Feel free to take points if you disagree, but at least contribute to the discussion.
Everyone knows that Al Jefferson is on the trading block. And according to at least one user on this site, the Warriors are interested in him. Now I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why...
Jefferson is a good player in the right system; that system is clearly not the Warriors. Take the problems Jefferson had with the Wolves and double them when you add him on the Warriors; he's slow, cannot play transition D well, and is only an average defender. The Wolves had the 3rd fastest pace in the NBA last season; their defense was the second worst in the league, and Jefferson was a big part of that. The Warriors have the fastest pace in the NBA, and Don Nelson is likely to return; they will probably still have the fastest pace next year as well. Would Jefferson fit well with them if he didn't fit well in Minnesota?
Jefferson needs to go on a half-court oriented team, not a fast break, run and gun team. If GS trades for him, it'd be a big mistake; he has a bad contract, and if you put Maggette and Jefferson on the floor together, you might as well have two black holes who don't pass and take bad shots. What do the rest of you think?
By the way, if anyone can find a link of GS's apparent interest in Jefferson, it would be great.
while i agree jeffersons style does not translate well to GState, plain and simple they need a big man who can socre and considering their recent succes rate, they might be willing to sacrifice their style for a differnce maker like jafferson.
As for the wolves, i have no idea why they would give up on jefferson so i hope if they do shop him, they get some serious talent in return. But plain and simple, he and KLove play the same position and their skill sets do not mesh well together. Two under the basket bigs who play half court style ball and dont protect the basket well cant excel together. So the wolves probably need to pick one or the other and make some changes.
Were targeting a big and its obvious. We wanted Cuz or Favors and liked Monroe. Riley said he wants to win now but was very dissapointed when we fell out of the top 4. Hence he wanted someone specifically
Thanks, llperez, for the input; I would still have to disagree. They don't need a scoring big man in the low post; they need one who can defend the low post and still run and play transition D. If he gets all his points on put backs and dunks, that's fine, because the Warriors aren't missing offence; they're missing defense.
Jefferson is a good player on a bad team; he didn't miss too many games, and yet the T-Wolves won fewer games this year than last year because they tried to play uptempo with Flynn but also had Jefferson. The Warriors would also get worse because Jefferson's an awful passer; if they needed a black hole, they already got one in Maggette.
Kevin Love is a better trade idea; he might not be as good of a scorer, but he's a better passer and he's also cheaper.
burningflood, the player you described, a defensive oriented big who gets put backs and runs the court is pretty much exactly what they have in Andris Biedrins. Probelm is, he is not a go to scorer. Jefferson would compliment him great. And just because the warriors score a lot of points does not mean it would translate well to the post season where you need to have some half court weapons. I htink jefferson would fit great there.
However, this is all hypothetical and i have not heard anyhting about the warriors looking to make trades or jefferson going there in particular.
i love golden state thats my team best backcourt in th league
Biedrins is simply not big enough to defend the elite low post scorers in the league. Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Carlos Boozer--those types can overpower him simply because he isn't big enough and strong enough. He gets outmuscled and outworked.
Nateoak, you're a Warriors fan...what do you think about Biedrins's defensive ability?
It's a tradeoff, I think...in order to be big enough to truly defend the post, you have to lose some mobility, quickness, and ability to run the floor...but if they do have someone who could do all of those things, along with a defensive wing, they'd be a much better team.
Golden state definitely doesn't have the best backcourt in the league. Points don't make them the best so dont be naive. The best big for golden state would be Dwight Howard. He'll run and finish and block shots and every so often he'll do something good in an isolation situation. Point is he won't create an issue of holding the ball in the post for too long. Al Jefferson has tunnel vision most definitely as he only averaged 1.8 assists per game. Dwight averages that exact same number of assists but orlandos offense is a multiple pass system so he doesn't get alot of assists. Jefferson doesnt run well at all and he needs to be in a half court oriented offense to be effective. And let's face it don Nelson is coaching. His teams play a certain way and Jefferson won't work. The biggest guy Nelson has had was Dirk and he's just a huge shooting guard essentially. He had dampier in Dallas and that very same tear he stepped down because he and dampier weren't 'clicking' the way dampier and Avery johnson were. Nelson needs either a boozer/bosh type guy or Dwight Howard but I'm sure he'll stick with what he's got going on. That would be a bad move for gs.
After posting on many of the same posts as you have I've come to realize that your perception of the way the NBA and basketball in general is unfortunately completely skewed. It's one thing to be opinionated and have a good basis for what you are talking about but from what i've seen it's not even practical. Sorry I've seen too many things on your threads that make me just completely go blank due to their lack of credibility and validity. Not to mention you try to almost impose your opinion on someone by going at them directly in an attempt to get them to agree with you. Let what you know do the talking, but like I've said, that's not doing any talking for you.
Thank you sacphil; I agree completely with what you said. I am a big GS fan, but Monta and Steph cannot truly coexist together...they're too small and give up too much defensively when they're both in. Plus, Monta causes chemistry issues; he wants to be the leader of the team, but Steph is the player that the other players like to play with...
Dwight would be perfect in Golden State because he's a great defender and is athletic enough and conditioned enough to play transition D. But it's impossible to get Dwight, even if you offered your first round pick for every year for the next decade...Boozer/Bosh/Amare would be good fits because of their face up game, which would allow for a defensive minded big to focus only on defense...I doubt GS is in the running for any one of those players, though. And GS would still have to somehow find a better defensive big, or get Biedrins to bulk up.
*edit: when I said I agree with everything you said, I meant in terms of basketball; I disagree with your notion of llperez. He's a good contributor.
Sorry llperez... I just realized you're a laker fan. It all makes sense now
sacphil, you call me out for not being rational, but you dont point out one single thing as to why. If you want to debate, then give reasons. If you just want to bash me, then i can care less. I have plenty of respect around here from many very knowledgable fans.
To be honest, the only thing i remember about you was the debate we had on comparing basketball from the late 80's and early 90's to now. You got disrespectful and said i must not have watched ball back then. You then later said you were born in 1989 witch i found pretty hypocritical and humorous.
Understandable burningflood. You probably haven't posted enough on the same posts as llperez but yeah Dwight won't be leaving for all his career more than likely. I do feel that both Ellis and curry wouldn't be nearly as effective on teams that played any other way unless they were to be brought off the bench plainly for offensive punch. They do give up too much defensively. Also those other players you mentioned I don't think would work simply because they aren't elite level defenders. Offensively they'd do great but Dwight would make it where you'd fear going to the rim. As for golden state I think that they'll need to change their entire future plans whatever they may be. Starting in the front office then coaching and then players
I think the irrational Laker fan is DNYCE, or his buddy the Laker hater gay fish(?). llperez isn't irrational...well, most of the time, he isn't. I haven't posted on a lot of the threads, but I generally tend to read them.
Yeah, Boozer/Bosh/Amare aren't known for their defense. That's why a legit defensive big man, a Kendrick Perkins build that could actually run the floor, would be great. I think Favors could be that type of defensive guy, which is why I'm hoping the Warriors somehow trade up to the 3rd pick to get him...
I think Curry would be great in a PG-centric system; he has great bball-iq, makes great passes, is a natural leader, and gets his teammates involved; he might not be seem as good in the triangle, though he can knock down the open shot ala Derek Fisher. Monta is good as an instant offense type player, or with a big PG guarding the SGs next to him (Baron and Monta backcourt).
But yes, management's going to be out the door soon; hopefully Ellison buys the team and becomes the next Mark Cuban in terms of willingness to spend cash.
Llperez I'm sorry to go to points for verification but you have 5000 posts compared to Less than 3000 points. When you post that often you get respected as the guy that has been here forever like AC green and Kevin Willis but not for your ability unfortunately. Like I said you're a laker fan which is something I didn't realize until I saw your picture for your account and it makes sense. I don't know if I've ever met a laker fan that actually had some respectable know how when it comes to basketball. The guy DNYCE is "respected" around here as the guy with nearly -40000 points. It's more recognition that respect. Sorry
wow, I asked you to point out why im off on things and you brought up points to prove a point about basketball knowlege. You lose even more credibility in my book. LOL
I brought up points to show that I'm obviously not the only person who disagrees with you. Apparently 2507 times other people have disagreed with something you have said to the point where they took a point from you. I don't know how else to put it. I mean your reasoning for the warriors acquiring Jefferson was 'they need a big plain and simple." I'm guessing it doesn't matter who? Like burningflood says, he stops offensive flow and had good scoring (and only scoring numbers) on a bad team. If you knew as much as you claim you'd realize that don nelson has coached this up an down tempo without a true big or a guy such as Jefferson ALL HIS CAREER. what maes you believe that he'll all of a sudden change? The warriors have stuck with Nelson because for nearly 2 decades they had no history of winning. Then Nelson cones sling and they make it to the pkayoffs and even win a series against a 67 win Dallas team no less. So the warriors organization thought it would be a good idea to stick with that gameplan hoping they could win and sell tickets. The winning stopped after that season and hasn't been happening fir them since that season. If they were going to change their style they wouldve either fired Nelson or told him to step down but they haven't. It makes ABSOLUTELY no sense for them to get him or even attempt getting him. As for the 'talent' they have. I feel like both curry and Ellis are going through prolonged tryouts in golden state to win a spot on a team that will pay them more money. Unless they were to be off the bench and used fir instant scoring they won't be effective. Kevin Martin is able to be instant offense as a starter because f his build. He's long and tall so he starts because at least on defense he's not giving up a whole lot. Curry and Ellis are both short and curry isn't athletic at all. I'd love either one off my bench fir scoring but wouldn't want either starting if I was trying to win a championship. Jefferson makes no sense here.
First of all, i appreciate you copming at me with actual argument instead of just saying im wrong becuase points say so. Points are stupid. I have taken close to 500 points away from myself. Plese do yourself a favor and get rid of the immature idea points mean something.
Now, as for jefferson, when was the last ime Don Nelson won something? seriously, when did don's full court uptempo style win anything? He is a very good coach who takes bad teams and makes them relevant. However, if you want to win in the playoffs when it counts, nelson is not exactly the guy who you should follow. Playoff basketball always gets into a half court style sooner or later. You need a go to big man in that situation. SOmeone to get to the free throw line and get easy buckets. The warriors dont have that. If you think they are set talent wise and have everything figured out with their 20+ wins, then you really need some more time watching ball. Or maybe just get more points, that will make you correct.
Wow so you really don't pay attention. I saud 'takent' because theyvdibt have any. I referred to ellsia nd curry as their 'talent' but they really aren't that great. I'm telling you that you can't integrate a guy who you would have to get the ball to into your system and make it to the playoffs. Even if they were more half court oriented they wouldn't make it in with him. He has tunnel vision averaging just 1.8 assists a game. Yes he scored 20 a game but the twolves got their asses handed to them in more than half the games he scored 20 in. He's one of the better 1 on 1 centers (so to speak) but he's not the answer for golden state. Like I saud with their current nucleus there are no answers. You can talk about pkayoffs until you actually get there by the way. The warriors wouldn't get there because Jefferson isn't that good of a player. On a team where he is the 3 option or so then he'd be lethal but when he's 1 or 2, no good
im not sure of what you just said to be honest.
1-the wolves sucked when jefferson scored? yes, they are a &$#%#&@! team. Please dont act like his stats are a direct refelction of what the wolves did.
2-"I saud 'takent' because theyvdibt have any." - i honestly have no idea what you mean here.
3-"I'm telling you that you can't integrate a guy who you would have to get the ball to into your system and make it to the playoffs." bullshit. Teams would love to have a big man they can post up and play off of. If you cant figure how to incorporate a big man in your offense then you suck as a teamate/coach.
you are basically just rambling a bunch of stuff. Nothing you say makes you sound smart. Maybe if you get some more points i will believe you.
1-The Wolves sucked when Jefferson scored.
I'd check to see if he scored at an efficient pace in those games where he scored large numbers of points, or if he just had high usage, chucked up a bunch of shots, and happened to make some of them, while taking away better looks from his teammates.
2-"I saud 'takent' because theyvdibt have any." - i honestly have no idea what you mean here.
I think he meant, "I said 'talent' because they didn't have any," referring to the idea that Golden State has a roster devoid of talent, that Ellis and Curry are not talented, and that Jefferson wouldn't fit because he isn't considered a talent in a system like Golden State's, and that Jefferson just isn't that great of a player.
3-Integrating a big man into the offense
Jefferson's the kind of guy that you integrate by running plays for--plays where he promptly tries to take on the double team and scores at a lower rate while the other players stand around, getting ready to run back on defense. That's the kind of player that he is...he believes that he's a first option, and so does not pass out of the double team. Besides, offense is only half the game. If you were to integrate Jefferson on offense to offset his excessive defensive woes in the run and gun game, you'd have to replace almost every player on the GS roster with players that play well in half court sets. And you'd have to figure out how to deal with faster teams, teams against which Jefferson becomes a big liability.
I actually disagree with both of you.
Sacphil, I think that Curry is a talent; sure, he might not be particularly athletic, but neither is Nash, and Curry has the shot and the IQ of a Nash. Maybe the bar is set rather high, but I think that Curry has the right character, the right mentality, and the right work ethic to pull it off. Ellis, on the other hand, is a talent in the right situation; in GS, however, he does not have the right situation. If Ellis could be shipped off to Philly, for example, I think that the Holiday-Ellis backcourt doesn't have too much of a defensive problem. Ellis matches up with opposing PGs, and Holiday guards the SGs. Holiday is a good defender, and Ellis can guard well if he isn't outmatched in terms of size.
Llperez, I'd love it if the Warriors even made the playoffs, let alone won anything there. That's a problem that we haven't encountered often...the Warriors have made the playoffs just once in the last 16 years, and so even sniffing the playoffs in the ultracompetitive Western Conference would make me somewhat happy. And about the 20+ wins...last year was just a really, really bad year for the Warriors in terms of injury. We had multiple games where we dressed the league minimum of players, 3 of whom were D-Leaguers who stuck on the roster (Hunter, Tolliver, Williams)...our big men were injured early and often (Randolph, Wright, Biedrins, Turiaf) to the point where scrubs like Devean George had to play big minutes...I think that we were a 35-38 win team at least last year, and it all went downhill precisely because of injuries...we're not quite as bad as our record indicated. Jefferson can't carry the team, as shown in Minnesota; in fact, I think he'd make us even worse, because he would either be playing limited minutes or he would be slowing down the pace and making the other players ineffective. At the very worst, he could make the team question its identity--like the 76ers or the T-Wolves this year. The two different playing styles don't mesh together at all.
Oh, and a guy who can get to the free throw line and get easy buckets? Mr.Corey Maggette is such a player...and he's a black hole on offence and a liability on defense. Hm...is Jefferson any better, just because he is 'an elite low post scorer' if he has the same problems? Maybe, but how many more wins would he generate?
burningflood, thank you for bringing actual bball talk to the table instead of just trashing me and saying my opinion doesnt count because im a laker fan lacking points.
as for your talk, i will say this. the warriors have some very serious things going for them. That left handed dude who joined them late in the season is a serious threat. He is much more than just the product of the warriors system or late season flexibility for rookies. That guy can play. The warriors have plenty of offense and need defense. There are a number of ways to approach that. Personlly, depending on what they would have to give up, jefferson would be a solid addition. Even though he requires the team to slow down, doesnt mean the team always has to slow down. Bedrins could still run and they could still be primarily a transition team. Jefferson could be the the other option when the game slows down and they dont have to make everything fit him.
Warriors have a great backcourt and i cant see how any good coach couldnt figure out a way to incorparate a quality big man like jefferson. Again, a lot of this depends on what we are talking about them giving up since this is a hypothetical trade.
wut backcourt is better
Do you mean Reggie Williams? We signed him to another year, and Don Nelson, who I trust as an evaluator of talent if nothing else, did say that the kid could be special...
Regarding Jefferson, I think the general consensus would be something like Jefferson, 4th pick for Randolph, Ellis and the 6th pick. I think that's too much to give up, unless we're swinging Jefferson to some other team. We would also need to draft a wing in the second round...Lance Stephenson, perhaps?
yues, reggie williams. i watched him a ton down the stretch. He is a knock down shooter and has above average ball handling ability. I was surprised when i heard he resigned with the wariors because he signed for damn near minimium when i thought he had already proven he was a legit up and coming prospect. His shooting and ball handling are both very solid.
as for jefferson, we can butt heads till the cows come home, i think he would be a good fit for the warriors. Im not gonna get into whether the warriors should trade ellis, becuase that is all just random rumor talk that would change the whole complextion of thier team.
Llperez is a good contributor. No need to come at him like that man.
Anyway, I think Al Jefferson is good enough to change the system around. He has shown he can produce, but will the Warriors be willing to do it? They're team is set up to run, even if Nelson isn't the coach. They'd have to clean house probably, and it would take time to find teams that would take most of the contracts on that team. Would they be willing to go through all that just to get Jefferson to fit into their system to be the best team they could be? That's what it comes down to.
The Wolves would never take on Monta Ellis. As someone who lives in the TC and regularly attends pre game meeting with Kahn and Freddie, they don't want undersized guys, ie: Ellis. They do however like Randolph, and a package of him and the 6th pick would probably get the trade done. No way they take on Ellis though, they want players with size and length.
saying al jefferson is a bad defender and is going to get worse if he goes to golden state because they play faster isn't a very good point......you can say the same about 95% of the players in the nba.... the faster you play on offense the worst you will be on defense, thats common sense because you can't get back and get set.fact is a team is going to be bottom feeders if you play such an uptempo game. the players are too skilled not to pick you apart. the only team it works for is pheonix. thats because they arguably the point guard with the best court vision in the nba in steve nash and he can find open players to knock down the open shots.and they have amare who is a terror down low every 2nd game or so. and they have great shooters. as long as you have don nelson as the coach.the team isn;t goin far, and regarldess of who you add they're goin to be exposed on defense because of the system thats played. yes its fun and entertaining to watch but its never going to translate to a significant playoff run.
BlancoDiablo, I'm glad that you think this trade couldn't happen; I'm kind of hoping that it wouldn't either. I'd much rather prefer GS trying to trade with NJ for the 3rd pick than make a deal for Al Jefferson...
To ricks17, that's exactly the point...95% of the players will get relatively worse defensively, but maybe 40% of those players will still be a defensive upgrade over some of the guys the Warriors already have. And some of these players that get worse defensively might just get slightly worse; Jefferson, on the other hand, would get dramatically worse.
I think Mr. 6000 summed it up perfectly; Jefferson plays one style, GS plays another. If they traded for him, they'd have to figure out which style they wanted to play...players like Monta and Morrow and Biedrins are there for the run and gun game, so if they wanted Jefferson to excel, they'd have to trade away most of the roster...The question, then, would be if Jefferson is worth all that. And I think that he isn't.