share

AFTER RESEARCH ...HOLIDAY DIDNT PLAY PG IN HIGHSCHOOL....OVERRATED

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
AFTER RESEARCH ...HOLIDAY DIDNT PLAY PG IN HIGHSCHOOL....OVERRATED

after doing some reading research and asking peopel who have actually seen him play in hs i found out that holiday never played pg in highschool...therefore i dont see what some posters on here are talking about when they said his numbers were so low at ucla because he was out of position when in actuallity in was playing a position he played in highschool...i also found out that he played just as much pg in highschool as he played at ucla with the same mixed results...so like i said weeks ago this guy is overrated as far as people saying he will be a allstar pg because he hasnt even proved he can even play the point guard full time. all i hear is workouts against his shadow and three on 2 drills( where the two guys playing defense are trainers)...people on here need to stop rating some of these players off of what other peopel say and more on what they have seen ( rubio,holiday)


Hale
Hale's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/08/2009
Posts: 5956
Points: 12846
Offline
Wow, that is very

Wow, that is very interesting. I think that is a head turner.

Eric_Guilleminault
Registered User
Joined: 06/13/2008
Posts: 47
Points: 43
Offline
Holliday Hype?

If you think that Holliday is deserving of the 4th pick that is fine (I do not).  But going into college he was not viewed as the best incoming Freshman at the PG position (the player that was is Brandon Jennings).  He is now competing to be a top 4 player from any position and from many countries.

After the worst season for UCLA in the last 4 years and a So/so season from Holliday ESPN starts writting articles suggesting that he is coveted as the 4th pick and put it in their mock draft.

hmm...  Where is he training at: IMG facility in Florida.  Who runs the basketball at IMG in Florida: David Thorpe  

Who works for ESPN: David Thorpe

Who is suggesting he is a top 4 pick an ESPN writter

It may be that because of his inside information that that he is able to better analyse this player and suggest his true value is at 4.

Or he could be helping a colleague out by suggesting that a player is wanted abnormally higher than his true talent suggest.  If ESPN changes their mock closer to the draft and Holliday is in the top 8 then you draw your own conclusions.

In any case Holliday may very well be the 4th best talent in the draft, however at the moment I am not sure that the 4th pick hype passes the smell test.

xbadgerhustler
Registered User
Joined: 05/27/2009
Posts: 1960
Points: 680
Offline
That's interesting actually.

That's interesting actually. Who else has trained at IMG this year and who else trained their in past years? because maybe that's just what the high draft picks do.

draft express has also written alot about GMs wanting Holiday so maybe the GMs are really liking him

bonishswhs
Registered User
Joined: 06/23/2008
Posts: 60
Points: 28
Offline
I completely agree

I've been saying the same. I dont understand why he's been getting so much hype lately. I don't like the westbrook comparison either cuz he's not like Westbrook, who actually played some PG at UCLA and who can jump out of the building. Holiday should definitly not be a lottery pick, if anything, mid-late first round.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
and the only reason some

and the only reason some people even say that is because hes hyped up...i say look at it like this..take the names off the back of all these players jerseys or what you have heard about them in college or highschool then just watch each of them play a season or ,more in some cases, and then pick the top 28 players just on what you have seen..i bet you dont pick holiday

Hale
Hale's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/08/2009
Posts: 5956
Points: 12846
Offline
That is a great point. I

That is a great point. I think if you do that with DeRozan (although I am a huge fan of him) he would be longer as well.

gatorheels
gatorheels's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/25/2009
Posts: 3232
Points: 1493
Offline
You guys forget how young

You guys forget how young Holiday is. He still isn't done growing as a player. His body and skills will continue to develop. I saw him play in high school and in college. He played some point guard in high school at times, I saw it with my own eyes. He dominated in high school. I'm telling you UCLA held him back some because they had more experience players not to mention a very boring slow offense. He didn't dominate in college because UCLA was loaded with seniors. He didn't have to have all the attention which shows he is a great team player. Holiday is the best defensive guard in the draft plus he is the biggest point guard. Very versatile player who is worthy of a lottery pick. Has solid shooting and athletic ability. Put Holiday in an uptempo offense in the nba and he will shine.

auber
auber's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/13/2008
Posts: 789
Points: 63
Offline
I don't think he's

I don't think he's overrated. More so over Hyped. UCLA limits your stats at the college level so you couldn't expect to much out of him. He's an intriguing player and I have him going 9th overall to Toronto, but I don't buy him going any higher than that. Especially if Derozan Drops.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
the thing is..its

the thing is..its highscool..most of the teams he played against the guards or even the team wont even be division 2 stars..the real test was in college..i know plenty of players dominate in higshschool..it actually not that hard if u are semi talented especially if youre taller..at 6'4 sg in higshcool hes as tall as most pf and centers...if all you can play is in one tempo then you will have afrustrating career especially since the ucla system is what most nba teams run..and not only didnt he dominate he looked like a regular player...what does he do thats so intruiging?.....like i said take away the name and what he did in highschool then watch his game at ucla and do the same with every other player and then tell me where u would draft him

Hale
Hale's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/08/2009
Posts: 5956
Points: 12846
Offline
gatorheels

Every top prospect dominated high school, thats why he went to UCLA. Auber-I agree completely. I don't know if he overrated but he is overhyped.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
youre right..overhyped is a

youre right..overhyped is a better word

phsports
Registered User
Joined: 06/03/2009
Posts: 21
Points: 2
Offline
completely overhyped

Holiday is the classic upside pick that bad teams regret less than three years later. He could become a great defensive stopper, and has a better chance to become an impact player if he's selected by a playoff team.

The fact that he lacks a consistent offensive game should eliminate him from top ten consideration.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
gatorheels

also even though he had seniors with experience it didnt matter because those same seniors werent that good..i could see if it was seniors with good nba prospects but they werent and ucla could have used a scorer and holiday couldnt provide that on a team lacking scorers

Legend
Registered User
Joined: 04/25/2009
Posts: 30
Points: 28
Offline
holiday is not westbrook

I think the reason holiday has been shooting up the boards is because people think he is a westbrook clone. He is the same size, went to the same school, and has a similar skill set. He plays great d but is not quite as explosive as westbrook. People are looking at westbrook and how successfull he was as a rookie and automatically thinking holiday can do it too. The fact is holiday probably will never be as good as westbrook and he needs to prove to everyone he can run the point like westbrook could.

gatorheels
gatorheels's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/25/2009
Posts: 3232
Points: 1493
Offline
Shipp, Collison, and Aboya

Shipp, Collison, and Aboya were pretty good seniors. They were members of several final 4 teams. No freshman in the country would have come in and completely taken over that UCLA team. I'm telling you, you have to understand the system Holiday was playing in. Holidays game is better suited for the NBA. UCLA does limit your stats Auber that is exactly right....Holiday still managed to average 9pts 4rebs 4assists. Those are solid numbers for a freshman guard who wasn't even asked to do much. If Collison wasn't on that team Holiday would have had more impressive stats. How could you possibly take Maynor, Lawson, Mills, Teague over Holiday???? That is why a team who needs a point guard will take him in the lottery. Looking back a couple years from now I promise you Holiday will be one of the best 14 players in this draft easy.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
because holiday hasnt shown

because holiday hasnt shown me he can play the pg in the nba..im a person that believes once im shown..and yeah he wasnt asked to take over the whole season but he didnt take over one game or even a half of a game..and the seniors were alright ..but they couldnt put up points either..there were many games that the team needed a scorer and no one includeding holiday delivered so yeah he was asked to score sometimes but couldnt...like i said before you can tell me till youre blue in the face about what you think a player can do or evenually will do but if i watch the player play and dont see them show it for even a game then how am i suppossed to believe the player can do it?...not one team is thinking about drafting him on what he can do but what they THINK he might be able to do in the future because of his height and length..which leaves for a very high bust factor

gatorheels
gatorheels's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/25/2009
Posts: 3232
Points: 1493
Offline
I see your point but....what

I see your point but....what would make a team take a player like Maynor, Lawson, Mills, or Teague over Holiday??? That is why Holiday is a lottery pick. He is simply better than those other guys.

ghostface
Registered User
Joined: 05/27/2009
Posts: 56
Points: 11
Offline
"What would make a team take

"What would make a team take Maynor, Lawson, Mills, or Teague." Because they are all better than Jru Holiday. They are better shooters, better ball handlers, and they don't look lost on offense. The only advantage Holiday has over them is his height. A solid bench player who plays defense should be taken in the lottery?

I didn't know Holiday played a lot of shooting guard in high school. Apparently NBA scouts don't either.

Hale
Hale's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/08/2009
Posts: 5956
Points: 12846
Offline
I think Teague could be

I think Teague could be better then Holiday easy.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
but what has he proved that

but what has he proved that hes better..id take them over him..id take alot of other players over him because he hasnt showed me anything...and most people would take him because of the hype that writers or other people have said about him..its the same with rubio..very few have seen him play( ive seen 9 of his games in 2 years in person)..but they still say hes for sure gonna be a star as soon as he steps on the floor but at least with rubio he has shown games where if it comes all together he will be a star..holiday just hasnt shown me that on top of he hasnt played pg full time on any level..the nba is a very hard place to start learning it..and like the guy earlier said alot of people are comparing him to westbrook but they arent really that compareable other then they went to ucla and there height...i would love to say i think holiday is gonna be this or that if he showed me at least one game or even one half when he took over in any aspect weather its steals blocks points assist lock down d on a draft pick..but ive seen none of that..they only thing some people have pointed out is 1..the ucla system held him back( they run what most nba teams run) 2. he needs to be on a fast break team( if the only way to show you can be very good is being on a fast break team youre in trouble) 3. he had dc on his team( if youre good you can still show potenial with other good players on youre team or in youre back court) and my favorite. hes dominating in workouts( has anyone ever been or participated in the combine or workout..i have... and i must say its not the type of competitive atmosphere you would think...you arent be guarded by anyone and if you are its by a trainer whos usually about 5-9 and hasnt played competitive basketball since jr high so pretty much if youre good and making shoots with no defense and handling the ball with no pressure and can run around cones fast enough then on top of that be hyped up you can get picked pretty high ......i said almost the same thing about julian wright a couple years ago when people talked abotu how great his workouts were

auber
auber's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/13/2008
Posts: 789
Points: 63
Offline
Is it to farfetched to think

Is it to farfetched to think he would have done a 16-6-6 in a starting role at UCLA? The potential's there and I think taking him outside of the top ten is worth the risk. I have him going 9th and I think that's reasonable for him. Don't forget he was the number 2 ranked player coming out of HS according to Rivals.com.

JNixon
JNixon's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/14/2009
Posts: 12962
Points: 11537
Offline
Overhyped and overrated are

Overhyped and overrated are the same thing. I have always thought he was way overrated, he is going to be a big disappointment for whoever drafts him

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
i cant really jump on a

i cant really jump on a players bandwagon because of highschool since the competition is like playing at some local y...the comp steps up considerably thats why alot of players can do in college what they did in highschool.and holiday did start at ucla..had alot of minutes too and didnt dominate one game...

xbadgerhustler
Registered User
Joined: 05/27/2009
Posts: 1960
Points: 680
Offline
back at it again!

lol josh/whatever your name is, back at the holiday hating!

If Holiday would have played at my high school he probably would have played center.... hahaha he'd have been like an inch taller than our tallest guy. I think he proved in high school that he could score if the ball was in his hands... he has to get in a rhythm to be hitting- and that he can make good decisions with the ball even if he wasn't the "PG" on the team.

I'd definitely also agree with the 'overhyped' comment, not necessarily overrated. I don't think there are really any all-stars in this year's PG class but I think that Jrue will be a very solid rotation guy, if not a starting PG. I'm excited to see where he lands and how he handles the PG role. He's not westbrook but i think he'll do well.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
lol..you know it...but naw i

lol..you know it...but naw i wouldnt say hating but i cant just bite my tounge on the way this guy is being hyped..its liek if you hear about how good this kid is while playing in some church leauge then he plays in a competitive leauge and he doesnt show you anything but yet people keep saying how great he did in the church leauge aginst players who werent as tall or if they were .werent as fast..you say something too...im even less convinced after learning that he played pg just as much as he played at ucla..which means shooting guard wasnt new to him( also i should have thought this from the beginning because every star highschool guard plays alot of shooting guard in highschool so it shouldnt be a stretch for them to play sg in college)

xbadgerhustler
Registered User
Joined: 05/27/2009
Posts: 1960
Points: 680
Offline
josh,

i actually have no idea about what i'm going to ask you, but i'd really like to know the answer... i'd look but i need to study and i've been wastin way too much time here lately.

how did Jrue do against his peers in all-star games? I'd like to know how he stacked up against guys like jennings in those games and if he played PG.

Josh, your point that he didn't play PG in HS still doesn't prove that Holiday can't play PG... part of drafting a player is being able to see how their game translates into the future. Apparently, a LOT of people, who have been doing this for a long time, think that he will be a solid if not above average PG in the NBA. If he does nothing else, he'll be able to bring the ball up the court and he'll serve as a guy who play good defense.

gatorheels
gatorheels's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/25/2009
Posts: 3232
Points: 1493
Offline
He is a freshman people.

He is a freshman people. The nba drafts on potential. He has shown enough to be drafted in the lottery. Holiday can play in a slow offense, he just won't score much. Just because he isn't scoring doesn't mean that he isn't impacting the game. You have to look at the other things he does well like defense, rebounding, assists, low turnovers. What other point guard in the draft can play defense and rebound like Holiday....none. He is a rare specimen. Once he improves his shooting and gets a little stronger....lookout he could be a star. Holiday is a great team player who can blend in with just about any team.

butidonthavemoney
butidonthavemoney's picture
Registered User
Joined: 02/26/2009
Posts: 6173
Points: 9840
Offline
Holiday

I agree that he has bust written all over him, but he has the tools (work ethic, unselfishness, defensive mentality) to get to the top.

I'm also starting to think the Jennings is another likely bust. What if Mullins went overseas last season? Would he still be considered a lottery pick after putting up bad numbers? What are your thoughts josh huestis?

I'm starting to warm up to Flynn. He is my second favorite point guard in this draft.

butidonthavemoney
butidonthavemoney's picture
Registered User
Joined: 02/26/2009
Posts: 6173
Points: 9840
Offline
Nike Hoop Summit

I saw him play in person at the Nike Hoops Summit a few years back and he played point guard. I don't remember his stats but I think he had the game-high for assists.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
when i talk about player si

when i talk about player si look at all that..he avg 3 ast ast to turnover ratio was 1.75ast to 1 he averaged 3 rebs a game now i dont know what other pg or shooting guards( thats what he played) averaged but imma check it out and see if youre statement about what other pgs can do that and then ill get back to you..(and im sure the other pgs will be shorter)...and xbadger..you know ( at least i hope you do) as well as i do that there is no defense played in allstar games ...and if you see he could be a star gator then just about anyone who showed more potential then he did could be a star...if thats the case there could be manyyyyyyyyyyyyy stars

knicksfreak
knicksfreak's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 1409
Points: 244
Offline
He was 6'3" in high school.

He was 6'3" in high school. Most likely making him the bigger guard. His team probably had a short speedy handler playing the point. Everyone has to remember that Holiday is almost a clone of Westbrook who did not shine either at UCLA playing the 2. Everyone on this site seems to love Westbrook.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
hes no westbrook clone...the

hes no westbrook clone...the only reason people even make comparisions is because they both are around the same height and played at ucla...i seen both of them play at ucla and his game is not like westbrooks and vice versa..most people who even say that heard others say it so they decided to say it...it also doesnt matter if he had small pg on his hs team( which he actually didnt).if he was the better pg then he would be the pg...jason kidd had a pretty good pg on his highschool team but he was the better pg by far so he played the pg

xbadgerhustler
Registered User
Joined: 05/27/2009
Posts: 1960
Points: 680
Offline
josh,

the point of seeing how he competed is because he probably played PG... and against at least a little better competition.

gatorheels
gatorheels's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/25/2009
Posts: 3232
Points: 1493
Offline
I'll be the first to admit

I'll be the first to admit it...I thought the Thunder made a big mistake by drafting Westbrook last year at the 4th spot.

Actually Maynor, Lawson, and Flynn have very impressive stats from college. The only thing is Holiday is so young. It really comes down to if a team whats a polished player or a young player with high potential that they have time to develop.

I like Maynor, Lawson, and Flynn as players.... I would just take Holiday over all three of them if I were drafting for a team.

xbadgerhustler
Registered User
Joined: 05/27/2009
Posts: 1960
Points: 680
Offline
andddd

i forgot to mention, you're always looking for glimpses of his potential

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
yeah i just looked it up and

yeah i just looked it up and alot of pgs had better stats...and he is younger but he isnt THAT much younger then som eof the other pgs...in the end no one knows how good a player is gonna be..my thing is before i am gonna say what a player is gonna be i have to see him play and then have him show me something in games that will make me conclude that that player will be special..and when i said dominate it didnt mean just pts..it ment any catagory..and he didnt dominate in anything last season so i just cant buy into holiday...im just a show me person and then i use the rule that i said earlier ( IF I NEVER HEARD OF ANY OF THE PLAYERS AND THEN WATCHED THEM PLAY WHO WOULD I DRAFT WHERE)

knicksfreak
knicksfreak's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 1409
Points: 244
Offline
Do you even watch UCLA?

Do you even watch UCLA? Holiday plays alot like Westbrook along with being very similar physically. He is shooting up the draft boards just like Westbrook did also. Anyways coaches find a way to put their best players on the court together. He was good enough to start as a Freshman at UCLA.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
yes i did..hes isnt the

yes i did..hes isnt the athlete didnt make the same decisions and didnt lock down any future draft pick like west brook did..and he didnt score when needed like westbrook..nor had nearly as many double figure scoreing games as westbrook..so how do they compare besides the school they went to and height?..even when draft express did the breakdown of the 2 players they didnt compare

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
he also had less double

he also had less double diget games by far and only scored more than 15 once and that was against florida international...with a less talented team

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
and someone made a point

and someone made a point about well if the sites have him so high he must be good or something along those lines...in reality look at all the drafts and ask youre friends who know about basketball and watch it and for the most part ypull see that you all have picked within 85-95 percent of what the nba teams pick as far as around where a player is draftedm so im not buying that arguement

knicksfreak
knicksfreak's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 1409
Points: 244
Offline
UCLA as a team didnt score

UCLA as a team didnt score as many points as they did last year. UCLA had a rough season and Collison and Shipp hogged the ball. Players on bad teams tend to frorce shots and play out of their element. He needs to be a leader on a team. I also compare him to Westbrook because they both fill up the stat sheets without doing anything exceptional on offense while being solid defenders. I think he can be very strong on the right NBA team.

QHaynes123
Registered User
Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 814
Points: -173
Offline
I may move him down but no

I may move him down but no too much...I Think he could be a D-wade type player (D-wade played PG in his 1st season)

IM NOT SAYING HE WILL BE D-WADE 2.0, im saying whoever takes him could play him at the 1 and maybe if it doesnt work...he could play the 2

The thing i like about him is Defense.......He could be a good Defense player early and the Offensive game could come later

xbadgerhustler
Registered User
Joined: 05/27/2009
Posts: 1960
Points: 680
Offline
ghostface

"A solid bench player who plays defense should be taken in the lottery?"

i don't think there are very many guys with very high ceilings in this draft, so you just have to take what you can get. and he's AT MINIMUM, I believe, RIGHT AWAY a solid bench player who plays defense.

He has Size, Handle, Passing, and Defense...I donno, how many can PGs in this draft can you say that about?

rubio? defense...
flynn? size
lawson? size
Curry? i'd probably take him over jrue but i'm not sure about his defense yet. i'd still take him over jrue
maynor? size
Evans? I'd take him over Jrue, he and curry's strengths are not their PG abilities though
Jennings? size?

and I hate when people say that size doesn't matter because chris paul and nate robinson did it.... Chris Paul is out of this World, he is a FREAK, none of these guys are CP3 and Nate... well he just shouldn't be in the same conversation with CP3 but he won the dunk contest against the hottest player in the game DWIGHT!

QHaynes123
Registered User
Joined: 04/03/2009
Posts: 814
Points: -173
Offline
I agree but everyone will

I agree but everyone will still say " He never played PG in college" I like Holiday...if i sac, i would take him at 4 but I think, alot of teams will shy away from him

llperez
llperez's picture
Registered User
Joined: 04/13/2009
Posts: 11980
Points: 12014
Offline
my opinion

I've been one of the bigger Holiday supporters on here. I have him going 7th in my mock. As a UCLA fan, I watched all of his games this last year, and yes, he was a little on the dissapointing end. However he has the whole package. I keep hearing people say that he has not taken over games thus he has not shown it on the court. But I look at his potential more in terms of plays I saw him make that you can't teach that lead me to believe he can be a very good player at the next level. I don't think anyone is gonna argue his size, speed, and athleticism as a pg. I've seen him grab the defensive rebound and push it himself and make great plays in the open court. I've seen him cross guys over and get into the lane or pull up and shoot it in their face. I've seen him catch the ball in traffic around the hoop, and instead of throwing up some weak floater, he hangs and finishes with an acrobatic lay up or dunk.

There is nothing about his game that screams glaring weakness. So while he maybe a risk, I would consider him top 10 in this draft based on potential. Keep in mind that Westbrook only averaged like 2 pts a game his freshman year.

gatorheels
gatorheels's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/25/2009
Posts: 3232
Points: 1493
Offline
Well said llperez. There is

Well said llperez. There is nothing that screams weakness...that is exactly right.

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
its tru but there also isnt

its tru but there also isnt anything that screams superstar or star..i see alot of things that scream role player off the bench..ive also seen many guys cross people up and grab rebounds and make very nice plays..my whole point is he hasnt shown anything to scream that he will be better then a average player

xbadgerhustler
Registered User
Joined: 05/27/2009
Posts: 1960
Points: 680
Offline
we get it. there aren't many

we get it. there aren't many stars in this draft... you act like because he hasnt ever shown you that he can be a star that he is incapable

Stanford hoops
Registered User
Joined: 04/15/2009
Posts: 1541
Points: -76
Offline
no everyone who is in the

no everyone who is in the draft is capable of being good or a bust..the chances of what they are gonna be goes up or down by how they performed on top of what they have shown (against competition)you that will indicate what they will be in the future

xbadgerhustler
Registered User
Joined: 05/27/2009
Posts: 1960
Points: 680
Offline
how can you say not everyone

how can you say not everyone in this draft is capable of being good or a bust? isn't that the point of the draft.

RSS: Syndicate content