The Great Hall of Fame Debate
I recently listened a new podcast from The Starters called "The Great Hall of Fame Debate", they talked about this years inductees a bit, but mostly talked about current players and their chances. They focused on bubble guys as opposed to the no brainers, which i think is much more interesting. No point in discussing the HOF prospects of Dirk Nowitzki or Tim Duncan in my opinion lol...Anyway here are some players approaching retirement that were discussed and my thoughts:
Vince Carter: Yes, HOF lock for sure. I'm sure there will be naysayers but any reasonable person puts him in. The numbers are more than sufficient, would be the best scorer ever not to make it if I'm not mistaken. The spectacular dunks, the insane amount of all-star votes, overall impact on the game, hell his longevity has been impressive too. Unfulfilled potential doesn't change the great things he did.
Shawn Marion: A reluctant yes...My initial reaction was that The Matrix is a player in a class just below the standards of the hall (or mine anyway). However after listening to the points brought up by The Starters (all gave him the nod) I was swayed. Perhaps the best rebounder of his era at the small forward position, and was a decent scorer, although played in a great system for points per game in Phoenix. What really makes his case however are his credentials on the defensive end. One of only 5 players ever to block 1,000 shots and steal the ball 1,500 times. And, he helped helped team USA get a bronze medal! (that's a joke)
Derick Fisher: Absolutely not. Great role player which are a must to win titles. I have heard people make a case for Robert Horryand other player like that. There just simply isn't enough basketball ability there with guys in that mold to be in the hall. I understand why they would bring up his name in the discussion though.
What are your thoughts, and who are some other names who could be on the bubble.
i would say no to all 3 of those. Marion and fish shouldnt even be close. As for carter, that is a tough one. But carter blew up real quick his first couple years, then just as the superstar talk got going, he almost over night becmae soft and started settling for off balance jumpers instead of attacking. His last couple years in toronto, he had no business making the all-star team and completely quit on them. His final year there, he averaged 16 ppg on 41% shooting and looked like he could care less. He was critizied for wearing headphones in warmups before games and refusing to take them off and listen to instruction form coaches treating nba games like it was pickup ball. He infamously told the opposition on a last second play what his team was running so they could defend it. He then gets traded to brooklyn and litterly over night became a different player. Went from 16 points on 41% shooting to 28 points on 47% shooting and doiubled up his ft attempts as he started attacking again. But by then, in my mind, it was too late. Vince had lost a lot of credibility as a competitor. I only saw him as a finnese prima donna after that, not a franchise talent.
WOuldnt be mad or surprised if he made it, but i just think the hall of fame needs to have higher restrictions then it does already and true franshise changing talents should only be in there.
I understand your perspective. Some very valid points, but I still strongly disagree on Vinsanity.
1. Your not giving him credit for his consistency as a scorer. 25,000 is nothing to sneeze at. Nobody else with over 20,000 is NOT in the hall. Mitch Richmond just got in, and if you compare stats and team success Carter's numbers are superior.
2. You dont need to be a franchise talent to be in the hall. You may disagree with that, but it's how it is. I completely agree that there needs to be high standards to get in, and maybe they are too low. I think if you look objectively at what he did throughout career, and look past the fact that it's frustrating as hell that he underachieved with all that talent, you will see how deserving he is. The stigma surrounding Carter as lazy and soft is really a testament to how talented he really is. Not a bad career for a so called bum, you know?
3. You cannot forget about the overall impact on the game. There is a reason guys like Sabonis, Yao Ming, Bill Walton, and Drazen Petrovic are in the hall of fame. They had good careers, but their impact on the game is even bigger than that. They transcended the game. I think Vince Carter is one of those guys. I mean come on, how could the greatest dunker of all time not be in the hall of fame??
I think it's important to remember that it's the basketball hall of fame not the NBA. The guy has an Olympic gold medal, which is better than a ring if you ask me, and most of the world.
Carter definitely should be in. There's no way I put Marion or Fisher in.
Carter was arguably the most exciting player in the sport for a few years. And his actual production is impressive as well, even if he never lived up to his potential. Not adding Carter would simply be ridiculous given his stats in comparison to other HOFers.
Fisher was never a high level player. He was often a weak link on the court regardless of the fact that he provided positive, vocal leadership. He would possibly be the worst NBA player ever inducted if he went in. The HOF would lose substantial meaning in my mind if Fisher got the vote.
Marion is very much on the bubble. Statistically there is clearly an arguable case for him when contrasted against other inductees. However, I think this is an indication that the parameters for acceptance should be tightened. Marion just is not what I think of with the HOF even though he was a very productive player.
Well said, I view Marion in much the same way. Shawn Marion in the hall of fame doesn't quite feel right, even though there are inferior players who already made it. It seems a bit unjust to leave him out, but It may be time to start raising the standard. Right now a third best guy on a great team has a decent shot at it. Maybe best two only? Or should it be reserved for the Kobe's or Duncan's of the world who can almost single handedly impose their will and contend for the finals?
I don't think Marion is in yet, but if he wins another title or two in Cleveland while making an impact in the playoffs I think he should get in. His athleticism has tailed off some obviously, but he was one of the best and most versatile wing players in the league for many years.
Also, Lol Fisher.
It's the Hall of FAME. And yes, Vince is an all time famous guy with some great stats. And, an Olympic gold medal is an Olympic gold medal. He was one of THE guys in his prime and made a bigger impact on the game than a lot of other guys.
I would agree that Shawn Marion needs a couple of more titles. Being an iconic "fourth guy" on some Cavs' title teams would help. You could compare it to Dennis Rodman. No way Rodman gets in the Hall of Fame without that Bulls three peat. Great teams get guys in the Hall of Fame. It helps. Marion can be the guy who puts the Cavs' defense and versatility over the top. Put another way if he gets two more titles in Cleveland, there aren't many guys with 3 rings and multiple all star games who are NOT in the Hall of Fame.
Since college accomplishments are factored in, i put Vince in. No on the other 2. A big HELL NO on Fisher.
Not to derail this thread from the three players in question but what do ppl think about some recently retired players like Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill. And also defensive centers like Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace?
Mutombo gets in and so does T-mac. Alonzo got in and he was never the player T-Mac was and Mutombo has to go in to just for his longevity and affect on the game. Also Vince is a surefire Hall of Famer no question.
VC should be in the HOF because of that dunk on Frederic Weis. He's simply one of the most incredible dunkers that we've ever seen. Now, that's not technically enough to get you in the HOF, but he doesn't come up short in terms of accolades. He's an 8x all-star, has an Olympic and FIBAS gold medal, he was Rookie of the Year, and a Slam Dunk Champion. In my opinion, he's Dominique Wilkins 2.0 and he should be a shoo in for the HOF.
Vince is a no doubter in my mind. Possibly first ballot depending on who is up when he is. For a few years he was the show of the season. Places would get packed to watch Vince. Similar to Blake Griffin. He had some good playoff runs in TO including an epic series against AI and the Sixers. Also like mentioned many all stars, International accomplishments, ROY, dunk contest and 25000 points with 5k rebounds and almost 5k assists. He is easily a HoFer. This is with injuries too by the way.
Shawn Marion is a yea in my mind. I argued this a few weeks ago in another thread. Just this season alone at ok #s he will be 18000 points 10000 rebounds 1500 steals and 1200 blocks. I can't imagine many people with those #s. I don't think system should even be considered. No he doesn't scream HoF but the way it is now there is no way he isn't.
Fish? No. I have friends who think he should be but no. Not unless he has a relatively successful coaching career as well.
"Not to derail this thread from the three players in question but what do ppl think about some recently retired players like Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill. And also defensive centers like Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace?"
No derail at all, I intended the thread to include other players not just the three.
T-Mac and Grant Hill are both in for what I think are obvious reasons. I think both were arguably the best at their positions in their primes, if not very close. Unfortunate health problems, but they both maintained elite status for several years.
As for the the defensive centers you brought up I think Mutumbo gets it, but I'm not so sure about Wallace. Now I don't personally think there is a huge difference between the two, on the defensive end especially, but in my eyes Mutumbo is far superior offensive talent that Big Ben. In Denver he was actually a reliable scorer in the paint. Not to mention his best years were in an era rich with good centers; Robinson, Hakeem, etc.
In his defense when Wallace started to receive starter minutes it was later in his career. He could have racked up loads of rebounds and blocks had he went to higher profile school to play his college ball and/or been a higher draft pick. Circumstances and exposure are sometimes a players biggest obstacle, but that's life and I don't think I can put him in.
If you aren't a starter until 'until later in your career,' you aren't a HOF in my opinion. I think that every championship team should get at least one all star. If I had to choose from that squad, it would be Billups.
getting those gold medals pushed it over the top for me saying vince is a sure fire hof the scoring numbers are on a hof level but imo winning gold medals is the highest honor in sports and those too me along with the high amount of points scored make for a first ballot hof
Mount Mutombo has to be in, he was one of the greatest defensive players ever - 4 times DPOY, 8 time All Star, 2nd on shot block list. Plus add in all the great humanitarian work he has done. The amazing thing about him is that he took up the game fairly late and was 25 when he was drafted, so you wonder what sort of career he might have had if he had been drafted at 20 to 22 years old. Plus there have always been rumours that Mutombo might actually be older than he says he is which would make his career all the more remarkable.
Vince Carter has to be in, I've listed his achivements before and others have above.
Shawn Marion is an interesting one, not an obvious choice but may be considered eventually.
Derrick Fisher - great team mate, very well thought of player by all his peers, has the makings of a great coach but not an All Star player let alone HOF worthy.
It should be noted that all the advanced stat systems love Shawn Marion because of the complete package of stats that he brings to the table. He also was plus defender. 16 points per game and impressive 9 rebounds playing usually in the SF spot, good scoring efficiency, and then add the defense inclusing a steal and block a game. Seems to be a good locker room guy and played on some very good teams. He is more than a good player, he is/was a great player.
But all said, no, I wouldn't vote for him for SF. He has been consistently good but he has never had a season as anything close to top five player. He wasn't ever even a second option on offense and it is fairly hard for a wing to impact defense enough for that to get him in. Unlike, for example, Ben Wallace or D. Mutumbo who could dominate the league with their defense. He has been consistently good, and that consistency is part of his greatness. But I think he needed to shine a bit brighter to warrant the Hall.
Vince Carter of course makes the Hall. He carried the Raptors and Nets in his prime and he continues to be effective. He should make the Hall for his dunks alone. But of course he was a big big time scorer.