[gopack10Participant]

On my local radio show this morning they were discussing the new NBA Player Rankings that ESPN just put out.  I figured I would start a discussion here on everyone’s thoughts (pardon if this thread has already been made).

Most of the discussion centers around LBJ being #3, ahead of guys like Magic, Russell, Kobe, etc.

I actually think that Lebron is a Top 2 player of all time, but he isn’t done yet.  I almost wish that ESPN would exclude current players from this list as the argument is always, "they aren’t done yet".  Guys like Duncan, Lebron, Kobe (to some extent) are still playing.  If Duncan happens to win another title then he might be higher.  Lebron could certainly pass Kareem if he wins another two titles and continues is scoring pace.

Of course there is also the whole "old school" vs. "new school" argument when comparing guys like Shaq to Russell and Duncan to Hakeem.

I’d almost like to see two separate lists, active vs. retired.  Then the discussion could center around where guys could slot in once they retire.

And I will say that Kobe being #12 is too low.  To me, he’s easily a Top 10 player ever.

[negguaryParticipant]

Kobe at 12, and Lebron at 3???? Kobe with 5 rings with the same team, and Lebron with 2 with two different teams??? I love LeBron, but come on! Mindless rankings and substance like this is the very reason ESPN is falling off!

[negguaryParticipant]

Kobe at 12, and Lebron at 3???? Kobe with 5 rings with the same team, and Lebron with 2 with two different teams??? I love LeBron, but come on! Mindless rankings and substance like this is the very reason ESPN is falling off!

[Kokayne_DawkinzParticipant]

 I mean to be fair Kobe has 2 finals MVPs and didn’t make the playoffs once SHAQ left. Kobe has one MVP Lebron has 4. Kobe is a all time great but Lebron is slightly better 

[Kokayne_DawkinzParticipant]

 I mean to be fair Kobe has 2 finals MVPs and didn’t make the playoffs once SHAQ left. Kobe has one MVP Lebron has 4. Kobe is a all time great but Lebron is slightly better 

[negguaryParticipant]

But you failed to mention that kobe has 5 rings. and even still I do agree LeBron may be better, but that doesn’t explain the disparity between where Kobe is ranked and where LeBron is ranked! Sorry!

[negguaryParticipant]

But you failed to mention that kobe has 5 rings. and even still I do agree LeBron may be better, but that doesn’t explain the disparity between where Kobe is ranked and where LeBron is ranked! Sorry!

[TWILL123Participant]

 This rankings list was a complete joke. If anyone actually thinks that lebron is the third best player of all time right now, much less ESPN "experts" thinking that, it’s quite silly and makes me question how they have their jobs. In my opinion you cannot put Lebron ahead of Kobe or Duncan, at least not yet. If he gets another ring, there’s discussion about it, and he if gets two more, then he is definitely a top 5 player of all time. Something about having a guy with a .333 winning percentage in the finals just doesn’t sit well with me. I think he still has work to do to get there.

[TWILL123Participant]

 This rankings list was a complete joke. If anyone actually thinks that lebron is the third best player of all time right now, much less ESPN "experts" thinking that, it’s quite silly and makes me question how they have their jobs. In my opinion you cannot put Lebron ahead of Kobe or Duncan, at least not yet. If he gets another ring, there’s discussion about it, and he if gets two more, then he is definitely a top 5 player of all time. Something about having a guy with a .333 winning percentage in the finals just doesn’t sit well with me. I think he still has work to do to get there.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 I actually have no problem with lebron at 3, even though his legacy isn’t complete yet. The guy is easily the most dominant player of his generation and probably the best all-around player of all-time. He had a 7 or 8 year run where he was pretty much the undisputed best player on the planet. I can only think of 2 or 3 players in history who have held that unofficial title for longer ( jordan, Kareem and maybe wilt in a much less competitive era).

Lebron has won 2 rings (same as wilt and one less than bird). He has 4 MVPs (same as wilt and one more than both magic and bird). No one is complaining about any of those guys being overrated on this list. Plus he still has plenty of time to add to his legacy. 

The whole Kobe has more rings than lebron so Kobe is better argument is just nonsense. Rings should be one factor in determining a players legacy but they shouldnt be the ultimate deciding factor. Rings are a team accomplishment and no player ever has ever won a championship by himself. Robert horry has as many rings as kobe and lebron combined and no one is arguing he belongs in the top 100. If circumstances were different, and lebron had the privilege of playing with a player of shaqs caliber in his prime, he could easily have won as many rings as Kobe. If Kobe had played on those cavs teams lebron did early in his career there was no way he could have won a championship. That wouldn’t have made either player individually less great though.

Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who is a diehard Lakers fan and never really liked lebron. However, I’m also rational minded enough to recognize his greatness won’t let my personal dislike for him obscure the fact that he should belong in any top 5 list of the best all time.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 I actually have no problem with lebron at 3, even though his legacy isn’t complete yet. The guy is easily the most dominant player of his generation and probably the best all-around player of all-time. He had a 7 or 8 year run where he was pretty much the undisputed best player on the planet. I can only think of 2 or 3 players in history who have held that unofficial title for longer ( jordan, Kareem and maybe wilt in a much less competitive era).

Lebron has won 2 rings (same as wilt and one less than bird). He has 4 MVPs (same as wilt and one more than both magic and bird). No one is complaining about any of those guys being overrated on this list. Plus he still has plenty of time to add to his legacy. 

The whole Kobe has more rings than lebron so Kobe is better argument is just nonsense. Rings should be one factor in determining a players legacy but they shouldnt be the ultimate deciding factor. Rings are a team accomplishment and no player ever has ever won a championship by himself. Robert horry has as many rings as kobe and lebron combined and no one is arguing he belongs in the top 100. If circumstances were different, and lebron had the privilege of playing with a player of shaqs caliber in his prime, he could easily have won as many rings as Kobe. If Kobe had played on those cavs teams lebron did early in his career there was no way he could have won a championship. That wouldn’t have made either player individually less great though.

Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who is a diehard Lakers fan and never really liked lebron. However, I’m also rational minded enough to recognize his greatness won’t let my personal dislike for him obscure the fact that he should belong in any top 5 list of the best all time.

[gopack10Participant]

Championships: Kobe (5) vs. Lebron (2)

Ok, so you don’t want to use Championships as a factor since Kobe played with Shaq?  Then let’s go ahead and dismiss Lebron’s as well since he got his with Wade and Bosh.

Take those away and Kobe still has 2 and Lebron has 0.

Or, let’s go to other accolades:

Points: Kobe (33,243) vs. Lebron (26,188)

Rebounds: Kobe (6,991) vs. Lebron (6,866)

Assists: Kobe (6,274) vs. Lebron (6,634)

Steals: Kobe (1,925) vs. Lebron (1,623)

All NBA Teams: Kobe (15) vs. Lebron (11)

All Defensive Teams: Kobe (12) vs. Lebron (6)

Scoring Titles: Kobe (2) vs. Lebron (1)

All Star Appearances: Kobe (18) vs. Lebron (12)

Finals MVP’s:  Kobe (2) vs. Lebron (2)

Overall MVP’s: Kobe (1) vs. Lebron (4)

I think another poster above said it best, you can make the argument over who you think is better, but they aren’t 9 spots away from one another.  Not even close.  And at this point, Kobe owns Lebron in almost every major statistical category.  Another stat I couldn’t actually find was game winners.  I know Kobe has the edge again, but I couldn’t find exact stats so I left it off.

The point of this isn’t whether or not Lebron will be better when it is said and done.  That’s not the ranking.  As of right now, Kobe has to be above Lebron, or at least right next to him.

 

[gopack10Participant]

Championships: Kobe (5) vs. Lebron (2)

Ok, so you don’t want to use Championships as a factor since Kobe played with Shaq?  Then let’s go ahead and dismiss Lebron’s as well since he got his with Wade and Bosh.

Take those away and Kobe still has 2 and Lebron has 0.

Or, let’s go to other accolades:

Points: Kobe (33,243) vs. Lebron (26,188)

Rebounds: Kobe (6,991) vs. Lebron (6,866)

Assists: Kobe (6,274) vs. Lebron (6,634)

Steals: Kobe (1,925) vs. Lebron (1,623)

All NBA Teams: Kobe (15) vs. Lebron (11)

All Defensive Teams: Kobe (12) vs. Lebron (6)

Scoring Titles: Kobe (2) vs. Lebron (1)

All Star Appearances: Kobe (18) vs. Lebron (12)

Finals MVP’s:  Kobe (2) vs. Lebron (2)

Overall MVP’s: Kobe (1) vs. Lebron (4)

I think another poster above said it best, you can make the argument over who you think is better, but they aren’t 9 spots away from one another.  Not even close.  And at this point, Kobe owns Lebron in almost every major statistical category.  Another stat I couldn’t actually find was game winners.  I know Kobe has the edge again, but I couldn’t find exact stats so I left it off.

The point of this isn’t whether or not Lebron will be better when it is said and done.  That’s not the ranking.  As of right now, Kobe has to be above Lebron, or at least right next to him.

 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 Playing with shaq in his prime is not the same as playing with an aging Wade and Chris bosh but that’s not even my point. Championships are a team accomplishment and we shouldnt elevate one players legacy over another simply because they won more of them. Kobe couldn’t have won his 5 rings without shaq, phil, gasol and the rest of his teammates just as lebron couldn’t have won without Wade and bosh.

Of course Kobe has lebron beat in most of those numbers because he has played 7 more seasons than lebron at this point. When lebrons all said and done there is a good chance he will have Kobe beat in most of those categories.

I personally think Kobe was ranked too low as well. I could even make a pretty good argument that he should be top 5 as well but I’m not taking lebron out of my top 5 to make room for Kobe. Someone else has to go.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 Playing with shaq in his prime is not the same as playing with an aging Wade and Chris bosh but that’s not even my point. Championships are a team accomplishment and we shouldnt elevate one players legacy over another simply because they won more of them. Kobe couldn’t have won his 5 rings without shaq, phil, gasol and the rest of his teammates just as lebron couldn’t have won without Wade and bosh.

Of course Kobe has lebron beat in most of those numbers because he has played 7 more seasons than lebron at this point. When lebrons all said and done there is a good chance he will have Kobe beat in most of those categories.

I personally think Kobe was ranked too low as well. I could even make a pretty good argument that he should be top 5 as well but I’m not taking lebron out of my top 5 to make room for Kobe. Someone else has to go.

[gopack10Participant]

Agree to disagree on Shaq in his prime vs. Bosh/Wade in their primes.  I’d say that is a wash.  Obviously Shaq over either of the other two individually, but not a Bosh/Wade combo is about equal.

[gopack10Participant]

Agree to disagree on Shaq in his prime vs. Bosh/Wade in their primes.  I’d say that is a wash.  Obviously Shaq over either of the other two individually, but not a Bosh/Wade combo is about equal.

[MJBrownParticipant]

Just based on Kobe’s skill set alone and his sheer dominance in the league over a long period of time, he has to be a top 10 player. As I was going through the list day by day I was disappointed at where some player were either over or under rated. But when I saw Kobe at #12, I was absolutely shocked. There are lots of people who would put Kobe at #2, I’m not one of them. But for him to not be in the top 10 just doesn’t make any sense to me. I read the write up and it seemed like a typical example of finding the stats that make him look bad to deflate his value. As someone who has been following basketball for 30 years and has a good knowledge of the history of the game…..I’m baffled.

[MJBrownParticipant]

Just based on Kobe’s skill set alone and his sheer dominance in the league over a long period of time, he has to be a top 10 player. As I was going through the list day by day I was disappointed at where some player were either over or under rated. But when I saw Kobe at #12, I was absolutely shocked. There are lots of people who would put Kobe at #2, I’m not one of them. But for him to not be in the top 10 just doesn’t make any sense to me. I read the write up and it seemed like a typical example of finding the stats that make him look bad to deflate his value. As someone who has been following basketball for 30 years and has a good knowledge of the history of the game…..I’m baffled.

[negguaryParticipant]

 do people actually remember who Dwayne( flash) wade was before lebron came. He was arguably the best 2 guard in the league except to Kobe! 

[negguaryParticipant]

 do people actually remember who Dwayne( flash) wade was before lebron came. He was arguably the best 2 guard in the league except to Kobe! 

[usfballerParticipant]

 Sorry, but I can’t have a guy in the top 5 who has quit on his team MULTIPLE times durring the playoffs. MJ, Kobe, Magic, Larry, Russell would never concede a game, much less an entire series as James has done to both organizations he’s played for. I don’t give a damn how great his skill set or how long his reign as top dog lasted. To me, he excluded himself from the GOAT convo in his last season in Cleveland. 

[usfballerParticipant]

 Sorry, but I can’t have a guy in the top 5 who has quit on his team MULTIPLE times durring the playoffs. MJ, Kobe, Magic, Larry, Russell would never concede a game, much less an entire series as James has done to both organizations he’s played for. I don’t give a damn how great his skill set or how long his reign as top dog lasted. To me, he excluded himself from the GOAT convo in his last season in Cleveland. 

[adumParticipant]

 Everyone can agree that both Kobe and Lebron are Top 10.

We as basketball fans weigh championships a little too much when it comes to player rankings. Yes, winning a ring is the pinnacle in the NBA but basketball is a team sport. I’d take Chris Paul over Tony Parker any day of the week.

Lebron is the most criticized Athlete in the history of Professional sports. You’d think he was involved in a Rape case or  has had multiple DUI’s. All he’s guilty of is having a receding hairline and the "South Beach" incident. Anything this guy does everyone hates first then they look investigate and still hate.

I don’t think you should a rank a player on a all time list until he’s out of the league. But after MJ and Magic I’d comfortably put Lebron right there at 3 maybe even 2nd when it’s all said and done I’d put Kobe 7/8 all time.

We have never seen a Lebron ever. We have seen Kobe and he was a better player then Kobe all around.

Side note: If Kobe is such a "great" scorer why hasn’t he ever shot over  %50 in a season or playoff run?

 

 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 To answer your last question, the reason Kobe has never shot over 50% from the field in any game comes down to the fact that he is so offensively talented and has always had an unwavering confidence in his ability to make any shot on the floor at any time. In many ways, that unabashed confidence was his biggest downfall as a player and the thing that separated him from ever reaching Jordan’s level as a player. He just lacked Jordan’s disciplined approach to the game.

While jordan was supremely confident as well, he also had an understanding of his own limits as a player. He knew what areas of the floor he was most effective from and would make sure he got to those areas to get the shots he wanted. Kobe didn’t believe he had any limits. There has never been a player in NBA history who has made a living off tough contested shots and embraced hero ball more than Kobe. However, when you are consistently taking those shots, its hard to shoot a really high percentage from the field.

I have to point out though, that kobe’s unwavering confidence in himself, while at times detrimental, is also responsible for his greatness as a player. The 81 point games, the buzzer beaters, none of that would have been possible without it. The biggest flaw I would say lebron has in his game is that he hasn’t always had that confidence in himself and has shied away from the pressure in clutch situations at times, something you could never say about Kobe. So you kind of have to take the good with the bad.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 To answer your last question, the reason Kobe has never shot over 50% from the field in any game comes down to the fact that he is so offensively talented and has always had an unwavering confidence in his ability to make any shot on the floor at any time. In many ways, that unabashed confidence was his biggest downfall as a player and the thing that separated him from ever reaching Jordan’s level as a player. He just lacked Jordan’s disciplined approach to the game.

While jordan was supremely confident as well, he also had an understanding of his own limits as a player. He knew what areas of the floor he was most effective from and would make sure he got to those areas to get the shots he wanted. Kobe didn’t believe he had any limits. There has never been a player in NBA history who has made a living off tough contested shots and embraced hero ball more than Kobe. However, when you are consistently taking those shots, its hard to shoot a really high percentage from the field.

I have to point out though, that kobe’s unwavering confidence in himself, while at times detrimental, is also responsible for his greatness as a player. The 81 point games, the buzzer beaters, none of that would have been possible without it. The biggest flaw I would say lebron has in his game is that he hasn’t always had that confidence in himself and has shied away from the pressure in clutch situations at times, something you could never say about Kobe. So you kind of have to take the good with the bad.

[adumParticipant]

 Everyone can agree that both Kobe and Lebron are Top 10.

We as basketball fans weigh championships a little too much when it comes to player rankings. Yes, winning a ring is the pinnacle in the NBA but basketball is a team sport. I’d take Chris Paul over Tony Parker any day of the week.

Lebron is the most criticized Athlete in the history of Professional sports. You’d think he was involved in a Rape case or  has had multiple DUI’s. All he’s guilty of is having a receding hairline and the "South Beach" incident. Anything this guy does everyone hates first then they look investigate and still hate.

I don’t think you should a rank a player on a all time list until he’s out of the league. But after MJ and Magic I’d comfortably put Lebron right there at 3 maybe even 2nd when it’s all said and done I’d put Kobe 7/8 all time.

We have never seen a Lebron ever. We have seen Kobe and he was a better player then Kobe all around.

Side note: If Kobe is such a "great" scorer why hasn’t he ever shot over  %50 in a season or playoff run?

 

 

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