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Denver Was The Big Winner, NY Is Going Sideways

rtbt
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KnicksBoy1 And Insurance

You can't be serious. How will insurance help if Anthony has a major knee injury?

I never said the Knicks won't be good with Amare and Anthony. I said I don't think it will work out but acknowledged I might be wrong.

And I never said the Knicks were ready to win the NBA championship, so please stop putting words in my mouth. Do you understand the concept of a team that improved dramatically since last season, had confidence, chemistry, and were heading in the right direction? Changing that equation and positive momentum by giving up your core young players was a major gamble.

I don't think it was the right bet while others in this forum think it was in fact the right move. Let's sit back and watch over the next couple of years and see who was right.

BKKnicksfan
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And I never said the Knicks

And I never said the Knicks were ready to win the NBA championship, so please stop putting words in my mouth. Do you understand the concept of a team that improved dramatically since last season, had confidence, chemistry, and were heading in the right direction? Changing that equation and positive momentum by giving up your core young players was a major gamble.

........................................ Done, because your not understanding ANYTHING I'm saying. Looks like everyone on this post agrees with me anyway, so I'm done arguing.

NYK2010
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Well they do have their 2011

Well they do have their 2011 draft pick thats is the 17th pick right now.

They still have all their own 2nd rounders except this year.

These are the picks they've lost in trades.

2011 Knicks 2nd rounder, 2012 Knicks 1st rounder, 2012 Warriors 2nd rounder, 2013 Warriors 2nd rounder

2014 Knicks 1st rounder

None of these picks are lottery or even top 20 picks, the Knicks should be much improved next year.

Also rbt, this is Gallo's 3rd season I know he didn't play much in his 1st year but he did play 28 games its not like he missed the whole season. Gallo is a 42% shooter and 37.5% on 3's for his career. More importantly averaging 4.4 rebs and 1.5 asts a game so I don't see where he'll be a top SF in the league.

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I like the trade for both

I like the trade for both teams. NY still has to work out the whole chemistry thing. It's going to have to adjust to carmelo's play if him and Amare and whoever else joins is going to be successful together. But I think as long as they continue to build around these two and who knows maybe even another superstar they'll definitely compete for multiple championships.

For Denver, I think the trade is perfect. Carmelo can't take a team on his back and get a ring. The only player in the league capable of this is Lebron and possibly still Kobe. Therefore Denver had to start over and get younger because they weren't true contenders with the team they had. Now they have some picks, some good young talent. I don't think their roster is set either so the rebuilding for them may not be such a long drawn out process. They can win with youth while still getting better. Also taking the non superstar team-oriented approach would probably be best for them too. Obviously superstars no longer want to stay in the "secondary" NBA cites, so getting guys that would want to be there and be happy to be Nuggets is smart. Something like a 2003 Pistons approach.

Mkadoza
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Gallo has showed games of

Gallo has showed games of absolute brilliance this year, and ts sad to see him go. He can provide minute at three positions and can drill long range shots easily. He attacks the basket well, but he's not a better passer than Melo. What really hurts the Knicks in the trade is we dont have two player who can play the 2 thru 4 now. The lineup flexability that Gall and Chandler provide will be impossinle to replace this year. But how can you consider this anything but a good trade? The Knicks have two top 15 players for the first time since Earl Monroe and Frazier played together, and will have a chance to develop chemisty over the next 5 years in the primes of their careers. The enthusiasm is higher than its been since Ewing got drafted and that is irreplacable. Short term there will be an adjustment period, but this is a trade that will benefit both teams in the future... ESPECIALLY since the Knicks have created a team that Paul or Williams would like to play for. Theyre 2 smart draft picks, a solid big, and a long term point from being legit NBA Championship contenders. That alone is worth the trade.

NYK2010
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Last I checked Mello is still

Last I checked Mello is still young at 26, outside of Billups, Carter and Mason all the Knicks are under 30.

If you want to talk about young players Fields, Douglas, Brewer, Shawne and Walker are all under 26 and don't forget the 1st rounder in the upcoming draft.

Remember the entire Knicks team has been overhauled since last year only Toney Douglas and Bill Walker remain from the team a year ago. The team is no where near done with the roster.

The bench will change drastically with Mason, Carter, Shelden Williams, Shawne Williams, Bill Walker, Azubuike and Brewer are all free agents.

iguapops420
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I'm shocked this thread is

I'm shocked this thread is still going strong. Knicks with a great trade. End it. Now someone please give me some response on if Corey Brewer is a Knick or Nugget. It would help this debate, as that trade was somewhat part of this. Makes losing those younger guys hurt less. Not to mention with the emergence of Shawne Williams, and the hidden athleticism of Bill Walker, they didn't really lose too much depth that can't be replaced. Not to mention the managed to keep pride of the second round Landry Fields. If thats not a good move I don't really know what is.

BKKnicksfan
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Now someone please give me

Now someone please give me some response on if Corey Brewer is a Knick or Nugget

Why not go on ESPN? He's a Knick.

iguapops420
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^^^

LOL, that was my point, they gave conflicting information. The site the day of the trade deadline had him going to Denver, but the sshow and a couple other sites had him staying a kinick. Then why i this even a debate. NY lost a decent athlete with bad knees, a shooter who could potentially be a Peja type(defensive liability), a center with POTENTIAL to be GORTAT, and a couple crappy firsts. Now they have two stars(Amare-Melo), a captain with experience(Billups),a good hustle/glue guy to either start or come off the bench (Fields), a potential defensive stopper with a spot up 3(Brewer), a center with similar build/athleticism as Mozgov to bring over and develop(Jordan), a developing young PG(Douglas), and a couple good athletes who fit the system(Turiaf-Williams-Walker-Azabuike). Sounds to me like they did pretty damn good. Too many young talents on a team can ultimately lead to bad chemistry when they all play the same position which Gallo,Chandler,Fields, and to an extent even Randolph. I think it was a smart move. They could have lost Wilson to Free Agency anyways. And Gallo is a defensive liabilty who has already had back issues.

Knicks 1

Nuggets0

Da1pot
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Good for both teams because

Good for both teams because like the Knicks, the Nuggets are also not a finished product. Melo was gonna leave anyway so Denver got some value for him and the Knicks feel they can attract virtually anyone to come play in New York. Unfrotunately, I think Felton was just a filler and that he will be gone very soon becasue Lawson seems to be their pg of the future- at least as long as George Karl is there. Felton's agent said Felton will not be in Denver if he is not starting, so I think he will wither be traded in the offseason or bought out. Thats good news for other team who need a decent starting pg, like Minnesota, Toronto, Sacramento maybe even the Lakers.....

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Chemistry

Miami started out a .500 team and had 3 of the top 20 players in the league. The Knicks have a solid team but need to fill in role guys that fit with STAT and Melo. Denver put a great team around Melo they just got old/injury prone so he wanted out...STAT had a great situation in PHX but he didnt feel like the organization had his back. These 2 are unlike any Forward combo I've ever seen, they are very potent offensively and I seen flashes in the past 2 games that show me once the pieces are in place they are no doubt a top 2 team in the East(with the Heat).

The Knicks should get a PG after Billups who can create off the pick and roll, push the ball in transition and knock down 3's. Stephen Curry would be ideal for this team if only the Knicks could've drafted him in 2009. The player I see the Knicks going after in FA is Chris Paul but if they want to put more pieces around these guys they'll draft a PG and have D'Antoni and Billups develop him into the player they need. Jimmer Freddette is that man who will go high in the draft and the Knicks will pick in the 20's so it seems unlikely but they might be able to swing a deal as some GM's might not wanna have an Adam Morrison effect on their franchise but he'd be ideal for New York. A year behind Billups and creating chemistry with STAT and Melo would help out a lot

They also need a BIG who can clog the lane defensively. Kendrick Perkins is the man to put in the middle if not Perk then Marc Gasol as they can sign him long term. Decline Billups option and give him a 2 year/10mil deal put Jimmer behind him and then go after a scorer in FA like Jamal Crawford, re sign Azubuike as their defender/shooter and bring in Jerome Jordan.

This would be a team with depth and a full training camp and start to the season.

Anthony-Stoudemire-Perkins-Billups-Fields

Azubuike-Williams-Jordan-Freddette-Crawford

This is highly possible and looks better than Anthony/Stoudemire/Paul/minimum role guys

Michael.S.
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I agree with rtbt here. The

I agree with rtbt here. The Knicks gave up far too much for Anthony. Plus they had something decent going on in NY already... Big gamble.

NYK2010
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Gave up far too much I can

Gave up far too much I can see that, had something going they were more than a few games over .500 at their best but that was before they hit the tough part of the schedule.

I think your forgetting about the cap with this statement.

They also need a BIG who can clog the lane defensively. Kendrick Perkins is the man to put in the middle if not Perk then Marc Gasol as they can sign him long term. Decline Billups option and give him a 2 year/10mil deal put Jimmer behind him and then go after a scorer in FA like Jamal Crawford, re sign Azubuike as their defender/shooter and bring in Jerome Jordan.

The Knicks can't afford Billups a Center and Jamal Crawford.

They'll be around 45-46 million, even if the cap stays at 58-59 million Billups and a Center will put them right at the cap. No midlevel for them obviously since they'll be under the cap so they won't be able to pay Crawford.

This would've been my dream lineup for the Knicks but obviously getting all these players would be really tough now obviously it won't happen.

Rubio/Mayo/Mello/Blatche/Dwight Howard

Bench Douglas/ Fields/Walker/Anderson/Williams/Jeffries & Barron or Jerome Jordan.

Figure trading Chandler and a pick for O.J. Mayo.

Trade Felton, Randolph and picks for Rubio and a cap filler.

Trade Amare, Gallo for Howard and Ryan Anderson.

Trade Turiaf, a 1st rounder and a cap filler for Blatche

Mello and Jeffries sign as free agents.

If only it was that easy.

iguapops420
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Jordan is going to surprise

Jordan is going to surprise people when he comes over with his shotblocking and ability to run the foor. He's actully got a pretty decent post game and a little jumper. I think he will fit in well with what D'Antoni is trying to do with this Knicks team.

knicksfreak
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Chauncey will be more than

Chauncey will be more than serviceable for the remaining season and a half on his contract.

That is the exact same length of contract Felton has so it was an even trade between them.

Carmelo and Billups add 2 huge scoring threats especially late in games. So now if the Knicks need a late bucket, other teams cannot just merely double Stoudemire.

Melo's true value was shown his first game when the Bucks had to collapse and double Carmelo and Amare leaving Turiaf and others wide open for easy buckets.

No one had to double Chandler or Gallo.

Melo's presence on the floor automatically makes it easier for his teammates to score

BothTeamsPlayedHard
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"Next, the Knicks were

"Next, the Knicks were developing excellent team chemistry with their core of young players who were all improving and playing well together. Now four of those promising young players are Nuggets, along with a bevy of draft choices."

Where was that excellent chemistry when the team was 12-16 in the two months prior to the deal? Is this the imaginary chemistry that exists when the Knicks played the weakest schedule in the NBA over the first two months of the season?

"the issue up for debate is do you strip your team of your young, core talent to get Anthony"

A mediocre .500 team like the Knicks that was going nowhere? Without blinking.

"He is already a far superior player to Peja."

I must have missed the guy named Peja who was a career 42 percent shooter.

rtbt
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What A Simpleton Approach

Peja 42%. There you go, judge a basketball player on a single stat.

Peja can do only one thing and that's shoot jump shots. He doesn't rebound, play defense, isn't a very good passer, and he isn't a very good ball handler.

Gallanari is an excellent ball handler, he drives to the hoop with both his strong and weak hands, he's an adequate rebounder for a small forward, and his defensive skills are superior to those of Peja.

As for the Knicks, judging them only on stats is another simpleton approach. One has to watch the team on a regular basis and see how they perform as a unit. Are they improving over the course of the season or regressing?

Anyone who watched most of their games saw a team that was progessively getting better every week. Were they ready to challenge the Celtics? I don't think so. However, their team chemistry meshed, they were gaining confidence, and they were playing very well as a unit. In addition, they had a solid and deep bench that was also playing with confidence. Now none of the above is true. They no longer have a deep bench and their big man situation is dire.

rtbt
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knicksfreak on the trade

Knicksfreak, as I read over this thread, I don't think I saw a single comment that said or implied Carmelo Anthony wasn't a great offensive threat. That's a given, everyone agrees he's a major force on the offensive end of the court. Chauncey Billups is and has been an elite player for a long time. In addition, he's a class act and fantastic leader.

There are two questions in this thread up for debate.

1. Did the Knicks give up too much for Carmelo and an aging Chauncey Billups? Most people think it was a good trade for the Knicks while I disagree with them.

2. Did the subtraction of the Knicks core of young talent and the addition of a ball hog like Anthony, set up the Knicks for a scenario where team chemistry will be harmed?

There are many strong opinions in this thread but nobody will know the answer to these questions for at least 18 months. One thing we know for sure, the combination of Carmelo Anthony and a young Chauncey Billups in Denver didn't exactly set the league on fire. Why will it be more successful in New York, especially with age catching up on Chauncey?

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There are many strong

There are many strong opinions in this thread but nobody will know the answer to these questions for at least 18 months. One thing we know for sure, the combination of Carmelo Anthony and a young Chauncey Billups in Denver didn't exactly set the league on fire. Why will it be more successful in New York, especially with age catching up on Chauncey?

........

knicksfreak
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rtbt: Why do you keep

rtbt: Why do you keep dwelling on Billups age? I am confident he we be a good starting PG until the end of next season and thats as long as we need him to be.

The knicks have also played a good part of this season without Gallinari and Chandler both in the lineup due to injuries so I dont feel like we are hurting that much by losing them.

Carmelo and Billups combined to make Denver a serious contender in a tough western conference. They did not have any players of Stoudemire's caliber on that roster with them. That leads me to believe that they can make some noise in the Eastern conference playoffs joined with Stoudemire.

As for team chemistry; Fields and Billups are great gel guys. Turiaf is a great team player too. I think Melo and Stoudemire with make eachother less selfish knowing they now have help.

It will take some time but the Knicks will learn eachothers game and come together. Hopefully for the playoffs but if not then definitely next season.

knicksfreak
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Oh and the Knicks were not

Oh and the Knicks were not going to re-sign Chandler this offseason anyways. So the trade was basically Felton and Gallo for Melo and Billups. The Knicks definitely made out better.

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Peja was an intergral part of

Peja was an intergral part of a 60-win Kings team that was a legit title contender, and during that run with the Kings was nothing short of an All-Star. Even as a shell of his former self, Peja can still hit shots at a higher rate than Gallinari for a very good Dallas team. Danilo Gallinari has taken advantage of the New York hype machine and the defense doesn't matter D'Antoni system. Nothing more. He is a guy. He won't carry a team like Melo, and he won't ever be a prominent player on a 60-win team like Peja was.

As for the team growth nonsense you spewed, teams that go 12-16 over two months after being 16-9 are not improving. It is not debatable.

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As for the team growth

As for the team growth nonsense you spewed, teams that go 12-16 over two months after being 16-9 are not improving. It is not debatable.

Thank You

rtbt
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KnicksFreak Asked

Knicksfreak asked me, "Why do you keep dwelling on Billups age?"

Because he plays PG, a position which requires more quickness and agility then any other on the court, and he will be 35 years old in September. There aren't too many 35 year old PGs who can keep up with the new generation of young, athletic PGs. However, let me repeat, Chauncey is a class act and a great leader, so if he were 3 or 4 years younger, I would probably have a different opinion on the trade.

You also left out the departure of a number one draft choice and Mozgov, whom I think will become an excellent backup center and possibly a starter on the right team. He's a young man who is still learning English, American Culture, and the game of basketball, but he has a lot of raw talent and potential. It's hard to find 7 footers who have outstanding agility, can run the court, and jump like him. His departure left a big void at the center position, especially in terms of depth.

As for team chemistry, nobody knows how that will turn out. What we do know is the pre-trade Knicks developed excellent team chemistry and were getting better every week. I know there are some mindless people who only judge a team on stats while others see a more complex view of what's happening.

I thought it was just a matter of time before they became a top tier team. Noticed I didn't say elite, but one of the better teams in the league. And in any way you look at it, they were vastly superior to last year's squad.

I happen to have a strong feeling that Amare and Anthony will not mesh well together and that will throw off team chemistry big time. I also said I could be dead wrong on this and will gladly eat my words if my prediction is wrong. But this is why we have a discussion board, so people can express different opinions.

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This man just doesn't get it.

This man just doesn't get it. Honestly.

When your telling me Chemistry, a 2014 1st round pick and Mozgov are the reasons you think New York lost this trade, you don't know about basketball.

rtbt
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KnicksBoy1 Doesn't Get it

Knicksboy1 said, "When your telling me Chemistry, a 2014 1st round pick and Mozgov are the reasons you think New York lost this trade, you don't know about basketball."

I love it, I have a teenager telling me what I do and don't know about basketball. Instead of taking only part of my argument, why don't you include everything in my arguments about Felton, Gallanari, Mozgov, a first round draft choice, a lack of depth, and two guys who both need the basketball to be effective?

Do you think you can handle that at your young age?

By the way, I think you should go back to parroting what others say, you seem to be very good at that.

BKKnicksfan
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I love it, I have a teenager

I love it, I have a teenager telling me what I do and don't know about basketball. Instead of taking only part of my argument, why don't you include everything in my arguments about Felton, Gallanari, Mozgov, a first round draft choice, a lack of depth, and two guys who both need the basketball to be effective?

That's right, you have a 17 year old kid telling you your incorrect, WITH DOZENS OF PEOPLE AGREEING WITH HIM. So what does that say about you?

By the way, I think you should go back to parroting what others say, you seem to be very good at that.

Yup, because that's what I do. All my ideas aren't original.

BKKnicksfan
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Also, tell me what questions

Also, tell me what questions you asked that I didn't answer.

I'm in a good mood, I'll answer them now so I can shut you up.

rtbt
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Shut Me Up?

Now I know for sure that you're a teenager because you're rude and crude. Teenagers and immature people don't know how to disagree with others without getting personal and negative. Maybe one day when you grow up, hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I guess my previous point sailed right over your head. You keep twisting my argument by taking only bits and pieces of what I said and pretending that's the extent of my argument. I never said Mozgov and a number one draft choice were the reasons for my disaproval of the trade. They were only two of several reasons.

And earlier in this thread you wrote, "Looks like everyone on this post agrees with me anyway, so I'm done arguing."

Guess we can't count on you to keep your word and say good-bye.

Oh and one other thing, just because you have several people who agree with you doesn't make you right. I would direct you to a play called "An Enemy of the People" about the Tyranny of The Majority as the kind of reading you need, but I suspect talking basketball on this website is already maximizing your mental skills. Here's a hint, just because the majority believe something doesn't make it right.

BKKnicksfan
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Give me the questions you

Give me the questions you want me to answer.....so I can shut you up.

flyboy
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Disagree completely

Carmelo as the #1 I don't think would have won championships with Denver. But in NY with another #1 caliber player in Stoudamire, the potential to get a third great player to play with them, solid role players in Fields, Douglas, Turiaf and Shawne Williams, the Knicks are in a much better position now, and in the future, than they were pre-trade. The bottom line is, you always choose stars over role players. You can find role players, but the chance to get a star is rare. Now the Knicks have the capabilites of putting together another super team, which they didn't have previously.

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Thanks Flyboy....some people

Thanks Flyboy....some people just don't get it.

rtbt
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Flyboy on the Trade

Flyboy, you made a very good argument but people can take the same facts and draw different conclusions.

  • I think that a team where Ronny Turiaf is your starting center, and there is no depth at that position, is going nowhere fast.
  • I also happen to think the premise of your argument, Amare and Anthony playing together, may in fact be a negative. Those are both guys who need the ball in their hands. Maybe I'll turn out to be wrong and I will gladly admit it if they turn into a dynamic duo.
  • Before the trade they had the same benefit in that if opponents double teamed Amare down low, Gallanari, Chandler, and Fields could drain threes.
  • Landry Fields [excellent young player], Shawne Williams, and Douglas are decent role players but the guys they gave up provided the kind of depth and balance a team needs to win. They no longer have that depth and balance.
  • I believe Gallanari and Felton were far more than role players. I think Felton proved he was a first class PG, and as I've stated in this thread many times, I believe the 22 year old Gallanari is a special young talent who will eventually become one of the better SFs in the game. He isn't there yet, but I can see that happening within one or two years.
  • Mozgov: He's a young man who is still learning English, American Culture, and the game of basketball, but he has a lot of raw talent and potential. It's hard to find 7 footers who have outstanding agility, can run the court, and jump like him. His departure left a big void at the center position, especially in terms of depth as in Turiaf starting.
  • And finally, it may be 3 years away but you never know who that number one draft choice they gave up will turn out to be. We do know they gave up some 2nd round choices.
BKKnicksfan
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Your thoughts on this trade

Your thoughts on this trade are on extreme what if's.

Also, give me these questions you want me to answer.

NYK2010
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Never thought I'd agree with

Never thought I'd agree with Bothteamplayedhard.

I have to rbt gotta argue with this statement

Gallanari is an excellent ball handler, he drives to the hoop with both his strong and weak hands, he's an adequate rebounder for a small forward, and his defensive skills are superior to those of Peja.

Gallo isn't a decent ball handler but he has a tendency to keep his head down when driving.

Put it this way he's not Scottie Pippen. He gives you the effort on defense but he's not that good of a defender. An adequate rebounder at 5 rebs a game come on he's below average. He has the ability to hit clutch shots and has improved a lot driving to the rim but I doubt he'll ever be a legit top scorer.

iguapops420
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Felton is an above average PG

Felton is an above average PG who has managed to play at an all-star level for a large part of the year,... yet with all of this supposed talent/impact that Gallo,Chandler,Mozgov bring, they still have only managed to linger aroud .500 on the season. IMO, its addition by subtraction. Felton himself needs the ball to much and can't shoot the three to save his life which is a big part of D'Antoni's game. Not to mention Chandler or Gallo were often played as the 3/4's on the team with Amare getting the minutes at the 5. I'd really have to think that D'Antoni has seen the recent success of the Suns since he has left with their implimenting defense and players at their natural positions.

As I said earlier, Jerome Jordan isn't that far off from Mozgov in terms of what they bring, while also being more intimidating. Mozgov wasn't a huge part of the team, so waiting till the offseason and bringing him over isn't that big of a hit. Gallo was a decent offensive player who lacked consistency, and would usually lose his match up when put in isolations situations defensively. Fields brings the intangibles to the table while being able to hit the three and hustle. He's a glue guy who doesn't need touches to be effective.

Insert Corey Brewer in a side deal for seldom used Anthony Randolph. In Brewer, the Knicks get a defensive mided role player with good athleticism and potential Stopper. Doesn't hurt that he's a sound, fundamental passer who can hit the 3 ball at a respectable clip. Both important aspects to the 2 in D'Antoni's offense which could potentially move Fields to the bench as a nice burst of high energy. Add in the development of Shawne Williams, and the possibility of Walker having it click, its a good trade if you ask me.

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