Does coach Cal have a problem?
Been doing some thinking. I've been reading about all the recruits Kentucky has coming and could still possibly have coming and it's crazy. I've also been reading about many of the posters on this site think basically this years entire team should jump ship to the Nba or transfer. After thinking about this its making me wonder does coach cal have a problem when it comes to recruiting these guys. Scenario: you are a player who just got to Kentucky. Your freshman year you play ok or pretty decent. Not exactly draft worthy but you hear that your school has signed the #1 prospect at your position and is coming in next year. Pressure gets put on you to either go to the league or become a backup. I feel like that's the problem calipari will begin to start having. I think the players who clearly aren't ready for the league will get eaten alive by the NbA and then the convo will turn to coach cal as being a guy who rushes his players out of the program. What do y'all think?
Everyone knew this would eventually happen. His system does not work long term. Calipari can talk all about how he's "kid first" and all the other bullsh!t he tells these kids and while some may still believe him, the smart ones will see that he's just in it for himself.
And if you show that you still need work after one year in college (aka how you're supposed to be since you're just a freshman) then he has no need for you. So many of these UK guys aren't ready for the NBA but they're going to get pushed out regardless because Cal has some new toys coming in.
You have to feel bad for the kids. They bought what the car salesman guy was selling, and now pretty much all of their draft stocks plummeted because Cal's inadequacies as an in-game coach can't be hidden behind the #1 and the #2 overall picks in the draft.
Don't get me wrong. He'll still have dominant teams. You'll just see a lot of UK teams like this year's team sprinkled in if Cal stays for a long time at Kentucky.
I would have to hear reasonable evidence that HE actually pushes someone out. If a kid is worried about getting recruited over, they shouldve known the risks going in. Dont enlist in the military if you are not willing or wanting to go to war just because you think chances that you will may be slim. Maybe a harsh analogy but choosing a school is a life-changing decision. You (with the help of your parents/advisors) signed up for this.
I could not have said it better myself akhan. He is a sleezebag and does not have the kids best interests in mind. He got a once in a lifetime talent in Anthony Davis that hid his flaws. Honestly I don't know how more people don't see it like you and I, and you don't deserve the negs.
You guys are clearly biased and have no clue what you're talking about....
Every player that plays for Coach Cal says he's like a father to them. Coach Cal loves his players and he loves helping them reach their dreams..
Remember the title last year? He was only happy for the kids, didn't care what he accomplished only what the kids had accomplished. Get educated and quit hating...
I'm a UK fan and if the worst season we have is a 21-11 season where I get to watch 4 future pros...I'm fine with that...
how can you POSSIBLY say callipari has a problem for signing a ton of great recruits? best problem ive ever heard of.
They played with out nerlens noel who was playing great until he got hurt, their starting point guard was bad and shot a lot (3rd most attempts on the team) at an inefficient rate while not distributing the ball. Then they lost their 6 top players from last year. This happened to north carolina when they lost lawson, hansbrough, green, ellington. It is hard to replace guys that easily, then they also didn't have a leader which is what helped them win the title, MKG and the older players provided that. There were a lot of things that went wrong and they will fix them next year with the players they are getting and as long as they get a leader or someone develops into a leader they will be fine and contending for a title next year.
You're absolutely right that Calipari's method is not sustainable over the long run. I would bet that next year's team makes the NCAA Tournament, but I don't think they get very far.
He had a garbage point guard, his best player got hurt, he had no leaders, he lost his top 6 players, he has an elite recruiting class coming in next year kentucky is going to be ok, North carolina played in the NIT the year after they lost hansbrough, green, lawson, and ellington. It is ok to have a down year occasionally.
Quick making excuses. It's his fault that he didn't have enough depth at point guard. Even then, they should have been able to find a way around it. Another reason his style is unsustainable is because when you only have seven good players, an injury to any one of them is devastating.
Wow, the guy has one bad season as a coach and now everyone is talking about how his system doesn't work? Duke from 2006-2007 and UNC from 2009-2010 are good examples of programs that have also had one bad season mixed in with an era of dominance. It doesn't matter what kind of recruiting class you have if you lose your six best players from a championship team. You just can't expect to be a dominant team EVERY SINGLE SEASON.
Players at schools that consistently bring in elite recruits have the same problems as those at Kentucky. For example, . because of the recruiting power of schools such as Duke, UNC, Kentucky and Kansas - to name a few, you may find yourself starting one year, and not starting the next season. But isn't this a issue at every school anyways? The answer to this is of course yes. The only issue exclusive to the powerhouse schools is that of jumping to the NBA or not. Its not Calipari's fault if he happens to recruit a player better than what he has already. Isn't that one of the goals of recruiting players in the first place? The only "pressure" IMO that is put on the incumbent players is to get better as a player.
The problem people are identifying isn't with his coaching necessarily, it's with his recruiting and the adverse affect it could have on his players; knowing that he already has your position next season filled if you return means you're under extra pressure to perform and raise your draft stock; Calipari has expressed difficulty reaching this particular crop of players, it's possible that they are less coachable because they are trying to raise their stock knowing they only have one year on centre stage. Let's not pretend Kentucky was wowing anyone before Noel went down. The team was playing better, but hardly looking like repeat champions.
I honestly think he's overrated as a coach in terms of developing players, but I think he's a guy who knows how to manage talent, and get them to buy into the team concept. He can get people to commit to a particular play style, but it feels like he more or less gives them a free reign on the court instead of instituting a more structured offensive system (the dribble-drive is a lot more dependent on talent than people realise). That is to say, his system can work, but it requires players who have developed skillsets already; he doesn't make players better, he just turns them into a team.
You can say this with all of his most successful teams, he did his best work by assembling the team, getting them to buy in and then stepping back and letting them loose.
I think it is funny how everyone is quick to bash Kentucky and Cal, but let's be honest Roy Williams and Coach K recruit the best players every year too. If you are a Coach why wouldn't you? Cal tells the recruits and they know that playing at Kentucky is a totally different then playing any where else. He can't hide players at Kentucky and you will have plenty of haters. If you got Haters then you must be good or why would someone hate. Uk fans hate on DUke because Duke is the shit. (Im a UK Fan and im saying this) Now to Coach Cal he has proved that you don't need to score 20 pts and shoot all the balls on the team in order to make it to the League. For Example, (MKG, Davis, Orton, Teague) Orton averaged more fouls then anything. He was still a 1st round pick and got millions. Bledsoe averaged 10 or 11 pts(played out of position 2 gaurd), Teague baely averaged 10 pts. So quit hating on Cal. Archie, Harrow and Poythress can comeback. If next years team plays the pace that Cal wants them to and defend on defense their are plenty of shots for everyone to get up and pts to score. More steals, blocks and rebounds leads to more scoring oppertunities. If Poythress just shows he has a mean streak and become aggressive he will get drafted in the 1st round next year because his tools are there. If Archie develops his pull up game from the free throw line and plays with pace he too is a 1st rounder. Lets face it Harrow is a back up. There was no pressure this year except to distribute the ball and play hard nose defense. He could not do any of them. Why do you think he left NC State. Im sure Cal will make all of them duke it out for Playing Time. That's what your suppose to do as a coach anyways. You don't give anyone a starting spot. They earn it. Do you really think the way all three of them played this year they deserve to start next year? Goodwin Maybe. Kentucky played awful as a team and they deserve to be in the NIT not the NCAA.
It's not surprising, when you re-load every year it leaves you little room for error. If Noel wouldn't have blown out his knee, Im sure the Wildcats would have finished the year stronger and been on of the last teams in. For a team like Kentucky under Coach Cal's system to really succeed at a national championship level, it has to have that blend of elite freshman talent, an NBA caliber player who stuck around for one more year, and glue guys who stuck around like Darius Miller. Last year they had that and they were a hell of a team, but that is the difference between the 12' Cats as opposed to the team lead by John Wall and DMC. Coach Cal will have a lot of success in the future, but winning a title is freaking hard and for him to get there again he needs that blend, not just the #1 recruiting class.
Bad seasons do happen to every program. My post was more to talk about how he puts some kids in very bad situations.
It seems like that went over a lot of people's heads...
I don't think Coach Cal puts kids in bad situations, at all. I think his program attracts some (not all) "me first" guys and those guys are more apt to make poor decisions about coming out.
Ex: Coach Cal didn't force Daniel Orton out. Cal told him he'd be a cornerstone of next season, but if a kid wants to go all you can do is support his decision, something Cal has always done.
Personally, I don't like Coach Cal's type of recruiting, but I'm not going to demonize him because he's always stood behind his players and supported them, whether they stay or go. 18-22 year olds don't always make the best decisions and I'm sure many guys sign on at UK with the intent of leaving after 1 year no matter how well their season goes.
I pretty much agree with everything you said JoeWolf and I would like to add......Pitino has "forced" players out before. Did it to Roderick Rhodes so he get Ron Mercer in there. Ironically at Kentucky. Now that may have been an isolated incident because Pitino was really frustrated with Rhodes. He did advise him to go pro and scholarshipped another player at his position, so the writing was on the wall.
I dont have a problem with Cal's Kentucky, but I would think twice before sending my kid there. They get so much bad advise from family and all other sorts of leeches. They come there looking to be one and done and it dont always work out like that. Still, you cant stop this whether Coach Cal is around or not. Look at Selby. He NEVER intended on playing more than one year, no matter how bad he was.
Truth is, WCS, Poythress, and Goodwin should all return. Dont be selfish...you will get to the NBA anyway, come back for another year. Until I hear evidence of him forcing someone out, I dont have a problem with Coach Cal.
The biggest thing that most people here seem to not understand is major, I'm talking top flight, D-I college athletics is designed to make money off of these kids. You can say the whole well, they get a scholarship deal but that's total bullshit. The amount of work the put in, and the amount of money they make for big wigs is pathetic. The NCAA makes five billion..with a b..billion dollars a year. They make money off of your likeness and you can't do a damn thing about it. They make you out to be a criminal if a family friend gives you $20 bucks to watch a movie with a girl.
You're damn right I'd get out of that institution as quickly as possible if I were one of them. How many people look at their bosses and say, "look at the fat cat, does nothing but he's making twice what I make". Compare that to making college tuition and Mark Emmert's seven or eight figure salary. Calipari is about the kids because he gives them an opportunity to change lives. So, you might say "well 70% of athletes are broke after they quit sports!". How many of Calipari's ex-athletes went from riches to rags? How many times has a four year degree from the University of Who Gives a Shit gave a kid a shot at changing the lives of their families for the foreseeable future? Think about your own college degrees, if you had a chance to leave college after a year and make millions, would you do it?
The NCAA is a lot like sweat shops in Asia. Sure, they get paid money so it's not indentured servitude...but they don't get paid enough for the product they produce. If people really cared about the kids the college athletics model as it currently stands wouldn't exist and top talent wouldn't be diluting their skills playing along with the likes of people from Albany college..from South Dakota State. It's nothing but theater. Let's rig the bracket so North Carolina and Kansas are in the same region...or..let's make Kentucky play Indiana since that'll be a highly-rated game (circa last year). The reffing is rigged (check out the over under on that game with the three technical fouls in 3 seconds), the seeding is rigged (obvious every year) and suits make millions while they say the players can't make any money because they want that extra yacht.
Calipari IS for the kids because he says "Get out." Don't get used and abused by the system. Watch your back, have people like Pete Thamel breathing down your neck, trying to dish dirt on a teenager because maybe Eric Bledsoe got a free cheeseburger when he was in eighth grade..Let's investigate! It's like a &$#%#&@! soap opera for men. &$#%#&@! about this, &$#%#&@! about that, but you still watch. I say, "use the system". If you have pro potential, get to the NBA where people aren't trying to get shit out of you for free. Don't let phony block/charge calls, or a substandard referee play into the theater that makes these &$#%#&@! any richer.
Until Mark Emmert makes the same amount of money as a college football or basketball player, it's not about the children. Peolpe who are already pro-level good are the ones that make the NCAA money. Teams like Alabama football, Kentucky basketball, Florida football. Power conferences need to drop out of the NCAA, govern themselves and pay their players something commensurate with what they give the university. Don't buy into this bullshit that the NCAA is about education. The NCAA uses football and basketball players to give swimmers and divers and tennis players a free chance at college. Those sports don't make any money, and yet they get the same free education (sometimes only partially, however) as the ones who are doing all the work, in terms of producing dollars. Screw the NCAA. D-I football and basketball schools should drop out and do their own thing. THAT would be the best thing for the kids.
I am not sure about the criticism of his system. He has already earned his money at UK by winning a title within 5 years. Not to mention the TV exposure and tourney money he has made for the University. Do you expect him to win one every year?
Kentucky had freshmen who played like freshmen. It isn't a problem other than the fact that there weren't the sophomores, juniors, and seniors to compensate when that happened. Nerlens Noel was really just a one-trick pony against anyone decent. He was a nice college shot blocker, but those guys come along every year, especially the 215 lbs variety. Archie Goodwin can't shoot, run the point, gets to the line but is a lousy free throw shooter for a guard, and has problems turning the ball over. Alex Poythress never showed up to games outside of Rupp. It is not uncommon for freshmen to be better at home than on the road. A lot of guys feed off the energy at home, but it is a terrible sign for someone who might be looking for a job with the Bobcats. Cauley-Stein didn't know how to play. He is a huge body and a great athlete, but the same can be said of Steven Adams. Nobody is claiming Adams is ready to take the next step to the NBA after a mediocre freshman season. Still, they are freshmen. Greater leash should be given to freshmen. The problem for them is that the upperclassmen did not help.
Ryan Harrow was bad. He was bad a couple years ago once he got to ACC play. Apparently, the magical fairy dust sprinkled onto players once they get a scholarship from John Calipari doesn't work. The fact that Harrow was largely ineffective in the halfcourt offense is not extactly new for a Kentucky point guard (Teague), but he didn't seem to learn from the struggles he had two years ago. When he left Rupp, he still played like a freshmen who let the emotions of the road break him down. Kyle Wiltjer was not able to do the Erik Murphy or Ryan Kelly thing as well as Erik Murphy or Ryan Kelly. Maybe better point play would help, but he shot 30.6 percent from three in SEC games. If he was hitting at 40-45 percent, it would have make a huge difference. Julius Mays was in a tough spot. I thought he had a good season all things considered, but it is hard to jump in as a stabilizing senior when he was really just another newcomer. When Harrow, Poythress, and the big men went missing on the road he was not able to step up like Darius Miller and Doron Lamb did the year prior. The stuggles of those three really accentuated the flaws of the freshmen. Mike Kidd-Gilchrist and Terrence Jones still can't shoot. Teague can't shoot or run a halfcourt offense. Davis is limited beyond what he can get at the rim. Winning blanketed a lot of those flaws until they got to the NBA.
The fact that Kentucky was mediocre this year should not necessarily cause an exodus. It is possible Calipari does the always secretive move of telling guys to leave because he is done with them and threatens to either exile them to the deepest bowels of the bench or even pull their scholarship. It would not mesh well with the image he tries to cast, but there is that list of guys he shipped off when he first got there. Maybe he tells a guy or two to leave, but unless there are scholarship limitations that they run into, it does not have to happen. Being bad this year does not prevent them from getting better for next year, but it does mean that a light bulb should go off to signal that there is a lot more to basketball than what simply got them to Kentucky.
As for the insecurity about minutes and starter status, if a player was so insecure as to worry about the new "top recruit" signing with Kentucky, then what chance does he have when he walks into a terrible NBA team's locker room and sees a roster full of guys who were All-Americans in high school, All-Conference and All-Americans in college, and guys who have signed contracts for 7-8 digits annually? Things do not get easier in the NBA. If Ryan Harrow leaves Kentucky after this year, what chance does he have to so much as get big minutes on a summer league team? If he gets better, why can't he show the same improvement that Larry Drew displayed at UCLA over the next year or two? How many people pegged Larry Drew as being the point guard who barely left the floor for the Bruins? Didn't UCLA bring in top prospects? Wasn't Kyle Anderson going to run the point? Weren't Josh Smith and Tony Parker going to render the Wear twins irrelevent? You can also look at Baylor when they brought class after class of top propsects. Did Cory Jefferson get blocked from relevence? Arizona's highly thought of freshmen didn't displace Solomon Hill. Did James McAdoo leap frog returnees when he got to UNC? Is it really a coincidence that all these Syracuse recruiting classes just so happen to fall behind the previous classes?
I'm willing to give Harrow and Poythress about five more games to see if they can play hard. If not, bench them and never let them see the light of day again. It's the ultimate slap in the face form of disrespect to not hustle. It's the basketball equivalent of stealing from a little old lady or punching a baby.
Some idiotic comments on here....Like Cal was lucky to have had Davis. What National Championship winning coach wasnt lucky to have a great or many great players? And mind you a coach like Roy Williams was in this same scenario in '09 when he went 20-17 with 8 Mcdonalds AA's
The McDAA argument is a cop out for trying to say a team is talented. Was Larry Drew or the Wear twins top 20-25 players in their HS classes? No they weren't but they were McDAA's. Also like Cal this year Roy lost Ed Davis in the middle of the conference season for the rest of the year and Zeller the offensive rock in the post missed 11 games in the middle of the year in which UNC went 2-9 during that stretch. When you are an unbalanced team or thin depth wise , injuries to key players at key positions will hurt you.
I really can't believe some of you can't see through the facade that Cal puts on for the media and his recruits...
I have nothing against UK, in fact, you could say I actually like UK since some of my favorite players played there.
I just think Calipari is as much of an inauthentic person as there is in college basketball. Little things like when he was at the NBA draft he accidentally let the cameras hear him whisper to MKG and Anthony Davis to "make sure the cameras can see you guys hugging me when you get your name called."
That just makes me want to barf. I've always had a pretty good bs meter when seeing people, and it goes crazy when I see Calipari interact with the media, recruits, or hell even his twitter.
The guy is a sleazy as they come, but damn he is probably a genius too because he's so good at it.
Having too much talent on a team is now considered a problem?
First off, if he has talent at a certain position, I don't think he's going to look for a player to replace that position.
For example, Terrence Jones came back for another year, Coach Cal didn't recruit James McAdoo (Perhaps the best PF prospect if you considered A.Davis a C, which Cal did)
Another example, Doron Lamb came back his sophomore year, Coach Cal didn't hand Austin Rivers or Bradley Beal an offer.
When he has players ready to play and contribute, he doesn't stuff a star prospect in his face. He does the opposite, he goes with guys like Daniel Orton, Willie Cauley-Stein, and Kyle Wiltjer, guys that need to grow into their role while playing behind big name guys until their number is called.
They came back like many other college players because of the lockout. Everyone was scared sh*tless to come out and possibly not get to play for a year or to go overseas (among other factors). I wasn't a Terrence Jones fan, but UK benefited from having him and Lamb come back. Veteran leadership is huge in most sports. Even just an extra year under your belt is going to help. There is an adjustment for 99% of the guys when they reach a new level (i.e., high school to college, college to pro). Sure you have to have superstars, but you also need guys that can play in roles and provide leadership. The Demarcus Cousins/ Wall cats team would not have had nearly the success that they did without Harrelson, Patterson and Liggins despite how much high level freshman talent they had.
I think Cal's gameplan is to move guys out asap. I believe he promises the new recruits heavy minutes and getting into the first round of the draft. It's hard to do if you have a really good player ahead of you. I remember when Knight was considering staying, I don't think Cal had any interest in that happening. You can go about 7 deep and still give a lot of guys good minutes and once you go 8 deep then that guy is probably getting someone just getting a few mins a night. You can't do that with a lot of depth, so you need the good players that were already in to leave or possibly take a reduced role in year 2 which could hurt their draft stock.
Are going Pro regardless or trying. He is not lying. Sometimes guys don't fair well in year one. That happen this year. Sometimes guys are thinking NBA and not College and get distracted. I would not overreact on this. He does not use these kids at all. He benefits but so the hell do they.