Am I the only one that sees a problem with Hayward being drafted before Babbitt
Babbitt actually looks like a NBA Player. He not a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd option to me but he can start on most teams because he has legit NBA size and skills. He can shoot. He also measured well in the combines which does not mean much. He can play the 4 or 3 spot and yet he is going behind Hayward. If I am not mistaken they are real close in age.
I have no idea why Larry Bird likes Hayward over Babbitt. Babbitt could actually fill a need since Murphy is on his way out. If Hayward replaces Granger I will not even acknowledge Indiana as a NBA team.
I do hope people don't turn this into a race thing because the race thing can not be avoided since right now both player are getting some sort of backing and hype because every year people both black and white are intrigue to see if there will be a white player that will translate over to the NBA. It happened with Redick, Morrison, Alexander, Dunleavy, Jackson, Ridnour, Nash(who is Canada or South African ), Mullens( who many hate) and others. The race thing in the NBA can not be avoided for better of worst because it is just the nature of the beast but comparing these two players one guys is light year ahead of the other one and the more talented one is getting drafted after the lesser.
no you are not the only one even though I like Hayward a lot as a prospect, but I was the only one on here in January saying Babbitt is going to be a beast at the next level.
Hayward is not likely to get picked before Babbitt though
If Babbitt isn't one of your main scorers at some point in his career (not talking rookie year) then he is useless. He isn't going to rebound much and isn't much of a defender. To be considered a successful players he is going to need to be able to score because he can't do anything else.
NBA small forwards with his skill set are rare.
Throw in his above average athleticism, bball IQ, strength, toughness and hustle, and you have a special player on the next level.
Definitely not a tweener, but a guy whose athleticism and skill set will enable him to play SF and SG very successfully in the NBA. Maybe PF but only in a pinch.
if we are talking bout Babbitt , 2 guard may be out of his reach because most 2 guard with blow by him. I can actually see Babbitt playing the 4 a lot because he has size now and is just a sophmore. He also looks like he could add 10 more lbs or so and not lose his quickness.
They are 2 different types of players..Hayward is a playmaker who can also rebound and hustles on defense..Babbitt is a scorer and he can use his athleticism on defense if he wants....Hayward was held back in Butler offense..I guarantee you guys..This time next year..You guys will be saying'''Daaaaammm i didnt know Hayward was that good!!!!! He's not the 2nd coming of Larry Bird..But he's no Kyle Korver either...
Babbitt is very athletic, 6-8 3/4 in shoes with a 6-11 1/4 wingspan.
Many less athletic players with shorter wingspans have seen time in the NBA at SG.
Babbitt has the physical tools and work ethic to become a decent defender at SG and SF. If Sasha Vujacic can defend SGs, so can Babbitt who's taller and longer.
But... 80% of his playing time will be at SF. No doubt.
I don't understand you. You said you don't see Babbitt being a 1st, 2nd or 3rd option, BUT... You still think he can start on most teams??? He's a SCORER. If he's not a top three option, then why would he be in the starting lineup? He doesn't defend well. You don't make any sense...
Who told you that Larry Bird prefers Hayward over Babbitt? I live in Indianpolis and haven't even heard that. Bird hasn't said anything about who he'll draft. You also wrote that, "If Hayward replaces Granger I will not even acknowledge Indiana as a NBA team." Are you retarded? I mean, why would you even say that? That'd never happen.
I'm sick of you making it like Hayward doesn't have NBA skills or isn't a NBA player. He was a borderline first round pick after his freshman season. He's been on the map. He played well last summer during the FIBA U19 World Games. He didn't just appear this season. YOU just found out about him this season. He's not just riding Butler's success in the tournament. He's worth a mid to late first round pick.
Why would a team prefer him over Babbitt?
- He WINS. He won in high school... The toughest division in the state. He won in college. He led Butler to the NCAA Tournament two consecutive years.
- He's skilled and knows how to play the game. He's very fundamentally sound. His IQ is very good.
- He can shoot the ball. Deep range three or he can shoot the mid-range.
- He's not just a shooter. He's a versatile scorer.
- He can handle the ball. He puts the ball on the floor with either hand and can finish with either hand. He also sees the floor well and is unselfish.
- He's tough, fearless and doesn't back down. He plays hard and competes at both ends.
- He's not afraid of the big moment.
- His work ethic is tremendous.
- He has great character.
Hmmm... Now why would you want him on your team?
Everything Hayward can do, Babbitt can do better.
There is no comparison.
Babbitt is the superior athlete as well.
If an NBA team pitted Hayward against Babbitt and George in a SF workout, the loser would be Hayward and his stock would drop.
I'm sure Hayward's agent won't allow such a matchup to happen.
The best comparison to Hayward is Luke Jackson.
Butler it would seem you are too close to Hayward to have an unbias assessment on him. You are calling me retarded for saying Hayward is not that good. At what point did I call you retarded. All of that stuff you are saying mean nothing to the NBA. Can he do that in the NBA. What team is going to give him that freedom. He does not have a NBA right now. Trust me I am warming up my mouth right now to say I told you so when this dude is stuck on the bench for like 3 years than dropped.
Butler is Rashard Lewis the first option on Orlando. He is like the 3rd or 4th option. I see Babbitt being a Rashard Lewis type player on offense. I see Hayward who you seem to have a man crush on as being a bench warmer maybe a 8th man. At lot of mocks and this site has him being drafted before Babbitt. I think that is really stupid.
Look dude I dont know you. I will not waste my time calling you out but how about this I am man enough if he can prove otherwise to say i was wrong and you were right. Can you do the same?
Butler did I not just say that he was worth a mid to late first round pick. I have said that from the beginning.
You must be deaf or can't read because I put him at 23 or something. That is pretty close to mid 1st rd. He is not good enough to be lottery though.
Personally I am starting to get upset about you trying to call me out with names because I said something about a player you like.
Dude real talk get over it. Are you guys family or dating or something. Seriously dude I dont know Hayward to not like him on a personal level. We will never agree about him. This is one of those things where we will both see so stop posting calling me out. if you disagree then you need to bring facts.
Do you realize how many NBA players know the game. There are players overseas or in the D league that know that game and can dribble with both hands.
I know the game, i can dribble with both hands but does that mean I am in the league no.
I am also insulted that you feel like that means so much. Most college players being drafted unless they are projects should know the game. Most NBA players if they are still in the league should know the game.
Great charactor does not equal wins and there are a lot of hard workers not in the league.
Butler did not win and he missed shots at the end if anything you prove my point. All this you have going for him and he was not adequate enough to make that big play and he had two tries but somehow he will be a lottery pick.
Everything you are saying about him can be said by tons of guys. NBA means best athlete and strongest athlete. He will be going against the best. Some players and if you live more you will see are great college players but are terrible NBA players. Most of those guys fit the mold you are describing.
I remember two college stars from UCLA that were total busts. Ed' Obannon was smart and had NBA level athleticism but he did not make it. You can call me whatever after he plays and does well but right now you are putting a lot of words out that you may have to eat if you are wrong.
Sorry people for the long posts but as much as I respect Butler's other posts, I tend to say stuff on here like I am upset but I was truly upset about how you came at me. I dont think I have ever disrespected a poster like that because I disagreed with them unless they came at me wrong. A lot of guys on here support what I am saying but somehow to Butler I am retarded. I am not tripping though I almost had a guy on my past ship want to fight me because he went to the same school as Farmar and I said Farmar needed to be traded and he sucks. Farmar did manage to almost make me look bad because he improved and then he just capped off like I thought. Farmar is nothing more than a bk up even though this guy wanted to kick my butt because I spoke the truth. I know it is hard, you know this guy. You want him to do good but thing is, you have personal interest in him. I don't.
I doubt that. I don't think Hayward's agent would block such a workout. As a matter of fact, Hayward has said that he's looking forward to working out against those players to solidify his stock.
I don't have a problem with the opinion that Babbitt is better. Nevada and Butler are two different teams though. Nevada was more of an up tempo, run and gun sort of team. Butler was a slow it down half court team. Hayward wasn't allowed to showcase his individual talents as much as Babbitt was. Hayward played within the team concept. They're honestly two different players.
Here are my questions about Babbitt... IF he's so athletic, then why wasn't he more of an impact on defense? With his wingspan and athleticism, why did I see him get beat off of the dribble consistently? He also got backed down in the post consistently. How come he averaged less than a block per game? Only one steal?
He is not a great athlete by NBA standards. He is not very quick on the perimeter, and he is not strong enough to defend NBA pfs. That said, I think he is a very talented offensive player who I predict will be a top 2 option at one point in his career. I doubt he will get much playing time if he is not a top 3 option, I agree with the I in win. He does play physical on the defensive end, and should be a good rebounder for an NBA 3.
His max vertical (leaping ability) and mobility testing results puts him in the top tier of current NBA forwards athletically.
You can compare the results yourself.
Babbitt is an awesome athlete.
The fact that he has ideal size for a SF at 6-8 3/4 with a 6-11 1/4 wingspan and is one of the greatest pure shooters (statistically) to come into the league only solidifies his status as an outstanding prospect.
I called you retarded for suggesting that Larry Bird was going to replace Danny Granger with Gordon Hayward. I mean, seriously??? Why would you even suggest that? It was dumb. Granger is our best player... One of the best wings in the NBA. You have this mental defect that tells you that Larry Bird is that focused on building the franchise around a white player. It's just untrue. That's honestly the main reason I called you out. I think there's a lot racist BS behind some of this stuff you post. I'm kind of sick of it to be honest with you.
You're posting information like you know Bird. Like you know that he's considering Hayward over Babbitt. Bird hasn't given any clues about who he's drafting. The word around here is that he's considering Avery Bradley OR a big man. Neither Hayward's or Babbitt's name is brought up that much around here. Majority of the people in Indianapolis don't want Hayward. Babbitt is still bascially unknown for the most part.
You continually make it a point to say that Hayward doesn't have NBA game and I continually make it a point to tell you that he does. You self admittedly wrote that you've only seen Hayward a few times. Now... How is it that you're able to critique his game this much then?
This is no different than when you said that Stephen Curry wouldn't be good. You criticized him for his lack of length and athleticism. You said he'd never be a starter. That'd he'd struggle getting his shot off. That he didn't have the quickness or athleticism to turn the corner against stronger and more athletic guards. That he was a backup at best. How did his rookie season turn out? You were also Ramon Sessions #1 hype guy on here last summer when he was a free-agent. What'd he do this past season?
Tezo great assessment. Dude I am doing a live mock, for real this time the pacers are still open, reply on the thread that you want them and you have them.
Ramon Sessions is a bum....
Ramon Sessions is a solid backup.
hes a bum in the trangle though.
Ramon Sessions is a solid backup.
hes a bum in the triangle though.
Butler you did not read what I wrote fully. I said it in a way that suggested that it would be retarded for Bird to pick Hayward when the only spot he could play is small forward. If you look at the mock draft it has Indiana taking Hayward at 10. Butler trying to call me a racist or suspect me of being one is stupid and low. I could also say you are being racist for throwing out about how some white player you know have such high basketball IQ like athletic African Americans dont have high Basketball IQ. Mullens and Alexander who are both white did not have high basketball IQ. The also are not getting much time in the NBA. Hayward for all he knows about the game is not NBA ready and his high basketball IQ will not make him a better prospect than other just has smart basketball player who are more athletic and have NBA bodies.
Butler I was a big support on Curry. You have me confused if you said I was against Curry. Find the post where I said anything negative about Stephon Curry.
Butler you have now called me a racist and retarded. I am thinking you are a racists. I take shots at all players and I support all player regardless of color.
You are the only one you and rbt who likes Hayward so much and you admitted to me that he would be a pick in the late teens and 20s which is around the spot for role players.
I am not going to waste my time with the Larry Bird thing because people have put out the info and if you are too blind to read it then that is on you.
Dude are serious you must be the racist because you keep trying to put that on me. I have yet to call out any poster on here saying they are racists because I am offended about their opinion.
Also in order for me to be racist I would also have issues with Babbitt and several other players I like who are all white.
The definition of racist involves all of the race not just someone that you like. If what I said was a knock against all white people than i would be racist. I said stuff about Larry Bird and Hayward.
Go ahead and add me Knicksfan7.
And another thing Sheltwon3. You were also the dude who just said Eric Bledsoe would be no worse than Jonny Flynn lol. How can you say you know ball? Those two players, other than athletic ability, aren't even similar. Flynn is so much more skilled and mature, it's not even funny. You seem to focus too much on athleticism. Athleticism is very important, but it takes more to be successful in the NBA. If that was the case, Gerald Green would be a superstar right now.
When did i say that Curry was too slow. I have been supporting Curry before you bandwagon people joined on. I told people he could play point and he would do well.
I guess the racist in you think all black people look or post alike.
I am done with you Butler
You are a coward because you got your feeling hurt about a player who will wind up a bum or a role player
Actually Sheltwon was high on Curry.
''I think what he is saying is Curry will be a top 3 talent and I can't disagree with him. I think people overlook a players ability. Curry has a decent enough vision to run point in this league. He may not be a Chris Paul but who is. He has good basketball IQ and good court vision. That is all he needs. He had to score on his team because number one he can shoot really good and he was all they had for the most part. I have seen him make plays that not many guards in the NBA can make and he will be playing with better finishers. He will be a steal at 8 to the Knicks. Everything I see about this kid says star player maybe not athlete but all nba players are not just super athletes. He will automatically raise whatever team he is on perimeter shooting and basketball IQ. You know he wont get in trouble because he is used to be around the NBA and that lifestyle. He may be small but so was Durant. In a year and some change he will have a NBA body or NBA strength;;.
I still think Sessions is a good point guard but did he get minutes and there a reason why Flynn needed play time. Unlike Hayward, Sessions has proven stuff in the league. Hayward has done nothing in the league and never will. Honestly since you made it personal, I can wait to see your post when he fails. All that talk and what.
I agree saying Bledsoe will be at least as good as Flynn was stupid, they play nothing like each otther, and Flynn is much better than Bledsoe.
I am tripping right now because I am upset sorry to the poster who know I am better than that.
Sheltwon, ButlerBulldogs never called you a racist. He only stated that there is racist BS behind your posts. Sheltwon, I think it is you who has to reread your posts b/c your posts are contradicting. I will say this about ButlerBulldogs posts on Hayward. Yes he is a little bit bias, but he is overall being pretty good. He has said in the past he sees Hayward has a very good role player in the league. He has never said he sees Hayward being a future All-Star or franchise player.
I would not take Gordon before him, no way. lol Someone always gets that race sh!t going
Wait... Hold on. I'm black. How am I racist? I'm supporting a white player. You've never heard me say anything close to being racist on here. If you have a high IQ, you have a high IQ... If you don't, you don't. I don't look at it as a black, white, Asian, European, etc thing.
"If Hayward replaces Granger I will not even acknowledge Indiana as a NBA team."
That's what you posted. Is that not retarded? Why would you post that? It's dumb. I mean, what were you suggesting? That Larry Bird is going to replace Granger with a player that's no where near as good as him just because he's white? That's what it read it like to me, because we all know Hayward isn't half of the player that Granger is.
I'm off of it though. I'm just going to let Hayward prove you wrong. It's going to take him a season or so... But I'm just going to let his play do the talking.
This is what I love about forums you don't know what someone's skin color is and can just respect what they say. Though, Tezo you did once indicate you were black when we talked about your grandmother going to the same high school as Oscar Robertson. Skin color is irrelevant I would love to see this site compare a player to a player of a different skin color. Basketball skills are colorless.
Butler look at the mock draft. Why would you draft a player at 10 and he is not a starter. I am not saying this because I am throwing stuff out there. Also Butler for all i know you could be saying you are black. This is the first time you have said you are black just now. Also I am not stupid if you say someone has racist intentions hidden in them you are saying they are racist. You can say this guy is not racist at all but have racist intentions. If you read what I wrote you could see that but like I said I will do like my homie said and be done with this argument.
knicksfan how old are you if someone tells you there is racist behind your posts they are calling you a racists. There would be no need to say that otherwise. We live in a world where there are many races and different cultural. Most truths are borderline racists to some degree. That is understood. If someone states that you have racist bs behind your posts. They are calling you racist. How else show that be taken? He said this. He implied that I was a racist just like he is accusing me of having racist intention behind what I posts.
I even mentioned as much as I dont want this to turn into a black and white thing. I guess it would appear that a black man can not talk about white players without it being racism.
You guys most be too young or not know what racists and racism mean. I would have to have problems with all white people to be considered even one of these.
Talking bad about Hayward is not considering racism.
Larry Bird has admitted to trying to find a white super star and it being good for a league that is mostly white.
They even mentioned that at the draft combine, his whole focus was on Hayward.
I am not making this stuff up.
One of these was from a live interview. He said those things.
He even mentioned that he felt disrespected if a coach put a white player on him.
If you keep up with most of the draft that Larry Birds has been with the Pacers, He has always been mentioned trying to get some white player.
Do you homework.
Your bias will be your downfall
I am a 19 year old college student. Sheltwon, I don't need an education on the world because I have my own experiences. Also, someone can act racist, and not be a racist that's what racist BS can imply as well. The way you see something as to the way I see something is totally different. You're trying to turn opinion into fact, when you necessarily can't.
Butler is Tezo that would explain everything because Tezo never liked me. I think we had some harsh disagreements and the only way to take shots at me is to say I am racist and have me and the white posters at odds with each other. Don't mention the race thing unless you are certain. Also black people can be racists toward each other or should I say prejudice. I actually dealt with more prejudice from black people than white people in my lifetime so far.
Sheltwon, I love how you're not accusing Tezo as a racist because of past disagreements. I doubt Tezo even remembers them. It amazes me that you're questioning people's young age as a way for you to be right because that doesn't mean anything when we're talking about a subject that requires research. You being older than me does not indicate you know more than me. Believe it or not there are people younger than me on this board who know more than me.
Knicksfan7 is right, there is no need to bring race into the argument. It is unnecessary to make a big deal or insult people personally over this. Someone shouldn't have to say what race they are on a forum to justify what they say.
Knickfans you can intepret they are acting racist but if they are doing something genuine racist they are racist. What you saying does not make sense. Almost everyone and every encounter with another person has prejudice in it. You dont treat everyone the same but the minute you group one race into something you are racist unless you have proof that what you say is true and even then you can still be racist but you can't be call racist for what you said but other people interpret it as so. My thing is if what you say is true Knickfans then Butler is saying that he interprets what I am saying to be racists.
What is the point in him saying so. If i was racist i would do like those internet people and just be it because i mean how you could you track me down. I am not so why is a person repeatedly saying my posts are racists and what not. What is that trying to tell me Knicksfan. Only he and rbt has said anything race related to my posts. I say stuff about black people and no one says a thing but let me say a thing about a white player and my posts are racist.
knickfan you are right because i have met old people who did not know what they are talking about all the time. My thing is you jump into something that had nothing to do with you. Older people tend to pick and choose their fights. I was called a racists first so my thing is if you see racist stuff in what I say you are probably a racist.
Knickfan this has nothing to do with you so my thing is that unless you are going to mediate that you be quiet and be on your way.
what research have you trumped me on seriously.
Everything I said is based on facts.
Thanks B-Ball fan. Personally Gordon Hayward reminds me of CJ Miles, a black man. I know comparing a white guy to a black guy.
Sheltwon, you complain that people on here don't know how to read when your last few posts are not proper english. Also, it is you, not anyone else on this forum who is bringing this whole race thing into it.
I do, personally I feel Babbitt is the most intriguing player in the draft. He could really turn out to be something special. I'd take a chance on him.
Another Sheltwon post turns into a debate about racism....yawn
Tezo, I agree with you, Lazar Hayward is going to be good.
Sheltwon I am done. If it makes you feel good, you win. Once you can realize that what you are saying is not going on we can talk about this topic again.
sheltwon, larryb bird never said he was trying to find a white superstar or a white player to the best of my knowledge. He did say years ago that he thought a white superstar would be good for the league. He said fans would like to see someone who looks like them succeed. He said this in a sit down interview where he was being asked about race, it wasnt like he brought it up out of nowhere. And the comment about him feeling offended if they pout a white guy on him, that is him just being real. Shaq said this same thing about how players feel extra embarassed if they get dunked on or d'd up by a white. guy. It's just how it is and until we see more white players who lock down on defense, that stigma will probably always exist to a certain extent.
As for him watching hayward at the combine, i read that as well. I take it with a grain of salt though becasue i seriously doubt someone spent the entire time watching bird and who he was looking at. And maybe it has more to do with hayward ebing a local guy then white. As fo right now, i dont think hayward goes lottery. I have him to the spurs at 21, so until something more substatial then this one mock putting him there at 10, im not gonna assume that represents how bird feels.
Luke Babbitt is a superb athlete with outstanding quickness and leaping ability at 6-8 3/4, 218 lbs.
A natural SF, he has the skills and athleticism to play three positions: SF, SG and even some PF. He's also the best shooter in the draft by far.
Babbitt recorded the best vertical leap of any forward in this year's draft. Max vertical 37.5 inches which is extremely impressive.
Luke Babbitt is far superior to Gordon Hayward in all aspects of the game: shooting, ball handling, driving, passing, 3-point, transition, post up, 1/2 court, creates own shot, creates for teammates, bball IQ etc. Babbitt also has the superior physical dimensions, more strength and better athleticism.
Hayward: 6-6 3/4 without shoes, 6-8 with shoes
Babbitt: 6-7 1/2 without shoes, 6-8 3/4 with shoes
Hayward: 211 lbs.
Babbitt: 218 lbs.
Hayward: 6-7 3/4
Babbitt: 6-11 1/4
Hayward: 34.5 inches
Babbitt: 37.5 inches
BENCH PRESS (strength)
Hayward: 10 reps
Babbitt: 15 reps
AGILITY (lower score is more agile)
There is no question which player is better.
I dont know if Tezo or Butler is a racist and he has not info on me to suggest that as well. The point is he had bias toward me and that player before hand. He the one with intentions. I just said what I felt. I have no bias towards him or against him. What could my bias be really. In the NBA athleticism is valued more so for you not to know this if really stupid. You try to say that my focus is on just athleticism. No it take more than athleticism and it take more than high basketball IQ and it take more than having and NBA body and it take more than just hard work. It takes a combination of all those and it also takes being in the right position to grow as a player and fit in at a role. Hayward lacks some of the key things to be an NBA player which is more about athleticism than high basketball IQ. Most players have a decent basketball IQ and their coach instruct them. Hayward will not be in a position like point guard that will take advantage of his basketball IQ unless he goes to a team that uses him that way. Small forward is not a position that necessarily needs a lot of basketball Knowledge and there are tons of players who because of their role will not showcase everything they can do.
There are more people on this site that respect my basketball knowledge than dont but obviously some of you want to dirty up my name.
Dude Sheltwon will you ever let go of this Babbit/Hayward/Larry Bird Obsession of yours. You're always like "I don't wanna bring race into this" but you're ALWAYS the first person to bring up race. Half your posts are borderline race baiting to begin with.
How is Hayward like CJ Miles. You are just throwing out black people. I did not bring up race. Tezo or Butler said my post had inside racism in them. This is the second time he accused me of such and Knickfans wants to be him buddy and butt in of something that he knows nothing about. Tezo does not like me. This is true. He can say what he wants. Also he made excuses for everything Larry Bird said that was clearly racist but I have undercover racists posts. Come on. I hope you guys on here that have sense are not falling for this.