Can we stop with the Wiggins to Pippen
Can we please stop comparing Wiggins to my favorite all-time player? Do you guys watch basketball? Scottie Pippen was a point forward with a game resembling Lebron more than Wiggins. He always brought the ball up and was the ball hander in the Bulls triangle. I rarely see Wiggins take more than 3 dribbles at a time. Scottie also became a deadly clutch 3 pt shooter, the jury is still out on whether Wiggins can even shoot the three. As far as Kevin Love can we stop the idiotic he only scored on a bad team? The Wolves averaged over 108 points per game, Kevin Martin nearly 20, Pek nearly 20. In the East Wolves make the playoffs as a 5th seed easy. As far as Kevin's defense he really only struggles against athletic bigs who score on the block. He plays well against any stretch fours. So the "Is Mills open" joke is a mute point. Either way Cavs will end up doing this trade. Who cares if Wiggins is better than Love in 5 years after the Cavs win 3 titles. Love is the ideal compliment Lebron never had. Bosh developed to be close but is nowhere near the rebounder Love is.
Yea I see it from a defensive standpoint than offense when comparing Wiggins and Pippen if anything. I guess people are trying to compare Jordan and Pippen to James and Wiggins which it is way to early to do that.
I feel people mean Wiggins can be for LeBron what Pippen was for Jordan. They're saying he could be the perfect sidekick. They're not trying to say Wiggins game is anything like Pippen's. I think people might be right. With the way LeBron handles the ball he doesn't need a Pippen. He needs a player that can defend at an elite level and can be an efficient scorer. Wiggins can do those things.
Sorry, but I didn't catch many of Scottie Pippen's games as a sophomore at Central Arkansas. What was he like two years out of high school again?
Agree on every point. The cavs would be dumb not to offer Wiggins for Love. Wiggins may be pretty good or he might just be okay. Love is arguably the best pf in the league, why the heck would you not pair him with Lebron right now?
1. Because his upside is top 10 player and bonafide superstar.
2. Because the Cavs can win right now with their current roster.
3. Because the Wolves aren't in a position of leverage and are in no spot to demand players.
4. Because you don't get that kind of return in deals like this, (see Dwight Howard trade).
Just a few reasons why...
1. Upside is not a tangible asset. He could very well end up being a top ten player in five years, when Lebron is in his 16th season...
2. Ya they CAN win but they aren't better than the bulls.
3. The Wolves may not have a ton of leverage, but if the warriors offer Klay Thompson, it could force the Cavs to up the offer.
4. Not really relavant. In reality, there's no such thing as "exactly like last time"
In my opinion, love makes them a contender. Right now the cavs looks good with Lebron, but there's less reason to believe that based off of potential alone.
i dont know about the cavs being able to win with their roster right now.. i mean, their bigs are varajao, thompson, and bennett.. and didnt the magic get vucevic, harkless, and afflalo among other for dwight? i dont understand what your going for on that one...
anyways, if Love tells them he absolutely wont resign then the timberwolves will be looking for the best trade out there for them. and that probably wont end up being with cleveland.
The Cavs can't win an NBA championship right now but they might be able to compete in the east.
OP brings up really solid points, but there are two assumptions he makes that are questionable (maybe right and maybe wrong). I don't disagree with the OP, but I do think we should look at the assumptions.
1.) Andrew Wiggins cannot develop into a point forward.
Pippen went to college for four years. I never saw Pippen in college, but its not hard to squint while looking at Wiggins and imagine Pippen and a sophomore. Give Wiggins a chance to develop.
2.) Kevin Love is a superstar in a bad situation.
I really like Kevin Love. He is one of my favorite players, but he has been in the NBA for six seasons and never made it to the playoffs. I know you can blame coaches and supporting casts to an extent, but true superstars compete in playoff games. What if Kevin Love is a great-production-on-bad-teams kind of player? What if his defense really is as bad as we think? He compliments Lebron offensively perfectly, but he compliments Lebron defensively terribly. If the Cavs want to play small ball with Love and Lebron at 5 and 4, who guards Griffin? Duncan? Aldridge? Davis? Bosh? Horford? Lopez? Howard? Nowitzki? With Love, the Cavs are probably forced to never play small ball, which is where Lebron has been most effective offensively.
On the other hand, Wiggins is a perfect compliment next to Irving, Waiters, and Lebron today. He doesn't need the ball to be effective. He can establish confidence with his shot as a spot-up shooter. He can cut off the ball. And finally, he can defend the other team's best player so Bron and Irving can focus on offense. It is true that the Cavs still need a good big man to be favorites for the title, but it doesn't need to be either Wiggins or a good big man. It could be Wiggins and another big man.
Amen OP, I've made the same argument about the Wiggins/Pippen comparison. They are two totally different players on offense. Maybe sometimes people are trying to say Wiggins will be to Lebron as what Pippen was to Jordan, which is fine. I understand that analogy. But comparing Wiggins' game to Pippen's doesn't hold water.
My first comparison for Andrew Wiggins was Dr. J. That might be a better comparison for Pippen, but I can see Wiggins having a Pip like career with scoring, slashing, defending, rebounding, and finishing.
... I actually thought that Pau Gasol would have been a GREAT fit on Cleveland after they signed LeBron. Pau has a GREAT post game and can rebound. He is not a great defender but he can block some shots and take up space, either at the 4 or the 5. He is also a really good passing big man. Pau could have been the 3rd option behind LeBron and Irving with Wiggins and Waiters being good 4th and 5th options on offense. Then you can roll out some BIG LINEUPS with Wiggins at the 2, LeBron at the 3 and two 7 footers inside with Pau and Andy V. OR, they could go smaller with Irving, Waiters, Wiggins, LeBron, and Pau.
NOW, I think the perfect fit for the Cavs would be to get a stretch 5 who can shoot, defend, and rebound (like Chris Bosh). Too bad Birdman resigned with Miami. He would have been a good extra big man for Cleveland.
It will be interesting to see who fills out the Cleveland roster. MM and Ray Allen would take care of shooting off the bench, and both guys played really well with LeBron. ... still think that Cleveland needs an extra big, ideally an athletic defender who can also rebound. Maybe Ed Davis? They can probably get Patric Young pretty cheap, and he is a solid athlete who can take up space, rebound, block shots, and dunk. Look for a guy that can defend Chris Bosh, Pau and Noah on the Bulls, and Hibbert and David West on Indiana. Then defend WC bigs like Tim Duncan, Blake Griffin, and Serge Ibaka.
One guy I kind of like as a cheaper Ed Davis (but skinnier) is Dante Cunningham. Good athlete, long, and lanky with a pretty good motor. He can play the 4 (maybe some 3?), rebound and block shots. Not much of a scorer but I think he can hit a 15 footer here and there.
To me, it looks like the Cavs are set (if they get MM and another shooter), and just need to shore up their interior defense.
Just nitpicking here but it's moot point, not mute point.
I kind of like the idea of Lebron and Wiggins mainly because of what they'll be able to do on defensive. It'll be the Heat's space and pace swarming defense all over again.
Plus, we must all remember that Kyrie is the next in line for the James Harden Turnstile award.
I can see wiggins as a khawi,paul George just with less play making skill.
remember paul George wasn't a freshmen when he came to the league then it took him years to get to where he is now.
I don't discuss the love trade anymore we all know the cavs can make room to sign him out right or sign and trade with a rebuilding team when he becomes a free agent if they cant clear the cap like the warriors did for iggy.
its pointless stop mentioning the trade. I don't think the cavs are dumb they can compete this year with our without love . they young players still will need to develop with or without love.
why not wait one year being fast gets you nowhere in the nba. look at the spurs and they way they built OVER YEARS.
Almost every young athletic wing who gets compared to Scottie Pippen.
Its flat out lazy.
When people said Wiggins could be Pippen next to LeBron I just assumed they meant he'll be LeBron's sidekick like Pippen was Jordan's sidekick.
Pippen and Wiggins have many similarities. Pippen was extremely raw coming out of a small school and undoubtedly owes much of his development to Jordan, Phil Jackson probably didn't hurt either. Wiggins, also raw, only 19, and can interestingly enough learn from the current best player on the planet. Long, lean, rangy, smooth athletes, with Wiggins having more explosiveness. Wiggins has gobs of defensive potential and versatility, like Pippen. Pippen didn't shoot over 34% from 3 until his 8th year in the league and only a career 32.6%. Wiggins is already showing better than that.
Wiggins will never be the creator and facilitator that Pip was but comparisons can't all be perfect. Pippen is one of the 50 greatest players of all time. Wiggins has that type of potential. There is a reason he was the most hyped high school player since LeBron, and was even being compared to him for some time.
Sure the individual numbers for Love and offensive team metrics when he is on the floor as oppossed to when he isn't (speaks to quality of teammates as well) are almost historic, you must admit that these numbers are somewhat inflated because of the players around him. I am not moving Wiggins, and other assests for him. You can't say he only - struggles against athletic bigs who can score on the block.... plays well against stretch four's - Where is the evidence to support the second part of that statement? I highly doubt he does a good job at chasing, recovering, and running guys off the line. His lack of foot speed and quickness is the reason he struggles on D and staying in front of people, which you can do even if you aren't an athletic big who can score on the block. Pek and Love formed one of the worst big men duo in the league regarding points against in the paint.
Like I stated in my original post, which this is a clear response to, it is an interesting debate but I don't think adding Love automatically surplants them ahead of Spurs, OKC, Bulls, and other top teams in the league. I think Kyrie and Love are both talented, but overrated players, mainly because I value defense so heavily. If LeBron can be patient (and I think he will finish his career in CLE) Wiggins and LeBron will form a better duo. Fantasy numbers aren't everything. Financial flexibility and team depth also play key roles in this decision as well.
There is nothing I dislike more than people talking about how today's players are only 20 years old and 30 years ago guys were still in college.
The game was different, the learning curve was different, and it's one of the many reasons player comps that span decades apart are unbelievably stupid.
Derrick Rose was an MVP at 21. Kevin Durant was a scoring champ at 21. The best players of today's game aren't playing as if they were college players until they get to 22-23, they are immediately impacting the league.
I have no idea if Wiggins will be better, worse, similiar, or not similar to Pippen. But I do know saying "Well when Pippen was 19 he was a mediocre college player" is not even vaguely a fair argument.
At 19, Michael Beasley was one of the most destructive college players of all time. How did that work out for him again?
Even if all of the wonderful things being said about Wiggins are true the Cavs would be foolish to pass up on a developed talent like Kevin Love for a prospect. Kevin Love is a top 5 player while Wiggins is hoping to be a top 5 rookie.
Talking to some Cavs fans and they are under the impression that Wiggins is going to come in and drop 20 a night. They dont realize that his offense hasnt caught up to athletica ability. Watching him in this summer league and is mid range game seems to be on point as well as his defense. His handle has shown to be really weak, which is something most of us on this site already knew. I just wish Cavs fans would cool down and be prepared that he wont be at that level offensively for 3 or 4 more years.
The Pippen comparison isnt bad or good because we dont know since he is sooooo young. Let Wiggins be Wiggins.
I like to compare him to Paul George (best case) and Andre Iguodala (worst case)
I feel as if his impact will be on the defensive end of the ball more so than the offensive. Especially early in his career.
Iggy as a worst case? Iggy in his prime was a very good player. I would think his worst case would be a Tyrus Thomas type guy.
Wiggins is a raw player, but his 3 point shot is probably one of his stronger traits right now.
During Big 12 play, Wiggins shot 37% from the 3 point line, and had 5 games in which he hit three or more 3 pointers. Comparing conference numbers, he shot a higher percentage than Jabari Parker.
Yeah, he's struggled a bit during SL finding his outside shot, but his form is still fine. He just needs reps. I think Wiggins will hit a 35% clip in the NBA far quicker than Scottie Pippen did.
A few thoughts on Wiggins…
About his dribbling; it’s not so much that Wiggins can’t dribble and beat his man off the dribble, he can, it’s that he possesses very poor offensive awareness with the ball in his hand. He can beat his man off the dribble going right and he has a spin move, so he can beat his man off the dibble whenever he wants to. Go right and he’s at the rim or, gets cut off, and he spins back left and he’s at the rim. Or forced left, then he goes left and spins back right and he’s at the rim. Or forced left with no intent to recover, then he goes left and he’s at the rim.
The point is even without a left he’s quick and explosive enough to get by his man at will almost every time. The problem is when he has clear lanes to the rim, he almost always pulls up, watch it, he does this every time. Or he drives right into a help defender and is forced to pull up instead of driving where the lane is. He did this all the time in college too. With the ball in his hands his court awareness is absolutely horrible and it’s something that’s really hard to improve on (it can improve but it’s very rare). Most likely you either have it by this stage or you don’t, it’s like court vision with point guards, becoming a pure point isn’t something you usually do at 19,20,21,22 years old, it’s in you way before that.
This leads me to believe that Wiggins will never be a Pippen (come on guys, Pippen was a point forward, pretty much the exact opposite of Wiggins with the ball), or a Durant, LeBron, or even a Paul George offensively. That’s just not who he is, he’s not that type of player offensively. I see him more of a (and I hate comparisons, I’m not talking about percentages just game in general) Rudy Gay type player on offense while being a Paul George type player or better on defense. That’s an all-star or superstar type player and a player that should have a huge impact on each game. In my opinion because of Wiggins physical gifts, he can be a 20-25 ppg scorer while being non-ball dominant just because his shot looks good and he can score, he’s just not that alpha dog ball dominant scorer. Maybe even a usage rate of around 20% compared to Lebron, Durant, and PG who have around 30%. And the argument could even be made that while playing with ball dominant player(s) that he would be even more valuable being a non-ball dominant player than a ball dominant player.