Drummond Athleticism results
Is it just me or has he really dissapointed in his athleticism results.
Compare him to a guy like Festis Ezeli.
Ezeli ranking on NBAdraft.net is a 7
His No step vert was 34
Max vert is 33.5
Comapre him to drummond
Drummonds ranking on NBAdraft.net is a 10
No step vert is 31.5
Max vert 33.5
Knowing Drummond he probably didn't even give that portion his all. Look at his midnight madness dunks.his head was rim level.That is 37 inches off the floor.
It's funny how many people make up excuses for Perry Jones III and Andre Drummond.
"He probably wasn't trying" is a new one...
Wait. Is this a typo or is Ezeli's max vert really LOWER than his no step vert?
Some people are just more explosive off two feet. Maybe he tried a one footed leap for his max vert. That is an odd stat, though.
Who cares? Are you telling me if there is a 12 foot rim, he wouldn't touch it? Because the athleticism tests may, but I feel he could. He had the highest standing vert reach, plus all you have to do is watch him in a game and see he can sky. Do you honestly believe these guys jump as high as they can the entire game? Do you need to jump 33.5 inches to dunk?
My point is, Andre has rare athleticism for his size. The bench press has never been much of an indication to me of strength in a player as much as the look test. Andre is near 280 pounds and has guard/forward agility. I think Nene is a player that comes to mind, and in most drafts he would be a top 5 pick. He is a versatile defender and will win his match-up against most centers. To me, that is what you look for in Drummond.
If he jumps an inch and a half more, it would look a lot better on paper. Still, I feel you take these with a grain of salt. OJ Mayo outjumped the hell out of Russell Westbrook. Kevin Durant jumped 33.5 as a SF, Monta Ellis jumped 31.5 max. You take these tests and apply them to what you know about the player. What people know is, defenders had a hard time stopping Drummond when he got the ball in good position around the rim. That you need to dip down to Nene and now Miles Plumlee for guys over 250 who ran a sub 11 lane agility. Drummond weighs 25 pounds more than either, plus is in playing shape.
Miles Plumlee had athleticism tests that were bonkers, but do you not think Andre Drummond is the more freakish athlete? Did you see Mason Plumlee dunk in the lane over other people even close to as many times as Drummond? Not to mention, Mason is closer to his athletic peak at age 23 (turning 24 in September) as opposed to Drummond being 18 (19 in August). From what you see of Andre Drummond, there are only a handful of players that big who are even close to his level of athleticism. The fact he jumped a few inches over 30 on both standing and max were fine by me.
Oh, and Joe, are you giving excuses for Festus Ezeli's max vert? Just messing with you man, I found it surprising as well. But you have to admit, makes you question the full validity of these results. You take from them what you will, but really hard to establish hard conclusions. All I know is that when you are close to 280 and run a sub 11 lane agility, that stands out quite a bit.
Whenever I try to see how high I can jump I usually think too much about it and don't jump that high. Then when I get in a game I jump so much higher for rebounds and blocks and everything. It's all mental for me. Sometimes it's the same with my jumpshot. If I just clear my head and shoot then I make more than when I think about all the fundamentals and everything.
Im not trying to make excuses for drummonds jumping or PJIIIs shooting but maybe these things are mental. Like Mikey said just watch Drummond in a game and you see him slaying for dunks. I could care less what the athletic results are
Haha, You're totally right. The combine, I've always taken with a grain of salt, but there is a part of me that loves to debate athletic results. Maybe it's because I've always enjoyed and been into training, but max reach and standing reach are really the two most important stats when looking at big men and Andre tested very, very well.
If you haven't figured out too, I get annoyed with intense hype and people buying it without watching those individuals play the game, obvioiusly not you but many on this site. I fully realize what Drummond does well, but I know what he doesn't do well too.
I guess my anti Drummond rants of late, are in part due to the fact I stated weeks ago I thought Meyers Leonard would test very similar to Drummond in the combine, and getting ripped for it by people saying Drummond probably had a 38'' vert, yada yada yada.
He's big, hard to move, he's very fast, hes an solid leaper for someone is his size. He is un-skilled and compares himself to one of the best wings in the game.
Andre Drummond is much more athletic than Festus Ezeli. I don't care what these combine numbers say. Drummond is a quick, effortless leaper, while Ezeli isn't much of a leaper. Ezeli reminds me much more of Narz Mohammad physically.
Dude, I think everyone wants to be there favorite player. Plus, I have to say, Meyers Leonard improved quite a bit, but he is not a similar athlete to Drummond. Here is some food for thought about Meyers Leonard. When Meyers was Andre's age at the Hoop Summit, he was an effing twig. He played 8 minutes and scored 3 points, got pushed around quite a bit and destroyed by Enes Kanter like every other big out there. Saw a decent athlete at 7 feet, but was not exactly drooling about his potential as a prospect.
His freshman year at Illinois, he also did very little. Still, he made the U19 team last summer and backed up Patric Young at center (much like he did in 2010). He had a strong sophomore year, but his team went 2-12 over there last 14 games. Leonard was terribly inconsistent in this stretch, coming up with some strong contests, but also closing out weak at times. He struggled on the boards against teams with a little bulk.
Meyers has gotten a lot bigger since he was 18, and a lot better. Still, is Andre Drummond not allowed the same leeway? Drummond may not have had as productive of a season as Leonard this year, but at the same stage they are worlds apart. Drummond is not the same type of player, he is a bigger body and is someone who can simply over power and overwhelm opponents at times. Leonard may have a nicer shooting stroke and more of a post game, but the latter was developed.
If Andre stayed in school for another year, one would assume improvement in these facets as well. However, in his one year at UConn, he gave us a lot more of a window to what he could become as compared to Leonard's freshman year at Illinois. Drummond to me appears to be the obvious superior athlete and I think will be vastly superior to Leonard in the things you would want from your center. Those are defense and rebounding. Drummond may not have blown people away as a rebounder, but I find his 7.7 (3.5 orpg) in fewer minutes to be a tad more impressive than Leonard's 8.2 (2.3 orpg), especially considering the conference each was in. He is young, he is immature and he is getting to know his limitations. Still, to say Leonard was more skilled at a similar stage is not something I would bet on. In the era of early entry, you need to gamble on how one progresses. Drummond may not improve as much as Leonard has, but he is well ahead of where he started out at a similar period.
^^Yeah people forget that Drummond was a Fr. and only 18 y/o. And UCONN was a mess. A lot of these other big man prospects played much worse as freshmen. Drummond has as much of a chance to improve as those guys.
I hear what you're saying, and like I said yesterday. I still draft Drummond ahead of Leonard because Drummond could be an elite lane intimidator and shot blocker, while Leonard doesn't project elite in any category, but rather a more well rounded player. I just have my reservations about crowning Andre Drummond the next big thing.
He's light years behind on a skill level, and despite having good timing and athletic instincts his Bball IQ is miniscule. Leonard at least had some skill on that wirey frame and he just needed to add some bulk to make it work. That twig that was Meyers Leonard a year and a half ago still shot a FT % 3 times higher than Drummond at the same age.
From a purely work ethic standpoint, I'd take the guy who gained 50 lbs of muscle and has developed a well rounded skillset. But Drummond's physical tools are still hard to pass up.
I don't think Andre Drummond is a more advanced basketball player than he was at 15 years old. He's just been bigger than everyone and it leads me to believe he doesn't really care to improve his skill, nor really knows the game very well. He's just a huge dude who can have success regardless and he's okay with that. In the NBA is he going to be okay with the fact he's a millionaire? or is he going to improve his game for the first time? I have a hard time believing the latter and if he does, is he going to try to be a jump shooter or is he going to embrace what he's good at?
the physical measurements are about the only thing I pay attention to...because on top of the fact that the athletic test dont offer much, some players that test great dont use some of these to their advantage. Some guys have high verticals but dont get much elevation on their jumpshots for instance.
its nice to know a guy can get 40" off the ground during testing, so the good results are informative. the bad results more often than not....are not good representations of what that player can do in game situations.
Drummond is a good athlete, but he's delusional about his own skill set. I heard him in a pre combine interview say he thinks his game is comparable to Kevin Durants. Really? And he really believed that. Not to mention he's lazy and pouty. I think if he is drafted top 3 he's a huge bust. And if he's top 10 he's still gonna be a career long under achiever. Meyers Leonard though, has worked on his body tremendously the last 2 years and is a very good in game athlete. Plus he has a greater motor and a better jump shot out to 12-15 ft. He's risen in the mocks fast for a reason. He'll be an all star one day and I'd bet before Drummond is.
Is not going to be a jump shooter. We saw very little of that at Connecticut and I highly doubt the NBA will be different. He is definitely much better than he was at 15, I think that is an extreme example. I feel these big guys take time to develop into their bodies. Andre seems to have gained a lot of muscle in due time as well, do not think he has just let himself become 280 pounds and ripped (and if he has, than that is still awesome).
Leonard gained 35 pounds in two years. Drummond does not need to. Just the way they were made, I suppose. Still does not make Meyers a better rebounder or defender. I am not saying Andre is the next big thing. He has characteristics one might want, but truthfully most drafts do not have "the next big thing". They have a bunch of players you try to rank on what impact they will have for your team compared to others.
Drummond very well could be behind 5 players in terms of impact. But, for the right team, he could make them much better than they would be with someone else at center. I give you Nene and Tyson Chandler, for instance. Neither has been an All-Star. They make what most people would consider far too much money. The reason behind this is, they are incredibly rare and make their team that much better than they would be otherwise. Have been for years. Both have gone through injuries, but when healthy, they tend to give their teams a formidable man in the middle.
To me, that is what Drummond could be. He could be more, but if he winds up being a Nene or Chandler, that is good enough for me. If you expect a bunch of guys to be perennial All-Stars, I suppose you take that over a solid starting center. The thing is, most drafts have very few perennial All-Stars. They may have guys that make 1 or 2 All-Star teams, but I think a lot of people might take a Tyson Chandler or Nene over a guy like that. This is what I see in Andre Drummond.
Yes, of course his mental scares me. The Kevin Durant thing is not even close to true, though I think being totally over blown as just about every player compares themselves to their favorite player (Quincy Miller, anyone?). I guarantee Andre will not be roaming the perimeter at the NBA level. He will be put near the basket, hopefully set a lot of screens and maybe develop a face up ability to get past slower big men. From what I have seen of Andre, there is something to work with. He is working with the right person in Idan Ravin and has changed his answer of whom he compares himself to. I have no idea if he is the next big thing, but I have my doubts about other players in this draft being that as well.
Andre could go anywhere from 2-6, it might be better for expectations if he went lower. But, what I do not get is people writing him off when I think he is by far the best true center prospect in this draft, plus one who was well ahead of any of the other true center prospects at the same stage. He did not meet expectations, however he was incredibly far from as "horrible" as others see him being averaging 10 and 7.7 as a Big East freshman center. Plus, one who is 6'11 with a 7'6 wing span and 279 pounds on less than 8% body fat. I do not know if he has the desire to be great, I just know that players like him do not come along often and good centers can do good things as far as making your team better.
He may not be roaming the 3 point line, but in college you saw glimses of a guy shooting ugly two handed push fade aways over 6'9'' 230 lb college centers. That, to me, is a guy who doesn't understand how to use his size, a guy with a low Bball IQ, a guy who would rather attempt a high difficulty shot than drop step and poster someone.
That's where I see the main problem. Not that he wasn't a 20/10 player as a freshman, just that guys like that bust more often. I'm not a huge potential guy, but I think his potential ranks him in the 6-8,10 range in this draft.
In two years, he may be a starting center doing exactly what people who are high on him project him to do, but I just don't think he gets it. I have no doubt he'll have a few big games as a rookie, but he'll really struggle with consistancy, and I don't know if he is a guy who will fight through that with the desire to improve and willingness to accept his role as a guy who stays in the lane.
I may look really dumb in a few years, but my opinion is not changing. If he puts it together, he could be a better version of DeAndre Jordan, but if he doesn't he could be a worse version of JaVale McGee. Most likely, and where I think he'll end up is somewhere in between.
pretty much agree with everything JoeWolf has said in this thread. He has no basketball IQ it seems and isn't very aggressive and not willing to improve it seems.
That, to me, shows he knows where to be. Joe Wolf was the 13th pick in the draft, maybe went a tad too high, but he played until he was 34. Think that the bigger you are, the longer you tend to have value in the NBA. When you tell me the guys that busted "like Drummond", I simply do not see guys like Drummond. Kwame Brown was not the physical specimen that Drummond is, plus Drummond actually has good hands.
I am not expecting you to change your opinion, but I think you are calling him a "bust" when even you expect him to be something you could expect solid things from in a 6-10 range. I think he is worth the gamble with all things considered. He has workable issues and I do not dislike his game as much as you appear to. Meyers Leonard struggled with consistency as well. I saw the ugly fades (which I am sure is being worked on as we speak), but I also saw a guy take it to Fab Melo, a player many expect to step in and defend NBA centers.
Both the guys you mention him becoming are centers worth 10 million dollars at least. I personally think he will be a better defender than either one and certainly has the ability to rebound better as well. He will not block as many shots more than likely, but his ability to cover space and move his feet will be far better. He may not be glamorous, but I do not think this is a draft of glamorous. It is a draft where good will more than likely rule.
Andre is developing a basketball IQ, but I do not think it is as low as you think. I think he is growing into his body and learning the game progressively, like most center prospects tend to. He has soft hands, showed some ability as a passer. His biggest issue is confidence, which I think can be developed. He may be "too nice to succeed", but I believe the motto is, "if you are going to fail, fail big". I may be looking at something I idealize more than something that is actually there, but I still see little reason to believe there are better true center prospects in this draft. I think Drummond has progressed and will continue to. He seems to want to be a basketball player, at the very least for now.
He may be risky, but so was Andrew Bynum. Look at Andrew Bynum at a similar stage and tell me he was much better than Andre. You are working with a prototype and not a finished product. That is why this is all so hard to predict. You may want to minimize risk, but that does not necessarily make you better. Kevin Durant was an obvious choice for Sam Presti, but Russell Westbrook, Serge Ibaka and James Harden were not. There were all players at the time considered much less of a risk, but they paid dividends. You may be drafting Andre much higher than Serge, but Serge is not 280 pounds and as tough to move out of the paint. I understand your apprehension, but I believe that even your "low expectations" of Drummond are close to being worthy of a top 5 pick in my eyes.
"Drummond is a good athlete, but he's delusional about his own skill set. I heard him in a pre combine interview say he thinks his game is comparable to Kevin Durants. Really?"
Everyone is misquoting him. Drummond never said that he modeled his game after Durant, he just said that he admired it. As far as comparing himself to someone, he said he doesn't compare himself to anyone. There's video eveidence, but it's from a DX interview. Go watch the video to see for yourself.
I said the word bust one time in this whole post and it was in reference to players with low IQ's having a higher tendancy of busting. Not calling Drummond a sure fire bust, being a bust is subjective and we don't even know where is going to be drafted.
Kwame Brown was a bust at #1, but if he went 4 or 5 then I don't think anyone would be calling him as much of a bust nor would I consider Andre Drummond a bust if he put up a few years of 8 and 8 on a playoff team, like Kwame.
I'm not big on the Kwame/Drummond comparison, I was just using that as an example of perception associated with draft pick. It all boils down that the fact that he's too risky for me to fall in love at #2 or #3. IF he goes 6 or 7...hell, even 5, then I think that's an appropriate risk/reward pick.
Take him at #2 over Beal, MKG, Barnes and Robinson and your making an error. Lets say for sake of arguement he reproduces his college stats at an NBA level. I realize that is a huge asset to a team, because guys his size don't come along that often, but I think I'd rather have Brad Beal on the wing.
The fact that there are any questions about drummonds desire to play or work hard or his effort to fight insi de and use his physical gifts is a giant red flag. I'm sorry but a guy who is practically garunteed as a top 5 pick should not be given 3-4 years to "grow and mature" at the nba level. Regardless of the Durant quote, however it came across, watch film on the guy and tell me honestly he is giving 100% all the time. Not even close. I think his best case scenario is Nene, production wise. He will never be a Tyson chandler. He couldn't except that minimal, team oriented roll. I see him most likely as a more athletic eddy curry. He'll eventually be a 20ppg scorer for a terrible team. He'll never average over 7.5 rebounds. I hope I'm wrong because he was blessed with the physical tools. I'm 5'11" and average build, not a day goes by I don't wish I could be 6'11" 260lbs of muscle, I wouldn't take that for granted like many of these dudes do. Some of us love the game.
It's a bit premature to think a18 year old kid may never "get it." I think sometimes fans/media forget how young these college players are, it takes time for a 18-22 year old to mature pysically and mentally in life/basketball...
I truly disliked that last statement, man. How do we know Drummond's feelings about basketball? We don't have a love-o-meter to track that. Yes, some big guys get forced into playing, some players care about basketball and are more passionate about it than others. People questioned Shaq's love for basketball (not saying Drummond is Shaq, just stating an example), I have had people telling me they do not believe LeBron loves the game enough.
The fact is, if you are playing, training and getting better, than that seems good to me. The fact is, you are not 6'11 and 260. Neither am I. Everyone is different and to say you would have a different mind set than a person in that body seems like a complete and utter unknown. I know a lot of these big guys do not have it easy. Joint pain is an issue and it takes a lot to move a big body.
I do not know if Andre wants it more than these other guys. It is fine to question that. I just truly dislike saying "if I was him, I would be so much better". I used to think it as well, but I have to be honest, I have no idea if I would be. It would be an entirely new set of challenges. So, I have no idea how much Andre Drummond loves basketball. I have to either trust him or the media sources who claim otherwise. Call me a sucker, but I am going to see what Drummond has in him.
I am fine with people saying they would take a player they feel has more competitive fire and skill than Drummond. Just not fine discounting him having any competitive fire at all. His love for the game may be an issue with him becoming great. I just still think even in the worst case scenario, he will be a good center. I love players that are passionate for the game and who play with raw intensity. Even still, these players unfortunately are not blessed with Andre Drummond's size and athleticism. He won the genetic lottery, you are only sitting behind a computer on the internet wishing you could put your mind into his body.
I can't read Andre's mind, but I do know that everyone is different and I am guessing basketball chose him more than he chose it. Maybe he doesn't love it like many other people do, but he certainly seems to be pursuing it and from everything I have heard, trying to improve at it. It is just really a pet peeve of mine when someone says they would be better than a person without any cognitive knowledge of what it would be like to be that big, or what the person has gone through. He is going to make a lot of money and that may motivate him more than love of the game. Still, we do not know whether Andre loves basketball any more or less than we do, and the decision is entirely up to the person who IS 6'11 and 280 pounds.
The only way to measure what Drummond could be is to compare him to the young big men in recent history at the same age. The only young big men I have seen better than Drummond are Howard and Oden. Howard, even with his lack of a face up game and bad free throw shooting was very skilled. I remember him dribbling the ball and shooting 3s in all star games. But I think Drummond compares more to Oden. In the paint all the time. He isn't near Oden as a player though. I think Drummond is superior to Deandre Jordan. I think Andrew Bynum had as long and hard as a road as Drummond and he made it. I think as far as where Drummond will end up as a player varies greatly but I tend to believe he will be at least a Tyson Chandler like player. Great defender and capable catcher and finisher at the rim.