share

all this talk about Jordan being the best ever...

joe2324
Registered User
Joined: 12/29/2012
Posts: 111
Points: 23
Offline
all this talk about Jordan being the best ever...

but, I hear nothing about Wilt. I'm not saying Jordan shouldnt be mentioned because he had an amazing career, but is Wilt not getting recognition because he didnt win as many rings as Russell? I believe Wilt one only one ring, but back in the day Wilt used to get MAULED by the opposition and he had a much weaker supporting cast earlier in his career. Wilt was probably the strongest and highest leaper of any NBA player ever. Wilt was probably the only player to ever record a quadruple double double early in his career as well. wilt could pass, shoot, steal, rebound, shoot free throws and he never got tired. His durability was right up there with Michael and Lebron. The man never broke down or got injured.

I know people bring up winning championships as a sign of greatness, but keep in mind back in the day Wilt used to get destroyed by the opposition, ten times worse than any player could imainge today and he still managed to put up INSANE numbers all across the board.
I'm sorry, I have to say greatest player ever goes to Wilt for many other reasons than I mentioned above. Jordan is a very close 2nd


BenchWarmer
Registered User
Joined: 09/02/2012
Posts: 912
Points: 1717
Offline
I think wilt had two chips

I think wilt had two chips but yes Wilt was great yet people write him off because of eras. Which is fair to an extent but here's something I wrote on Wilt, this is my perspective:

Another way to look at it, albeit not completely accurate is Wilt did it against Kareem, Kareem did it against Hakeem and Hakeem did it against Shaq.
I will do head to head comparisons in playoffs.

Wilt vs Kareem:
Met up in 70-71 western conference finals:
Wilt (34): 22.0 ppg, 18.8 rpg, 2.0 apg on 48.9 %FG
Kareem (23): 25.0 ppg, 17.4 rpg, 4.2 apg on 48.1 %FG
Kareem wins series

And again in 71-72 confernce finals:
Wilt (35):10.8 ppg, 18.8 rpg, 3.3 apg, 6 bpg* on 45.2 %FG
Kareem (24): 33.7 ppg, 17.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 5 bpg* on 45.7 %FG
Wilt wins series
*-not officially recognized

Kareem vs Hakeem:
Met up in 85-86 conference finals
Kareem (39): 27 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 3.4 apg, 2.4 bpg on 49.7%
Hakeem (23): 31.0 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.0 apg, 2.2 spg, 4.0 bpg on 52%
Hakeem wins

Hakeem vs Shaq:
Met in 94-95 finals
Hakeem (32): 32.8 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 5.5 apg, 2.0 bpg on 48.3%
Shaq (22): 28 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.5 bpg on 59.5%
Hakeem wins
This is mostly food for thought

mini_marz
mini_marz's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2010
Posts: 201
Points: 299
Offline
Nice if only ....

These head to head stats are very interesting. Kinda sucks that all these players are about ten or more years difference when they matched up. If only we could seem them match up in the primes considering your prime is what people usually measure ur greatness with

ShekiruBoom
ShekiruBoom's picture
Registered User
Joined: 07/26/2010
Posts: 420
Points: 658
Offline
think the better question is

think the better question is why isn't kareem in the convo for the best ever. Purely stats wise his career stacks up to anyone's. I think he got overshadowed by Magic but still in their early days Kareem was still the number 1 option although he did get old while Magic just got started. I also think Kareem's looks hold him back. Hes like the chris bosh of then. Who wants a bald ostrich wearing goggles to be the GOAT of basketball?

mini_marz
mini_marz's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2010
Posts: 201
Points: 299
Offline
Just what I was about to say .....

I've always felt that Kareem has been overlooked for GOAT. He has all the individual awards pretty much, rings, longevity as well as being the all time leading scorer... And maybe this may not mean much to everyone but he was prolly one of if not the most dominant high school and college player who won everywhere.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2793
Points: 1740
Offline
Wilt was absolutely dominated

Wilt was absolutely dominated by Russell in every BIG game the met in. Russell was the ultimate team first guy, Wilt was the ultimate me first guy.

Jordan went 6/6 in the finals in an era of parity and 30 team leagues. That is unbelievable, and his ability to dominate games when they mattered most will never be matched. He is the GOAT, but if you wanna talk about historic competition, look at Russell's resume over Wilts.

Tongue-Out-Like-23
Tongue-Out-Like-23's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/16/2010
Posts: 8307
Points: 11858
Offline
I don't disagree that Jordan

I don't disagree that Jordan is the GOAT but an "era of parity"? Exactly who in the Eastern Conference was good in the 90s?

Who exactly did MJ have to match-up against? Arguably the best defender (or second, if MJ is #1) of the 90s was on the same team as Jordan. The 2nd best shooting guard at the time was a shooter that didn't play much defense in Reggie Miller.

The Bulls had the best two-man combo in the league and when Rodman joined, they had the best and only Big 3 in the 90s.

I mean, aside from the Knicks (who were pretty much a one-man-team in the 90s) who else in the East was a threat? There was absolutely no parity in the 90s in terms of talent.

The Jazz were a two-man team. Hell, by the time they got out of the West, Stockton had had his final good season of his career!

The Rockets never had a 2nd option that played more than 50 games and averaged 20ppg in the entire 90s. Hell, they were never ranked in the top-10 in both offense and defense at the same time. How's that for perhaps the 2nd best team in the 90s.

There was absolutely no parity, at least none that could match-up with the greatest SG of all time, a top SF of all time, one of the best PFs of all time and the greatest coach of all time. How's that for parity?

JoeWolf1
JoeWolf1's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/28/2009
Posts: 8187
Points: 16478
Offline
Joe Dumars - Hall of Fame

Joe Dumars - Hall of Fame shooting guard- In the late 80's and early 90's getting past the Pistons was a right of passage for the Chicago Bulls. Joe Dumars was averaging between 17 and 23 points per game from 1988-1995 including 4 All-Defensive 1st teams and 1 All-Defensive 2nd team. He was the 88-89 Finals MVP and a guy MJ held to 12.5 ppg on 35% shooting in the 90-91 ECF on Chicago's way to their first title. He averaged 20 ppg on 48% shooting during the regular season that year.

Clyde Drexler - Hall of fame shooting guard/small forward - Jordan had to get past the 91-92 Trail Blazers in order to win his 2nd championship. First Ballot HOFer Cylde Drexler was coming off a season in which he averaged 25 ppg 6.7 rpg 6.7 apg 1.8 spg. Clyde was a player who was going to get his, averaging over 20 shots and 20 ppg, but despite shooting 47% from the feild and 35% from 3 during the regular season and 50% in the playoffs before the Bulls series, against Jordan, he shot 40% from FG and 15% from the feild matched up against Michael Jordan. Jordan made Clyde Drexler in-efficient scoring the basketball.

The best player in the league is often, and should be, head and shoulders above everyone else. Look at what Lebron is doing now. Who is his equal? Which great small forwards does he meet up with in the East. Luol Deng? Melo? Paul Pierce? All are very good in their own right, but they're not his equals. Who was Shaq's equal in the early 2000's? Jamal Magliore? Big Z? a 35 year old Robinson? No one. I understand what you are saying, but Jordan never failed to produce when he was matched up against the best players in the league. It would be different if he played no one and then got torched or didn't play well when he finally did play a HOF player or All-Star. This was never the case, he was the ultimate winner, he shut them down.

Look at what he did when he did get put against a great player, he spent the first 5 years of his career playing agaisnt some of the best teams in history, losing but still playing out of his mind. Those Celtic and Piston teams were incredible and extremely physical defensively, and Jordan took the punches and dropped 40,50,60 points on any given night. He paid his dues and never failed to produce, I don't think the lack of a Clyde Drexler, or Alex English on every team in the East makes what he did any less impressive. Not 1%.

He wouldn't have been stopped, just like no one would have stopped Shaq in 2001 or Lebron in 2012.

Tongue-Out-Like-23
Tongue-Out-Like-23's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/16/2010
Posts: 8307
Points: 11858
Offline
1. Joe Dumars wasn't even the

1. Joe Dumars wasn't even the best player on his own team. Hell, if it wasn't for Isaiah Thomas, he wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.

2. While Clyde Drexer was good in the 90s, it wasn't exactly Kobe vs LeBron or Durant vs LeBron as it is nowadays.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2793
Points: 1740
Offline
Oh, the NA was definitely

Oh, the NA was definitely weak in the 90s. But there were 8-9 teams in the league in the 60s. Wracking up all those titles, with the roster Russell had with him, and the fact that Wilt was really the only other player in the league vaguely on his level (And you could add Elgin Baylor to that as well) makes it more reasonable then most realize that the Celtics dominated the way they did.

Yes Jordan was a clear cut ahead of the pack in the 90s, but the fact that many teams, he had 2 three peats back to back, its pretty amazing. You don't see anyone in any other sport winning 6 titles in an 8 year spand, because the talent is so spread out and year to year its much harder to sustain that success in a 30 team league vs in an 8 team league. Maybe "parity" was the wrong word, its just the fact that he won at that high of a rate in an era where it is much less pheasible than the days of 8-9 team leagues.

IvoL
IvoL's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/08/2012
Posts: 200
Points: 317
Offline
lol

1991 finals Lakers do you know the roster?

my answer: Lakers stats PTS/G: 106.3 (13th of 27) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 99.6 (2nd of 27)
Off Rtg: 112.1 (5th of 27) ▪ Def Rtg: 105.0 (5th of 27)
Expected W-L: 59-23 (3rd of 27)

this team was a good defensive team say what about PARITY?????!!!!

Starting five: Magic, Scott, Worthy, Perkins and Divac
extra energy: A.C. Green and Terry Teagle
if you want i can show stats too

1992 finals Blazers do you know the team?

PTS/G: 111.4 (4th of 27) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 104.1 (12th of 27)
Off Rtg: 111.4 (7th of 27) ▪ Def Rtg: 104.2 (3rd of 27)
Expected W-L: 59-23 (2nd of 27)

Starting Five: Porter, Drexler, Kersey, Cliff Robinson and Buck Williams

not on the same lvl of the lakers but Cliff and Buck where good defenders on the paint, Drexler was an okay defender but an amazing player

1993 finals Suns?

PTS/G: 108.2 (1st of 27) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 103.4 (14th of 27)
Off Rtg: 111.7 (1st of 27) ▪ Def Rtg: 106.8 (16th of 27)
Expected W-L: 54-28 (5th of 27)

Good offensive team only flaw the defense

did you ever heard about a player named Kevin Johnson go check him the starting five was like this Johnson(20ppg 9.5apg and 1.9spg), Majerle(16.5ppg 4.4rpg 3.4apg), Ceballos(19.1ppg 6.5rpg), Barkley and A.C. Green(yep the same one of the lakers his stats 14.7ppg 9.2 rpg)

KJohnson was an excellent combo guard, well Brakley was Barkley and the rest of the team was good they had 2 guys from the bench that could help the team Ainge and Oliver Miller

1996 supersonics

PTS/G: 104.5 (2nd of 29) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 96.7 (8th of 29)
Off Rtg: 110.3 (8th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 102.1 (2nd of 29)
Expected W-L: 61-21 (2nd of 29)

did you know Payton was the guy asked to defend MJ

1997 and 1998 Jazz

2 man you say i think you forgot Hornacek...

Parity don't forget in the 90's on SG and SF yes MJ did play SF sometimes you had

Reggie Miller, Clyde Drexler, Mitch Richmond, Dumars, Stackhouse yes the guy that time could play, Iverson, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway(he could play sg), Latrell Sprewell, Steve Smith, Allan Houston, Chris Mullin, Glen Rice, Dominique Wilkins... now let me ask you how many good SG or SF you have in the league comparing to that era Kobe and Wade they actually stand out and SF Durant, Lebron and Carmelo... but for the future you will have Paul George, man Parity lol

Chilbert arenas
Chilbert arenas's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/22/2009
Posts: 2823
Points: 6681
Offline
I'm almost done reading a

I'm almost done reading a book on the Chamberlin Russell rivalry and Wilt is not even close to the GOAT. He wanted to quit the NBA to play go play with the globe trotters because the NBA was too physical for him. They guy was a freak in a basketball body but never loved the sport.

officerbarbrady
officerbarbrady's picture
Registered User
Joined: 09/10/2012
Posts: 52
Points: 73
Offline
Wilt is the most overrated Basketball Player Ever

People look at Wilt's stats and are immediately blown away. I understand that. People often don't realize that offensive goal-tending was legal in many of Wilt's early seasons. This means that he could take his opponents shots and get them to count as his own which really boosted his stats. Wilt is also famous for never fouling out of a game. Because he was so focused on keeping this streak alive he basically didn't play defense once he hit 5 fouls because he was so determined not to foul out which dramatically hurt his teams defense, especially in the 4th quarter and thus hurt his team's chances of winning. Wilt averaged 50ppg and 25 rpg one season yet his team only won 33 games because he was so solely focused on statistics instead of doing what it took to help his teams win ball games. Wilt measured greatness by his stats, Russell measured his greatness by wins and championships and sacrificed his own stats to help his team win. Wilt was the single most selfish player in NBA history and it is joke that anyone thinks he should be in the discussion for the greatest ever.

Tongue-Out-Like-23
Tongue-Out-Like-23's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/16/2010
Posts: 8307
Points: 11858
Offline
While I agree with some of

While I agree with some of the things you stated...

What does this even mean?
"This means that he could take his opponents shots and get them to count as his own which really boosted his stats"

If he scored on his own basket, it wasn't a point for him and if he goal tended, it didn't count as a block because they weren't kept as an official stat.

Not to mention, goaltending was disallowed in the NBA in 1958... a year before Wilt Chamberlain's rookie season. Meaning anything you were attempting to say was irrelevant.

Reeko
Registered User
Joined: 11/18/2012
Posts: 173
Points: 553
Offline
Wilt The Stilt

Was a physical specimen no doubt. Even by today's NBA standards he would have been considered an elite athlete, he was a freak of nature even more so than Lebron, especially if you consider the era he played in. Rules had to be changed because Wilt dominated the game in ways unseen before. Even Bill Russell said to Wilt "I'm probably the only person in the world who knows how good you actually are." He could do everything on the basketball court as you suggest, but what keeps him from being the GOAT was his mental makeup. He didn't lead the league in points, rebounds or assists because it was the best thing for his team at the time, he did them to show people that he could accomplish these things even if it was to the detriment of his team. In my opinion there are only a select group of players who you can even discuss being the GOAT other than Jordan and they are Bill Russel, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Larry Bird. Bird (back injuries) and Magic (HIV) had their careers end prematurely, but they used to give MJ nightmares as a youngster. You will find few if any basketball historians who would put Wilt Chamberlain in that class, not because he wasn't supremely gifted but because he didn't understand what it truly meant to be a good teammate or the sacrifices one needed to make to reach the pinnacle of his sport.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2793
Points: 1740
Offline
I think Russell (based on

I think Russell (based on accomplishments) and Lebron (based on talent, and definitely not until theres a finished body of work) are the only two in the debate. And it's a debate Jordan is winning easily right now.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2793
Points: 1740
Offline
I think Russell (based on

I think Russell (based on accomplishments) and Lebron (based on talent, and definitely not until theres a finished body of work) are the only two in the debate. And it's a debate Jordan is winning easily right now.

i'm jus so offended
i'm jus so offended's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/01/2011
Posts: 922
Points: 2053
Online
@tounge out

Well if you look at old footage and games, it wasn't necessarily just the 2 guard guarding him. It was more like the whole team. But if you want to go that route there were the likes of Joe Dumars, early Dennis Rodman, Clyde Drexler, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, John Starks (well, he tried hard at least), Isiah and Magic would check him, Dennis Johnson, The Glove would guard him in the Finals, Nique, Doc Rivers. And like I said though, mostly whole teams were tasked with trying to beat him, mostly to no avail but there were also plenty of perimiter players who absolute push overs either.

ItsVictorOladipo
ItsVictorOladipo's picture
Registered User
Joined: 08/12/2009
Posts: 2024
Points: 4671
Offline
Wilt was absolutely dominated

Wilt was absolutely dominated by Russell in every BIG game the met in. Russell was the ultimate team first guy, Wilt was the ultimate me first guy.

Jordan went 6/6 in the finals in an era of parity and 30 team leagues. That is unbelievable, and his ability to dominate games when they mattered most will never be matched. He is the GOAT, but if you wanna talk about historic competition, look at Russell's resume over Wilts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's kinda unfair, Russell was fortunate enough to play with a terrific supporting cast in Boston while Wilt played with a mediocre Warriors team at the start of his career. Nonetheless Wilt was the centerpiece of two of the greatest teams in NBA history (The 1967 76ers and the 1972 Lakers).

Wilt was a me-first guy when he had to be in San Francisco but as he matured as a player and began to have better players around him he became a more well rounded team player. With the 76ers and Lakers his defensive play, rebounding, passing and efficiency from the field were critical to their success.

To be perfectly honest I don't like to credit Wilt too much for his stats because part of the reason he put up such crazy numbers for the Warriors is because the rest of the team was so bad (see Allen Iverson, Pete Maravich, Nate Archibald, Walt Bellamy, Adrian Dantley etc) but neither do I castigate him for failing to single-handedly beat Russell and the Celtics dynasty of the 60s.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2793
Points: 1740
Offline
The Russell playing with

The Russell playing with superior competition thing is overrated. Wilt played with a lot of good players over the course of his career, and with the Lakers, he had better help than Russell. Wilt wasn't the centerpiece of the 72 Lakers, West was. And yeah, he was centerpiece in the one team in a decades time that won a title when Russell didn't.

Wilt really didn't mature that much. He became better in the late stages of his career, but could you imagine a big man being so obsessed with thats that he goes out of his way to LEAD THE LEAGUE IN ASSISTS, while costing his team. Could you imagine a player averaging 50 and 25...YES 50 AND 25, and winning only 33 games? Wilt was obsessed with stats. Wilt did win something, I'll give you that, but everyone knew how selfish he was, how never fouled out of a game so he played tolken defense all the time. But he was still dominated by Russell. Russell was like 18-2 in elimination games and 16-0 in game 7s, or something along those lines. He failed to single handidly beat Russell, not because a washed up Bob Cousy and the rest of that team was that great. He did it because he never understood what Russell did, that it was a team-first game.

IvoL
IvoL's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/08/2012
Posts: 200
Points: 317
Offline
so 11 rings

what was Russell cast comparing to Wilt?

in his 11 ring Russell had this supporting cast

Bill Sharman, bob cousy, Tom Heinsohn, Frank Ramsey, Sam Jones, K.C. Jones, John Havlicek, Bailey Howell and Larry Siegfried, but i really Respect Russell a lot because he was a leader, played for the success of the team and was so Fundamental playing the game

Well Wilt won it 2 times, but when the playoffs started he was a different player a bad one he couldn't play that well

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2793
Points: 1740
Offline
Russell played with great

Russell played with great players, I'm not doubting that. But it's not like Wilt was always playing with scrubs, and the two of them were so great, and so ahead of the rest of the league, and EVERY SINGLE TIME they matched up the playoffs, Russell dominated him.

aamir543
aamir543's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/11/2009
Posts: 5062
Points: 5541
Offline
Unrelated to the GOAT

Unrelated to the GOAT conversation, but I needed a place to post this.

Shaq's NBA finals averages

2000- 38 and 17 with 3 blocks

2001- 33, 16, and 5 with 3 blocks

2002- 36 and 12 with 3 blocks

Those are big time numbers, and his free throw percentages in all three series were under 50%, I saw one game against Indiana where he had 39 fre throws. Imagine if he made even 65% of his free throws. I swear, even though Shaq has the clutch gene and killer instinct, He's be in this conversation IF he had a better work ethic, he could've averaged 33 and 14 in that scenario.

RSS: Syndicate content