Cleveland isn't much of a team.
The East is weak. Your also not realizing that some players would get more PT and would have to factor in different ways
- J.J. Hickson would get more PT. He could be a 16-8 player with more PT
- Anthony Parker is a shooter. He could average 9-12
- Moon could average 8-12
- West could average 8-14
You have to take some of these other players in account as well.
Shaq isn't going back to CLE..
He wanted to win another ring to top Kobe.. You really think he's going to waste another year on a team he knows won't win?
I'm not buying the Hickson stuff.
Another thing you guys have to take into account is that, nobody on this team can really create their own shot, aside from Jamison.. And pulling up for 30 footers isn't creating your own shot, I'm talking to you Mo Williams.
Most of this guys did well because LeBron was getting double or tripled and that left some guys open.
Jamison was a consistant 20 point scorer before, and Williams would go back to what his numbers were before he cam to Cleveland, maybe more around 17 6 3 1.5 shooting 48% from the field, thats very good for a guard, hes a legit second option.
William? A legit 2nd option? Did you guys watch him at all this season/post season?
Problem with Jamison is, he's a horrible defender. At SF or PF, he's a horrible defender.
Easily one of the worst defensive teams without LeBron.. Aside from West and Moon.
I don't consider Varejao a defender, he's a flopper.
That's the problem. That's why Cleveland's offense is so stagnant. LeBron is as creative offensively as Mike Brown is. We just don't see it since he's such a freak athlete.
That's why I keep saying LeBron needs to improve his game and stop being so ball dominant/dependent on isolations. He needs to work on moving without the ball, catching and shooting, one and two dribble pull ups, his post/in between game, etc. I think this would make him easier to play with and surround with quality players.
What makes you think
Fisher
Shannon Brown?
Artest
Gasol
Bynum
Odom
and who else?? DJ MBenga? Farmar? Luke Walton? Vujajic? Morrison?
This team has good depth in the front court with Gasol, Bynum, and Odom. But that's about it. We all know Gasol can't carry a team by himself... I don't think Bynum can take on too much more of a scoring role.. And there is no bench. Don't underestimate how helpful a deep bench is.
This team would be a bottom-seeded playoff team.
No too much different than the Cavs.
Fisher
Artest
Odom
Gasol
Bynum
That's a line-up that would probably be the biggest team in the league and Gasol is a legit 1st option on any team. Artest has a couple of 20ppg seasons under his belt. Odom can easily be a 16-10-6 guy. Bynum will someday be the franchise player of this laker team, 4-6 years from now.
Artest can't guard SG's anymore... Odom at SF gives you limited range.. There is ZERO bench involved in that team other than Shannon Brown-- None of those guys are young enough or healthy enough to take on really big minutes( as in almost the whole game)..
Artest is an ineffecient scorer--he shouldn't score over 20 and he probably would struggle to at this point in his career. Bynum SOMEDAY will be a franchise player in 4-6 years.. someday is the key term their...
Williams/Gibson/Telfair
Parker/West
Jamison/Moon
Varejao/Hickson
Shaq/Illguaskas
That is not a playoff team.
That team would go about 28-54. They would be no better than the Wizards this year when they had Jamison. Hell, that lineup is honestly one of the worst in the league how can you guys think that is a playoff team? Jamison isn't going to get anymore than 18 and 8. Williams might score a little more without LeBron, but it would only be because he took way way more shots and his field goal percentage would be awful. Parker at the 2? Not near a solid starting 2. Varejao is a good bench/energy guy ala Robin Lopez, not a starting 4. But with him and Hickson, that would not be a bad power forward rotation. Than at center, they are awful. Shaq gets 20 minutes a game, are you gonna throw in a washed up Illgauskas for 28? Get real people, this team would be lucky to win 25-30 games.
When Pau was the #1 option his team won 26 games.
For the Cavs:
West and Parker can both score 12-13 PPG
Mo Williams can score 17-18 PPG
Jamison can score 20 PPG
It mostly depends on how good u think Hickson can be.. As a starting Center, in 25 MPG he averaged 11 and 7... If he was the full-time starter you'd have to expect he'd average about 35 MPG which would be about 14-15 PPG and 9-10 RPG..
With Shaq coming in playing 15-20 minutes a night, big Z coming in for about 10-15 and Varejao getting PT(to the tune of about 9 points, 8 rebounds) this team has some depth you also have to look at Jomario Moon, Boobie Gibson, and Leon Powe
This teams starting line-up is worse than the Lakers without Kobe--- But this team is much deeper.
I think the Lakers would still be able to win 45-50 games without Kobe. Gasol is a lot better than on the Grizzlies and he didn't have Bynum (NBA's biggest center that still has agility and athleticism), Odom (NBA's most versatile PF), and Artest (NBA's best perimeter defender, look how he played Durant). This team would still be good and win 45-50 as opposed to the Cavs 25-30 without LeBron.
I am not a fan of either team. It's clear as day that the Lakers could have won more than 57. They were waiting for the playoffs to play their best basketball. You can't just make up false statistics like I am saying Kobe is worth 7 games and LeBron 31. It is a different situation. I mean are you saying since the Lakers won less games than the Cavs, the Cavs they are that many games better? Clearly the Lakers are better, reguardless of the regular season record. I definitely think LeBron is worth more games, maybe ten more than Kobe, but it is clearly a different situation. The Lakers have a good lineup and still would without Kobe. The Cavs have a bunch of role players, and without LeBron they would have no leader, or go to guy. Jamison is not a go to guy. They may have a decent bench still, but you need atleast one go to guy. Gasol is better than Jamison. Bynum and Odom might even be better. And Artest, who would be the Lakers 4th best option, is a better player than Mo Williams. It is just a different situation, but yes LeBron is definitely worth more to his team than Kobe. If LeBron leaves, Cleveland better start hoping for good luck with the lottery balls.
@MrAnalyst
I'm just going off of what you said:
- "I think the Lakers would still be able to win 45-50 games without Kobe."
- "Cavs 25-30 without LeBron."
The Lakers went 57-25 this year, while the Cavs went 61-21. Do the math. Judging by the highest number, that means you're saying that Kobe was only worth seven extra victories this year, while LeBron was worth an extra 31. LeBron is NOT 24 victories better than Kobe.
What this boils down to is that the Cavs are definitely better than a 30 win team in the Eastern Conference without LeBron.
Like I said, it is a different situation. If Kove was on the Cavs this year, I can see them winning 50 games, without him, 25. So that makes Kobe worth 25 games in that situation. Like I said, it is a different situation. A great player impacts a bad team more than he does a good team. Clearly the Lakers are worth more than 57 games and clearly the Cavs are worth less than 61. You can not just base all your arguments off of statistics all the time. Throw LeBron on the Nets next year, I bet they win 45 games, like 30 some more than this year. Throw him on the Mavs, they probably win 65 at the max, which is like 10 more games. It is a different situation and like I said, a great player alters the number of wins on a bad team, way more than a good team. For instance, if you go to a 62 win team, you can only change the team by 20 games, and clearly no one will go undefeated ever. If you go to a 12 win team, you can change it by 70. It is not comparable.
Okay well if you want to go by statistics all the time than, yes you are right, the cavs are better than the lakers, even though they are watching the playoffs and the lakers are playing in them right? Clearly the lakers were holding it in for the playoffs.
That's not even true.
When he came back he averaged OVER 20 MPG for the last 11 games in the regular season.
In the playoffs his minutes were reduced but that was not because he couldn't do it. It's because A) Mike Brown is an idiot B) Brown was trying to play match-ups
PG - Mo Williams/Daniel Gibson/Sebastian Telfair
SG - Anthony Parker/Delonte West
SF - Antawn Jamison/Jamario Moon
PF - JJ Hickson/Anderson Varejao/Leon Powe
C - Shaquille O'Neal/Zydrunas Illgauskas
If you don't think that team could at least compete for an 8th playoff seed in the East, you're just crazy. That team is deep. They could get through the regular season with a .500 record.
My team, the Indiana Pacers won 32 games. That Cleveland team is AT LEAST 8-10 games better than the Pacers.
Toronto only won 40 games this year. I think Cleveland minus LeBron James could win 40-42 games. The difference between Cleveland and Toronto is defense. Cleveland would still be a good defensive team without LeBron. Losing LeBron would hurt, but it's not like they'd all of the sudden start giving up 106 points like Toronto did this season.
Like I said... You can win 41 games and make the playoffs in the East. Cleveland minus LeBron would be in competition for an 8th seed.
Either way you look at it Cleveland without Lebron is a bad team. This East is not a very strong conference. There are three top tier teams right now: Orlando, Boston and Cleveland. The other 12 teams in the East are bad. None of them, the way their rosters are right now, can even dream of competing for a title in the next five years. So you are right ButlerBulldogs thery could slip into that 8th seed. You know what that makes them?? Bad at basketball.
And this is why the Cavs are sitting at home today!!!! One player being worth EVERYTHING to a TEAM is a recipe for disaster. That means that there aren't anymore quality players who can carry te load if the STAR is injured or isn't there. The Lakers, Suns, Magic, and Celtics all succeed because they don't need their STAR to go crazy for points every night! They have good enough compliments to the star that can step off and beat you while you focus on the primary objective.
its funny i just got in a argument with my friend about this and i was saying really when u compare rosters of suns, lakers, magic, celtics... even hawks, the cavs roster is dog shiit. I HATE LEchoke but his team wasnt the greatest. You know what they say MO ( williams) MONEY, MO PROBLEMS
I agree with butlerbulldogs about lebron learning how to play w/o the ball and being less dependent on iso's. The expectations on Lebron are ridiculous, I wasn't born until MJ's 7th season, but I can't imagine MJ had anywhere near the pressure and expectations Lebron had from the day he first stepped on to the court. Personally, Lebron needs to figure out what position he should play, and master it. I don't care if it's PG or SF, he needs a position to stick to, learn it, and then be great at it. If he wants to be a big PG like Magic, then let him. I think what Lebron needs is if he continues to be a ball dominant player is the following kind of starting 5.
Him at the PG
An undersized combo guard who is a shooter (stephen curry type)
A versatile small forward who can guard shooting guards
A good defensive 4 with strong low post moves
A legit 7' at the center position with good basketball playing abilities.
This would allow the PF and C to guard PF's and C's. The SF would guard the opposing team's SG, the SG would guard the opposing team's PG, and Lebron would defend the opposing team's SF. This would allow for balance on both ends of the court. Cleveland had no balance on the court, the defense was good because Mike Brown is a defensive minded guy. I do believe if Mike Brown were to coach elsewhere or a Lebron-less Cavs he would lead them to the playoffs, but nothing more. Lebron seriously needs Phil Jackson a guy that would demand a lot out of him, and make him be better than ever. He would not put up with lebron's antics.
Cleveland wasn't the good team people thought they are. All they had was one of the greatest small forward of all time. One of the greatest PLAYERS of all time.
Shaq only got about 20 minutes per game so it's obvious he cant play for long periods of time. How was he suppose to keep up with Dwights 35mpg?
Mo Williams, what was all the hype with this guy? Why do people think he choked in the playoffs? You can't choke if you really aren't that good, you're just playing your average game. He came off a 12ppg 42%FG shooting season when he went to CLE and everyone was so excited for him.. Idk why.
Antawn Jamison, I have nothing bad to say about this guy. I actually thought this addition would lead them to the finals. He's a 20-8 guy that doesn't mind taking the backseat to anybody. He's a low maintenance player but he's very confident.. Problem is, he's going to be 33 this summer.. How was he ever going to be a solid 2nd option for a player who still has 8-10 good years left in him? Jamison obviously only has about 2 good years. Maybe.
Zydrunas came back after a month vacation only to play 8 mpg?
Varejao is overpayed.
Moon was a good addition and did exactly what was expected of him.. play a couple of minutes here and there and score here and there.
Parker shot 43% but lets face it, nobody expected him to average more than 8ppg so he basically did his job.
The Celtics were KG-less last year and he nearly made it to the Conf Finals as they lost to the Magic after a 4th Qtr meltdown. The C's are a playoff team without KG. They are a playoff team w/KG and no Pierce. If they lose Ray Allen and have Pierce and KG, they're still a playoff team.
The Lakers are still a playoff team without Kobe. Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest.. You can't tell me that's not a playoff team.
The Magic without Dwight are still a playoff team. Especially in the East. You bring in Marcin Gortat who can easily be a 8-10 guy and he spreads the floor a bit more.
The Cavs without LeBron ARE NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM. Who's going to be their offensive leader? Jamison? At 33? A team that has a 33yr old Jamison as their best player and Mo Williams as their 2nd option. Isn't a good team.