... Kobe, Dwight, CP3, KD, Drose, Lebron, Wade.. That is just naming a few off the top of my head.. Dwight is a no brainer franchise player.. but he doesn't create his own shot?? He mainly rebounds and has NO jump shot. But yet, Kevin Love, a guy who scores more and rebounds JUST as much is not a franchise player? Do you guys even watch T-wolves games? A majority of Kevin Love's points come in one-on-one situations either in the post or sizing his defender up on the wing. Yeah he gets alot of points off of offensive rebounds, but shouldn't that make him more of a "franchise" player? Obviously he isn't going to drive and score with the likes of kobe, lebron, rose or wade, but that's because they are guards that is their job. Just as you aren't going to see them put up games of 30 and 20 .. Kevin Love is definitely a franchise player and with Rubio there and Dwilliams they will be a force in the next few years.

IndianaBasketball
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@bennydabull But your

@bennydabull

But your argument that if Love was black, he wouldn't be criticized is just as bad as someone saying Love would NOT be getting this praise if he wasn't white...

Most of America is white and there hasn't be a true American born superstar since Bird or Stockton. A person could argue that if Love wasn't white, he wouldn't be being called a superstar.

I think both arguments are garbage and it's best to keep race out of it.

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Even though, right now, Love

Even though, right now, Love is putting up better numbers than Griffin on almost every stat, people say Griffin is better..

I think that if Love dunked more, he would be considered the best PF in the league.. The fact that he does it all from under the rim makes people think he isn't the player Blake is..

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Even though, right now, Love

Even though, right now, Love is putting up better numbers than Griffin on almost every stat, people say Griffin is better..

I think that if Love dunked more, he would be considered the best PF in the league.. The fact that he does it all from under the rim makes people think he isn't the player Blake is..

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My defintion is: A player you

My defintion is: A player you can win a title with, with him being your best player.

Kevin Love does not fall into this category.

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Right, so is Griffin a

Right, so is Griffin a franchise player? Even setting aside that he is a bargain on his rookie contract, the Clippers certainly wouldn't trade him straight up for more than five or six other guys in the league (partly because of his youth and the fact that some stars might be better but are obviously diminishing). So if your Franchise won't part with you for just about anyone else in the league, aren't you a franchise player? How about Melo? The Nuggets built their franchise and their game around him and now the Knicks are doing the same.

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Why isnt Klove player you can

Why isnt Klove player you can win a title with? People say Lebron, Howard, Durant, Paul, DWilliams are players you can win a title with, but none of them have titles. Love isnt a top 5 player in the NBA, but he is a top 15.

Whoever brought up the Melo comparision is absolutely spot on. People say Melo is a cornerstone player, yet he doesnt rank in the top 30 in the NBA in anything besides scoring.

Love is no doubt a cornerstone franchise type player. His efficiancy, rebounding, improving defense, and commitment to TEAM make him such.

Is he a "go to" offensive player? Maybe not, but to say he doesnt commant double teams is silly, he may not on the low block, but on the glass, people rally to him and gameplan to keep him off the boards, that makes players like Nikola Pekovic alot better. It makes shooters better because teams need to account for him. His ability to create extra possessions is insanely underrated, and the fact that he is able to average 25 ppg without NEEDINg to isolate or hold the ball or be run through should be looked at as a positive. Its easy to play with him because he doesnt require the ball in his hands every time down the floor.

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No Blake Griffin is not a

No Blake Griffin is not a fanchise player yet. But it's obvious he definitely has the potential to be one. Melo when focused in the most versatile scorer in the NBA and definitely a guy who could lead a team to a title, but he chooses to be lazy and not be that guy.

The purpose of basketball is to win championships and if you are going to put a franchise behind a player, they better be good enough for you to win a title with. That's a true franchise player. Kevin Love is not that player, and I don't see him ever being that guy.

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Biggysmalls. Are you kidding

Biggysmalls. Are you kidding me? You're comparing Howard, Lebron, Durant, Paul and Williams to Love? They have all made a conference finals for one. Love hasn't won 30 games. I honestly don't know how to take your post serious.

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lol at the chump comapring

lol at the chump comapring Love to LeBron Howard Durant. Sooooooooo dumb

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YUPYUP

You can't possibly know that Love won't be the best player on a championship team... you could surmise that possibility, but you could not know.

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You're right I don't know. I

You're right I don't know. I just don't think he can be. If I'm proven wrong I'll have no problem admitting it.

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Other than those who just

Other than those who just watch the 30 second highlight on ESPN or youtbe, I think most people know that Griffin is more than just a dunk.

The reason why I think he's better than Love is he's a better post player. He's a much better post player actually. He's got a great feel in the low post and an above average skill set. He's patient. He draws a double team. Good decision maker. Above average vision and passing ability. He makes the right pass majority of the time, which doesn't always lead to an assist.

I don't judge by just overall numbers and I never judge a player by his highlights. I just look at overall impact on a game and I think Griffin's is better. People won't mention it, but the last three games I think he's improved as a helpside defender picking up 6 blocks. He's averaging over a block per game in Jan.

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Indiana...

It doesn't really matter which individual player is better... it's a team game and a players fit is more important to winning than a list of how one players better than the other.

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^

Yeah, I agree, I think Griffin is a better player and definitely franchise. The only thing I worry about with Griffin is he plays with such abandon that he is susceptible to injury......kinda like Wade, but thats just the way they play.

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Someone mentioned Malone as

Someone mentioned Malone as someone who was a franchise player, but he was at his best when being fed the ball by one of the best passers in NBA history. He was good in the post, but he relied heavily on his jump shot and the pick and roll. I don't see Love being that much different in that regard.

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@IndianaBasketball

We've had this debate before about Love vs Griffin lol. Both are more faceup players but honestly I think Love utilizes his strength more than Griffin because Blake is a lot quicker and get around defenders where as Love has to go through them. Is it fair to say that their future somewhat comparisons could be Stoudemire and Boozer, both of which are good rebounders, good post players, and play for championship caliber teams? I think both Love and Griffin have more potential to be better than both of them but their styles of play line up. As for who is a better passer, Griffin commands the double team in the low post because thats where he does all his damage. However he has much better vision than Love so when the double comes to pick him up, he can kick it to any number of good shooters on the court. With Love you can't really double team him because if you do that, he can step back and knock down the jumper from basically anywhere on the court. Not to mention if he does manage to get his defender all the way down on the block, whatever shot he throws up, he's still crashing the boards.

I think the biggest difference between Love and Griffin is their motor. Love relies on his hustle to get a lot of his points (which to be honest, in the playoffs you might as well take off 10ppg from his scoring if he's relying so much on his hustle), but Griffin can just go down and take a shot and then get back on defense and doesn't go for his own offensive rebound.

Race shouldn't be applied to this situation but it kinda does in its own ways. Love plays the white way (under the basket, jump shooting, face up, blah blah blah). Griffin plays the black way (flashy dunks, above the rim, athletic plays, blah blah blah). Neither way is a bad way of playing but I think we can't fully judge who is the better player until the end of their careers where all it can come down to is who won more playoff games/championships. Both the Clippers and Wolves are on the up and up and I wouldn't be surprised to see both teams in the playoffs this year (Clippers for sure).

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I think what Indiana is

I think what Indiana is saying is that RIGHT NOW, if you are looking for a young franchise PF, Griffin is the one. Love maybe not there yet. Put it like this....Griffin aint goin nowhere, they are bringing players to LAC to play with him. The only player Griffin goes for is D12, and that wont happen. Meanwhile, Love has been the subject of talks, he is not set in Minny.

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@PurpleMonkey Ummm... It was

@PurpleMonkey

Ummm... It was asked if Blake Griffin was a franchise player and I listed why I thought he was over Kevin Love.

surve
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pureshooter.....

......uhhhh, which Malone? Moses was absolutely franchise from beginning to end. The Mailman developed into a franchise player. Either way you are way off by comparing Love to even the Mailman because the first thing is Karl was a GREAT defender and absolute moving train on the fast break.

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@ surve I was comparing him

@ surve

I was comparing him to Karl. Karl was a good defender and great on the break, but he was also a far less consistent 3 point shooter and a slightly less effective rebounder. I wouldn't classify him as a consistent "shot creator", but he was still a franchise player.

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Great points from everyone.

Great points from everyone. This debate is going to be interesting for years to come.

FYI I'm not racist, I don't want to be THAT guy on these boards.

Looking at it from a basketball point of view, it doesn't have anything to do with who's the better player...
I just think race DOES have an effect on our perception no matter what you say... it's wired in us.

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Indiana..

Ummm... Wasn't in any way trying to be critical of what you said. What I mentioned was how sometimes in a team game some of it becomes irrelevant depending on fit.

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puypuy

there are 30 teams. how many players do you see as a franchise player? players to build around? klove and griffin not franchise players yet you say? 30 teams.

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Unfortunately

Not every team gets to have their very own "franchise player" to build around.

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if i am blake or kevin, i

if i am blake or kevin, i will toss you in the basket

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@Indiana Why are we even

@Indiana

Why are we even asking Love to be a "go-to" scorer?

Bill Russell was considered the best player of his era. Was he really a "go-to" scorer?

I think we're biased towards scoring because of MJ. We all agree that MJ was the greatest player ever. How did he do it? Extremely efficient offense on a very high volume of shots. The ideal scorer.

But I don't think it's necessary for a superstar / franchise player to be the creator. Do you need 1-2 go-to scorers to win a championship? Yes. But I don't think your best player has to be that go-to scorer.

It's MUCH easier to find efficient iso creators like Monta Ellis than a dominant rebounder / shooter / passer like Love.

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invalid

30 teams don't win a title each year. Only a handful truly compete for the title.

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