dion waiters: stats don't tell the whole story
i couldn't catch any cavs game so i never spoke my mind on wether dion waiters really looked like a bust. in the a "dion waiters has bust written all over him thread" the dude got 26 points as most people seemed to agreed.
after watching dion highlights in the SL i think that stats don't tell the whole story with dion waiters. first of all he looks a little fat, and that fat can be expected to be gone.
his handles looked extremely tight, he was able to blow by his man on iso situation. the boy has moves and looks extremely fluid when pulling them off. when you double team him he kills you with his... court vision: you can tell that he knows where others are when his attacking as opposed to doing it with tunnel vision. he will have no trouble finding the open man when double teamed and he will get most of his assist in this fashion. he struggled shooting but if we go by the "beal norm" his shot looks money, even off the dribble and i expected to start falling at hi rates. his mid air balance when shooting looks in top form and he is able to elevate hi off the ground when pulling up.
this three skills right here will make him a master in the pick and roll situation, where he looked like D. wade splitting screens with no problem keeping his handles about an inch off the floor with no problem
CHECK OUT THE HIGHLIGHTS, I CANT POST 'EM
that lay up right there at the 0:14 mark shows you the insane soft touch he has around the rim
Dion waiters was drafted WAY to high and will most likely not live up to the no.4 overall pick in a very deep draft. It doesn't matter what you say he is not Dwade as Dion is more fat than muscle which is why he struggled in the summer league, he can't play defense like wade, and he is not in the same athletic class as wade
Waiters has yet to play a real NBA so its a little early to say he was draft "WAY" to high but its a fact that he only has 4% body fat. I don't think anybody expects Waiters to be the same caliber players as Wade but even if he isn't, it doesn't mean he going to be a complete bust.
um... i never said he's d wade man. r u serious? i said he looked like d. wade when splitting the screen.
dion waiters loves to pull up, d. wade was strictly a slasher.
wade is my fave player, waiters is not wade. never said that
maybe you should have said James Harden who splits screens with the same attacking cross over and people wouldn't be in a hissyfit, you dared to mention Waitor's and a Dewayne Wade "move" in the same sentence. Somehow in the place where its okay to start comparing 8th graders games to Hall of Famer's, you can't compare a move that looks exactly the same. IDK how to post vids but you should post them right next to each other so people can't let there shortsidedness prevail over there acumen for accessing basketball talent.
i would say he's more similar to james harden.... im speculating tho
Im actually really high on Waiters too. As long as he continues to work hard i think he can be a rodney stuckey with a jump shot. I like him much better than Harrison Barnes who i think will be throughout his career a 12-15ppg scorer. I like him better than any other swingman available which was between Barnes, Ross, Lamb and Rivers. I feel like people would be angry with the Cavs pick no matter who they drafted over Barnes. The Lamb bandwagoners would be celebrating the Cavs pick though.
As you said, "Summer league highlights"
First of all, highlights are made to make a player look good and show-off his skills, most of the time their athletic skills. Hell, there are even Brian Scalabrine highlights on YouTube.
Second of all, summer league. Not exactly top-level competition. By the way, remember how Sean May dominated summer league his rookie year? Where is he now?
Then why do people use summer league as evidence that Dion Waiters was a bad pick? I dont take summer league at all into account. I like to look at what a player can bring to the table off the bat, fit with the team, confidence, work ethic and ability to grow more.
Kyrie Irving is a really unselfish player and he can play off ball like he did in Duke next to player of the year candidate Nolan Smith.Kyrie is a lights out shooter that is a really nice compliemt to dion. People think because the cavs have Kyrie that they dont need someone else that can creat their own shot. Kyrie is the only player on the team that can create anything resembling offense its crazy. All their big men are energy guys and all of their guards and swingman are defensive guys or shooters.
the fact that im not basing my analysis off stats should keep your sean may dominating argument out of here.
like i said in that "dion waiters has bust written all over him thread" the dude got 26 points, so clearly a lot of people think he's gonna bust out, i say hold your horses because he showed nice moves despite what the stat sheet says. he also came thru with that clutch bucket at the end of the game after struggling shooting all night.
all highlights are meant to show case your skills but that doesn't mean that i gonna like your skills. i pointed out the specific things that stood out to me from waiters.
Its a good thing youre not basing your analysis off stats. Looking at his stats in college, Waiters didnt play too well against top 25 teams. Here's the link. http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/gamelog/_/id/51344/dion-waiters. But if you dont feel like looking, Ill sum it up.
#9 Florida 1/8 with 2 points
#20 Marquette 4/10 with 12 points
#11 Georgetown 3/12 with 9 points
#18 Louisville 3/10 with 7 points
#18 Louisville 5/9 with 13 points
Other top talented teams he faced.....
NC State 9/14 with 22 points.
Pittsburgh 4/9 with 16 points
Notre Dame 4/14 with 11 points
Cincinnati 1/5 with 2 points
West Virginia 2/9 with 8 points
Cincinnati 8/16 with 28 points on 7/10 from 3's. Easily his best game
Sweet 16 against Wisconsin 5/11 with 13 points
Elite 8 against Ohio State 2/8 with 9 points
I did this to point out that Cleveland drafted Waiters because he can create his own shot. While he does demonstrate that he gets a lot of shots off, most of those shots arent going in against top rated talent. You can find your own parallel to NBA talent and how you think he'll do against that. He does get to the line though and is a pretty solid free throw shooter, so Ill give him that. Im a Cleveland fan, so Im hoping he does shed the fat, comes in with a great attitude, and keeps working on his game this summer. I dont see the Wade comparisons ever being literal, but Im hoping he can bring a talent similar that of Wade to Cleveland. We all know they need him to.
Even if he plays plays dynamite down the road everybody is going to say he should have because he was the fourth pick. I wanted Waitor's in Cleveland months before the draft because he is the only guy in the draft who can break a guy down with handles and go all the way to the hole in the whole draft. I didn't think at 4 but I thought they could trade up the way they did for Zeller to get him. In the end the skill set matters when your trying to play for keeps like the Cav's are with your young talent. Like you mentioned above Kyrie Irving is the only guy on Cav's roster that can do that currently. Alonzo Gee excelled at it for a time last year early, triple threating from 18-19 and driving and dunking on people. He tailed off for what ever reasons and started shooting more jumpers. Thompson's 8 foot face up game will continue to improve but its basically only Kryrie to create.
Check out this Dime Mag story on Waitor's via Bleacher Report http://dimemag.com/2012/08/a-rose-that-grew-from-concrete-2/
He came in fat, that's never a good sign when a guy gets his first shot at the pros and he hasn't kept himself in shape in the month since he's been drafted.
and that disappointed me, but no one comes out B Scotts training camp fat so that will be fixed.
@WFNYScott Awesome to see that Boobie Gibson, CJ Miles, Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters are all working out together this early.
So ^^^ things are looking up, he is a tank and if he lost about 6-7 pounds, he should be in beast mode. Now Wolfy, I know somebody should never mention Samardo Samuels and Luke Harongody when trying to make a point, but you know those guys and the shape they have been in presumably their whole basketball life, they looked great in summer league.
6 or 7 lbs is a little water weight and a Chipotle burrito. It's looking up, if he's dropping a few pounds, but 10-15 is what slows a guy down. It takes work, or lack of work, to gain 10-15 lbs in a month, unless you've got the metabolism of Sherron Collins, also not a good thing.
Everyone in the NBA, especially top 10 picks, have the talent and or physical tools to be there. Waiters is no different, he is an NBA player, but a lot of the time it's what is between the ears that seals the deal for a young player. I probably would have taken Waiters around 14 or 15 if I am being completely honest, I think he could be a nice bench spark, but I wasn't sold draft night, I wasn't sold during Summer League and I'm not sold now.
is not outrageous and totally justified maybe even the only reasonable conclusion. I think the fact I just like Dion Waitor's game and him as a character, schews my opinion. I like wild cards from time to time and he would be that no matter what position he would have been drafted.
Plus he is a dawg, the me first type of guy that can't be fueled by haters because he is already so full of himself. This team and city needs that, they dont know it, but they do. I am not a big fan of guys like Granger or even a Harrison Barnes. They can't consistantly bring passion because its not in their make up. Word here was Beal bullied Barnes in their workout here. I wanted to be a Paul George fan but after wacthing him against the Heat, he is scared of stars, just intimidated. Waitor's best attribute is he cant be intimadated, much like Beal and MKG. Remember Beal trying desparately to go after Rivers in those HS allstar games. T Rob is my guy too and MKG manned up on him in his lone summer league game. MKG out grown manned T Rob, which is no small feat, by any strecth. Kyrie and Thompson are the two nicest guys you will ever meet, great humble dudes. We needed someone B Scott doesnt have to tell, dont help the guy on the other team get up if you knocked him down. Waitor's would have never even entertained the idea.
I think locker rooms need diversity some time and when they usually dont have it its because some coach or GM is so afraid of confrontation and insecure that they wont allow for diversity of personality.
That is valid, and those type of guys are great to have on your team...if they are capable of taking on that kind of role. Waiters was absolutely capable in college of doing such things; howver, I've always had questions about his transition to the pros. If he is able to become that dagger thrower in the NBA, then he'd be a great asset to the Cavs, in terms of toughness and attitude.
My main question lies, again, with will he be able to make that jump. We've all played with guys who "think" they are that guy and aren't. The guy who wants the last shot, but has been throwing bricks all game long, half asses it in practice and thinks he's better than he is. We ALL know that guy. I still have doubts as to whether Waiters will be able to do his thing against NBA guards, but rather be a guy who plays 22 mpg shoots 9 times and makes 3 of them.
I get what you are saying, but I see Waiters and think "that is a guy who will never shoot over 42%" and he is no Allen Iverson who can take over a game chucking shots. Teams do need that fearless player, but I don't think Waiters is good enough to be good or elite at that level in the NBA. If I had to make a flat prediction, maybe a low seeming one, he's a guy who will probably hit 10 ppg a few times in his career shoot a low percentage and make a couple game winners. Not the killer instincted closer Cleveland was reaching for at #4.
His shooting percentage depends on how well he is coached. Slightly I saw a selling of him as a combo distributor on display in the summer league. I'm not really buying he can spell point guards, but maybe only because is handle is real instinctual. I do think his percentage will go up if at times they have the ball in his hands and use Kyrie or Boobie Gibson (dont really see his role he can provide ((he is Kyrie with no handle why not use KI as undersized 2 with a jumper)) unless he can give consistant defensive aggressiveness along with his shot) as court spacing shooters on the opposite side of the court. If Dion settles for 18-19 footers instead of 14-15 footers, floaters and layups off pick and rolls and dribble penetration, then we have a problem. I even have a new NBA position catorgory for Waitor's and Eric Gordon, a Power 2. If we can have point forwards why not bullish power shooting guards. I guess the ones that post like Kobe and Jordan would make a better prototypical power 2, but I like the penetrating power 2 definition better.
I think picking him is like when a NFL team picks a guy like Jason Pierre Paul and the Seahawks reached for a guy named Bruce Irving from West V this draft I think. A guy that has a very unique ability even amoungst other great players. In the summerleague Waitors took a early charge call or two and then every time he drove after that the other games he did sort of a Westbrook lay up where you slide by a guy laying up in full stride. Slight ajustments like that give me hope he is a guy that gets it.
Especially with that last point you made about the in game adjustments or even game by game adjustments, that's what Cleveland likes to see. Being able to adapt to the competition and hopefully from there rise above it and become better. I'm just hoping that he stays consistent and works hard for each game so that the backcourt of Irving and Waiters will be tremendous. The problem with him being picked at 4 is that its almost like boom or bust. If he doesn't average 15ppg at least during his career, they're going to think its a wasted pick and it made Kyrie have to wait longer to get his opportunity to go further in his NBA career.
From my perspective he was picked a little too high for many reasons. The biggest of which is that his body of work in college was solid but not dominating. In order to have success as a smaller combo guard you either have to be a lights out shooter who understands how to get open without the ball or you have to be really explosive and able to negate the length because of your athleticism. He is neither of those things. He looks chubby although someone on here said he had a low body fat percentage. (Byron Scott did say he was too heavy and out of shape for the record)
This is not to say that he won't be a solid player. I think he actually does some things that will help a ball club and most importantly he is a tough minded basketball player. I just think at that spot they could have found a better compliment to Kyrie Irving. At the 2 spot they needed someone who could shoot the basketball because Kyrie in most cases has the ball and is creating for his teammates. A big man wouldn't have been a bad pick there either.
I just didn't see enough of him last year in college to warrant the hype before the draft and for a team to pick him this high especially without never working him out. His freshman year he was a 6.6ppg guy and his 2nd year without even starting he was a 12ppg guy who shot 36% from the college 3.
There are some concerns with this pick and summer league did not show me that my concerns should be silenced.
But again I think he can be solid in time.
and still got him, the TRoss pick (which looks good now) and big time predraft spectulation shows Toronto would have drafted him. Nevertheless Cleveland is a special situation and I'm glad management is acting like it. You cant just "pick a big", you have to pick guys that really want to be here and be coached by Scott. This city is suffering and Im not talking about sports team. This is a hard place to live, as much as I hated Joakim for saying it, its pretty depressing sometime. Free agents will not come, period. We tried to get Ray Allen and Micheal Redd a while back and ended up with Larry Hughes and Ilguakas for not much less money.
We have to build right with guys who have a chip on their shoulder and want to bring it. Our talk radio is like Philly and everybody cares whether you give it your all. The guy bagging your grocercies will make sure he crushes your eggs if your a sports player not giving his all, ala Larry Hughes, Gerward Warren, Courtny Brown, Tim Couch crying etc. Thats the main reason we hated Lebron so bad when he left, everyone thought he quit against Boston. His stats were still the same but we have a filling here about quitters, IDK. That letter Gilbert sent calling him out could have came from 450,000 thousand of your half million people.
He doesnt just play with better players in Miami, he plays tougher and with more passion. Less family photos and more fisticuffs, he needed that Kobe scrowl. If you dont want it here we will know, Peyton Hillis last year. Are reporters are brutal because our fans are.
even if he was as good on offense as d wade is (he just plain isn't even close), or as athletic (again, not even close), people forget that d wade is an absolute killer on defense as well, which is half of the game, and waiters definitely isn't on that level defensively. Even if D wade couldn't score he would be a Tony Allen type player on defense.
What i'm trying to say is, no more Waiters - Wade comparisons.... I'm beggin' ya! I could see Waiters - Rodney Stuckey comparisons being more realistic.
If i were the Cavs i'd have taken Barnes.
The Waiters/Wade comparison is only fair because Stuckey/Wade comparisons were made his rookie season too
If you think Dion Waiters was drafted high take a look at Tristian Thompson. They took him 4th overall last year
The draft is based off potential and Dion and Tristian both have a lot of it
"Stats don't tell the whole story"
Bases entire argument on summer league highlights.