After watching several summer league games did Burke,MCW, Adams go too early and Olynyk too late?
Considering summer league performances , especially very good consistant perfomances, do you guys agree Burke (horrendous fg per), MCW (turnover machine), Adams (little impact) may have been picked too early vs a stud like Olynyk so far?? Is Solomon Hill looking like a serious steal?
Also Oliadipo has surprised me in being able to decently run a team. His defense is of course fabulous and his offense looks alot better. He looks like he knows what he is doing, instead of looking at times lost playing in Indiana.
Going back to the subject, what about Burkes whose lack of size and great speed is killing his ability to make shots vs nba calibre talent?? The kid has to get his scoring or else the rest of his game seems to suffer. He seems disinterest to pass, and do anything else much. MCW has some decent stats, but man he is wild out there. Making bad passes, getting his pockets picked, not consistent with his jump shot. That lack of top level quickness could be a nightmare come true. Adams did kill measurements/drill day, but what happens when you apply it to a game?? He is rebounding 6 or 7 a game, for a guy with his athleticism, quickness, strength and body that should be rebounding north of 10. Maye he doesn't have as good as instincts as people thought. (look at Fab Melo for reference)
And the most impressive player so far has been Kelly Olynyk. Moves very well for a 7ft guy, high iq, right place at the right time, great at anticipating (both ends), fundementals, passing , multi array of scoring and best is that when he is on the floor, the celts are in the plus. He isn't shooting 3's all that great (30-35 per) but his 2 point fg percentage is off the chart (60-70 per). It looks like he can't miss inside the three point line. I thought he was soft and defense was going to be a major problem , but he will battle, elbows, box out and the guys who he faced, have really bad scoring efficiency. I know he won't be no kg, but as long as he takes care of his man, what else can you ask for.
Olynyk looks like he should of gone ahead vs these other guys listed (except oliadipo) , and i predict will also have a better career than Zeller. Thoughts?
It's summer league... Remember when DRose struggled?
yes some like d rose have struggled , where others like Joe Forte had a few amazing games and where is he now?
But these games are meaningful. They mean camp invites for some and a good projection in how they will play in the nba.
Most of the times, the ones that stuff their stats and consistently produced have gone to have good nba careers. Its a hit or miss for those that struggled
Josh Selby averaged 24 a game in the Vegas Summer League last season. He scored 20 total points the entire season. Theory Debunked....
No, not theory debunked. He did not categorical stating 'will always' he said "most of the time". Heaps of people are pointing out the flaw story or player who either struggled or played well and did the opposite in the league; example Rose and Selby. We bring up these because they are rarer examples. We don't bring up all the player who played well in the summer league and had nice NBA careers or those who struggled and are now out of the league because they are in the majority and simply to many. I think his statement is more accurate than not.
Miles Plumlee for MVP! Obviously good players usually play good and bad players usually don't. That is an accurate statement. However he is trying to use that statement to say Olynyk should have been picked over Burke. You can't use generalizations like that because while "most of the time" they are true...it isn't a sure bet either way.
Michael Beasley was the next carmelo anthony based on his summer league games.
Derrick Rose -- Trey Burke
FG% 29% -- 21%
FT% 64% -- 80%
RBD 4.0 -- 4.3
AST 5.5 -- 3.7
STL 2.0 -- 0.3
PTS 9.5 -- 9.0
Yes Rose struggled, but his stats still look better than Burkes. The only category Burke really shines at over Rose is free throw percentage.
Burke is shooting 9/42 from the field and 8/10 from the free throw. He's almost made more free throws than shots...that's just crazy. If it wasn't for Burkes efficient free throw shooting he'd only be averaging 6.3 points a game on shots alone.
Shoot, Olynyk has a good chance to end up better than that other canadian who was drafted this year.
i agree. Last game vs the rockets, he looked gassed playing lots of min 4 games in a row but still was able to score 19 points (7-14), 10 rebounds, a couple of assists. At his best so far you get game 1, scoring 25 points and he could of scored alot more if he was more aggressive.
7 ft guys with his skills, anticipation, mobility, motor don't grow on trees.
Adams and MCW were picked on potential so what they do in the summer league or even much of their rookie seasons isn't going to be the story of their careers. Everybody knew Olynyk was more NBA ready than many of the prospects that is why some people thought OKC should have taken him over Adams who is clearly a project.
A couple summer league games don't mean anything in the long run. Olynyk won't be putting up 20 a game when he is guarded by legit defenders like Roy Hibbert or Tyson Chandler. Burke hasn't been hitting his shot but it isn't like he forgot how to shoot once he got drafted he is just in a cold streak. Overreactions are the norm when it comes to summer league because it has been a while since we have gotten to watch hoops. My advice is just so sit back and enjoy the games and don't read too much into them and start trying to redraft before any of these guys play a single NBA minute.
Hibbert, Chandler? Are you serious. First Olynyk is a PF in the nba. Second those guys can guard him all they want, he will just stay in the perimeter and nail mid range jumpers all day. And if they want to come out he will drive past them.
Defensively he will have problems with hibbert bc he is 10-15 pounds of strength away from being easily pushed, but again he won't be guarding or playing against them. It's more like against Ibaka, David West, David Lee's of the world. Guys who he has 2 to 3 inches of height advantage.
I'm not stating he will dominate these nba players, but he def has important advantages over them already to do well and also not get burned.
Do you see the C next to Olynyk?....that stands for center. Who is going to play center for the Celtics....I can see a lot of them going "small" with the 7 foot Olynyk at center and Jeff Green at PF. They will really be able to stretch the defense with that lineup. You were raving about his post moves but they won't work on disciplined defenders who won't go for his fakes. He will be a decent 3 point shooter but I would imagine the majority of his points will come from midrange jumpshots. He will pretty much be like Chris Bosh (best case scenario) on offense and if I recall he didn't exactly light Hibbert up when he averaged 11 PPG in the Eastern conference finals.
It is Summer League, who cares?
josh selby miracle performances proves nothing.
All the guy did was chuck the ball vs Olynyk who has complete stats. Selby also is a 6'2 sg vs Olynyk a 7ft stretch pf.
Selby only college freshman experience vs Olynyk 4 years.
Most important to me is chucker vs all around stats and consistent performer
Selby shot 56% from the field and 64% from 3 during that summer league run so you can call him a chucker but that efficiency was off the charts.
Olynyk was also a junior who only actually played 2 seasons at Gonzaga. You would think the guy with more potential would usually be the less experienced player anyway so I am not sure what you are even getting at?
Why don't you just make something else up now?
I wouldn't call Selby's performances "miracles". The dude was the top ranked player coming out of high school by Rivals, even ahead of Kyrie. It isn't by chance that Josh Selby dominated in the Summer League. He just hasn't found a niche for himself in the league.
After only 1 year of college and mediocre stats, then coming out of college shows me the kind of decision making skills he has.
Not everybody is KG or Lebron james. I mean 6'2 shooting guards are at huge odds to succeed in the nba.
You are missing my point....I am not trying to say Selby is great. I am saying that the summer league isn't that difficult to dominate. I am also saying that it isn't a big deal if you don't dominate. My message is that people put too much stock in the summer league games.
you are missing my point that it takes more things to consider on top of 4 or 5 great summer league games.
I'm not going to deny selby did great last year. He was co mvp after all. But what was his history?? What consistency has he proven so far?? What is his size, skills, teamwork/all around game capability??
So outside of some nice string of summer games where he was mainly chucking the ball, he was not being a good team player. He didn't fully learn team concept/structure or doesn't care to. His size is of a disadvantage for his position.
You would prob use Harangody as another example of a solid summer league performance. But he is a 6'6 pf with lack of good quickness or athleticism. Just the height alone for his position, what is his chances to succeed in the nba??
Dude just look at the name of your original post. "After watching several summer league games did Burke,MCW, Adams go too early and Olynyk too late?"
You are missing your own point at this point.
No. Iam pointing out a diff between a guy like oly doing well in the summer league and selby doing well and why one is going to play in the nba and why one is at huge odds to make it in.
You tell me a list of guys with good or standard size/skills for their position , consistent and good summer league stats that have failed in the nba. Than ur example to debunk will make more sense
First of all I am not saying Olynyk will fail in the NBA. I am saying he won't take the league by storm as he did the summer league. Your initial claim of him playing so well in the summer league means he should have been drafted over Trey Burke is what has made me so argumentative.
Plenty of big skilled rookies have played great in the summer league to go on to have quite careers though. Derrick Character comes to mind...in 2010 he averaged 15.4 and 8.6 boards shooting 60 % for the Lakers summer league team. I remember Anthony Randolph doing a lot of damage in the summer league as well. Joe Alexander and Alando Tucker are some more guys who were really great college players who dominated the summer league without ever making noise in the NBA (not to say Olynyk won't but I am just to providing names to prove you wrong).
All I am saying is that Olynyk averaging 19 and 8 is the same as Selby averaging 24 a game because it is in the summer league. One guy is the better prospect because of his skill set and mindset for sure but summer league production is a very small factor in the equation of what makes a good NBA player.
Here is an interesting article on the Celtics summer league that shows that it wasn't all perfection from Olynyk in Orlando and this person clearly has more invested in Celtics hoops than I do.
Joe alexandre and tucker both lacked a consistent j Tucker for a sg had weak handles. So a sg with weak handles and shot, how is he going to play in the nba?
I stated history, size, skills standard for their positions comparison.
I agree Olynyk will have his way on the perimeter, but for as talented as he is what is he going to do when his jumpshot isn't falling? He can't outmuscle anyone and his paint game is lacking.
The guy has some of the best post moves ive seen in a long while.
This post is ignorant.
To answer your four questions: maybe, maybe, maybe, and maybe.
I know, I know..."It is only the Summer League"...But you cannot take for granted how great it actually is if you want a first look at some of the young guys in the NBA. It may not determine a player's entire career, but it is still very useful if you want to learn about some of the new players on your favorite team. Some players' Summer League performances may not match up to their NBA performances, but there is just as many players that have Summer League performances that correlate to their NBA careers.
So you are saying it is a toss up therefore making it practically irrelevant in determining a players long term NBA success?
"No, not theory debunked. He did not categorical stating 'will always' he said "most of the time". Heaps of people are pointing out the flaw story or player who either struggled or played well and did the opposite in the league; example Rose and Selby. We bring up these because they are rarer examples. We don't bring up all the player who played well in the summer league and had nice NBA careers or those who struggled and are now out of the league because they are in the majority and simply to many. I think his statement is more accurate than not."
Exactly. People consider these extreme examples as the truth, and say who cares. Like i said, teams do care and so do some players whose career is dependent on these games.
And performing well is better than performing bad. Teams usually lack structure and chemistry but i've seen Olynyk play with structure on the fly. He will set picks to free guys so they can get passes, set picks to open up driving lanes, on offense make excellent passes , not force shots and just knows what he is doing out there. I guess having a dad for a coach can really help accelarate your game
Some players careers do depend on the summer league games but it isn't any of the guys we are talking about because they are first round picks with guaranteed contracts. I know the C's have other options at Center but I see Olynyk playing a lot of those minutes.
I along with many of the people who know the sport gauge position more by who you can guard than by what you do on offense. If teams like Miami decide to play LeBron at PF do you think Kelly will be guarding him as he bring the ball up the court? I think he will be guarding opposing centers more than PFs because the trend in the league is to go small and he doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard many guys like Melo or Thad Young.
"Olynyk, at 234 pounds, averaged 17.8 points and 7.3 rebounds in 32 games last season. Iverson, at 255 pounds, averaged 14.2 points and 9.8 rebounds in 35 games last season. Before drafting them, the Celtics had one center on their roster for next season: Fab Melo.
As for Olynyk, who will wear No. 41, Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge said he believes the long-haired Canadian is more power forward than center, though Olynyk can play center at times."
Tim Duncan is considered the best power forward of all time but how much PF has he really played the last few years. The majority of his minutes have come at center because teams go small and he has the skill set to play either position.
Ainge won't be coaching the team so he won't have much of a say in the rotation that Stevens uses. Olynyk will be a solid pro because he is a skilled big guy but everyone needs to calm down on praising him off of a couple summer league games.
Burke and adams were taken too high, it has nothing to do with their summer league performance, rather there NBA skill set. Also burke and adams both seem to think they're a little better than they are.
Adams for sure. The guys instincts and iq to me is not above avg. Drummonds iq is avg but he has top notch instincts and of course beast body.
Burke after his excellent tournament i thought would be at least just as good. But he is struggling. For some guys the line from college to the nba is thin , but for others it is thick, very thick. The size and lack of elite quickness could hamper what he wants to do.
Do you see the C next to Olynyk?....that stands for center. Who is going to play center for the Celtics....I can see a lot of them going "small" with the 7 foot Olynyk at center and Jeff Green at PF. They will really be able to stretch the defense with that lineup. You were raving about his post moves but they won't work on disciplined defenders who won't go for his fakes. He will be a decent 3 point shooter but I would imagine the majority of his points will come from midrange jumpshots. He will pretty much be like Chris Bosh (best case scenario) on offense and if I recall he didn't exactly light Hibbert up when he averaged 11 PPG in the Eastern conference finals."
Ainge has said he will play pf in the NBA. You really don't know much about the celtics do you?.
Do you know who Sullinger is?? He started C several games last year and did a great job. Also they have Humphries who would be a better C than Olynyk. NBA.com or not just bc you are 7ft doesn't mean you are auto a C
Olynyk is a stud.
Olynyk is good but he will now "have his way" with chandler or Hibbert on the outside. He might hit a jumper or two but players a just and its not like those two players have feet of stone. They know how to get out and guard and they can slide their feet quick enough to stop him from driving. Every year some people go over board with NBA summer leauge stats. Burke will be ok, he's getting the shots he wants but they just aren't falling, we have all seen him for seasons to know he can shoot so calm down.
for me its a strecth to compare chandlers defense to hibbert. Hibbert does well at help defense and one on one. Chandler is decent at one on one and excel mostly at help defense. If olynk went up against either he would have a harder time scoring on hibbert. You can get a decent number of point against chandler if you put your body into him and add a couple movers on him.
I'm not stating olynyk will dominate these guys or have his way right away. But he has an advanced inside outside game that will be a problem for guys guarding him.
Bigger guys are usually slower, so he will make them come out or drive past them. He has excellent handles for a big guy.
When you have a smaller guy on him, he will either shoot over them or post them up. His post moves/footwork/fakes are also advanced. You can see shades of Al Jefferson/Mchale the way he will fake you out multiple times and get you to leave your feet.
Good defensive players don't leave their feet to block a shot until you do..that was a point I made earlier. He was also determined to be one of the most NBA ready players in the draft due to his skills and lack of athleticism. His ceiling isn't that high and that is why he wasn't a top 10 pick in a weak draft.
Dirk is probably the best shooting 7 footer of all time and a lot of people have compared Kelly to him....but how many times do you really see Dirk getting around anybody and going all the way to the basket...not that often...he relies heavily on that jumpshot and awkward fadeaways because he doesn't have the quickness, explosion or strength to consistently get all the way to the rack and finish. Kelly could be a poor mans Dirk and maybe if he is really as skilled as he is showing against the summer league competition he will be a future league MVP.....HA
As tempting as it is to make predictions over summer league, performance there (good or bad) has shown to have 0 correlation to NBA play. Just a fun pickup game.
To the original topic of this post; No, Olynyk should not have been drafted higher. He is the oldest of those players. Olynyk is also very skilled and NBA ready though may need more strength.
Adams, who is the most questionable, is far more athletic, and 3 years younger. That "P" word makes him a good pick.
Bruke's jumper just isn't falling.
MCW is also kinda raw. However, how often do 6'6 true PGs with that type athletism come along?
Bottom line: NO, Oylnyk should not have been drafted over any of those guys.
It looks like I'll probably eat my words on Olynyk. Oh, well.
MCW is doing exactly what I thought. I like him. He's playing a little crazy, but he's filling up a stat sheet (both negative and positive). A lot of young PG's only play well uptempo, but he already knows how the half court pace works. If he learns to shoot, the world is his.
Olynyk is a polished offensive player with a 7 foot frame and a good head on his shoulders, and there is a lot to like about what he's done in Summer League. I honestly think he'll get the minutes in Boston to make the All-Rookie 1st team. He has played great this past week, but I also don't think his stellar play warrants throwing other guys under the bus as foolish draft picks.
Adams has shown improvement since the end of the NCAA season. He's a project and no one expected him to drop 20 during the summer, potential is a factor in draft stock too, not just picking the guy who can hit the ground running and produce the most during his rookie season. On the bright size Adams has scored more points on better shooting from the feild and from the stripe than he did in college. He's doing this against better competition too, He's topped 10 points the last two games in a row, something he only accomplished once during his freshman season at Pitt against the power houses of Deleware State and Bethune Cookman. Adams hasn't made a huge impact, but he's been more productive and efficient against European veterans and guys who will be on NBA rosters than he was against NCAA compeition. I think that's a great sign to his development. He's 19 been playing ball for 5 years or so and is giving you 8.7 ppg 5.7 rpg on 60+/60+ against the best competition he's ever faced. Nothing to scoff at.
MCW is going to be fine, he's playing out of his comfort zone, but has been very solid defensively, and showing the confidence necessary to break through rookie walls and bumps in the road. He's averaging nearly 5 rpg 2 steals per game and 7.3 assists, and although he's been inefficient I like the confidence and he's shown his size and athletic ability will allow him to get to the rack at the next level, he's not going to have to be the leading scorer in an NBA uniform, so I suspect his efficiency will go up and his passing will benefit his teammates.
Burke has struggled too, but he's another high confidence guy who is willing to keep playing his game throughout rough spells. Remember, these guys get 3 days to practice before they start playing games together and by the time the pre-season rolls around I suspect you'll see a much more refinded version of Burke.
Luke Harangody was a 16.6 ppg 6.6 rpg 47/50/77 summer league performer in 2010 while Greg Monroe put up an underwhelming 7.75 ppg 4.8 rpg on a weak 40% shooting from the feild. Luke Harangody was not a steal, and Greg Monroe was not drafted too early.
Way, way, way too early to start declaring who should have been picked higher or lower. Small sample size. Some guys were shooting the ball well this week and others weren't. Some players adapt quickly to the pro game some take much longer. It's hard to judge long term prospects on a week of basketball. Really not a ton of cohesion on the floor because the rosters are a jumbled group of players that have had little time to work together.
Olynyk has impressed me with his work ethic on the defensive end. He will never be a really good defender in the league but he has hustled his butt off in the games I watched and actually made a positive impact defensively by getting his hands on a lot of loose balls and picking up a few steals. His offense was highly efficient in college and it showed in the summer league. I'm not really surprised by anything he did offensively this week. I think a lot of people overlooked how fundamentally sound he is in the post and instead had him labeled as mainly a perimeter player. His post game will only get better as he gains more strength but he has that good footwork to be successful in the post.
Burke has been ice cold. He's missing everything, a lot of wide open shots just not falling for him. He's compounded that by taking forced shots as well. I think he is pressing pretty badly. I don't see the speed factor being an issue for him, he's gotten to the lane pretty easily in the games I watched. His kick out passes to wide open shooters were missed consistently. His big men didn't really run the pick and roll well and left him with few options when he was in the lane. Burke's biggest lesson this week will be not letting missed shots take away from the other aspects of his game. I think he looked a little shaken that shots weren't falling and felt pressure to try and show he can make those shots, which he did with regularity in college.
Adams played to his strengths. He doesn't have much of an offensive game yet so he doesn't try to force the issue. Yes it would be nice to see a little more aggression from him offensively but it's also a positive quality that he doesn't take bad shots that he can't make. He's developing at this stage of his career. He's a project and the Thunder selected him for his upside, have to wait a long time to judge Adams. I liked his defensive effort and rebounding. He was pretty solid throughout the week.
MCW was ok this week. He showed flashes of brilliance and flashes of the problems he had in college. Most people know he has to improve his shooting and limit his turnovers, and the summer league was more of the same. He had some nice counting stat lines but the turnovers and shooting percentages won't allow him to stay on the court long enough to produce counting stats.