is a tough one to make, but I will attempt it now.
First, the Pacers needed size more than almost any other quality from this draft. Their backup Center, Lou Admundson, is only 6'9", and a free agent. Their Power Forwards are both 6'8-9". Plumlee measured 6'11.75" in shoes.
Second, the Pacers were looking for someone to replace Jeff Foster, who retired midway through the season due to lingering back problems. Foster never wowed anyone with his offensive game, but brought rebounding, good position defense, and a little intimidation to those trying to come into the lane. Plumlee had the best per-minute rebounding of anyone drafted around him (AMoultrie, FEzeli, BJames all at least .5 rb less per 30 min).
Third, everyone knows about the great combine numbers he had. A 40 inch vertical at that height is absurd.
Fourth, he's been coached by Coach K for four years.
Finally, it was Larry Bird's last draft for the forseeable future, and Plumlee was the BWGA.
Their is no case it was a horrible pick. Point.blank.period.
how they allowed themselves to missed on Marquis Teague, he has potential to be a game changer at the PG position if he pan out and that exactly what they should look for to take the next step with their weak and unstable PG play...
I started buying into your point briefly, but then I remembered PJ3, Moultrie, Melo, Ezeli, Wroten, Teague, etc. were all still on the board. Then it occurrs to me that this was a flat-out terrible pick after all.
Melo and Wroten were already taken and do you really think Melo or Ezeli will be a lot better? The pick is not as bad as many would like to make it sounds and they really needed some size on the bench. Arnett Moutrie would have made sense but he is more a 4 than a 5, not heavy enough. I think that Plumlee fell into the right organization where he could find his spot, a kind Joel Przybilla. Time will tell but I really believe the Parcers' pick makes sense.
The Pacers needed a backup C and Plumlee can fill that role at 6'11" 252 lbs. as well see minutes at PF due to his quick feet, agility and athleticism.
Plumlee tested as the most athletic big man in the history of the NBA combine. This is absolutely significant. 40.5" inch vertical with a max vertical reach of 12'2". He timed a super quick 10.64 in the agility drill and 3.36 in the 3/4 sprint. These are much better athletic testing scores than Andre Drummond. For that matter, better athletic testing scores than the vast majority of guards and forwards.
Don't let anyone tell you the guy doesn't have skills when the video clearly shows a smooth handle for a 7 footer (or any big forward for that matter) and textbook form on his jump shot. These are impressive skills for a big man that can be developed for a lengthy NBA career. NBA teams saw these skills in Plumlee's workouts and they were impressed. Kevin Pritchard said one NBA team even tried to trade up ahead of the Pacers to draft Plumlee. The guy translates to the next level.
Also, rebounding ability happens to be one of the most important aspects of a big man and Plumlee is #1 among all center prospects in rebounds per minute, He even had a 22 rebound game vs. Maryland this past season which is the most rebounds in a game by a Duke player in 40 years.
Rebounds per 40 minutes (pace adjusted):
Miles Plumlee 13.4
Tyler Zeller 12.4
Andre Drummond 10.8
Festus Ezeli 10.2
Fab Melo 9.3
In the second round, the Pacers drafted 6'4" Orlando Johnson who's an excellent sleeper prospect at shooting guard (19.7 points per game). Athletic leaper (39 inch vertical), strong build (223 lbs), long arms (6'11" wingspan), good passer (2.9 assists per game), fearless warrior in the paint and a great shooter (42% from three). Read about Orlando Johnson and you'll see. I give the Pacers a solid *A* grade for this draft. Going into the draft, they had weak spots at their backup C and SG spots. They filled both with very capable athletes.
Plumlee will be a nice role player,he's athletic and a hard worker..Indy has always went for gambles in the draft..Sometimes it pays off like Reggie Miller ,Hibbert,Granger and Hansbrough..And sometimes it fizzles like Shawn Williams...I think they had their eyes on Evan Fournier,who if i'm correct they had him in for 2 workouts and wanted a 3rd 1,but he canceled and went to workout for the Hawks...I think if the Pacrs hadnt gotten him in the 1st round,nobody else would've drafted him in the 1st round....But according to reports today,the Bobcats were looking at him at the 31st pick...
While you make some good points, there is one test that Plumlee failed miserably. The eye test. Watched him for 4 years at Duke, and while he does have the athletic tools...and he is actually more skilled offensively than he showed and is given credit for....it seems to be his mentality that made him a role player at Duke and will limit his ability to stay on a roster in the NBA once his rookie deal is paid off.
Playing for Coach K for four years may give you enough tools to stick in the league, but playing for him also limits your chances of translating into a better pro player than college. I can only think of one player who played for more than 2 years under K that became a better pro than college player and that was the highly regarded Grant Hill.
I know people will say McRoberts was lazy and had an ego, but Plumlee doesnt have 1/4th the ability of McRoberts, and even less confidence in his ability to be more than a spot minute player.
Plumlee was getting drafted, just because of his athletic testing...but again, if you watched him at Duke, its hard to see why this was a surprise. Thats what he and Mason are known for, their athleticism. Mason is nearly as raw offensively, the difference is, Mason has a different mentality....he believes he is good..and he has a mean streak.
If Plumlee wouldve played with the zeal and urgency that he did on Senior night for more of the year, then this pick wouldve looked a helluva lot better....but still not good enough to take him over Teague, PJIII or Moultrie. Even take Quincy Miller and trade him for a veteran to a team who didnt have another 1st round pick.....like Denver, who ended up taking Miller in the 2nd. Maybe rights to Miller for Mozgov? Point is, there are a lot of different directions they couldve went with this pick and I was baffled at why they didnt take Teague, because I had Teague going there in my mock provided he was still on the board...which I really doubted even though I had him there.
"Playing for Coach K for four years may give you enough tools to stick in the league, but playing for him also limits your chances of translating into a better pro player than college. I can only think of one player who played for more than 2 years under K that became a better pro than college player and that was the highly regarded Grant Hill."
Can you please explain that? Or is this just the regular Carolina fan rhetoric where the longer you play for Coach K the worse you become?
been over that before here...Coach K does not develop players for the next level, great college guys, but not better pros... call it UNC fan rhetoric or whatever. nearly every Duke player that has even been mildly successful in the NBA was a high level recruit coming out of HS. yet still failed to become better pros. Only Grant Hill met or exceeded expectations if looking at someone who played for more than 2 years there. yeah they have the most NBA frontline starters but all players that were heavily hyped out of HS, even though Boozer was a 2nd rounder, he was big time HS recruit. same as Deng, same as Brand, same as Maggette, so on so on so on. but look at the Dockery's, the Ewing's, etc...even the Sheldon Williams', the Laettner's, the Duhon's. all great recruits, great college, mediocre pros if they made it that far. I can go on for days.
Ah....so for the last couple years the rhetoric was that Duke doesn't produce NBA players...
And now that we have the most in the NBA and most productive as a collective whole you guys have changed your tune.
Now it's well...well...Coach K didn't do anything to help them to get into the NBA. He didn't help them to have long careers blah blah blah.
Let me ask you a question...so what NBA players has UNC, Kentucky etc. put in the NBA that WEREN'T high level recruits themselves.
Miles Plumlee was RSCI ranked #81 in his class and he just got drafted in the first round of the NBA.
No matter what the haters will always find something else.
I don't really hate Duke, but it's true. They don't produce high-level NBA players most of the time. Boozer is the only one I can really name in the past ten years, and he BARELY qualifies because he was drafted in 02.
But it's fine. It's actually impressive in its own way: Coach K makes tournament runs with teams that are filled with average players.
I understand that. I really do. We haven't produced a star in the last 10 years (Kyrie isn't there yet), but how come a bunch of other schools don't get the kind of hate that Duke gets on it.
It's a double standard against Duke, and how come we never hear anything about Carolina in the last 10 years?
They've been worse than us yet they don't even get a peep of this negative propaganda against Duke players who have aspirations of playing in the NBA.
Now I'm not saying Carolina is bad at producing players, I think they're pretty good. But using the millions of Duke haters' logic...if Duke is horrible at producing pros...then what is Carolina? Incredibly horrible at producing pros?
Another thing we don't really get the top level talent that schools like Carolina, Kentucky, and UCLA get. Yes we McDAA's but we don't usually get that kind of sure fire NBA talent and yet we STILL have the most players in the NBA. We've had maybe three players that were deemed to be surefire NBA talent in the last 20 years. Grant Hill, Elton Brand, and Jayson Williams. Grant became a superstar. Elton became a multi time all star. And Jayson Williams ruined his career in a motorcycle accident in his rookie year.
I mean would you come to Duke if you were a sure fire NBA star even if it was only for one year? I wouldn't. Why would you would you opt to go to a private university when you could go to a big state school where you don't have to worry about academics or how few people there are.
There's a double standard against Duke and I'm sick of it.
I think you're pretty much right. A lot more people like Carolina then they do Duke, so they'll always get more of the benefit of the doubt. You can also blame Jordan for that.
That's the thing. They're have been busts on both sides but Duke is the only one getting flack for it.
Duke has produced better players (drafted in the 21st century) than UNC is just fact and I have numbers that could back it up. But I don't really care, I just bring it up every now and then whenever UNC fans start bashing our players (which they seem to have an obsession of doing).
I don't get why you box in "development" to being players who stayed there for four years. Those are the players that have the worst NBA potential and that's why they've stayed four years! Our four year guys aren't great athletes like yours. They're usually slow unatheltic shooters so I'm sorry if we don't turn those guys into MJ or something.
But Coach K prepares THOSE players to do exactly what they'll do in the pros...be a role player. And isn't that the best thing a coach can do? That's what he did with Miles...though I think we could've seen better performances from him if Mason wasn't the sole focus in the post.
My point is...if Duke gets flack for their production of pros recently...than UNC should too.
But the thing is I think both of those statements are false...and if you disagree than I can tell we won't agree on this matter no matter how hard I try to use logic with you.
hey, I am not discussing UNC here, I am talking about Duke...ALL TIME, not just the 21st century. Maybe thats why you feel I am biased, I am not. I give credit where credit is due. UNC has not done anything in the 21st century really....so you wont hear me talking out of both sides of my mouth. Actually, Roy Williams is not a good developer for the next level either...plus he lost some key members to the staff like Phil Ford who was instrumental in working with PG's. The staff is nothing to brag about, but we continue to get top talent just off the UNC name alone.
Duke's 21st century draft picks have been more successful on a whole than UNC's. I dont agree that because a player goes there for more than 2 years they should only be deemed as role players on the next level.
Duke gets some wonderful athletes at times, but they just dont seem to work in their style of play or they dont seem to be able to get the most out of them. The Plumlees are prime example. Those players sometimes turn out to be good college players but never develop any necessary skills to be BETTER as pros. Brian Davis.....elite athlete. Thomas Hill, elite athlete. Remember those guys? Could do nothin in the pros.
You are right, there shouldnt be a double standard, I am man enough to admit that UNC really hasnt done much in a while on the big stage since Carter and Jamison. Lawson looks to be one of the next really good pros, and we will see what this year's draftees do.
its not hate, trust me, its not...its fact, not a double standard.
Duke does get top level players. The top level players that Duke had (Boozer, Duhon, Price, Dockery, McRoberts) were all lightly regarded by the time they left! Dockery and Price didnt even get drafted I dont think. Price was a top 10 player, maybe even top 5 iirc. Scouts said they were amazed at the talent Dockery had when he worked out for NBA teams, they couldnt believe this guy was hiding down at Duke.
How has UNC been worse in the last 10 years???? Felton and Lawson starting PG's right now. Green has started this year, Brendon Haywood, Marvin Williams....yeah, those players arent that great, but still...thats on the downside. Dont blame MJ for this perception. Where is your Wallace? Where is your Stackhouse (NBA scoring champ at 29ppg), where is your Vince Carter? Its funny too that Vince Carter is a guy who most feel fell short of expectations, yet he has scored almost 25k points. Carter struggled when he got to UNC because Dean made him learn how to handle the ball and play defense....basically Vince was just an elite athlete with decent tools when he came to UNC. Jamison wasnt even widely regarded as the best player in the state....Tyrone Outlaw of Person High was up until a late surge by Jamison.
Players have to go to school somewhere, and Duke is excellent choice for a SCHOOL. Its basically an Ivy League school in the south.
I will end off with this. Amile Jefferson chose Duke over NC State. If he wants to be successful at the next level, that may not have been the best choice....on the flipside....Jefferson probably knows he is going to be there for a while, so why not get the best education and degree? Ultimately, I think Jefferson made the right choice if he is not really focusing on just basketball. He will however face the obstacle of getting recruited over or not getting any burn...just ask Gbinije.
and you know what the funny thing is? we are discussing Miles Plumlee...and I actually think Miles Plumlee is a much better player than he showed at Duke. If you read above, I didnt say he wasnt 1st round talent. He actually is. I said it was his mentality...but that has something to do with the coach and the system and your role. Plumlee has 1st round talent and ability....he showed that on Senior Night. Which was kind of reminiscent of Dockery. I thought Dockery was garbage only because he didnt do anything at Duke, but his last few games there, he showed out and I was like, damn! This guy is good!
The fact that Plumlee was not a better college player further reinforces my point that he lacked the development.
Duke has had some busts, as do many schools that put so many players in the league. I feel the stereotype is un-warranted, though. These are two guys in addition to Boozer, drafted in the past 10 years, playing at a very high level who were playing at a very high level last season.
ROY - Kyrie Irving
2012 NBA All-Star and 2012 All-Defensive 2nd teamer - Luol Deng
Not to mention
2012 NBA Champion and 3 X All-Defensive teamer - Shane Battier
1999 ROY, 2 X All-Star, 2 X Offensive Rebound leader - Elton Brand
1995 ROY, 7 X All-Star, 5 X All-NBA 1st or 2nd teamer - Grant Hill
3 X 20 + ppg scorer - Corey Maggette
And other solid pros like Mike Dunleavy ( 12.1 ppg career average), Gerald Henderson ( 15.1 ppg at age 24 ), and other long term reliable backups like Chris Duhon, J.J. Reddick, Josh McRoberts and Dahntay Jones.
Yeah, Sheldon Williams was a bust, but it's just not true to say that Duke doesn't produce good NBA players. When you look at the current Duke players in the NBA, you have All-Stars at the top, solid specialists like Corey Magette, Shane Battier, and Mike Dunleavy in the middle, solid rotation players at the bottom and a hand full of promising young players like Kyrie Irving, Gerald Henderson, and Nolan Smith who have recently entered the league. It's unfair and false to say Coach K doesn't develop talent. He does. He wouldnt have such a prominant role in USA Basketball if he didn't. I also root against Duke, but you can't overlook the truth.
joewolf, read carefully, I didnt say produce....I said develop. Kyrie Irving played 10 games there. He didnt have to go there. Maggette didnt start, and Coach K was upset at the fact that he actually was a one-and-done.
Talk about guys that played more than 2 years. Dunleavy? (12.1ppg career avg) so is that to say he was warranted at the #3 pick in the draft? Stop it. One of the worst top 3 picks ever. Henderson, he is good and we havent seen what he can do yet. But you are missing my point. You named reliable backups like Duhon....he was rated at least as high as the 6th best player coming out of HS. 2nd round pick. Dahntay? Decent player, he went 20th in the draft, I can go with him, but he hasnt exceeded expectations and only played at Duke for 2 years. Redick is good, and I like him...but do you think he has lived up to his 11th pick draft status?
and oh yeah, Josh McRoberts....sad....he shouldve never went to Duke (like Chris Burgess, Ricky Price and Sean Dockery). I agree he was a lazy player, but still, if you remember that team, Coach K didnt know how to use that guy. A great athlete with much better skills than any of the Plumlees. His stock dropped each year he was at Duke and he just split or he wouldve probably not got drafted at all. Wasnt McRoberts like the top HS player in 2005? Wasnt he higher rated than Andrew Bynum, Monte Ellis, Tyler Hansbrough, Blatche, Lou Williams, Chalmers, etc....Luckily, Elliot Williams got out of there because the style was holding him back.
You cant make a case for development for a player that just passes through Duke like Kyrie Irving...no age minimum and he wouldve went straight outta HS.
Lets not use UNC...lets look at the guys that UCLA and UCONN are developing/producing.
we can debate this all day and you dont have a leg to stand on. I didnt say Duke/Coach K doesnt produce NBA players....I said they dont DEVELOP...I can name a ton of UNC players that were as good or better pros or at least lived up to expectations if not surpassed. Most under Dean, but some even under Roy Williams. Such as Danny Green, Ty Lawson, Ray Felton, Vince Carter, Shammond Williams (who was barely recruited if at all coming out of HS), Hubert Davis (scholarship as a favor to Walter Davis, and even still Dean said he likely wouldnt play much at UNC), Antawn Jamison, etc...and these are just in recent history. All of those players lived up to or exceeded NBA expectations.
Name some Duke players that played there for more than 2 years that lived up to or exceeded expectations coming out of HS! Grant Hill. Maybe Battier, but even still, thats a stretch for a guy who was a college POY. Jamison was college POY, and he was 6th man of the year and 2x All Star, but look at his career averages of 19.5ppg and 8rpg in 17 years. I would say he lived up to his expectations or surpassed. Do you know that in 17 years in the league, Jamison's averages are just about the same as they were in 3 years at UNC? (19ppg and 9.9rpg in college).
Jay Williams wouldve been a good one if not for the accident. I will give you Carlos Boozer, but he was almost wrecked because he was a top 10 player in HS and ended up being a 2nd round pick. I dont see how you can count guys that didnt need to go to Duke to make it to the NBA. Irving, Brand, Deng, Maggette, Rivers, etc...top level HS players that used Duke as a stop gap.
If you want to disagree, not a problem, but you will need another excuse other than playing for Coach K for 4 years to justify why you think Miles Plumlee will be a better selection than Teague, PJIII, or even Bernard James for that matter.
If they wanted size they should've went for Bernard James. He at least brings more to the table then jumping high and rebounding.
It's not that I don't like Plumlee. He had four years to produce at Duke and didn't, but his size, athleticism, defense and rebounding is worth giving a chance. I like his ability to defend the pick and roll. I like it that he plays hard. I can see where they think they've found Jeff Foster 2.0 I guess. I just absolutely ***HATE*** that we picked him in the first round.
I understand that Perry Jones didn't really serve a need, but at the point in the draft and with his upside, you swing for the fences. Arnett Moultrie and Draymond Green were also both still on the board.
Surve brought up the name Chris Burgess..I remember the hype surrounding guy when he was in high school...1 of th many next Larry Birds....