[bloodshyParticipant]

I just read an interesting article from a Jazz website. Apparently, a sportsnation poll on espn was done rating all-time greats and Scottie Pippen came in rated ahead of Karl Malone. Seeing this, a Jazz fan did some research and went on a short rant. His conclusion is that market size and lack of rings has caused Malone to be very underrated and that Pippen’s connection to MJ and the 90s Bulls has inflated his stock. Stats comparison:

Career:

Pippen: 16.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2 spg, .8 bpg, 2.8 tov, .473 fg%, .326 3pt%, .704 ft%, PER 18.6

Malone: 25.0 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.4 spg, .8 bpg, 3.1 tov, .516 fg%, .274 3pt%, .742 ft%, PER 23.9

Best Season: 

Pippen: 22.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.9 spg, .8 bpg, 3.2 tov, .491 fg%, .320 3pt%, .660 ft%, PER 23.2

Malone: 31.0 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 1.5 spg, .6 bpg, 3.7 tov, .562 fg%, .372 3pt%, .762 ft%, PER 27.2

Career Achievments:

Pippen: 6 rings, Finished 3rd in MVP Voting Once, 3x All-NBA 1st Team, 2x All-NBA 2nd Team, 1 Allstar MVP, 7-time Allstar, 10 All-NBA Defensive Teams (1st team 7 times), 2x Olympic Gold Medalist, 20 career triple doubles

Malone: 2x NBA MVP, 11x All-NBA 1st Team, 2x All-NBA 2nd Team, 2x Allstar MVP, 14-time Allstar, 4 All-NBA Defensive Teams (1st team 3 times), 2x Olympic Gold Medalist, 2nd All-time scoring, 6th All-time Rebounding, 1st All-time fts made, 17 seasons averaging at least 20 ppg, Iorn Man (Missed 2 or fewer games in 18 straight seasons)

Disclosure: I am a Jazz fan and Karl Malone is the guy that made me a fan of the NBA. I watched the Jazz lose to Drexler’s Blazers during a tough 90’s playoff series as a kid and I’ve been following the Jazz ever since. Please chime in with your opinions.

Link: http://www.slcdunk.com/research-statistics-analytics/2014/1/21/5330228/espn-chicago-bulls-scottie-pippen-karl-malone-utah-jazz-40-at-40-continues-to-be-under-rated/in/5089679

[BasketballJunkie224Participant]

i think that malone had the overall better career..pippens championships might give him the edge in some peoples eyes but when i consider everything that goes into the player/career, i would have to go with with Karl Malone..ps not that this is what its all about but malone did win an mvp

[BasketballJunkie224Participant]

i think that malone had the overall better career..pippens championships might give him the edge in some peoples eyes but when i consider everything that goes into the player/career, i would have to go with with Karl Malone..ps not that this is what its all about but malone did win an mvp

[Moon RiverParticipant]

Stats are certainly a big part of it and it looks as though the Mailman would have the upper hand in that category.  I just think the Jordian factor is  the biggest issue in this debate. For instance, put Pippen on the Jazz and Malone on the Bulls during this era.  Do you think MJ is still sitting with 6 rings playing along with Malone?  I certainly do.

There are a lot of factors that can go into this debate (and it is a good one) but have to agree with Junkie on this one in that the championships play a large factor on a players perception of being better than others and #23 had a little something to do with Pippen’s reputation as a player compared to Malone.

[Moon RiverParticipant]

Stats are certainly a big part of it and it looks as though the Mailman would have the upper hand in that category.  I just think the Jordian factor is  the biggest issue in this debate. For instance, put Pippen on the Jazz and Malone on the Bulls during this era.  Do you think MJ is still sitting with 6 rings playing along with Malone?  I certainly do.

There are a lot of factors that can go into this debate (and it is a good one) but have to agree with Junkie on this one in that the championships play a large factor on a players perception of being better than others and #23 had a little something to do with Pippen’s reputation as a player compared to Malone.

[Mr. ChicagoParticipant]

But you have to give to Malone.

Malone was a beast at the Power Forward position, and really revolutionized the pick & roll game (along with Stockton of course). He was one of the toughest covers in basketball for a long time.

[Mr. ChicagoParticipant]

But you have to give to Malone.

Malone was a beast at the Power Forward position, and really revolutionized the pick & roll game (along with Stockton of course). He was one of the toughest covers in basketball for a long time.

[Captain LParticipant]

I don’t even think it is close, Pippen is a good player but he couldn’t carry a team like Malone did, IMO Malone is the best PF ever, I know a lot of people think Duncan is but I see Duncan as a Center not a PF, even as a PF Duncan doesn’t measure up statistically, championships is what pushes Duncan to the top what ever position you put him at. Barkley wants to say he’s the #1 PF but he can’t measure up either to Karl statistically. Without MJ , Pippen wouldn’t have won the championships and then this comparison wouldn’t even be possible. Championships are important but they don’t determine how good you are as a player individually, if they did, players like Steve Kerr or Robert Horry would be some of the best.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Don’t get me wrong I would rate Malone higher than Pippen on my all-time list too (I think the last time I came up with a list Malone was at #14 or #15 and Pippen was in the early late 20s, early 30s). But your logic is really flawed:

————————————————————————–
I don’t even think it is close, Pippen is a good player but he couldn’t carry a team like Malone did,
————————————————————————–

Except he did carry a team. In 1994 he led a MJ less Bulls team to a 55-27 record by scoring 22 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG and 2.9 SPG

—————————————————————————–
even as a PF Duncan doesn’t measure up statistically, championships is what pushes Duncan to the top
—————————————————————————–

Duncan has also been a dominant defender while Malone was just good on D. Duncan actually holds the edge in several statistics including rebounding, blocks and career PER

———————————————————————
Barkley wants to say he’s the #1 PF but he can’t measure up either to Karl statistically.
——————————————————————–

Actually he can. Barkley has the edge on Malone in every career statistic (RPG, APG, SPG, PER) except PPG but holds a big lead in FG% (541 to 516) and TS% (612 to 577) which offsets the PPG difference of 3.3. Even in single season career bests Barkley has the edge in RPG, APG, SPG, FG%, TS% and pretty much identical PER marks with Malone. Once again Malone only has the edge in PPG and keep in mind Malone played almost his entire career with arguably the greatest passer of all time while Barkley got to play the equivalent of about 3 years (4 injury plagued seasons) with Kevin Johnson and a few good years with Maurice Cheeks at the beginning of his career.

[bloodshyParticipant]

Statistically, Barkley and Malone were really close in terms of career averages. Solid arguments can be made for each side. Malone did play 3 years longer (19 vs. 16) and hundreds of more games because he never seemed to miss games for injury. Statistically, I’d give a slight edge to Malone, recognizing intelligent people could disagree with my position. However, having spent my youth watching these guys go head to head (they played each other 49 total times, including playoffs), I would take Malone. 

Barkley was amazing and is one of my all-time favorites. He was a 6’6 monster that would bully 7-footers regularly. However, when he played Malone he got bullied more often than not. It was rare that Barkley got the better of Malone, especially after their first five years in the league. Stats indicate both players were below their averages when playing each other, but Malone definitely got the best of Barkley.

Regular Season Averages VS (39 games):

Barkley: 18.4 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.4 spg, .5 bpg, .468 fg%, .241 3pt%, .782 ft%, 3.2 tov

Malone: 23.7 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.3 spg, .8 bpg, .516 fg%, .250 3pt%, .751 ft%, 3.0 tov

Playoffs VS (10 games): 

Barkley: 13.3 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 2.7 apg, 1.0 spg, .3 bpg, .453 fg%, .231 3pt%, .732 ft%, 2.3 tov

Malone: 24.3 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.3 bpg, .444 fg%, .500 3pt%, .769 ft%

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bloodshyParticipant]

Statistically, Barkley and Malone were really close in terms of career averages. Solid arguments can be made for each side. Malone did play 3 years longer (19 vs. 16) and hundreds of more games because he never seemed to miss games for injury. Statistically, I’d give a slight edge to Malone, recognizing intelligent people could disagree with my position. However, having spent my youth watching these guys go head to head (they played each other 49 total times, including playoffs), I would take Malone. 

Barkley was amazing and is one of my all-time favorites. He was a 6’6 monster that would bully 7-footers regularly. However, when he played Malone he got bullied more often than not. It was rare that Barkley got the better of Malone, especially after their first five years in the league. Stats indicate both players were below their averages when playing each other, but Malone definitely got the best of Barkley.

Regular Season Averages VS (39 games):

Barkley: 18.4 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.4 spg, .5 bpg, .468 fg%, .241 3pt%, .782 ft%, 3.2 tov

Malone: 23.7 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.3 spg, .8 bpg, .516 fg%, .250 3pt%, .751 ft%, 3.0 tov

Playoffs VS (10 games): 

Barkley: 13.3 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 2.7 apg, 1.0 spg, .3 bpg, .453 fg%, .231 3pt%, .732 ft%, 2.3 tov

Malone: 24.3 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 2.2 apg, 1.4 spg, 1.3 bpg, .444 fg%, .500 3pt%, .769 ft%

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

For sure. Malone always did seem to get the best of Barkley. In addition to their 1 on 1 matchups I certainly would say Malone was the better defender and more reliable in terms of fitness/health. On the whole I do agree with placing Malone higher on my all-time list than Barkley I just thought it was a bit weird of the other poster to suggest that Barkley doesn’t measure up statistically to Malone.

Those numbers are real interesting, I didn’t realize that Barkley’s playoff performances against Karl were that bad.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

For sure. Malone always did seem to get the best of Barkley. In addition to their 1 on 1 matchups I certainly would say Malone was the better defender and more reliable in terms of fitness/health. On the whole I do agree with placing Malone higher on my all-time list than Barkley I just thought it was a bit weird of the other poster to suggest that Barkley doesn’t measure up statistically to Malone.

Those numbers are real interesting, I didn’t realize that Barkley’s playoff performances against Karl were that bad.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Don’t get me wrong I would rate Malone higher than Pippen on my all-time list too (I think the last time I came up with a list Malone was at #14 or #15 and Pippen was in the early late 20s, early 30s). But your logic is really flawed:

————————————————————————–
I don’t even think it is close, Pippen is a good player but he couldn’t carry a team like Malone did,
————————————————————————–

Except he did carry a team. In 1994 he led a MJ less Bulls team to a 55-27 record by scoring 22 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 5.6 APG and 2.9 SPG

—————————————————————————–
even as a PF Duncan doesn’t measure up statistically, championships is what pushes Duncan to the top
—————————————————————————–

Duncan has also been a dominant defender while Malone was just good on D. Duncan actually holds the edge in several statistics including rebounding, blocks and career PER

———————————————————————
Barkley wants to say he’s the #1 PF but he can’t measure up either to Karl statistically.
——————————————————————–

Actually he can. Barkley has the edge on Malone in every career statistic (RPG, APG, SPG, PER) except PPG but holds a big lead in FG% (541 to 516) and TS% (612 to 577) which offsets the PPG difference of 3.3. Even in single season career bests Barkley has the edge in RPG, APG, SPG, FG%, TS% and pretty much identical PER marks with Malone. Once again Malone only has the edge in PPG and keep in mind Malone played almost his entire career with arguably the greatest passer of all time while Barkley got to play the equivalent of about 3 years (4 injury plagued seasons) with Kevin Johnson and a few good years with Maurice Cheeks at the beginning of his career.

[surveParticipant]

"Without MJ , Pippen wouldn’t have won the championships and then this comparison wouldn’t even be possible."

so you gonna take away MJ from Pippen but Malone gets to keep a GOAT PG?  

for all the success Pippen had with the 6 rings…take away MJ and I believe he still wouldve gotten a chip or two based on how deep they went when MJ retired.  it doesnt happen in one year…ask Lebron.  you have to put the necessary pieces in place.  thing is, they always anticipated MJ coming back so they didnt change their personnel drastically.

say MJ had a career ending injury.  the Bulls management may take a totally different approach to restructuring a team that was already in contender mode.

you take away Stockton however…and Malone may never get to the Finals in the West and possibly gets moved eventually.  Stockton was every bit as important to Malone’s success as MJ was to Pippen.  The thing that stands out to me though is Pippen in different periods of his career had moderate success even without Michael.  The guy is underrated because he wasnt an alpha dog scorer.

 

 

 

 

[surveParticipant]

"Without MJ , Pippen wouldn’t have won the championships and then this comparison wouldn’t even be possible."

so you gonna take away MJ from Pippen but Malone gets to keep a GOAT PG?  

for all the success Pippen had with the 6 rings…take away MJ and I believe he still wouldve gotten a chip or two based on how deep they went when MJ retired.  it doesnt happen in one year…ask Lebron.  you have to put the necessary pieces in place.  thing is, they always anticipated MJ coming back so they didnt change their personnel drastically.

say MJ had a career ending injury.  the Bulls management may take a totally different approach to restructuring a team that was already in contender mode.

you take away Stockton however…and Malone may never get to the Finals in the West and possibly gets moved eventually.  Stockton was every bit as important to Malone’s success as MJ was to Pippen.  The thing that stands out to me though is Pippen in different periods of his career had moderate success even without Michael.  The guy is underrated because he wasnt an alpha dog scorer.

 

 

 

 

[Captain LParticipant]

I don’t even think it is close, Pippen is a good player but he couldn’t carry a team like Malone did, IMO Malone is the best PF ever, I know a lot of people think Duncan is but I see Duncan as a Center not a PF, even as a PF Duncan doesn’t measure up statistically, championships is what pushes Duncan to the top what ever position you put him at. Barkley wants to say he’s the #1 PF but he can’t measure up either to Karl statistically. Without MJ , Pippen wouldn’t have won the championships and then this comparison wouldn’t even be possible. Championships are important but they don’t determine how good you are as a player individually, if they did, players like Steve Kerr or Robert Horry would be some of the best.

[llperez]

Malone. And I dint think it’s that close. People forget Malone was well rounded beyond just scoring. He defended and passed very well and was a very high iq player.

[llperez]

Malone. And I dint think it’s that close. People forget Malone was well rounded beyond just scoring. He defended and passed very well and was a very high iq player.

[jmarg25Participant]

 Malone is better. Pippen was more of a second fiddle guy while Malone won the MVP twice.

[jmarg25Participant]

 Malone is better. Pippen was more of a second fiddle guy while Malone won the MVP twice.

[bullsdynasty92Participant]

 You have to give the edge to Karl Malone. Rings, unfortunately, will always be something fans and writers will use to say this player is better than this player. But lets not say that Pippen was some chump. Pippen almost led the Bulls without Michael Jordan, to the Eastern Conference finals in 1994. Remember, this was also without Dennis Rodman too. What if Pippen that year led the Bulls by himself, to the championship only to be beaten by the Rockets? Would we be saying that Malone is still better than Pippen? Malone happened to play with John Stockton throughout his whole career with the Jazz.

[bullsdynasty92Participant]

 You have to give the edge to Karl Malone. Rings, unfortunately, will always be something fans and writers will use to say this player is better than this player. But lets not say that Pippen was some chump. Pippen almost led the Bulls without Michael Jordan, to the Eastern Conference finals in 1994. Remember, this was also without Dennis Rodman too. What if Pippen that year led the Bulls by himself, to the championship only to be beaten by the Rockets? Would we be saying that Malone is still better than Pippen? Malone happened to play with John Stockton throughout his whole career with the Jazz.

[BillkParticipant]

 I am new in this forum, i am visiting nbadraft.net almost 3 or 4 times a day for the last 6 or 7 years! I am a passionate basketball fan i really adore NBA! I am from Greece, i am following nba for the last 20 years! My favorite nba team is Philadelphia 76ers! but i also loved the Jordan Pippen Bulls! In my opinion Scottie Pippen was a better all around player with almost no defficiencies! He is one of the premies nba defenders ever existed! He could guard all the positions in any game. I also believe that the greatest Utah Jazz player was Stockton not Malone he was the brain of Utah Jazz! In my opinion (i am apologising to mr Malone) the best nba power forwards of the modern era are in this order Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Kevin Mchale, Charles Barkley and then Karl Malone! I am a constant reader of Charley Rosen articles and he has claimed that Karl Malone was not a clutch player and was not a winner, Sorry for my English!

[BillkParticipant]

 I am new in this forum, i am visiting nbadraft.net almost 3 or 4 times a day for the last 6 or 7 years! I am a passionate basketball fan i really adore NBA! I am from Greece, i am following nba for the last 20 years! My favorite nba team is Philadelphia 76ers! but i also loved the Jordan Pippen Bulls! In my opinion Scottie Pippen was a better all around player with almost no defficiencies! He is one of the premies nba defenders ever existed! He could guard all the positions in any game. I also believe that the greatest Utah Jazz player was Stockton not Malone he was the brain of Utah Jazz! In my opinion (i am apologising to mr Malone) the best nba power forwards of the modern era are in this order Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Garnett, Kevin Mchale, Charles Barkley and then Karl Malone! I am a constant reader of Charley Rosen articles and he has claimed that Karl Malone was not a clutch player and was not a winner, Sorry for my English!

[SupParticipant]

Pip! Rings! Bulls! Need I say more…?

[BajeebzParticipant]

[BajeebzParticipant]

[SupParticipant]

Pip! Rings! Bulls! Need I say more…?

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

I don’t know if they are that far off.  I would not put the Mailman in the top 10 of all time, nor Pippen.  BUT I think they are both in the 15-25 range. 

The only wings I would have ahead of Pippen would be Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Kobe, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, and Havlicek. 

Big men ahead of Karl Malone are Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, and maybe Moses Malone (a few MVP’s and a Finals MVP award).  Maybe even the old timers like George Mikan (the league’s first superstar) and Bob Petit.  Kevin Garnett is up there, as is Charles Barkley, but I would put Karl Malone ahead of both. 

Thing is, Karl Malone was the perfect fit next to John Stockton.  Scottie Pippen was the perfect fit next to Michael Jordan. 

I would put both guys in the second tier of all time greats (the first tier is the top ten off all time, the Mt. Rushmore of Basketball).

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

I don’t know if they are that far off.  I would not put the Mailman in the top 10 of all time, nor Pippen.  BUT I think they are both in the 15-25 range. 

The only wings I would have ahead of Pippen would be Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Kobe, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, and Havlicek. 

Big men ahead of Karl Malone are Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, and maybe Moses Malone (a few MVP’s and a Finals MVP award).  Maybe even the old timers like George Mikan (the league’s first superstar) and Bob Petit.  Kevin Garnett is up there, as is Charles Barkley, but I would put Karl Malone ahead of both. 

Thing is, Karl Malone was the perfect fit next to John Stockton.  Scottie Pippen was the perfect fit next to Michael Jordan. 

I would put both guys in the second tier of all time greats (the first tier is the top ten off all time, the Mt. Rushmore of Basketball).

[goldie92689Participant]

 There is no statistical measurement for completing taking the other teams best perimeter player out!! That insluded Gary Payton and other premier point guards of the era. It is the most impactful part of Pips game, not to mention the direct corelation to MJs evolved offense has a lot to do with precticing vs Pip defense. I take Pippen

[goldie92689Participant]

 There is no statistical measurement for completing taking the other teams best perimeter player out!! That insluded Gary Payton and other premier point guards of the era. It is the most impactful part of Pips game, not to mention the direct corelation to MJs evolved offense has a lot to do with precticing vs Pip defense. I take Pippen

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

If Pippen didn’t play with Jordan, this wouldn’t even be a question.

Malone all day.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

If Pippen didn’t play with Jordan, this wouldn’t even be a question.

Malone all day.

[surveParticipant]

 I am really surprised at you bro.  You are unquestionably one of the best researchers and basketball minds on this board.  I enjoy your posts and your analytical breakdowns are normally spot on.  I hope this has nothing to do with your screename and you are simply tossing all objectivity out the window with that brief analysis.  ???

keep in mind, MJ never won anything without Scottie.  he never even had a winning season.  also, Scottie carried the Bulls as far as he could when MJ retired.  Also, the Bulls struggled to stay at .500 the year Scottie missed all those games in the beginning.  Mike benefitted from playing with Scottie just as much as the other way around as evidenced by his refusal to play on a Bulls team without him.  if they were to propose a trade for Scottie-Karl when MJ returned, I’ll bet he would be against it 100%.

if you want to say Karl is better by a mile, I wont argue with you.  but give us some breakdown as we have been accustomed to hearing from you.  you have spoiled me with it, so I dont expect anything less when it comes to you.

 

 

[surveParticipant]

 I am really surprised at you bro.  You are unquestionably one of the best researchers and basketball minds on this board.  I enjoy your posts and your analytical breakdowns are normally spot on.  I hope this has nothing to do with your screename and you are simply tossing all objectivity out the window with that brief analysis.  ???

keep in mind, MJ never won anything without Scottie.  he never even had a winning season.  also, Scottie carried the Bulls as far as he could when MJ retired.  Also, the Bulls struggled to stay at .500 the year Scottie missed all those games in the beginning.  Mike benefitted from playing with Scottie just as much as the other way around as evidenced by his refusal to play on a Bulls team without him.  if they were to propose a trade for Scottie-Karl when MJ returned, I’ll bet he would be against it 100%.

if you want to say Karl is better by a mile, I wont argue with you.  but give us some breakdown as we have been accustomed to hearing from you.  you have spoiled me with it, so I dont expect anything less when it comes to you.

 

 

[TRC1991Participant]

 Karl Malone. Best offensive power forward of all time 

[TRC1991Participant]

 Karl Malone. Best offensive power forward of all time 

[jtthebrickParticipant]

The number of championships shouldn’t even be considered for the most part when judging individual players. Pippen was always the second best player on his team, and considering the Jordan factor, always had WAY better players around him than Malone did.

If you put Malone on Jordan’s Bulls, they still win multiple championships.  If you put Pippen on Stockton’s Jazz, they still have zero.  It’s obvious. I don’t even think that’s debatable.

If you factor team success into a discussion about an individual, you’re just being narrow-minded and short-sighted.  And as long as we’re talking about TEAMS, those 97 and 98 Jazz teams were better than a lot of championship teams anyway.  They gave Jordan’s Bulls as good as they got short of some one-sided officiating.

 

 

 

 

[jtthebrickParticipant]

The number of championships shouldn’t even be considered for the most part when judging individual players. Pippen was always the second best player on his team, and considering the Jordan factor, always had WAY better players around him than Malone did.

If you put Malone on Jordan’s Bulls, they still win multiple championships.  If you put Pippen on Stockton’s Jazz, they still have zero.  It’s obvious. I don’t even think that’s debatable.

If you factor team success into a discussion about an individual, you’re just being narrow-minded and short-sighted.  And as long as we’re talking about TEAMS, those 97 and 98 Jazz teams were better than a lot of championship teams anyway.  They gave Jordan’s Bulls as good as they got short of some one-sided officiating.

 

 

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

If you put Malone on Jordan’s Bulls, they still win multiple championships. If you put Pippen on Stockton’s Jazz, they still have zero. It’s obvious. I don’t even think that’s debatable.
——————————————————————————-

That argument cuts both ways though. If you put Malone on Jordan’s Bulls does he average 25+ PPG year in and year out? Hell no. His PPG (which is really the major thing along with his durability/longevity that makes him stand out among the great PFs of history) would probably go down a fair bit.

If you put Pippen on the Jazz with Stockton I would expect him to have routinely put up 22 PPG, 7 RPG, 6 APG, 2.5 SPG seasons throughout the 90s and would probably still go down as one of the greatest All-around players of all time. So we might still be having this debate.

[surveParticipant]

I agree with your assessments.  This goes beyond stats.  While I do not have time to truly go in depth about it….I choose Pippen.  Its easy to dismiss Pippen by saying if he hadnt played with Jordan.  I always ask what if Jordan didnt play with Pippen?  You cant just swap Pippen and Malone and say the Bulls get 6 championships.  It doesnt work like that.

one reason is, Pippen took a lot of the pressure of defending off of Jordan by guarding some of the league’s best offensive players.   that is not saying Pippen was the greatest defender of all time or better than Jordan on defense…what I am saying is…because Michael was the focal point of the offense and Pippen wasnt it was better to place Scottie on some guys as opposed to Jordan.  one, to conserve energy, and two to conserve fouls.

Malone obviously couldnt help in these areas as he was a PF….so he aint gonna be guarding Magic or Clyde.  

Secondly, the way the Bulls offense was set up, they didnt prefer the traditional PGs, hence the reason they traded away BJ after he was an All-Star.  they preferred big defensive minded guards who didnt need the ball in their hands a lot because they chose to run the offense through MJ and Pip.  For this reason, Pip handled the ball a lot.  Something else that would be impossible for Karl to do as he was a PF.

When you swap the players, you may gain points with Karl and rebounds, but the Bulls didnt need any more points and they always managed to have good rebounding….whether you had moderate rebounding from the frontcourt balanced out by above average rebounding from their wings or you had Dennis Rodman.

Again, I say its not that simple.  When you switch players, you have to restructure that entire offense and defense to make it work.  The Bulls never needed a Malone.  They did fine with complimentary role guys like Grant and Kukoc because they were non threatening to Jordan and Pippen.  Everyone fit like a perfect puzzle, even when they moved some players out and brought others in.

To me my choice is Pippen because he was a perfect piece.  He also could lead a team.   Just because he wasnt an elite scorer or 1st option on offense doesnt prove otherwise.  Melo has always been a 1st option guy and he is not as good as Scottie was because Scottie brought sooooooo much more to the table with intangibles.  Chit that just dont show up in a box score.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[surveParticipant]

I agree with your assessments.  This goes beyond stats.  While I do not have time to truly go in depth about it….I choose Pippen.  Its easy to dismiss Pippen by saying if he hadnt played with Jordan.  I always ask what if Jordan didnt play with Pippen?  You cant just swap Pippen and Malone and say the Bulls get 6 championships.  It doesnt work like that.

one reason is, Pippen took a lot of the pressure of defending off of Jordan by guarding some of the league’s best offensive players.   that is not saying Pippen was the greatest defender of all time or better than Jordan on defense…what I am saying is…because Michael was the focal point of the offense and Pippen wasnt it was better to place Scottie on some guys as opposed to Jordan.  one, to conserve energy, and two to conserve fouls.

Malone obviously couldnt help in these areas as he was a PF….so he aint gonna be guarding Magic or Clyde.  

Secondly, the way the Bulls offense was set up, they didnt prefer the traditional PGs, hence the reason they traded away BJ after he was an All-Star.  they preferred big defensive minded guards who didnt need the ball in their hands a lot because they chose to run the offense through MJ and Pip.  For this reason, Pip handled the ball a lot.  Something else that would be impossible for Karl to do as he was a PF.

When you swap the players, you may gain points with Karl and rebounds, but the Bulls didnt need any more points and they always managed to have good rebounding….whether you had moderate rebounding from the frontcourt balanced out by above average rebounding from their wings or you had Dennis Rodman.

Again, I say its not that simple.  When you switch players, you have to restructure that entire offense and defense to make it work.  The Bulls never needed a Malone.  They did fine with complimentary role guys like Grant and Kukoc because they were non threatening to Jordan and Pippen.  Everyone fit like a perfect puzzle, even when they moved some players out and brought others in.

To me my choice is Pippen because he was a perfect piece.  He also could lead a team.   Just because he wasnt an elite scorer or 1st option on offense doesnt prove otherwise.  Melo has always been a 1st option guy and he is not as good as Scottie was because Scottie brought sooooooo much more to the table with intangibles.  Chit that just dont show up in a box score.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

If you put Malone on Jordan’s Bulls, they still win multiple championships. If you put Pippen on Stockton’s Jazz, they still have zero. It’s obvious. I don’t even think that’s debatable.
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That argument cuts both ways though. If you put Malone on Jordan’s Bulls does he average 25+ PPG year in and year out? Hell no. His PPG (which is really the major thing along with his durability/longevity that makes him stand out among the great PFs of history) would probably go down a fair bit.

If you put Pippen on the Jazz with Stockton I would expect him to have routinely put up 22 PPG, 7 RPG, 6 APG, 2.5 SPG seasons throughout the 90s and would probably still go down as one of the greatest All-around players of all time. So we might still be having this debate.

[surveParticipant]

 it dont work like that.  it aint that simple.  you dont just trade 2 players and dont make any other moves for chemistry’s sake.  if Scottie goes to the Jazz then you have to move some pieces out and bring some in.  you could replace Karl with a moderate PF of that time and you dont need guys like Byron Russell.  If you put Karl on the Bulls, now you need another wing defender who can handle the ball.  Having Karl eradicates the need for having Rodman or Grant.  so its not just as simple as swapping players.  The coach, the offense, the defense, and the personnel plays a large part of the outcome in winning/losing.   If you were swapping players who played the same position, then I could see that…but you are talking swapping a specific type of PF with a specific type of SF.   it just aint as simple as you make it seem when it comes to team makeup and chemistry.

[surveParticipant]

 it dont work like that.  it aint that simple.  you dont just trade 2 players and dont make any other moves for chemistry’s sake.  if Scottie goes to the Jazz then you have to move some pieces out and bring some in.  you could replace Karl with a moderate PF of that time and you dont need guys like Byron Russell.  If you put Karl on the Bulls, now you need another wing defender who can handle the ball.  Having Karl eradicates the need for having Rodman or Grant.  so its not just as simple as swapping players.  The coach, the offense, the defense, and the personnel plays a large part of the outcome in winning/losing.   If you were swapping players who played the same position, then I could see that…but you are talking swapping a specific type of PF with a specific type of SF.   it just aint as simple as you make it seem when it comes to team makeup and chemistry.

[Author]

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