[AstroParticipant]

What a lot of people seem to be missing with their “inadequate supporting cast” argument is that a team isn’t like a bag of “talent” chips or “youth” chips.

If you want to contend for being the G.O.A.T., you inevitably will be compared with Jordan – not simply for athletic ability, or specific on-court skills, but something else:

1) Leadership. Ask anyone of my generation whether Jordan would have allowed a 4-1 Finals collapse to happen. He would have seen it coming a mile away and would have properly motivated and inspired his teammates to transcend their so-called limitations. He didn’t need to be liked by his teammates, but he needed to be respected and listened to, and like a second head coach, he was going to maximize their potential.

2) Mental toughness. Jordan was able to intimidate opposing players. He won the mental game even before he stepped on the court, and the mental game continued on the court.

So, to return to the supporting cast argument – it is based on a false premise: that a so-called GOAT contender need not influence, motivate and plainly put make his teammates better.

Jordan did it. He raised Scotty Pippen. No-one can say with certainty whether Pippen would have been the same caliber of player without Jordan’s influence. Because there isn’t a stat for that. you can’t look it up and then fashion and argument based on it.

But it is real. And it is a part of pro basketball. Intangibles are important in a way many refuse to see.

[KawagicParticipant]

So, you’re saying the 4-1 finals loss was a "collapse" by Lebron and not a beat down by the Spurs….I stopped reading after that….

[KawagicParticipant]

So, you’re saying the 4-1 finals loss was a "collapse" by Lebron and not a beat down by the Spurs….I stopped reading after that….

[3 No Biases 3Participant]

Yeah, no kidding.  Spurs might’ve been the most impressive teams in recent memory.  I’ve never seen a team dominate like that especially after the heartbreak of last year.  

And yeah, Scottie Pippen was a top 5 athlete, top 5 defender, and a triple double threat all because of MJ. gtfo   

[3 No Biases 3Participant]

Yeah, no kidding.  Spurs might’ve been the most impressive teams in recent memory.  I’ve never seen a team dominate like that especially after the heartbreak of last year.  

And yeah, Scottie Pippen was a top 5 athlete, top 5 defender, and a triple double threat all because of MJ. gtfo   

[GrandmamaParticipant]

Granted it was a Spurs beatdown, but Lebron averaged 4ppg in the 4th quarter….And had a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio.  So it’s not like he played an amazing series.  He had a few quarters where he was on fire, 1st quarter of game 5, 3rd quarter of game 3 when it was already out of reach.  Had an amazing game 2.  I’m not saying it was a collapse by Lebron, just pointing out a few truths.

[GrandmamaParticipant]

Granted it was a Spurs beatdown, but Lebron averaged 4ppg in the 4th quarter….And had a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio.  So it’s not like he played an amazing series.  He had a few quarters where he was on fire, 1st quarter of game 5, 3rd quarter of game 3 when it was already out of reach.  Had an amazing game 2.  I’m not saying it was a collapse by Lebron, just pointing out a few truths.

[SpartanGloryParticipant]

 It was a beat down by the Spurs, and Lebron didn’t collapse. He just didn’t rise to the level of greatness that MJ or other all time greats are capable of. Heck even Allen Iverson would have played that game like his life depended on it and he’s not even a top 10 player. It’s just no big deal for Lebron that he lost. "2 out of 4 ain’t bad"…

[SpartanGloryParticipant]

 It was a beat down by the Spurs, and Lebron didn’t collapse. He just didn’t rise to the level of greatness that MJ or other all time greats are capable of. Heck even Allen Iverson would have played that game like his life depended on it and he’s not even a top 10 player. It’s just no big deal for Lebron that he lost. "2 out of 4 ain’t bad"…

[AstroParticipant]

Disappointing but not unexpected.

You guys don’t understand what it takes to be GOAT.

It’s as if you just TL;DR what I was saying.

LEADERSHIP. MENTAL TOUGHNESS. INTANGIBLES.

Is that better?

[SpartanGloryParticipant]

Just to be clear, I agree with you. Lebron is lacking in all 3 of those attributes.

[SpartanGloryParticipant]

Just to be clear, I agree with you. Lebron is lacking in all 3 of those attributes.

[KawagicParticipant]

Yeah I focused on that word because you’re implying right from the start that it was a collapse by Lebron and not giving credit to the Spurs. While I agree it does take the things mentioned I don’t believe it was a collapse by Lebron at all. The dude played out of his mind, shot over 60% from the field, over 30ppg and was the only reason they didn’t get swept. Can’t blame him for his teamates sucking it up and can’t blame him for the performance that the Spurs gave. It was a clinic out there and the Spurs were simply better. 

[KawagicParticipant]

Yeah I focused on that word because you’re implying right from the start that it was a collapse by Lebron and not giving credit to the Spurs. While I agree it does take the things mentioned I don’t believe it was a collapse by Lebron at all. The dude played out of his mind, shot over 60% from the field, over 30ppg and was the only reason they didn’t get swept. Can’t blame him for his teamates sucking it up and can’t blame him for the performance that the Spurs gave. It was a clinic out there and the Spurs were simply better. 

[Buckets21Participant]

but it’s a dumb argument to make that Jordan would have never let that collapse happen. You create a hypothetical and then speak in certainty. You’re basing that on what? That his team never lost like that in the Finals? You’re right but his supporting cast was never what Lebron’s was this year. And that isn’t because Jordan motivated them, it’s because they were more talented. Wade looked like he was playing in quicksand the entire series. Lebron can’t motivate Wade’s knees. And Bosh should be ashamed of himself for how soft he played. He’s 6’11, often playing Center and he averaged 5.6 rebounds in the playoffs, that’s a joke.

 "Jordan did it. He raised Scotty Pippen. No-one can say with certainty whether Pippen would have been the same caliber of player without Jordan’s influence. Because there isn’t a stat for that. you can’t look it up and then fashion and argument based on it.

But it is real. And it is a part of pro basketball. Intangibles are important in a way many refuse to see."

You can’t measure intangibles but you know that Jordan had great intangibles and Lebron doesn’t. You love Jordan which is fine, most people do, but an objective person would look at what happened in the finals this year and say no 1 player plugged into the Heat roster would have made much of a difference against that Spurs team.

Also because of Pippen Jordan never had to defend the best player on the other team, which makes a huge difference. Look at Paul George in the ECF, when he had to guard Lebron all game he averaged 21 ppg and the one game when he didn’t he scored 37. Lebron does defend the other team’s best offensive perimeter player most of the time, so why not cut him some slack when can only score 31. 

I’m not saying Lebron is better than Jordan or equal, you can’t even really have a legitimate debate until Lebron’s career is closer to an end, but to say he’s not on Jordan’s level because of all of these unquantifiable attributes is lazy in my opinion. I don’t think Lebron played great in the finals. I think he was a little too passive at times on offense and reluctant to go to the basket, but I think part of that can be attributed to the fact that he was tired because of his defensive assignment. You can’t blame Lebron for the Heat’s poor defensive rotations and the Spurs shooting at a historic rate. No intangibles can stop that.

 

 

  

[Buckets21Participant]

but it’s a dumb argument to make that Jordan would have never let that collapse happen. You create a hypothetical and then speak in certainty. You’re basing that on what? That his team never lost like that in the Finals? You’re right but his supporting cast was never what Lebron’s was this year. And that isn’t because Jordan motivated them, it’s because they were more talented. Wade looked like he was playing in quicksand the entire series. Lebron can’t motivate Wade’s knees. And Bosh should be ashamed of himself for how soft he played. He’s 6’11, often playing Center and he averaged 5.6 rebounds in the playoffs, that’s a joke.

 "Jordan did it. He raised Scotty Pippen. No-one can say with certainty whether Pippen would have been the same caliber of player without Jordan’s influence. Because there isn’t a stat for that. you can’t look it up and then fashion and argument based on it.

But it is real. And it is a part of pro basketball. Intangibles are important in a way many refuse to see."

You can’t measure intangibles but you know that Jordan had great intangibles and Lebron doesn’t. You love Jordan which is fine, most people do, but an objective person would look at what happened in the finals this year and say no 1 player plugged into the Heat roster would have made much of a difference against that Spurs team.

Also because of Pippen Jordan never had to defend the best player on the other team, which makes a huge difference. Look at Paul George in the ECF, when he had to guard Lebron all game he averaged 21 ppg and the one game when he didn’t he scored 37. Lebron does defend the other team’s best offensive perimeter player most of the time, so why not cut him some slack when can only score 31. 

I’m not saying Lebron is better than Jordan or equal, you can’t even really have a legitimate debate until Lebron’s career is closer to an end, but to say he’s not on Jordan’s level because of all of these unquantifiable attributes is lazy in my opinion. I don’t think Lebron played great in the finals. I think he was a little too passive at times on offense and reluctant to go to the basket, but I think part of that can be attributed to the fact that he was tired because of his defensive assignment. You can’t blame Lebron for the Heat’s poor defensive rotations and the Spurs shooting at a historic rate. No intangibles can stop that.

 

 

  

[AstroParticipant]

Disappointing but not unexpected.

You guys don’t understand what it takes to be GOAT.

It’s as if you just TL;DR what I was saying.

LEADERSHIP. MENTAL TOUGHNESS. INTANGIBLES.

Is that better?

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

Remember when Nick Anderson picked Jordan’s pockets and ate his lunch in the 1995 playoffs?

Jordan bounced back.  Up until 1995, Jordan had 3 MVP’s, 3 titles, going to 3 NBA Finals.  1995 was Jordan’s 10th season.  He skipped a year.  11 years into his career, did Jordan’s 3 rings put him past Magic or Wilt or Kareem or Bill Russell?

Jordan bounced back and three years later became the undisputed GOAT.

What will LeBron do?

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

Remember when Nick Anderson picked Jordan’s pockets and ate his lunch in the 1995 playoffs?

Jordan bounced back.  Up until 1995, Jordan had 3 MVP’s, 3 titles, going to 3 NBA Finals.  1995 was Jordan’s 10th season.  He skipped a year.  11 years into his career, did Jordan’s 3 rings put him past Magic or Wilt or Kareem or Bill Russell?

Jordan bounced back and three years later became the undisputed GOAT.

What will LeBron do?

[priceless4ev@Participant]

LeBron did his part in this finals.he has grown alot Since the Dallas series. but lets be clear he Is not and We never be Jordan.There Is no need for comparison.Jordan did so much for the league be even to a break from the league.The closes thing to Jordan that We have se en Is Kobe.period 

[priceless4ev@Participant]

LeBron did his part in this finals.he has grown alot Since the Dallas series. but lets be clear he Is not and We never be Jordan.There Is no need for comparison.Jordan did so much for the league be even to a break from the league.The closes thing to Jordan that We have se en Is Kobe.period 

[bloodshyParticipant]

MJ is the GOAT. No one is disputing that. However, I disagree with your key points. I am not claiming you are wrong about LBJ, but that you are misplacing values as they relate to MJ. In short, I think you over-simplify MJ, his strengths/weaknesses, and the realities of differnet eras. 

1. You indicate Leadership = Never allow a 4-1 collapse to happen. This argument is wrong on many levels. As it relates to MJ’s leadership it is off for at least two reasons.

First, it is well documented that MJ did in fact get beat down in the playoffs before his "cast" developed. Even as he was able to average 50 ppg against the Cs, he got swept. MJ lost twice to the Bad Boys of Detroit when he was widely considered the greatest player on the planet. Even MJ admits his own collapse during those series. It wasn’t until Scottie became a bonafide superstar in his own right that MJ made it to his first finals. It is clear MJ needed a second elite talent to get there. Additionally, it should be noted that MJ, even with a second elite, was able to get to the finals and win the finals only when it was clear that all of the former powers of the NBA (Cs, Lakers, Detroit) were all on a sharp decline, shadows of their former glory. MJ never beat the Cs, Lakers or Pistons at their best. He beat them when they were past their prime. That is how it usually happens and that is how it happened for MJ. This is a team sport and always has been. MJ was the best player, but the Bulls were also the best team when they finally won it all. It took a team – it always does.

MJ did beat the Blazers at their peak with the same supporting cast. However, to say he wasn’t playing with a stacked deck for his last three titles is just lying to yourself. He was the greatest player on the greatest team ever assembled. If they had lost it would have been the biggest upset in history and it still took that team to the final seconds of game 6 to beat the Suns/Jazz(x2) for his final three trophies. A season-ending injury to Rodman or Pippen (elite defenders on Malone/Stockton) would almost certainly have ended MJ’s finals’ perfection. MJ is the GOAT, but this is still a team sport and it took the whole team for MJ to win.

Second, it is true that MJ was a great leader in many respects. His endless fire, ambition and work ethic required a higher standard of those around him. He demanded perfection of other players. However, he had deficiencies as well. Once he punched Kerr in the face over a minor disagreement at practice, for example. That got hushed up because MJ’s day didn’t include social media or today’s scrutiny. Consider the role Stephenson’s antics played for the Pacer’s this year. In today’s world, imagine the "leadership" critiques MJ would have received for flattening a teamate.

2. Mental Toughness. Yes, MJ was rock solid. No one is doubting that. No one was bigger at the biggest moments. However, we have no idea how MJ’s iron clad mental toughness would have held up under today’s scrutiny. How would MJ have handled the requirement of a media apology for punching his teamate, for example? Would we have begun to see cracks in his mental foundation if the world stopped adoring him as they criticized him for his temper? In today’s world he would have had far more focus on his gambling addiction as well. This is why judging from one generation to the next is difficult. Every generation deals with its own demons. Consider the mental collapse of Tiger Woods after his sexual exploits became well known and the world started to hate him. He went from the most dominant athlete in the history of his sport to a common pro. I’m not saying this would have happened with MJ. I’m saying we don’t know. MJ is from a different era and never dealt with the pressure of this era.

To be clear, I agree. MJ is the GOAT. LBJ is not. MJ has several qualities that LBJ does not have. I just think your post seriously oversimplifies what those are.

 

 

 

   

[HazelParticipant]

I get a little tired of people equating leadership to the win-at-all costs drive that Jordon and Kobe have. I get that such a drive is a large reason for their greatness, but it can hurt more than it helps with the wrong people. What people forget is that the bulls had a group of guys who had the same sort of drive (Rodman) or were actually great leaders as human beings though not nearly as talented (Kerr, Cartwright, Paxton, Hodges, etc) They dealt with the downside of such an attitude in a way that they could use it to spur the team to greatness. (Fisher did the same in LA with Kobe).

Duncan, on the other hand, leads in a way that people become more confident basketball players when they play with him. That is what I would call leadership. Truth be told, I see more leadership in Lebron than Michael. I understand there was more Fire, and mental toughness in MJ but not more leadership. This may sound corny, but one way I use to evaluate leadership from a distance is family. How does their family feel about them? Fisher, Duncan (did you see those kids after the game?), Kerr, Doc Rivers, John Stockton, all great leaders in life and on the court. What made Jordon great is now all gone from age, or is somewhat crippling in life for him now. If he were a great leader as a player he would still be a great leader as a team president.

[HazelParticipant]

I get a little tired of people equating leadership to the win-at-all costs drive that Jordon and Kobe have. I get that such a drive is a large reason for their greatness, but it can hurt more than it helps with the wrong people. What people forget is that the bulls had a group of guys who had the same sort of drive (Rodman) or were actually great leaders as human beings though not nearly as talented (Kerr, Cartwright, Paxton, Hodges, etc) They dealt with the downside of such an attitude in a way that they could use it to spur the team to greatness. (Fisher did the same in LA with Kobe).

Duncan, on the other hand, leads in a way that people become more confident basketball players when they play with him. That is what I would call leadership. Truth be told, I see more leadership in Lebron than Michael. I understand there was more Fire, and mental toughness in MJ but not more leadership. This may sound corny, but one way I use to evaluate leadership from a distance is family. How does their family feel about them? Fisher, Duncan (did you see those kids after the game?), Kerr, Doc Rivers, John Stockton, all great leaders in life and on the court. What made Jordon great is now all gone from age, or is somewhat crippling in life for him now. If he were a great leader as a player he would still be a great leader as a team president.

[bloodshyParticipant]

MJ is the GOAT. No one is disputing that. However, I disagree with your key points. I am not claiming you are wrong about LBJ, but that you are misplacing values as they relate to MJ. In short, I think you over-simplify MJ, his strengths/weaknesses, and the realities of differnet eras. 

1. You indicate Leadership = Never allow a 4-1 collapse to happen. This argument is wrong on many levels. As it relates to MJ’s leadership it is off for at least two reasons.

First, it is well documented that MJ did in fact get beat down in the playoffs before his "cast" developed. Even as he was able to average 50 ppg against the Cs, he got swept. MJ lost twice to the Bad Boys of Detroit when he was widely considered the greatest player on the planet. Even MJ admits his own collapse during those series. It wasn’t until Scottie became a bonafide superstar in his own right that MJ made it to his first finals. It is clear MJ needed a second elite talent to get there. Additionally, it should be noted that MJ, even with a second elite, was able to get to the finals and win the finals only when it was clear that all of the former powers of the NBA (Cs, Lakers, Detroit) were all on a sharp decline, shadows of their former glory. MJ never beat the Cs, Lakers or Pistons at their best. He beat them when they were past their prime. That is how it usually happens and that is how it happened for MJ. This is a team sport and always has been. MJ was the best player, but the Bulls were also the best team when they finally won it all. It took a team – it always does.

MJ did beat the Blazers at their peak with the same supporting cast. However, to say he wasn’t playing with a stacked deck for his last three titles is just lying to yourself. He was the greatest player on the greatest team ever assembled. If they had lost it would have been the biggest upset in history and it still took that team to the final seconds of game 6 to beat the Suns/Jazz(x2) for his final three trophies. A season-ending injury to Rodman or Pippen (elite defenders on Malone/Stockton) would almost certainly have ended MJ’s finals’ perfection. MJ is the GOAT, but this is still a team sport and it took the whole team for MJ to win.

Second, it is true that MJ was a great leader in many respects. His endless fire, ambition and work ethic required a higher standard of those around him. He demanded perfection of other players. However, he had deficiencies as well. Once he punched Kerr in the face over a minor disagreement at practice, for example. That got hushed up because MJ’s day didn’t include social media or today’s scrutiny. Consider the role Stephenson’s antics played for the Pacer’s this year. In today’s world, imagine the "leadership" critiques MJ would have received for flattening a teamate.

2. Mental Toughness. Yes, MJ was rock solid. No one is doubting that. No one was bigger at the biggest moments. However, we have no idea how MJ’s iron clad mental toughness would have held up under today’s scrutiny. How would MJ have handled the requirement of a media apology for punching his teamate, for example? Would we have begun to see cracks in his mental foundation if the world stopped adoring him as they criticized him for his temper? In today’s world he would have had far more focus on his gambling addiction as well. This is why judging from one generation to the next is difficult. Every generation deals with its own demons. Consider the mental collapse of Tiger Woods after his sexual exploits became well known and the world started to hate him. He went from the most dominant athlete in the history of his sport to a common pro. I’m not saying this would have happened with MJ. I’m saying we don’t know. MJ is from a different era and never dealt with the pressure of this era.

To be clear, I agree. MJ is the GOAT. LBJ is not. MJ has several qualities that LBJ does not have. I just think your post seriously oversimplifies what those are.

 

 

 

   

[tidhoParticipant]

I think the OP’s core point is correct but the way it was supported allowed folks to kill the messenger on it.

LeBron has not shown the mental toughness nor the (likel unhealthy) will to win that MJ had.  Its tough to even try to discuss this intelligently without being crucified so I  won’t bother going into detail.

[tidhoParticipant]

I think the OP’s core point is correct but the way it was supported allowed folks to kill the messenger on it.

LeBron has not shown the mental toughness nor the (likel unhealthy) will to win that MJ had.  Its tough to even try to discuss this intelligently without being crucified so I  won’t bother going into detail.

[druneave3Participant]

 Jordan = GOAT but…. The average championship team has 3.5 HOF’s on it. The spurs played an almost perfect series and the most efficient one of all time almost. LeBron or anyone can not win alone, especially after what the Spurs went through last year. 

[druneave3Participant]

 Jordan = GOAT but…. The average championship team has 3.5 HOF’s on it. The spurs played an almost perfect series and the most efficient one of all time almost. LeBron or anyone can not win alone, especially after what the Spurs went through last year. 

[priceless4ev@Participant]

 Jordan honestly shoudnt be involved .

Grant Hill was LeBron before LeBron and We dont even discuss him.and LeBron.

LeBron Is Great but tbh honesty Bosh,wade,alllen,beasly none stepped up and better coaching as well.

Bron Bron Is more than  just a Great athlete but no person period Is the Same…..nba Or not

Analyze that 

[priceless4ev@Participant]

 Jordan honestly shoudnt be involved .

Grant Hill was LeBron before LeBron and We dont even discuss him.and LeBron.

LeBron Is Great but tbh honesty Bosh,wade,alllen,beasly none stepped up and better coaching as well.

Bron Bron Is more than  just a Great athlete but no person period Is the Same…..nba Or not

Analyze that 

[drice4life1753Participant]

 "Grant Hill was LeBron before LeBron…" o wow! That makes me want smash my computer reading.  To each their own, but that is an awful awful comparison/statement.

[drice4life1753Participant]

 "Grant Hill was LeBron before LeBron…" o wow! That makes me want smash my computer reading.  To each their own, but that is an awful awful comparison/statement.

[drice4life1753Participant]

 The closest thing we may ever see to Jordan is Kobe Bryant.  But Kobe is no where near the player LeBron is now or in their primes.  That is just my opinion (which is probably split 50-50) and personally I think that is a much more fun debate than LeBron vs. Jordan.  I love Kobe Bryant, just putting in perspective the Jordan vs. LeBron debate.  You do not have to be Jordan or have a style of play (which LeBron far from does) like him to surpass or equal him.  But the only player who should be compared to him on actual player attributes is Kobe, besides that we are really just talking rings when it comes to LeBron.

Random facts everyone knows but I feel obligated to state.  People NEED to realize MJ played w/ Pippen & Rodman.  Yes, MJ is GOAT hands down, no contest, just stfu about it.  But if we are comparing supporting cast and future HOF’s…then MJ easily had the better supoorting cast of 2 HOF’s in Pippen & Rodman > Wade & Bosh.  I’m not trying to take away from MJ (never dream of it), just trying to point out that the "supporting cast" BS should be thrown out the window and completely ignored when discussed about LeBron.

 

[drice4life1753Participant]

 The closest thing we may ever see to Jordan is Kobe Bryant.  But Kobe is no where near the player LeBron is now or in their primes.  That is just my opinion (which is probably split 50-50) and personally I think that is a much more fun debate than LeBron vs. Jordan.  I love Kobe Bryant, just putting in perspective the Jordan vs. LeBron debate.  You do not have to be Jordan or have a style of play (which LeBron far from does) like him to surpass or equal him.  But the only player who should be compared to him on actual player attributes is Kobe, besides that we are really just talking rings when it comes to LeBron.

Random facts everyone knows but I feel obligated to state.  People NEED to realize MJ played w/ Pippen & Rodman.  Yes, MJ is GOAT hands down, no contest, just stfu about it.  But if we are comparing supporting cast and future HOF’s…then MJ easily had the better supoorting cast of 2 HOF’s in Pippen & Rodman > Wade & Bosh.  I’m not trying to take away from MJ (never dream of it), just trying to point out that the "supporting cast" BS should be thrown out the window and completely ignored when discussed about LeBron.

 

[Author]

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