Are the Pacers too white?
llperez22- I understand what u were saying but at 13..if a guy who we believe is a 6-8th option off the bench in 3 years in the BPA.......sorry thats a weak draft
...on PTI. He mentioned all the recent trouble the Pacers' organization has dealt with (Artest, Jackson, Tinsley), so maybe the organization is looking for a cleaner image. With that said, I don't think Adande is insisting that every white player has a cleaner image than any one else. He also mentioned the Indianapolis community is mostly white, 67.5% according to my research.
However, I think that Bird is simply just building a team that he thinks will win. Winning is going to draw the big crowds more than having a team that is filled with players that have the same skin tone as the majority of your fanbase.
Knicksboy, what people in the NBA seem to do is look at these things as trends. They see David Lee in Hansbrough, and therefore Hansbrough's stock rises. Adrian Peterson has a monster year, running backs get drafted. Dirk Nowitzki is a monster, Nikoloz Tskitishvilli goes 5th in the draft. Guys get drafted higher than expected quite often. They also go lower than expected, it just happens. I think Hansbrough going 13, considering who was left on the board, was not at all a big deal. If Bird wants a big who works his ass off and has put up numbers everywhere he has played, than Hansbrough was the second best one of those in this draft after Griffin. Not saying he is great by any means, but everyone can admit this draft sucked when it came to legit bigs. Hansbrough ceiling is lower than players he was drafted after, but so is his floor. He is a safe pick as a role player, I think a lot of people can agree with that. He is not Mark Madsen, but he is not Dave Cowens. If he is somewhere near Troy Murphy, they got a steal. It is not like he is devoid of tools to succeed as a basketball player.
I also think Knicksboy, that you are not devoid of insight, but you should try and show some more. If you want to work for ESPN, and lord knows I think you would be an improvement, try and say more than those guys do on Around the Horn and PTI. Those shows are fun to watch, and everyone can appreciate their ADD format, but those guys usually sound like idiots because they are never given enough time to research or make a point. Hence, we have the printed word, where we can do these things. So, if you want to stress something, and as you often say "make an argument", MAKE AN ARGUMENT. Do not just talk about it brother, say, this is how I feel and this is why. I know I would respect that, as I have with you actually stating points in this post. Sure the topic of the Pacers being too white is a step back for humankind, but good job.
I thought he was 20-24 range myself. But as the draft got closer, he performed better then a lot of other guys. Considering this was a weak draft, 13 sounds about right.
20 bucks says Larry Bird drafts Cole Aldrich next season
But you cant lie, Larry isnt TOTALLY racist, but he does prefer to have white players than black, and its obvious
The league is like 10% white, and 6% are on the Pacers, lol jk
Race in basketball is overrated, people should start ignoring race...
mikeyvthedon- Thank you.
I mean im on the site of " get the best players" to win. I admit adding a player like Murphy and Dunleavy was a bit foolish in my eyes at the time because you had O'neal ( who you just gave him like 7 year, 125 mil) and David Harrison who was a 1st round pick...you add a shooter in Mike but S-Jax and Al were two players who could give you 16-22 points and 5-8 rebounds ( Al is more 8 as Jackson is around 5) for Troy Murphy and Dunleavy who at that point were decent...not great. I think the Brawl did have a huge influence on that trade though.
The brawl is why it went down. I am sure Larry will build a team eventually, the problem is not that his players are white, it is also that many of his players are hard to trade without getting significantly less in return. Also, Murphy had been more distinguished than Mike D at that point, he was having a weak season though. But the whole brawl situation doomed that team. Still, Danny Granger was a super impressive pick, if anything Larry Bird may have seen himself in him, the kid is good. Nonetheless, they are just straight up not that great a team, and I do not think much would have changed peoples opinions had they drafted Earl Clark, Austin Daye, James Johnson or DeJuan Blair. The 13th pick in this draft was not going to cause to much optimism in turning your team around (Blair is seen as being a nice complimentary player, not turning the Spurs around just to distinguish the difference to people who may thought that statement was untrue). By the way, I was honestly interested in hearing what you had to say regarding Oscar Robertson being better than Mike. Sorry for seeming like a dick about it, but I was trying to coax you to write what you believe man. If you put some thought and points behind it, people at least have to respect it. I would, even if I did not agree with it. I usually give points to people who put thought into what they say.
Look, Larry Bird is just trying to sell tickets people... I'm not from Indiana, but I know that when I go to TWolves/Bucks game I'd say the fans are predominantly white. I'd guess the same is true in Indiana. After you have the kind of incident that the pacers had, you have to revamp your image to reengage the fan base... The fact is, the majority of the white people that buy tickets to games are likely to perceive that incident as "thuggish black guys" getting outta control, and frankly they're less likely to buy tickets if that's the perceived product on the court. Whether or not that is an ignorant, or politically correct perception is another story...
You have to put out a product that meets the consumer demand, and that wasn't going to happen with Stephen Jackson on the court (who I think, by the way, is a great guy, and his proven such in GS). If you instead think about it as Bird trying to meet what fans are going to come see, you might be able to better understand the Bird trades and draft picks... Besides Grainger, who was just too good to pass up, what do you think all those other guys had in common? They were all people that the fans already know....
Look down the list...
Troy Murphy: played at nearby Notre Dame
Mike Dunleavy: played at Duke, which is always on ESPN. What do you think the fans do on night when they don't go to a pacers game? they probably watch college basketball on ESPN...
That basically explaines the rest of the guys:
Tyler Hansbrough... UNC
AJ Price... UCONN
Roy Hibbert.... GEORGETOWN
Brandon Rush.... KANSAS
When you think about a typical night of college basketball on ESPN, I'd say there's a god chance one of those teams plays (Duke, UCONN, Kansas, GTown, UNC)
Larry Bird is trying to put together a team that the fans will come out to see. Some have been white, some have been black, the bond between them all is that the fans know them and are more likely to come see them play.
The real question is, what is Bird doing with a run-and-gun team with guys like Hibbert, Dunleavy, and Murphy? Why hire O'brien to run up and down the court with those guys, rather than a hybrid PF like Shawn Marion? That's beyond me....
was only partly because of the brawl. Both of those guys were gonna be given another chance, but Jax went shooting his gun outside a club the next year and Harrington flat out wanted traded. Bird sort of had his hand forced to get rid of thse guys to clean up the image.
the person hadn't posted about JA adande when i started writing, but i agree completely with that.
Troy Murphy > Al Harrington
Who cares if the Pacers where all white baskeball is business and Larry Bird (who is not a racist) trying to put a winning team on the floor....
Troy Murphy > Al Harrington
Most Definitely, Troy Murphy > Harrington.... Murphy's rebounding alone puts him light years ahead of Harrington...
Al may have more physical gifts but Harrington's only trump is that he's a big that can shoot the 3... Murphy can too.
I don't care what any of you say. You can knock me if you want. I don't think Larry Bird is racist, but I don't like the way he's re-building the team. I think he's too conservative and we can't win with this roster. Other than Danny Granger, Brandon Rush & TJ Ford we have little to no athleticism. Our front court is a joke. I'm used to watching previous Pacer teams w/ the Davis brothers and Rik Smits (who wasn't very athletic, but was tall, very skilled & aggressive). Indiana misses Donnie Walsh something serious.
I don't care what color you are... I want guys who can play and a team that can win in THIS LEAGUE. I see the teams and players that are successful and winning in the NBA. In the NBA, athletes rule. It takes more than just being an athlete, but let's be real here... Athletes rule the NBA. It's also a known fact that African-Americans are more athletic than Caucasians. That's a fact... Larry Bird said that himself. If you look at the Pacers roster though, it's not just that we have a bunch of slow white guys... It's the fact that they all play major roles. Is there another team in the league with more white guys playing prominant roles? You have a problem when Dunleavy is one of your go-to/star players. You have a problem when Troy Murphy is one of your go-to/star players. These guys are role players at best, not NOT stars. We're paying them like stars though. They're advertised around here like stars. Dunleavy wasn't even the best two guard on our roster this season (Marquise Daniels played GREAT this season) and he barely played this season, but he's advertised on billboards, buses, etc all around the city. When you throw in what Bird said in 2004, you can't blame people for thinking this.
Ever since the Pacers announced they wanted a "cleaner image" there's been a lot of debate around here. Many people feel that because Indiana is mostly white, they're trying to put a team on the floor that most of the public can relate to.
This is a straight forward perspective.
Pretty sure every state in the country is mostly white, except for a few majority Chicano states in the southwest. NC might be mostly black, but I'm not sure.
I say it's a toss up. Al can creat more offense, but Murphy is a great role player with better rebounding, shooting, and passing.
I disagree to a large extent. How can you say Dunleavy was not the best sg on that team? He was injured all year. A season ago he was 19-5-5 and a knock down shooter who was unselfish. It's not Birds fault he got injured. Granger is an all-star, and he was either sitting out or playing with an injury the whole second half the season. Troy Murphy might not be athletic, but he had a great year grabbed 12 boards a game and shot 45% on threes. Lot's of teams would love him. And what other white guys play a huge role? Nesterovic is on his way out, Foster is a solid backup who is actually pretty athletic.
Bird has been dealing with the whole Brawl fiasco, injuries to J ermaine O'neal, and inconsistent play at pg from guys like Tinsley, Jack, and Ford. Hibbert, Rush, and now Hansbrough all look like solid draft picks. Give Bird some time before you write off how he is building the team. I think they could compete for a playoff spot next year.
Al Harrington gets traded wherever he goes.
If Bird would have taken Greg Paulus instead of AJ Price in the second round then we could make a case the has a white agenda. Haha
Anyways, NJ was talking about taking Hansbrough at 11 so I dont think it was a stretch for him to draft Hansbrough at 13. He likes immediate contributors. He took 2 black players last year when there was more talented players on the board because they seemed like they could contribute immediately.
Bird isnt racist but he is more willing to take a chance on a white American than most other GM's.
I'm not gonna say bird is a racist, but I've got my eye on him. If he signs Wally Scerbiak, then his cover's blown, lol.
"Bird isnt racist but he is more willing to take a chance on a white American than most other GM's."
As the most popular user on this site, let me get in on this.
The Pacers have long had a public relations image problem since the Palace Brawl. Since then, they've been stuck between having good players who help them win games and pleasing the fans, who bring in ticket, parking, concession reveune, ect. Luckily, they drafted Danny Granger, who's turned out to be a nice player. In a way, he's help to save them a little in that reguard, because he's African-American with a good image.
To answer the question, the Pacers really did draft white players with the All-American personality and OK game to rebild the franchise's image.
Dhamp...the greatest basketball mind in the world. Next to Hubie Brown anyway.
I probably brought up something similiar at one point and lost points. It is crazy because a lot of white players who have played basketball do not think some white players should be in the NBA. Bird said it himself. Most African American are better athletes and tend to make up most of the NBA. I dont believe Bird is racist but if you listen to him talk. I don't believe he relates well with the urban culture. He was talking one day recently about actually listening to an Eminem CD and about how he now gets some of it because it has some good stories in it. Larry Bird likes to get players he relates to and more than likely they will be white. Everyone has a little prejudice in them in some way shape or form. it may not be a race thing. It is about being around people that you can relate too and be comfortable with. There are sometime cultural difference between a lot of white and black people that makes it hard for each person to understand the other person. There are some coach like Roy Williams who have been rumored to actually like having more athletic black players. Coaches have their preferences. Also Indiana has not really won but I will say this the player they picked up were solid but most white players have trouble on defense and to hide this on some teams you need a few long athletic black players to help them out. Indiana has white players and some slow black players. Rush may be their best athlete. Granger is a solid player but he has average athleticism. This is why the Pacers sometimes struggle they can not match most team on defense because of lack of athleticism
DHamp I could not have said it better myself. It is funny how you have white people taking offense when everyone knows that these players are not getting picked up and drafted solely on talent alone. Noone is saying that these white players are terrible but people are recognizing that a lot of white players are on that team and it is not by pure coincidence.
Also taking about people points and saying negative thing to people because they bring up this is foolish. It is not racist to acknowledge something that we all see. It would be stupid to ignore something so obvious. It this topic offends you stay off the thread. You have grown people and also young people who want to grow more mature by talking about life and basketball type topics.
i disagree. I think Bird has put togother a team that he thinks will win. He drafted rush and Hibbert last year, he just signed Dahntay Jones. His best player is Danny Granger. If you are gonna act like it is so obvious to everyone that something strange is going on, then speak for yourself, not everyone. Also, you are one of the only people on here who gives himself points after every post and then gets upset when others take them away.
I agree Sheltwon we should be able to openly discuss something like this, without anyone saying it is racist. However, it wasn't obvious that the Pacers had such a roster with 5-6 white guys. ESPN broke the news for me, otherwise I wouldn't have really known and I'm pretty sure this would not be a topic of discussion right now. However, I may have realized if I saw them playing on TV, but it would've just been a quick comment then and no more discussion.
I still believe, and agree with llperez, that the Pacers are building a roster to win. I heard before the draft that the Pacers were looking at drafting a player that had about 3-4 years of college experience. Also, someone pointed out that the Nets were considering Hansbrough at the 11 spot as well. So obviously teams thought he had some talent.
"...when everyone knows that these players are not getting picked up and drafted solely on talent alone."
Is that really a fair statement? I mean that could be a statement for any player that gets drafted. Teams are always evaluating players off the court actions as well as their talent on the court. That is why teams always conduct interviews with these guys to make sure their head is on straight. Besides the obvious top notch talents, no player is going to be drafted just solely on talent alone.