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The Best PG Debate

td8118
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The Best PG Debate

This is something that has been bothering me for a while that recently has come up again.

As everyone knows, Chris Paul is having a spectacular start to his season, leading his Hornets to a shocking 6-0 start over quality opponenets. With this success, I have read countless articles so far saying how the best PG debate is ludacris and that Chris Paul is the undisputed best PG in the league.

As someone who follows the NBA extremely close I really am shocked at how many knowledgeable NBA fans feel the debate over best PG isn't really a question at all. While I happen to believe the best PG is Deron Williams, at the very least I feel anyone should concede that it very close between the two. However, the Chris Paul advocates feel it is a knock to him to even include Deron Williams in the same discussion as Paul. Here are the major arguments for why Paul is better then Deron Williams.

Chris Paul has better statistics then Deron Williams in almost every category.

Paul--- PPG- 19.3 AST- 10.0 RPG- 4.7 FG%- 47.3 3P FG- 35.4 FT%- 84.9

Williams--PPG- 16.8 AST- 9.1 RPG- 3.1 FG% 46.7 3P FG- 36.1 FT%- 79.9

As you can see, this is a valid argument as Paul is best in every category. Before I argue this let me bring up the other major argument people have when claiming Paul as the undisputed best.

Paul plays with much less talent then Deron Williams.

Again I agree with this statement, but theres a major problem with this logic.

Superstars will always put up better numbers when they have less talent surrounding them.

4 years ago Kobe Bryant was putting up amazing numbers on a marginal Lakers squad. The talent just was not there and Kobe was forced to do carry the scoring load night in night out. He would go 7 games in a row needing to put up 50+ points and his team remained average. However, after getting the talented he desperately needed to contend, his numbers have obviously declined. Does this mean he is a worse player? Of course not.

The same can also be said about Lebron James. He will certainly never put up the scoring numbers we saw in Cleveland, but no rational fan would think his skills diminish because of that. Obviously we can realize do not tell the full story on how good a player is.

To me the most obvious reason that D-Will is better is his continued dominance of CP3 in head to head matchups. To me there is no better way to judge then to see two guys head to head against one another and Paul has repeatedly shown an inability to shut down Williams


ItsVictorOladipo
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However, the Chris Paul

However, the Chris Paul advocates feel it is a knock to him to even include Deron Williams in the same discussion as Paul.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree with that. I'm a CP3 backer and when I list the top PGs in the game I have CP3 at 1A and Deron as 1B. Obviously the discrepency is close. Most CP3 supporters I know feel the same way...

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I'm a cp3 fan nor a dwill fan

I'm a cp3 fan nor a dwill fan but I must say cp3 makes bums or below average players relevant like Chandler, pargo, he made David west a all-star, rasual butler

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So he puts up more assists

So he puts up more assists because he plays with less talent? I'm a huge CP3 fan, so I obviously think he's better...like WizKid said, he made players like Tyson Chandler and David West look like All-Stars

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i use the 1a and 1b

i have them as 1a and 1 b as well with rondo and nash not for behind if rondo contuies this pace all year i mite have to have 1 a 1 b and 1 c

td8118
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watch Deron Williams tonight

watch Deron Williams tonight thats all i ask...watch him for a full game and tell me hes not the most fluid pg in the game

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CP3 does the things only

CP3 does the things only purists of the game realizes..Thats what separates him from D-Will who i think is number 2..

But isnt it strange that if CP3,D-Will,Rondo,Rose and Wall were coming out of college next year Wall would be the 1st Pick...lol

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chris paul... i repeat is the

chris paul... i repeat is the best PG in the nba today... without a question...only when healthy of course

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There seems to be so much

There seems to be so much more talk these days about the Derrick Rose's, Russel Westbrook's, and John Wall's ... but Chris Paul and Derron Williams are still ahead of all those guys

... i don't think that from any knowledgable basketball fan you'll find much discrepency in the fact that Chris Paul and Derron Williams are the top two point guards in the league, there's those guys .. and then everybody else

that being said, i've always thought chris paul was the leader of the pack, but started last season to hop aboard the derron williams bandwagon because paul was injured and who knew if he was going to be able to come back at peak form? ... well, he has and once again this season i think he's confirmed why he's the best point guard in the NBA - Derron Williams is a great player too though and not that far behind, it's certainly not an insult to include him in the discussion

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I've been watching them both

I've been watching them both very closely and though Williams is bigger, I think Paul is better.

I can't quite put my finger on why I like Paul better. I feel like Paul just has more natural God given talent and is getting the max out of it too. He's in complete control out there. Just an amazing player.

I also think Paul is the better leader, especially vocally. He just seems like he always knows what's going on with everybody.

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This debate is like Brady vs

This debate is like Brady vs Manning. Brady has more wins when it counts, but more because his coach is as good as it gets. Brady wins more head to head matchups against Manning, but to me, its really clear who's better based on the level of control.

Paul, like Manning, is as good as it gets when it comes to being in complete control. He uses his immaculate dribble, jab steps, headfakes and crossovers the way manning uses his snap count. He reads the defense by forcing them to commit before theyre ready, giving Paul the ability to pull up, attack the rim, or dish off to anyone open. He's slice the defense, weaving to the front of the rim, maintain his dribble and draw away a big from the post and lob it to the open man.

He'll deliver PERFECT passes in the break or while he's double teamed. As a matter of fact, he probably the hard man to double team because his ball control and body control are so good, he'll split the defense before they even converge. He NEVER has his head down. Not attacking the basket, not facing pressure on the the point line. His court awareness is as good as anyone in the league. And his shooting is going from very good to elite.

He's inline to get 50-40-90 percentages one of these years. Combine that with the fact that his turnover rate is the best I've seen for anyone that handles the ball as much as Paul, and that he's in contention for the league lead in steals (more than half I'd be willing to bet are on the ball), and you have the skillset of a point god. the 5 boards are just to finish the deal.

How many players can you say have a realistic chance at 20 pts 5 reb 10 ast 2.5 stls, 2.5 tos and 50-40-90? Now how many players in the history of the game? If Paul stays healthy and continues to play at this level, we may be looking at the most talented point guard of all time.

IndianaBasketball
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That's a good comparison...

That's a good comparison... Paul is the Peyton Manning of basketball lol.

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Plus Chris Paul doesn't throw

Plus Chris Paul doesn't throw basketballs at Gordon Hayward's face

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Tom Brady was better than

Tom Brady was better than Manning,, but I see the comparison

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ummmmmmm

if pauls teammates are less talented why is his team better right now?

(because paul is better)

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...

ItsDwightHoward - Three games into the season, Mr.Knick asked me something along the lines of "How can you still believe Williams is better?" Also, look at some of the posts in this topic.

Deron Williams could average 25 points a game along with 12 assists, and lead the Jazz to a championship, but any intelligent person would still be able to make a valid argument that Chris Paul is better.

Dead horse.

Stop beating it.

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@butidonthavemoney

Stupidest comment ever

You said the key word "could" ya but has he done that yet?

What if I tell you Paul can average 30 and 15 and lead the Hornets to Championship?

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I think like someone on Espn

I think like someone on Espn said it is all about need. Guys are so good but in different ways that you can make a legit argument for both guys. Also saying one on one results has nothing to do with being a better point guard. Chris Paul is more a facilitator that can score points when needed. Some of his great passes don't lead to assists but he manages that team so well that people take it for granted. Chris Paul is a superstar and he makes every player he plays with better. He can do offense defense. Williams sometimes put up huge numbers but I still feel Paul's game management is light years ahead but Williams is great in his own right so it is a close one but I would put Williams slight below Paul but I can see how those who like Williams could feel that Deron is better.

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He was obviously being

He was obviously being sarcastic. He is a Jazz fan. His point is that no matter what Williams does, people still seem to be convinced that Paul is better.

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I honestly have never

I honestly have never understood how Deron Williams could be considered better than Chris Paul. It's close and everything, but just watching games you can simply tell Paul is the best PG in basketball. He can score, dish, he's smart and a charismatic leader. He's also clearly an extremely hard worker who gets as much out of himself as he does out of his teammates. And he's also more efficient. I watch Deron Williams play and say he's an elite PG. But when you watch Chris Paul play, he'll literally take over a game at all facets and get everyone else to step up too. Paul is simply a special player. He's a top 5 PLAYER in the NBA, I don't think you can say that about Williams.

Like Indianabasketball said, IMO Deron Williams only has a size advantage over him. Everything else is Chris Paul

butidonthavemoney
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No

My point was that no matter what happens this season, either player could be considered better. Context clues, my friends. Even if Williams did average 30 points and 15 assists, one could say the Paul is more important to his team, plays better defense, is a better rebounder, etc...

Some people think that there is an obvious answer, and everybody who disagrees is stupid. Like "Chris Paul is obviously better. If you think that Williams is better than you are biased." That is where I disagree.

"What if I tell you Paul can average 30 and 15 and lead the Hornets to Championship?"

Then any intelligent Jazz fan could still make a valid argument that Deron Williams is the better player. Do you see my point here?

JNixon-Iggy9 - "but just watching games you can simply tell Paul is the best PG in basketball"

No, no, no, no. YOU can simply tell. I cannot. I know of many, many other people (non-Jazz fans too) who believe that Williams is better, and has been better since before Paul's injury. I understand people for thinking Paul is better, but I believe Williams is better. I have made my points, and will not repeat them due to the fact that you all seem to ignore them and write me off as biased.

You know what, I think apples are better than oranges. In fact, apples are obviously better than oranges. Anyone who disagrees is either a dumbass or an orange-farmer.

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Apples are definitely better

Apples are definitely better then Oranges.

butidonthavemoney
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Ugh

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

I'm beginning to hate these forums.

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"JNixon-Iggy9 - "but just

"JNixon-Iggy9 - "but just watching games you can simply tell Paul is the best PG in basketball"

No, no, no, no. YOU can simply tell. I cannot. I know of many, many other people (non-Jazz fans too) who believe that Williams is better, and has been better since before Paul's injury. I understand people for thinking Paul is better, but I believe Williams is better. I have made my points, and will not repeat them due to the fact that you all seem to ignore them and write me off as biased."

It's kinda hard not to write you off as biased. You are a Jazz fan who is saying a Jazz player is better despite little to nothing besides opinions from people to hold weight in the argument. Chris Paul pretty much consistently puts up better stats, leads teams with mediocre or below talent to the playoffs and/or gets them to overachieve, and is unarguably a better leader.

The only thing you ever say is stuff like "Charles Barkley and Kenny Smith thought Deron Williams was better at the beginning of the season last year" and "I don't wanna argue it, nobody listens to what I say." It's hard to think you're not biased when you won't truly argue a point, even when all that appears to be inevitable could be disproven by simply saying something concrete.

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Ha

"despite little to nothing besides opinions from people"

This confirms what I was saying before. You IGNORE me, and write me off as biased. I have had the Williams vs. Paul argument with you at least two or three times before, and I have absolutely made valid arguments. I have stated several times, I WILL NOT HAVE THIS ARGUMENT AGAIN. You would simply just ignore me again and a few months later, you would say something like this again.

butidonthavemoney
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Go

"and is unarguably a better leader."

Really?

Convince me.

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"This confirms what I was

"This confirms what I was saying before. You IGNORE me, and write me off as biased. I have had the Williams vs. Paul argument with you at least two or three times before, and I have absolutely made valid arguments. I have stated several times, I WILL NOT HAVE THIS ARGUMENT AGAIN. You would simply just ignore me again and a few months later, you would say something like this again."

Are you mad? lol

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Yes

I hate, hate, HATE when people tell me I'm biased. You're basically calling me a liar, and I always take that personally.

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I agree. You can not tell

I agree. You can not tell just by watching.  We had this big debate last week while at the sports bar. None of us were jazz fans or hornets fans but 6 out of the 11 people said cp3 is better and the other 5 said dwill is better. All of us watch both players play and it's pretty much even. The best pg is dependant on each persons opinion with no right or wrong answer. If you had the majority of people saying one over the other that's one thing but when you constantly have basketball fans saying one or the other or tied then it's not as easy as just watching them play. It may be to some but that's their personal preverance but for the most part it's just about dead even.  On another site they have dwill as the better player but only by a very lil bit

butidonthavemoney
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Quincey

Quincey = The voice of reason.

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"I hate, hate, HATE when

"I hate, hate, HATE when people tell me I'm biased. You're basically calling me a liar, and I always take that personally."

Virtual hug. It'll be alright.

IndianaBasketball
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"I hate, hate, HATE when

"I hate, hate, HATE when people tell me I'm biased. You're basically calling me a liar, and I always take that personally."

Oh shut up crybaby... Not only are you biased, you're also a hypocrite. Here you are complaining about how someone is calling YOU biased, but didn't you just try to call me biased just because I said Deron Williams throwing the ball at Gordon Hayward was a dick head move?

butidonthavemoney
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I doubt

I doubt I ever called you biased.

I'll look up the topic. You remember the name of it?

butidonthavemoney
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Found

BillyK - "Hayward needs to focus and step his game up this isnt the Horizon league... Its funny how people are so quick to critcize some players (they dont like) and stick up for players they like..."

llperez - "billyk, i dont think being a fan of certain players is an issue here. WHat draws you to that conlcusion?"

butidonthavemoney - "I think he was addressing IndianaBasketball, AKA ButlerBulldogs.

I agree with everyone. Deron Williams was obviously frustrated and, like Sloan said, there was a better way of letting him know to cut next time. I've watched him for a long time, and while he's never done anything like this before, he isn't exactly the nicest guy you'll ever meet. His comments after Western Conference Finals trip a few years back were indicative of that."

That was all I could find. If I missed something, please let me know.

If not, I would like an apology.

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/moving-onsuns-jazz

butidonthavemoney
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I

I also said this...

"I know you like Hayward and want to see him do well, but if he can't play in the Jazz system then he needs to sit his ass down on the bench."

Of course, that was not intended to imply that your argument was flawed due to a bias.

IndianaBasketball
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"I think he was addressing

"I think he was addressing IndianaBasketball, AKA ButlerBulldogs."

You weren't implying that I was biased about Hayward by posting... "AKA ButlerBulldogs?"

butidonthavemoney
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No

That used to be your name correct?

I was explaining to llperez where the idea that you could be biased came from. If llperez wasn't aware that you were a Butler fan, then he wouldn't have known what billyk was talking about.

Personally, I've always thought of you as one of the most intelligent posters here. In that very same topic, I gave you a bunch of positive points. You made me mad at one point when you belittled me during our argument, but I didn't think I had done anything to warrent you calling me out like you just did.

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I don't agree with the better

I don't agree with the better teammate arguements some people make. David west was helped by Paul but Paul didn't make him a allstar west abilities did that. Someone could make the arguement about west making Paul a allstar which would be just as dumb.  Just because someone has worst teammates but they put up the same stats as someone with better teammates doesn't mean the player in the worst team is better. I really couldn't tell you who is better because it's so close. One day I'd have dwill the next cp3. 

By the eat David west averaged less than a point less without Paul and shot a better field goal
Percentage

IndianaBasketball
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"That used to be your name

"That used to be your name correct?

I was explaining to llperez where the idea that you could be biased came from. If llperez wasn't aware that you were a Butler fan, then he wouldn't have known what billyk was talking about."

Who do you think you're manipulating? Llperez has been on this site longer than anybody. I think he knows I changed my name to ButlerBulldogs before the NCAA tournament.

"Personally, I've always thought of you as one of the most intelligent posters here. In that very same topic, I gave you a bunch of positive points."

This is also another form of manipulation. It's called, "Buttering You Up."

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Well

I know llperez has been around. That's why I was surprised he didn't pick up on billyk's "allegations".

You're acting like I've have some ill-intent here. I really don't. We had an argument, I don't know why you are holding it over my head. I swear I didn't ever intentionally imply that you were biased. I've always tried hard to be a respected poster on this site, and you don't get there by writing people off because of their favorite teams/players.

I have no reason to manipulate you. What do I possibly have to gain here?

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One thing people failed to

One thing people failed to mention when it comes to the CP3 v Deron Williams debate is that Williams plays in a highly coordinated offense where everyone is moving in synch so he knows where people are going to be because it is all well-rehearsed. We've seen what happens when someone doesn't make the right move, Williams gets frustrated. If you look at Paul, he's pretty much creating it all himself out there and just reacting to what the D is giving him on the fly. This is why I remain convinced Chris Paul is better, in addition to the other reasons people have given here.

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I'm not holding anything over

I'm not holding anything over your head. This is the first time I've said anything about it. It's over then... I just thought that little rant about how you "HATE" when people tell you you're biased was a little over the top and hypocritical.

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My pick for best PG in CP3.

My pick for best PG in CP3.

I don't think D-Will could lead a team with guys like D-West, Okafor, Ariza, Bellineli, Green and Smith as his group to work with IMO. Rondo cannot lead them because he's greatest scorer.

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Whatever

I do hate it when people tell me I'm biased.

I also hate it when people say I'm hypocritical, without having anything substantial to back it up.

I'm not keen on people calling me a crybaby, but that one might be true.

I must have really hurt your feelings during that argument to make you call me out like that two and a half weeks later.

IndianaBasketball
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"This confirms what I was

"This confirms what I was saying before. You IGNORE me, and write me off as biased. I have had the Williams vs. Paul argument with you at least two or three times before, and I have absolutely made valid arguments. I have stated several times, I WILL NOT HAVE THIS ARGUMENT AGAIN. You would simply just ignore me again and a few months later, you would say something like this again."

"I hate, hate, HATE when people tell me I'm biased. You're basically calling me a liar, and I always take that personally."

^^^ Who's the one with hurt feelings??? ^^^

You can keep up the little online act if you want. You got mad that I said Deron Williams, your favorite point guard, was a dick head and not a great vocal leader, when he threw the ball at a rookie... So you tried to "sneak diss" and imply that I was biased.

Now seriously... I'm done. Point is made.

butidonthavemoney
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Wow

I do have hurt feelings. I've made that clear.

At least I'm not making stuff up, and calling people out for something that never happened.

You have lost a lot of respect from me. Calling me a malicious, biased, lying hypocrite and not being able to back such an erronious claim is low.

You mad at Deron Williams for disrespecting Hayward? You're disrespecting me for NO REASON. You are the hypocrite here.

BTW, you can't insult somebody like that and then say, "I'm done. Point is made." You haven't made a point. You've just spewed nonsense and tried to pass it off using your reputation as substance.

IndianaBasketball
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"I know you like Hayward and

"I know you like Hayward and want to see him do well, but if he can't play in the Jazz system then he needs to sit his ass down on the bench."

How does THAT not back up my claims? It's right there to see. Not only were you mad I posted something negative about Williams, you tried to imply that I was biased.

Like I asked above... Who are you trying to manipulate? That quote above proves that you were trying to tell me that I was being biased. "I know you like Hayward..." What more do you need? IF you weren't trying to imply that I was being biased, you wouldn't have typed, "I know you like Hayward..."

And why we're still on that specific situation... You know what? It had absolutely nothing to do with Gordon Hayward. It had 100% to do with Deron Williams. I never thought that was his personality. He could've done that to CJ Miles and I'd have posted the same thing.

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Come on guys, it's not that

Come on guys, it's not that serious.

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BACK ON TOPIC! What Williams

BACK ON TOPIC!

What Williams has is superior size, strength, explosiveness, and "kill mode". He'll have moments where he'll out physical or out work you on moves that would normally lead to turnovers or terrible looks. He's a better bad shot maker, so its understandable where people would want you over certain players. Kobe make make the wrong play from a team standpoint but his skill makes it work. Williams has that ability. Paul however, just rarely makes these decisions. He rarely gets a bad look, takes a bad shot, makes a bad pass. Its like if Ray Allens offensive game included exceptional ball handling and exceptional passing. He's gritty, tough, a ball hawk, a great shooter, and a great rebounder. He's not as flashy as Williams, though he has his moments, but Paul just plays the way I feel a consumate point guard should play.

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I've told you

That was not meant to imply that you were biased. You do like Hayward, do you not? I never said that it affected your ability to argue on the subject. Hell, that quip wasn't even directed to the argument we were having (Deron Williams being a d*ck).

I was making an observation that turned out to be right...

Hayward can't run the Jazz offense right now. Hayward has been riding the bench lately.

You are the one manipulating things, trying to make something out of nothing.

Im Your Father
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Can't we all be friends here?

Can't we all be friends here? Beef between Nomoney and Indianabasketball, Beef between Jammin-Lemmon and Indiana Basketball... nbadraft.net should be like one big happy family.

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