[jjj10manParticipant]

 Over the last few year advanced anayltics have change the way we look at stats in basketball, most notably with the 3 point shot. 

One under the radar change I noticed is how we percieve defense. But there are still standards that hang around basketball circles like stereotyping athletic players (Andrew Wiggins) to be good defenders and not great shooters (Lavine). 
 

One of these I hear all the time, especially when debating Lebron vs Bird is 
"Larry Bird wasn’t a good defender". Of couse advanced stats weren’t around when Bird played, but if you look at the numbers on the great 86 Celtics he had a 99 DRtg (2nd on the team, on what’s considered one of the greatest defensive teams of all time). He also averages 2 steals and a block for his career, and has a higher career Drtg than LeBron and Lebron’s Drtg wil only go down from this point (Albiet, Bird’s defensive rating is inflated because of those great defensive teams).

I’m not saying Bird is a better defender than LeBron but the numbers suggest that it’s very close….like MJ Kobe close. And honestly this really opens the Lebron vs Bird discussion up quite a bit.

Thoughts?

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 You can make this argument all day until LeBron passes Bird’s 3 titles.  

If you have a NBA Mt. Rushmore for Centers/Bigs with Kareem, Wilt, and Russell with Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan battling it out for the 4th spot, then the NBA Mt. Rushmore for non-bigs has Jordan, LeBron, Magic, and either Kobe or Bird for the 4th spot with those clearly being the TOP FIVE all-time non-bigs in NBA history.  

Ok, if you did a Center/Power Forward Top 5 it would be Russell, Wilt, and Kareem (the original Axis of Centers), along with Shaq and Duncan (sorry Hakeem although his two year run was unforgettable).

Maybe Bird’s individual PEAK was better — probably a 3 year run from 1984 to 1986.  

LeBron’s PRIME basically started the day he stepped on the court in the pros.  And, still going strong.

MJ’s prime lasted pretty much his entire career.  

Shaq and Wilt had AWESOME peaks but their primes weren’t as long as Jordan’s (or LeBron’s). Same with Bird. Same with Magic.

Kobe had a long prime but his peak wasn’t as good.  His best year stats wise was a dud in terms of wins.

Kareem had an AWESOME peak, an extended prime, but his last years weren’t that great.  

As far as 3 year runs go, Bird’s is up there with anybody’s…

I would LOVE to compare peak 3 year runs between those players I just mentioned.  Throw Durant, Curry, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and some others in there, too.

That would be considered a PEAK.  Or, you can compare 5 year runs, which is either an EXTENDED PEAK or a relatively smaller prime.  The 10 year run would be considered an EXTENDED PRIME with varrying degrees of peak.

Not even sure how many guys could even QUALIFY for a 15 year prime.  Jordan didn’t play that many years in Chicago TOTAL (I don’t think).  Bird’s career didn’t last that long. Neither did Magic’s.  I think Wilt played right around 13 or 14 years.  Bill Russell played 13.

That would give you Kareem, LeBron, and MAYBE Kobe on a short-short list of guys who would even QUALIFY to have a 15 year prime, or at least high-level All Star seasons.

So, yeah, that might be a great project for us around here: see who the top guys are in terms of 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, and 15 years — LeBron might have the 10 year run award.  He’s in the running for the 15 year run award.  If he plays until he is 40, then LeBron might have an UNPRECEDENTED 20 year LEGIT run.  

Might depend on who LeBron is chasing — Michael Jordan, actually the BEST NBA player of all time, or Bill Russell, the GREATEST player of all time, BEST ever on Defense, one of the greatest leaders, and had the BEST RUN in pro sports history.  

To pass MJ, LeBron would need AT LEAST another title, a 3peat here would TIE Jordan in terms of titles, but considering his "lifetime achievements" LeBron would pass him at that point.  

To pass Russell, LeBron needs at least another title or two (a 4peat would be GREAT), preferably in Cleveland, or at least a finishing run in one town to end his career, and would, at the VERY LEAST have to get to as many straight (or total) Finals as Bill Russell.  Russell went to 8 straight, and 12 total.  I think LeBron has been to 7 straight.  And, 8 total so far.  NINE STRAIGHT which would give him a Finals appearance in every year of this decade except for 2010.  Two more straight (with hopefully one more ring) would put him in contention for the BOAT (BEST of all time) as well as the GOAT.  IF he TIES MJ for rings (6) and PASSES Russell for total amount of Finals appearances then LeBron wins BOTH titles (BOAT and GOAT).  

If LeBron ends up on the Lakers this summer, then with him leading Baby Showtime (Lonzo, Ingram, Kuzma, Randle, and Hart) I think LeBron can get his 3peat within the next few years.  

LeBron on the Lakers would set up some ICONIC WCF matches against either the Warriors or Rockets.  Then if they can get to the Finals you have the potential for some really fun Lakers-Raptors, or a renewal of the two best/most iconic rivalries in NBA history, Lakers vs. Celtics and Lakers vs. Sixers.  

SHOWBRON would give LBJ a chance at breaking Russell’s record run of 12 Finals appearances in 13 seasons, even if CAVSBRON doesn’t get to the money round this year.

The Grizzlies are my team now, although I really like the Lakers.  I appreciate LeBron winning a title in his home state on a small market team.

I ALSO get the Philly intrigue.  And, maybe LeBron can make the Knicks great again.  Or, he makes a go-go Rockets team even MORE go-go — now with more inside scoring and slashing.  He could go to the Warriors to form the VIDEO GAME FOUR HORSEMEN along with Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, and Klay Thompson.  

THAT BEING SAID… I would be DISAPPOINTED if LeBron didn’t go to the LA LAKERS.

#hollywoodlebron

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PaulsJayhawksParticipant]

 Fantasy hoops was around back then, he would have been one hell of a pick.

[mowestenParticipant]

Interesting post. Think of it this way: if you didn’t know anything about the two players, and just judged it by how strong, physical and athletic they are (were) you would probably assume LeBron was a far superior rebounder.

Not the case. Larry was actually the far superior rebounder, averaged 10 per game for his career, and had several years where he was among the league leaders and was over 11 per game.

Now would that translate to defense? Not necissarily. But I do think Bird was probably a little better than most would imagine.

On a side note, LeBron was a much better player at a younger age, and thus put together a longer career. Bird didn’t come into the league until he was 23 and by that time LeBron was in his fifth year and had averaged 31 PPG and led the league with 30 PPG.

They’re probably closer than most of the younger generation would admit, but I think LeBron has been the better player and put together a better career overall.

 

[mcbaileyParticipant]

Bird was incredibly talented as a young player, though. He came in older because 1) he went to college, and 2) he dropped out of IU as a freshman because he hated Bloomington.

 

Your main case is longevity, which is fair. Bird had a shorter window because of the reasons listed above and the major back trouble he had when he was an older player. 

 

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